a well made OLD ... point to point ... guitar amp or LA2 is well worth some luv and care by an experienced tech

there is good OLD
there is good NEW
and
then there is just plain BAD

you still have to search out which is which

My biggest problem is, I am the most "vintage" thing in my "studio." And the jury is still out on my intrinsic value. If things get better with age I must be approaching magnificent.

I just like the old stuff cause it has super professional rockin' tube sound. :lol:

But honestly, I just respect the quality of gear more than new or old or super high tech.

I remember when I was on the road with this band from Philly. The twin lead singers had an old world Italian father who used to lecture us that there was nothing "modern" that could sound as good as a Victrola!!!
Even back then (1975), there were folks looking back at the audio gear from previous decades and lusting for days-gone-by. I guess that it's all relative, eh?
When I really think about it, though, SOME of the mixing boards from the 70's and 80's had a better build quality and HEADROOM than those made now. And my old Yamaha P2201 power amp has more balls and stamina than anything Adcom puts out these days. On the other hand, gear these days tends to be quieter, with more extended low end and top end reproduction. Recording mediums are less maintenance-intensive, have fewer (if any) moving parts, don't generate the same levels of heat and therefore are less prone to breakdowns.
What pisses me off is on the guitar market. Guitars made by many of the manufacturers-Gibson, Fender, Martin, to be specific- had really bad QC issues during the late 60's, through the 80's. Players HATED these instruments during this period, and the Japanese learned t capitalize on this fault. But these days, the same crappy guitars that we hated back then are bringing in BIG bucks and everyone under 30 thinks they're great!!! "Vintage"? I think not... :lol:

I've been around electronics for a long, long time and have installed, purchased and sold 10's of thousands of dollars worth of audio and video equipment over my lifetime....been doing it since I was probably 9 or 10.
I currently have some of the latest audio and video technology made on planet earth!....computers, HDTV's, amplifiers, microphones, keyboards, mixers, speakers, game consoles, DVR's.
I have a record lathe from the 1930's, tube radio's from 40's, tape machines, effects boxes from the 60's and 70's and 80's. None of those "vintage" pieces have any value other than there intrinsic oddity of age and interest as antique's...
There is nothing made years ago that is better than what is being designed and built today...the only value most vintage equipment has is in the ear of the beholder and this has always been the way things are....people continue to purchase tube amps because they like the "warm tones" they hear...that's a personal choice and I have no problem with it.....have at it if it turns your crank...yes it sounds cool but it's old technology....it's interesting ya, it's quirky, it's noisy, low headroom....I can go on and on...
Every piece of significant electronics technology being made today is literally years ahead of any piece of electronics that was manufactured or built before it! Anyone who thinks differently is just fooling themselves....
The quality of "autobot" manufacturing is far superior to any point to point wiring by hand (if point to point could ever even be possible with today's higher tolerance and quality SM components and multi-layered circuit boards)....I've gotten rid of older equipment because there has always been something newer and better built coming out....not in terms of "ear" but in terms of specifications....If you like old vintage stuff then fine....but don't be fooled into thinking it's better....it's not...it's just is what it is!

I loooove this topic. I'm with Dave and Moonbaby all the way. You either have to be young or have done a lot of recreational medication back in the old days to have a romantic view of the gear back then.

First, we have so much more precision technology now that it is much easier to produce better gear than was produced in the 60s and 70s. In addition, "old" doesn't improve electronic components - it makes them worse. (Are there exceptions to that rule? I can't think of any. I'm not talking about a week of "break in." I'm talking 20 years.) So good quality new is better than good quality old.

Another big point. This stuff ain't rocket brain science surgery. We are talking about (pubic domain) circuits that are descended from the 1930 RCA tube catalog and are in every elementary college electronics text. There are no secrets here. Its not like the guy at the five star Italian restaurant knows some secret that the guy at Olive garden doesn't. It's just execution and quality control.

And again - QC in the 60's and 70's sucked. Read . Fender: The Sound Heard Round The World The best part is the evaluation of Fender by consultants hired by CBS before they bought the company. It is just dead on. Tells CBS the things that a big, well funded corporation could bring to an out fit like Fender that had great products but was having trouble meeting increasing demand. Of course CBS ignored the advice, still bought Fender, ran it into the ground (while making some great products). Another generation of executives sold off the company at a paper loss after the profits had been milked.

[N.B.] As a Phillies fan I must say that CBS did the same thing with the Yankees. We will see how good the Yankees product is tomorrow night.

Watching the World Series in High Definition is something that has to be seen to believe!

Which is exactly the type of advancement we experience everyday in our world today!

