I caught this before sleepy time, but on first listen of the song ‘we came from space’- goddamn that singers got pipes. Great rasp. The guitars tones fit well. And the bass playing is nice and shreddy while being tasteful and appropriate. Nice work. I personally like a little more snare but that’s just me.

Fun stuff man, thanks for sharing. Looking forward to listening to the whole thing. I’ll purchase it to add to my Bandcamp collection next week. I love how unobtrusive the bandcamp player is, and the fact that they’ll let you have the full fidelity version.

It's a fun album to listen to, and if you're into prog, it's got a great musical and sonic vibe.
Dave did a fantastic job of using the space(s) they recorded in to their advantage. Truthfully, if you didn't know about some of the limitations they were dealing with, you probably wouldn't know by listening.

DonnyThompson, post: 457759, member: 46114 wrote: Truthfully, if you didn't know about some of the limitations they were dealing with, you probably wouldn't know by listening.

I couldn’t tell. It didn’t seem to have any limitations.

I’m curious about why the use of no samples? dvdhawk not implying it needed it, just wondering if it was a conscious choice from the get go, or if they just weren’t needed because everyone was happy, or maybe cuz they didn’t use samples in the 70’s?

Also curious if you guys mixed it in a professional setting?

Yeah thats fantabulous Dave , great album !.

Thanks guys!

Kyle, it was all tracked and mixed in less-than-ideal conditions. Everything was done in 3 typical residential spaces. (none of them mine) I'll be able to give you the full details about that later.

We felt we could get the drum sound we were after without augmenting or replacing them with samples. The drummer is a consumate pro and his kit was well tuned, so then it's just a battle against the limitations of the space they were tracked in.

Very nice Dave!.

Tony

Nice job Dave ! The songs are diverse and nicely produced !

Gentlemen, thank you very much!

There will be more details to come, but I will say it was all done in very ordinary places with reasonably affordable gear.

dvdhawk, post: 457786, member: 36047 wrote: Thanks guys!

Kyle, it was all tracked and mixed in less-than-ideal conditions. Everything was done in 3 typical residential spaces. (none of them mine) I'll be able to give you the full details about that later.

We felt we could get the drum sound we were after without augmenting or replacing them with samples. The drummer is a consumate pro and his kit was well tuned, so then it's just a battle against the limitations of the space they were tracked in.

i listened to the album a couple times, really cool, all the way thru. lol no stinkers. i have to say the toms on one of the songs (didnt catch the name) sound fucking sick, bar none. ive not gotten a tom sound that good, comercial studios/pro drummer, or otherwise.

Thanks Kyle. There's one song that's really tom driven during the verses, so I'm guessing that might be the one you mean.

kmetal

The drummer had several to choose from, he went with a well-tuned 6-pc. Tama kit.

Drum Mics:
We tried all the usual suspects in the kick drum port (AKG D112, A-T ATM25, Audix D6, E-V ND868, E-V PL20, Senn MD421, Shure Beta52a) and liked the Audix D6 best for our application.
We auditioned several snare mics (SM57, Heil PR22, Audix i5) and ended up going with the Beta57.
The three rack toms are all basic Sennheiser e604, and for the floor tom we ended up with an Audix D4 on it. It sounded HUGE with some of the others (D6, D12e, ND868), but the contrast between the third and fourth tom was too dramatic. The D4 gave it a good balance of impact and continuity with the other toms.
We employed an SM81 on the hi-hats, two AKG C451s in X/Y as overheads.

