I use an Motu 828mkII. Probably much better than my mic placement so I have not really considered them as any weak part of the link. Sometime use an MBox. Can´t say that is the weak link either.

Gunnar

I became a HUGE overnight fan of the Presonus Firepod...much better pres than one would expect, plenty of gain...and the FW interface makes things pretty simple.

I am toying with the idea of picking up a MiniMe, and connecting it to the FirePod via SPDIF...IF the AD is significantly better....

K

I currently use RAMSA WZ-AD96 and WZ-AD96M.

In the near future, I hope to pick up either Mytek or Prism conversion. Allthough, if the Lynx stuff sounds as good as I hope it does, I may find myself saving a little money.

J.

I used the LynxTWO A/D til I got my Mytek 96-- the Mytek is a noticeable improvement in transparency and "ease" of sound-- reminds me of the Troisi I used to own.

The Lynx, while an excellent value (esp the Aurora), does NOT equal either Mytek or Prism, IMHO.

As for the Masterlink, I have found mine to sound better at 88.2 and 96.

Rich

J...just how do those Ramsa units compare to...say...RME? Lavry? etc....

A/D

For acustic/ classical location-recording RME Fireface 800, together with Audient ASP008 Preamp (via ADAT) is a nice combination.

Daniel

ehh,...

when I said ADAT I just mean it as an option if you want to connect more channels. The RME converters are probably better than the ones from audient.

Daniel

I use an Apogee Mini-Me, which I think is very good indeed. Not everyone will agree with me that the preamps are great as well, but I really like them. I can't say why, but I feel they add something that I can't put my finger on. Care needs to be taken when monitoring, as high input gain with low monitoring sounds different from listening the other way around, which can make it quite difficult to judge what goes onto you hard disk. It takes practice to get this right, but when you do, it can do some great stuff.

I never thought the day would come when cables would be the bulkiest part of my rig!

John

BTW for anyone interested. Apogee are giving away the Mini-Pre on the website if you buy some other stuff. I don't think it ever took off -at least I have never heard of anyone buying one.

Depends on the gig really... My every day documentary/broadcast rig is either Ramsa WZ-AD96M digital mic pres. It is small and easy to use and sounds relatively decent. When I bring my analog pres, I go directly into my Lynx 2 card.

Rich- Let's not talk about the Aurora as NOBODY has heard them yet. They are almost ready to be released, but still they aren't readily available. They will likely be a pretty substantial step up from the Lynx 2 card, however nobody can say how they will compare to the other stuff out there. Your Myteks, though, I'm sure are very good... Michael has always produced a top-notch product at a very fair price.

When I do sessions, I borrow a set of Lavry blue converters that I use as my first 8 channels of conversion. From there, the rest of my channels are covered by the Lynx usually.

--Ben

Midlandmorgan wrote: J...just how do those Ramsa units compare to...say...RME? Lavry? etc....

I would say they are quite nice. I can't say they are on the level of the Lavry. I've never done an A/B of the RME to the RAMSA, but I like the RME stuff. (probably more than I should.)

I'm curious, does anyone out there who's using the Fireface have any strong opinions about it? I'm considering selling one of my RAMSA units in favor of the RME. (Though I might wait until the Lynx stuff is on the market...and the Mytek stuff is cheap too.)

J...

The Fireface is pretty decent sounding, but I would still prefer to have a PCI interface on a PC. From the bits that I've seen of it, I think it is too finicky about the Firewire interface it sees. It can work quite well, but I have to work a lot less to get my PCI card interfaces to work well. An AES-16 with the Aurora I could see being one of the best "bang for the buck" interfaces out there. We shall see when it finally hits the street.

-Ben

FifthCircle wrote: An AES-16 with the Aurora I could see being one of the best "bang for the buck" interfaces out there. We shall see when it finally hits the street.

-Ben

Waiting patiently............
Have the AES16 and just want something a little better to plug into it...

Cucco wrote:
I'm curious, does anyone out there who's using the Fireface have any strong opinions about it? I'm considering selling one of my RAMSA units in favor of the RME.

I have not compared the two directly. Both have left me with the impression that, stock, they sound very reasonable for the price. I can offer some additional info about the Fireface:

It's four mic pre's use a transistor front end which feeds a differential op-amp (a sort of discreet/ic hybrid approach). This feeds a buffer stage which drives an AKM converter chip. The main thing I like is the architecture of the unit, which offers plenty of hot-rodding and up-grade opportunities. I have not had any problems with getting its drivers stable.