I'm laughing just thinking about the 27" TV I watched the World Series on last year....that TV is sitting in my backroom collecting dust now!

But then maybe the speakers and picture on that CRT would give me a warmer tone......Hehe

New and original artistic content is a function of new and innovative use of new technology...

Don't be afraid, engage these tools and make them work for you!!

I too have been in electronics and equipment building for a very long time

the high tech auto bot can make some good stuff ... IF
it has been set up to do so
but much of these systems are set to make more profit than quality

digital circuits do suit the auto bots but many of the simple tube circuits and analog PCB do not suit auto-routers

some modern gear can be modified and improved

I did not say that modern high tech circuits are not better than stuff of the past
IN FACT much of the past is worth leaving there

Some of the past is worth keeping and in the hands of an experienced tech,
can be made to live long in to the future.

While people still use a Fender Stratocaster and a Champ or Princetone or similar
then there will be many old units worth keeping
Point to point offers an excellent platform for mods and asjustments as components get harder to get

Mics and Micpres and some dynamics and EQ units
and specialized hand built Monitoring as chosen by Mastering Engineers
will continue to be sort after

Digital will see the end to much of the old stuff and is why I have chosen to sell my large format console and tape deck
.... I do still miss some of the tones I could get with the tape deck

the future is always coming but don't throw out the gems of the past IF they still continue to serve well

finding the old stuff that is worth the efforts ... and at a price in keeping with the results
is the point

Very well put, Kev.

"None of those "vintage" pieces have any value other than there intrinsic oddity of age and interest as antique's... "

How's your Mother doing?

My Mom passed away last year (Alzheimers) she was 86!

Mine too...

Kicking everything to the curb simply because it is old is the same mentality behind most people getting divorced :)

That said, we would not enjoy the level of clarity in recording had we not been through what we should call, the Les Paul age.

What we call it instead is, the digital age.

It is as anonymous as the players that profess to be as great as the real great ones and as forgetful as the child is to the teaching hand of the Parent(s).

Space:
Like I said in my comments I have some "antique" equipment that I've kept but I really don't use it anymore....I have better equipment now....just replacing caps and belts...while fun and enjoyable doesn't make sense any more for day to day usage and so they become conversation pieces that people look at and find interesting.
I think your analogy to family members (and in my case ex-wife) is interesting and somewhat humorous.....doesn't really apply to electronics ("stuff" ) in this topic....but maybe you have issues with people who get bored easily and then trade in their things for newer models...
Some people like nostalgic things in their life and never let go of the past...others like myself embrace new things and the change it brings and seize the opportunity it inevitably brings.....
I love watching the World Series right now on my digital age HDTV and don't know how I could ever go back to watching a tube TV set....just like I can't see recording sound on magnetic tape!
I must admit I don't play guitar so I'm not involved with tube amps but I am well aware of the fervor associated with guitar players and the excitement surrounding tubular vacuums!
I also have good friends who love there tube preamps and receivers and I would never attempt to try and talk them out of their insanity....

"(and in my case ex-wife)"

Dumb ass...your Mother is your ex-wife...your just spilling paint you bone head.

Aww come on...

Its a viable question and subject.

And DJ has his point and makes it well.

You, on the other hand, should simply state your case rather than flog others for theirs.

I know you have an opinion on this and simply stating that is your choice.....but being antisocial and shitty to others is BS.....don U thin??

Did the man not say in one post his Mother and in another his ex-wife..?

It isn't for me to keep up with that.

Wow Space?
I guess you do have issues...
not sure why you have to attack me with dumb ass comments...or calling me a bonehead...
I've never kicked any person in my life to the curb.... that's includes my mom and my ex-wife...I thought we were talking about electronics here?
so I guess I don't know what your all pissed off about... doesn't really have anything to do with this topic....
Maybe you should seek professional help and have them help you with making negative and twisted comments on forums like this...what's up with that
Is this something you enjoy doing?
Must be something??? I don't get what your deal is?!

You brought in your ex-wife, not me.

I used an analogy about old things that most people our age would understand...parents.

You guys can push this whichever way you want.

Fact is, I don't know how to fit your ex-wife into this conversation.

I know how to do that with our Mothers(God that you believe in rest thier souls).

I can only guess that as most times, I am ahead of the curve in these types of black and white topics.