Tama was an interesting choice, i usually think of Grunge/90's drums when i think Tama. Those didn't exhibit that. Those e604s are damn good mics huh? no compromise just cuz their clip ons. you didnt use room mics? i actually thought i might be hearing a beta 91 on the kik in conjunction with something else. im not a fan of audix mics, whenever ive tried, but they seem to fit the bill perfectly in this case.

i was thinking about the Drum Toms on that song the other night when i couldn't sleep, and what made them special, and mine lackluster. it occurred to me the key word was Tuning. i noticed you had mentioned 'well tuned' which can almost be cliche in the vein of proper phase, good room, good song, yodda yodda. Then i remembered the session where i got a decent tom sound, that the drummer asked me if he could tune the drums, to which i replied 'yeah go for it'. there really is an art to it. some people just really have a knack for getting them to function as a unit, and im guessing that is a major contribution to what made those toms sound exceptional. Especially now, that you've cited the mics, which are all good, and relatively standard fare in a professional setting. this isnt to say the performance wasn't top notch, but rather that the finely tuned the drums are what im thinking put it over the top.

its interesting because tuning is a relatively mundane and standard process for most other instruments i can think of. usually its about remembering to check it every few takes. but drums are different, there's no real rules. i mean there's the basic tapping around and getting the lugs tensioned, and maybe you tunes them in minor thirds, or to the key of the song, but largely, its discretion. i personally always do my best with it, but i don't have a real set method, and its usually trial and error. im pretty good at snare's, but toms, always a weak point.
with samples, its just taken for granted, with pitch being the main thing you might mess with. but with an acoustic kit, the interaction between the drums, the room, and such, really is a skill.

it would be great if you, or the drummer, could elaborate more with regard to the tuning method and considerations you faced. it would certainly be eye opening to me, and im guessing plenty of others as well. i know many big league engineers cited hiring the "Drum Doctor" to tune up the kits for projects, and i think it was Sylvia Massey (also a drummer) who cited changing the heads every song or maybe even every few takes, on Danny Carey's (Tool) drums on their 'Undertow' album. DonnyThompson pcrecord do you guys have anything to add as far as drum tuning in general? methods? what you shoot for, or avoid? It really is one of things that can be rushed, or good enough'ed, in the heat of a session.

kmetal, post: 457857, member: 37533 wrote: i noticed you had mentioned 'well tuned' which can almost be cliche in the vein of proper phase, good room, good song, yodda yodda. Then i remembered the session where i got a decent tom sound, that the drummer asked me if he could tune the drums, to which i replied 'yeah go for it'. there really is an art to it. some people just really have a knack for getting them to function as a unit, and im guessing that is a major contribution to what made those toms sound exceptional. Especially now, that you've cited the mics, which are all good, and relatively standard fare in a professional setting. this isnt to say the performance wasn't top notch, but rather that the finely tuned the drums are what im thinking put it over the top.

The room the drums were recorded in was definitely NOT helping. The mics and pres were all very reasonably priced. There was no shortage of more expensive mics to choose from, but in a smallish room I think they would have done more harm than good.

You can put a 421 on just about anything, EQ it pretty drastically and usually still get a very musical result. The e604 on the other hand doesn't have that kind of range and flexibility, but what it does give you is that tom sound you're almost always looking for (if the drum sounds good to begin with). Some guys use them on snare too, but I think they're a bit dark for most snares.

Tama sells kits from $700 - $7000. I'm not saying his was the top of the line, but he's definitely not the kind of guy that would be shopping the bargain basement either. There was a nice 7-pc. Premier kit on a riser literally two feet away in the same room, a little Taye kit in the next room, and I know he's gigging with a Pearl kit these days. He probably thought the Tamas had the best heads and tuning for recording. The toms were all tuned very lively and with a bit more sustain than I personally would have liked - but nothing we couldn't make work.

kmetal, post: 457857, member: 37533 wrote: DonnyThompson pcrecord do you guys have anything to add as far as drum tuning in general? methods? what you shoot for, or avoid? It really is one of things that can be rushed, or good enough'ed, in the heat of a session.

This is a thing that any other musician and most drummer will never understand.. Drum tunning is a pain but is a must when recording. It's a pain because you have 5 to 8 and more tension point on a membrane (drum head) that will make vibrations harmonious or not. On top of that the shell has a natural vibration range that if you tune it right will give sustain or choke if done wrong. I thinks it is the hardest instrument to tune but it is doable...
Over muting with cloth and other material is the first mistake made. Assuming it stays in tune when moved is another.