I am not excited about its switching power supply. If memory serves, the Ramsa also has a switching p/s (but I could be wrong). This, too, can be modified but then size increases and portability wains. Also, the first two mic pre channels go through an electronic (fet) switch, so that they can be swapped with the rear panel inputs. Fet switches are not consonant with audiophile practices. However this can easily be modified and bypassed, at the expense of (un-needed) flexibility.

Thanks Zilla!! That's some wonderful information!

I hope you are gonna stick around here, your input is sincerely appreciated!

What kind of hot-rodding specifically do you speak of in regards to the RME? Would you mind going into details if you have the time?

Thanks!!!

Jeremy :D

Ben: Since it appears you own one, maybe you would pop the top off of your Ramsa and confirm the type of power supply it has. If you see a healthy looking transformer, it is probably a linear supply. If you see something that looks like it would power a hard drive, then it is most likely a switching power supply.

Cucco: I don't like to get too specific about mods that I do since I/we are in a competitive business. Generally speaking, changing out op-amps, caps, and resistors for higher quality parts is the bulk of the changes. Re-routing signal paths and power supply changes are others. Inside its chassis, the fireface is essentially a single large circuit board; the majority of which is populated with surface mount components. Surface mount=very difficult soldering. I would not recommend anyone but the most highly skilled try mod'ing such a thing, otherwise you may end up with a useless device and no warranty options.

Sure... My box is in the storage unit where I keep all of my gear right now, though... I'll try to take a look in the next day or so.

--Ben

Sure. I'll gut it this weekend.

I understand the tight lips about the mods. How much would you charge to do the mods on a RME?

J.

I just acquired the fireface recently and am still experimenting with changes. Its nice because I can leave two channels stock, and mod only the other two for comparison tests. Since I have not finalized the mod yet, I don't know what the costs would be. Also it depends on how many aspects of the device you want changed. The fireface has a vast number of individual circuits (think: each analog and digital input and output), which can be adjusted or left stock. Do you only want the mic pres mod'd, or more? Guessing: $600-$2,400?

Well, I kind of feel like this thread is getting hijacked. Email me if you have any further inquiries. Thanks for your interest.

FifthCircle wrote: The Fireface is pretty decent sounding, but I would still prefer to have a PCI interface on a PC.

Firewire interfaces (be it a card, or built into the mobo) are still sitting on the PCI bus. So it is certainly more direct to have your audio interface communicate directly with the PCI bus rather than add an extra layer of firewire protocol on top of it. But firewire is adequate for many circumstances.

...now for trying to stay on topic...

As far as which converters I use: it varies on the profit margin of the project. For non-critical archival situations, something like an Apogee psx100se or the likes of a modified Fireface fit the bill. Recently I have been engineering for Bernie Grundman's "Straight Ahead Records" label. We mix and record acoustic jazz direct to multiple 2-track formats, simultaneously. For our LPCM 2496 and 1644 captures, we are using modified LAVRY Gold AD122-96's.

I don't think its a hijack at all...since the FW devices being discussed are nopting more than AD DA conversion with a different set of cables and protocols. it seems perfectly logical to be discussing these....

BTT: I've been using a FirePod lately both remote and in the main shop...as I am NEVER 100% satisfied with anything, I keep playing around with different combinations, but thus far it seems to work well...

I will say I am still somewhat leery of running over 48K in a do or die setting...so until my confidence builds in long term use over 48K, I'll just stick to it...in the studio, I can SRC to whatever with no problems.

Zilla wrote: I just acquired the fireface recently and am still experimenting with changes. Its nice because I can leave two channels stock, and mod only the other two for comparison tests. Since I have not finalized the mod yet, I don't know what the costs would be. Also it depends on how many aspects of the device you want changed. The fireface has a vast number of individual circuits (think: each analog and digital input and output), which can be adjusted or left stock. Do you only want the mic pres mod'd, or more? Guessing: $600-$2,400?

Well, I kind of feel like this thread is getting hijacked. Email me if you have any further inquiries. Thanks for your interest.

Midlandmorgan wrote: I will say I am still somewhat leery of running over 48K in a do or die setting..

Interestingly, many of the ic converter chips found in a/d's have higher distortion levels at x2Fs. This is according to the chip manufacturer's own data sheet specifications. So your leery-ness is well founded.

Interesting stuff.

So, about the RME - what do you think about the converters specifically in their stock state?

Are the distortion levels in many cases out of band (~40kHz?)

J.

Cucco wrote:
Are the distortion levels in many cases out of band (~40kHz?)

I have no idea. I should probably temper my previous remark. When you have a device that performs several functions, it is not surprising that some design compromise must be made. In this particular case, one is trading added bandwidth for more distortion when going from x1Fs to x2Fs.