That said, I will remove myself from it. As these things tend to get more obtuse as time goes on, and time seems to be running in short order.

hey Space
still looking for your "ahead of the curve" type comment from you on this actual topic?
At least enlighten us with some words of wisdom on the old versus new electronics?
Maybe we can leave our mom's out of it?!
and just for the record "I'm sorry for your loss"
and God bless them both!

the analogy of analog TV and Digital TV only holds for the audio side of things

the picture ... and this includes Film .. is frame based so in a sense even analog TV is digital

the fact that you have seen HDTV and don't want to go back
well
I think your HDTV in the US may be MPEG4 based
IF
you were lucky enough to see the UNcompressed images as it leaves the camera the Broadcast HDTV may seem second rate

When CDaudio was released it was going to spell the death of analog.

this has been discussed to death for years

it may all come down to a point of view

An ancient camera on film can make an artistic image that may be sort after
...
if you want to repeat that image
you either get the old gear
OR
try to work out how to get the new gear to make an image like this

audio and music making can be like this
it is not about truth but a presentation of art

use what ever it takes

Davedog wrote: Why would anyone , with todays plethora of high-tech high-end manufacturing techniques and quality contol done by autobots, want anything old and possibly a liability in their studio?

Thats the question children. Step up and say what ya mean.

Oh what the hell... I'll put a dog in this fight.

Lemme toss a coupla' caveat's first...

1) Good shit ain't cheap.
2) Cheap shit ain't always good.

You can't make a blanket statement like that and not have to account for the quality of the craftsmanship.

Would you REALLY rather have a Hansringer console instead of a Legacy? A Smackie instead of an 8088??

A Fathead is in no way comparable to a 77DX... period.

So, you have to talk apples to apples when you get into this discussion.

As far as liabilities... the plethora of cheap quality modern gear is more of a liability than high quality vintage gear.

While the "QC" may be better in more modern gear, the lack of quality of the engineering, and components is more than enough to make for an inferior end product... especially in CPU based gear.

I just don't see as many well built power supplies, knobs, meters or even chassis anymore from the mass manufactures. It's all about the Wally World mentality of cheaper is better than quality.

I'll take a rack full of vintage V72's over a rack full of OctoPre's. Then again, I'd rather have a rack full of 3124's or GML's over a rack of Digi's pre's.

Whether new or old, there are better quality built pieces that rise above the rest in terms of sonic quality, reliability or both. THAT is what you are after if you are interested in obtaining to improve your end product in the craft of recording.

I think there is a "survival of the fittest" aspect that colors our perspective on old gear. In every era there is good gear and bad. The bad gear ends up in the trash. The good gear tends to get saved, cared for, and repaired when it breaks. This is pretty much independent of whether the gear was expensive or cheap when it was made. After a while the only stuff around from the old days is great stuff. With new stuff we see both the good and the bad. We throw the bad stuff away so that in 2029 people will rave on about what great gear they had back in 2009.

that about sums it up Bob

an interestng thing would be to try to pick the Classics of 2009 ... NOW

perhaps not 2009 but things like Brick and Distressor and something from CraneSong
could be long term classics

BUT here could be a rub
IF there where to be a Digital Audio format change from PCM to DSD (or similar)
it COULD render a lot of equipment out of the loop

keep buying Mics and Mic-pres and save as much money as possible to get a monitoring system as good as you can afford
and this does include headphones and cues

I'm glad to see things have settled down on what SHOULD be a fun and interesting discussion. I'd hate to see something bad happen to this thread. (Like shutting it DOWN?!?! ;-)

For the record, I have no idea what those two knuckleheads were arguing about (talk about poorly written stuff), but I promise you I'll end this thread if it flares up again. Take your baby rattles and make noise elsewhere, kids. This is a civil discussion for GROWNUPS.

Now, where were we....oh yes, a discussion about vintage gear. 8) DaveDog makes a most excellent point in starting this thread in the first place.

For anyone who's never worked entirely in the analog domain (as some of us have, "Back in the day" - REALLY back in the day), it's a different world with digital. The temptation for those who haven't, of course, is to look back on all that analog gear and think just because it's analog it's somehow better; fatter, warmer, deeper, whatever. Maybe you feel like you've missed the party?

It ain't necessarily so, but it there WERE some good things about it all, as many know. Listen to anything that was recorded, mixed and edited before 1985 or so, and see what I mean. That WAS a party, in a sense.

Unreliability is a very good point; maintenance was always critical.
A well made unit back then was just as important as the tools are today. There just wasn't the same kind of automated manufacturing, and BOY there were a lot less choices of mics and other gear. A lot of it was built by hand for a very niche market. Sears (Slivertone) consumer 1/4 track tape machines were a whole lot less reliable than professional Ampex and Revox machines that pro's bought. It's no different today.

These days, I look at what I'm using now, and what it takes to keep it running vs. the old days, it's not even close. Aside from the care & feeding of analog tape machines (which I rarely use anymore anyway) and microphone TLC, there's not much else to do on the nuts and bolts side, other than make sure all the ins and outs work properly. (Mostly cables, interfaces, etc.)