Here's are the methods in effectiveness order
1- Tuning by lugs turns (if the drum was perfect maybe but none are)
2- Tuning by lugs tension (Ok but what about nut friction ?)
3- Tuning with DrumDial (better but you'd still get inconcistencies regarding frequencies produced but different lugs)
4- Tuning by ears to get the same note/harmonic on each lugs (long to do and depends on ear training)
5- Using apps or spectrum analyser to align the harmonics of each lugs
6- Using option5 and harmonising the diffence in pitch from the top head and the bottom to control sustain (= perfect sound)

Of course starting with fresh heads is a must + streching and letting the sit for a while (12-24h)

Well at least it is my take on tunning drums today.. I might change my mind tomorrow. I prefer doing it by ears but sometimes with an app on my phone.
There is also hardware tuners coming on the market that do the same as apps using harmonic frequencies to make the tunning.. Hope they get down in price tho...

pcrecord, post: 457872, member: 46460 wrote: Tuning by ears to get the same note/harmonic on each lugs (long to do and depends on hear training)

that's the only way to do it! Hal Blaine tuned his toms to 4ths or 5ths i think.

Kurt Foster, post: 457873, member: 7836 wrote: that's the only way to do it! Hal Blaine tuned his toms to 4ths or 5ths i think.

Agreed... althought for those who want to learn.. apps are great help ;)

Thanks Marco. i always wondered if drum dials were the magic solution, apparently there isnt one!

i primarily use #4.

pcrecord, post: 457872, member: 46460 wrote: Of course starting with fresh heads is a must + streching and letting the sit for a while (12-24h)

i never knew about letting them sit for a while. i usually ask thr drummers to 'break in their new heads by playing for an hour or two so they dont slip out of tune. im gonna try letting them sit, next time i have an opportunity.

The other great drummer I’ve worked with for 10-15 years owns a small drum shop and he’s notorious for bringing a different kit on a moments notice. But it’s never a concern because they ALWAYS sound great once he’s changed heads and tuned them up. My son is a drummer so one day we were at his shop and he showed my son how to change heads and tune them. We both knew the basics but the eyeopener for me was watching him stretching the new head in. It looked like he was doing chest compressions on a CPR dummy. I was surprised by that, but realized it wouldn’t be any different than when I change guitar strings. I stretch the crap out of them to stabilize them before worrying about tuning them.

dvdhawk, post: 457896, member: 36047 wrote: We both knew the basics but the eyeopener for me was watching him stretching the new head in. It looked like he was doing chest compressions on a CPR dummy.

That's how my mentor (dude i built the studios for) does it too. id never seen that up until then. a definite 'aha' moment for me.

I learned to play drums initially on a Roland td kit. When I bought my first acoustic kit, I fortunately had lots of drummers who were actually good to learn from. Add me to the stretch and tune brigade, it’s scary to do the first time, especially with expensive heads lol. But, what a difference. And I have an app for tuning the heads.

Tony

kmetal, post: 457887, member: 37533 wrote: i never knew about letting them sit for a while. i usually ask thr drummers to 'break in their new heads by playing for an hour or two so they dont slip out of tune. im gonna try letting them sit, next time i have an opportunity.

The technique is to put more tension than needed and let them sit for at least 12 hours. Those glued plastic heads are less prone to detune after that.
Then you push the head hard in with the palm of your hand and will hear cracking. That's the final setting done. Tuning after that is way easyier.

But if you don't have time, some will heat them with a hair dryer to accelerate the process.
I prefer the natural way but, you do what you need to do if the recording starts in the next hour.. ;)

pcrecord, post: 457918, member: 46460 wrote: The technique is to put more tension than needed and let them sit for at least 12 hours. Those glued plastic heads are less prone to detune after that.
Then you push the head hard in with the palm of your hand and will hear cracking. That's the final setting done. Tuning after that is way easyier.

But if you don't have time, some will heat them with a hair dryer to accelerate the process.
I prefer the natural way but, you do what you need to do if the recording starts in the next hour.. ;)

brilliant. Thanks.