It is difficult to offer a comment about the fireface's converters specifically. It is very difficult to segregate the AKM chip from its surrounding support circuitry (analog line receiver and buffers, digital rx/tx, crystal clock generator, firewire interface, blah blah blah). Like a said before, stock, it has a reasonable sound for its features and price point. How "hi-end" it might possibly sound post-mod is currently unknown, but under development. Since I have had it only a short time I have not formed any concrete opinions. But I don't think I could justify using it stock on a well-paying, critical commercial session.

* Be carefull when auditioning the unit. You should be aware that the unit's headphone amp is mediocre. The unit records with better fidelity then the headphone amp would have you believe.

That's the info I was looking for.

I'm definitely trying to upgrade my AD right now (nothing WRONG with the RAMSA, just looking for a little better.)

Just out of curiosity - does anyone have any opinions on the A/D used in the Tascam digital mixers (DM24 and their new iteration?)

I'm wondering if these would stand up against some of the stuff like RME/RAMSA/Apogee.

Ultimately, I think I'll be plunging into the Mytek. (Although, I'm still holding out hope on the Prisms).

J.

Firewire interfaces (be it a card, or built into the mobo) are still sitting on the PCI bus. So it is certainly more direct to have your audio interface communicate directly with the PCI bus rather than add an extra layer of firewire protocol on top of it. But firewire is adequate for many circumstances.

Absolutely... I find that when you begin to stretch the bandwidth of the interface that you have your issues. A single fireface works pretty well, 2 of them on a FW400 port begins to strain the system. Not to mention also things like the issues about things like the plethora of bad cables out there. For small stuff, I'd consider a fireface, but I already have my Lynx setup in my shuttle system.

Recently I have been engineering for Bernie Grundman's "Straight Ahead Records" label. We mix and record acoustic jazz direct to multiple 2-track formats, simultaneously. For our LPCM 2496 and 1644 captures, we are using modified LAVRY Gold AD122-96's.

Glad to hear you're still out there recording... Are any of these recording commercially available? I'd love to hear them- sounds like you're using a good rig.

Just out of curiosity - does anyone have any opinions on the A/D used in the Tascam digital mixers (DM24 and their new iteration?)

The DM24 isn't a bad mixer. It is a bit large and the gain structure of the mic pres as it comes stock is in need of help, but it is a good console. I would say that the A-D's in it are probably comparable to what you'd get with a Ramsa DA-7 (roughly from what I remember). I think the newest generation of Yamaha mixers is better, though (ie DM1000).

In the end (getting back on topic here), I think most would find that that majority of mid- to high-grade 3rd party conveters will sound better than the stuff that comes stock. Be it Mytek, Apogee, Lavry, Benchmark, Prism or any other. Beyond that, it becomes a matter of personal taste as to which people like and which they don't like.

--Ben

FifthCircle wrote: ... Are any of these recording commercially available? I'd love to hear them-

The first two recordings, Hugh Masekela and Zane Musa, should be out in June. They will be released on DualDisc and 200g Vinyl.

For location work I have been using Prism's recently released Firewire card with an ADA8 straight into a 1ghz Powerbook. No problems whatsoever with up to 8 channels of 24/96. Very stable and not TOO cumbersome, although it would be nice to have something more compact for when you know you're not going to need more than 2 channels. Surely one day Grace will get around adding Firewire to the Lunatec.
--Angus

How do you like the Prisms? I've dreamt (no pun intended) about their DSD converters. After hearing them in action just once, I'd cut off my right *** to get ahold of one. Of course, $14,000 is a little steep for 8 channels of conversion!

The ADA8 is a very nice box. It's very well thought out, nicely engineered and of course, it sounds good. Nice 'extras' too: very good metering, monitoring, several built-in noise-shaping algorithms. Remarkable that it's Prism's 'economized' model, compared to the AD/DA 2s. But add up the cost of 8 channels of those... I've seen ADA8s occasionally on eBay for more like 6k.
-Angus

Hi, I've not posted here before but I've been reading the forum for some weeks now and it's nice to see a web forum where people seem to get along without fighting even when they don't always agree. Maybe acoustic music specialists are just inherently more friendly than most :wink:

For any kind of recording, location or studio, I normally prefer dCS 904/954 converters. (I've tried the 905/955 and love them but I can't afford to upgrade right now.) The various Prism converters are very good and I'd probably go for them as a second choice; an ADA8 is a lot less hassle to carry around than six channels of dCS A-D and D-A but what the dCS looses in convenience, it makes up for in quality :D If double/quad rate PCM or DSD facilities aren't needed, theres always my old dCS900c A-D and a 952 D-A.