I remember getting work in the early days as a maintenance tech in some studios, and it was a time-consuming, busy job. Taking a mainframe console apart was a bitch; often had to be done at night when no clients were around. Fixing an SSL's main module was not for the faint hearted. Ditto for patch bays, in-wall monitors, analog gear with bad pots and switches. Don't even get me started on Multitrack tape machines. On a GOOD day, we'd have an hour reserved ahead of a session to simply clean and align the machines with fresh tape and demagnetizing rituals. Spare I/O cards were a MUST-HAVE for any well-maintained machine. (When's the last time anyone paid a tech to "align" a protools rig or clean a hard drive?)

Of course, there's always something lost when embracing the new. I choose specific mics, placment, EQ and effects based on what I REMEMBER sounded good from the analog era. I realize that doesn't happen with some younger folks who've never worked with tape or vinyl, but it's just the way I am, having had one foot in each domain for my entire career now. (I still NEVER pan anything below 120 hz to one side or another. Call me crazy)

I'm NOT an audiophile/vinyl lover, but I have to admit: You still can't beat the fact that a vinyl disc will still play just anywhere, on any turntable (vs. dozens of other dead digital formats abandoned long ago: DAT, DigiCassette, ADAT, etc.) Ditto for most analog tape; put it up on most compatible machines, and you'll still get sound. Ever try to play a bad DAT, recorded on a marginal machine?

I love the fact that people are rediscoving Ribbon mic technology - shocking what little there actually IS inside the things; not much more than a magnet, a strip of thin aluminum and a tranfsormer. Ditto for any other vintage mic or preamp; they are the result of years of experimenting, listening, tweaking and TLC.

Not only do they sound great when working well (vintage mic's and pre's, that is), but you're really only "Parking" your money in a vintage piece of pro gear, assuming you take care of it. There's no risk in investing in these; no one's making these "NEW" again. (RCA is a brand-name only now, owned by NBC, soon to be owned by Comcast). Send your vintage 67's or 87's to Neumann and you're liable to get something rebuilt with modern parts.

You can't say that about the resale value of any of the new gear that's made and sold in the thousands. (I LOVE my AT 4050's, Fathead IIs, etc. They have paid for themselves over and over again, but they won't go for more than half their original value on Craigslist or Ebay...) Kev makes a good point about the "Classics of 2009." THey're out there, just gotta know where/what they are. (My vote goes with DPA 4006's and Grace m series pre's, but that's just me....)

I would never want to go back to analog-only, but I remember those days very well in indeed.

With money being no obstacle, I would not heistate to buy new old in many products such as a new 1176 or a new 1073 or new Vari-Mu or 251 clone, rather than take a chance on some older equalivant with unknown history.

But at the same time there is very old and maybe even fragile, marginally functional and rusted/crusted out gear such as an 1176, LA2A, 251 or C12, V72, RCA or Fairchild gear out there that is so special and magical in what it does to audio that I would prefer to have regradless of the price I had to pay in obtaining them again, assuming that money was no object.

AudioGaff wrote: With money being no obstacle, I would not heistate to buy new old in many products such as a new 1176 or a new 1073 or new Vari-Mu or 251 clone, rather than take a chance on some older equalivant with unknown history.

But at the same time there is very old and maybe even fragile, marginally functional and rusted/crusted out gear such as an 1176, LA2A, 251 or C12, V72, RCA or Fairchild gear out there that is so special and magical in what it does to audio that I would prefer to have regradless of the price I had to pay in obtaining them again, assuming that money was no object.

Good to see this off again(and running I hope)

Gaff is onehunnerd percent....as usual.

There are circuits, many of them old and unbalanced at this stage of life, that simply running a signal through them....not even engaging their use button that does something to the signal that you cant describe.

Its wonderful we live in a world that has recongnised these traits audio-wise such that the designs have been copied over and pver and in fact improved to a point.

Most people dont realize that the goal of the early gear designs wasnt 'warmth' or 'punch' or 'any catch-phrase in use today', but high-end clarity and fidelity.

We cant know what these ancient and pricey pieces actually sounded like when new. But as Gaff said, the things they do to a signal cant be replicated .

some of the old things are still make-able

ROHS will eventually mean the parts are no longer made or available

A T03 package 2055 as used in the Neve gear ... main output transistor
is hard to get ...
plenty of knock-off fakes but the real thing

TIP41 ... I think ... is a variant and used in the more modern GreatRiver unit
different package, similar but yes a different beast

If you can find the original parts then you can make the old things as they were intended