I really like the idea of the Prism AD2, for it's ability to output 24/96 and 24/44.1 at the same time from only a single 1U box - very handy :)

I've also got some Lynx cards (L2, L22A(x2) and an AES16) and for non-critical stuff the converters are excellent - easily the best sensibly priced computer soundcards I've heard.

On a slightly different subject, I'm looking for a really portable AD/DA for those small demo/archive recordings that don't warrant carrying a full rig. 24/88.2 sampling is more important to me than 24/96 and I don't need built in preamps or any other tricks, just decent AD/DA. I don't want to record to computer as my primary media (though I don't mind running one in parallel) so firewire interfaces and the like don't really figure for me unless they can run a simultaneous AES/EBU digital output to a separate recorder. I've been carrying a pair of dCS converters up to now but it'd be great to have something more practical. I tried a MiniMe but it was too "Apogee" sounding for my liking so if anyone knows of a decent sounding (prefer clean/neutral) small AD/DA I'd welcome any suggestions. (PM/email would probably be better than dragging this thread off topic.)

0VU wrote: On a slightly different subject, I'm looking for a really portable AD/DA for those small demo/archive recordings that don't warrant carrying a full rig.

Hello 0VU,

Welcome to the group. Benchmark Media makes a fine D/A (DAC1) and is promising a companion A/D (ADC1) as we speak. Both are no-frills, 192kHz capable. I hope to demo the ADC1 next week at the NAB show. These are 1RU half-size, so both will take 1RU.

http://

Peter, if you see Benchmark at NAB, ask them when that box is really going to hit. I've been hearing them say "real soon now" for a couple of years. At every convention, they say it is around the corner... I have a DAC-1 that I've been using for years and I love it. Getting the companion piece for my small location gigs would be great, but I'm not holding my breath...

--Ben

True, it has been a long time in coming.

Look for an update, next week.

Hey 0VU,

If you're not hung up on high sample rates, you might want to hop on over to ebay right now. There's a sonic solutions AD/DA on there for $99. If I recall correctly, this is one of the sonic boxes where you don't need "sonic I/O" to make it work. You might want to double check though.

The SS converters are pretty darn good and well worth $99!

J.

Firewire versus PCI

I’m very interested in this discussion because I just bought a RME Fireface 800 for our acoustic Irish group. I replaced my old 20 bit Layla with the RME for recording but I would like to also use it, with a laptop, for live sound. I guess a PCI bus is more direct but the Firewire 800 specifications allows me to move the computer, up to, 100 meters away from the interface. Right now, I’m using a 30 feet cable and have no problems. (I’ve only recorded one song and used 8 inputs) The point is I’m using a 30 feet cable; something I can’t do with PCI. My thoughts are forget the snake, put everything on stage, and mix from the audience with a laptop.

Re: Firewire versus PCI

sseverett wrote: I’m very interested in this discussion because I just bought a RME Fireface 800 for our acoustic Irish group . . . I would like to also use it, with a laptop, for live sound . . . My thoughts are forget the snake, put everything on stage, and mix from the audience with a laptop.

My first (unresearched) concern would be possible latency. You will have to check that any introduced delays do not interfere with the musician's ability to perform.

Another concern would be the long firewire cable. You want any cables that are deployed in location situations to be very robust. Most firewire cables I have seen are relatively delicate. Also they do not have positive, locking connectors. Just imagine audience members feverishly jigging across your wire.

Both of these issues could probably be overcome. Just thought I would bring them to your attention.

REM claims their FireFace 800 can be set up with very low latency. I will find out once I hook it all up and start using plug-ins on the sound. I paid $75 for my 30 foot cable and it looks like a gray, 14 gauge, extension cord. I think it will work well. You are absolutely right on the connectors. Even the stiffness of the cord will pull out the connector if the box is moved. Some lock will need to be fabricated for me to use this in a live situation.

MasonMedia:

Welcome to the group. Benchmark Media makes a fine D/A (DAC1) and is promising a companion A/D (ADC1) as we speak. Both are no-frills, 192kHz capable. I hope to demo the ADC1 next week at the NAB show. These are 1RU half-size, so both will take 1RU.

Hi, and thanks for that :) I'll try to check out the Benchmarks when they become available. It might be a bit tricky as I don't think that Benchmark has any dealer representation/support in the UK but if they're good I'm sure there's ways around getting a unit to try and obtaining service cover if I have trouble with it later on.

Cucco:

If you're not hung up on high sample rates, you might want to hop on over to ebay right now. There's a sonic solutions AD/DA on there for $99. If I recall correctly, this is one of the sonic boxes where you don't need "sonic I/O" to make it work. You might want to double check though.

The SS converters are pretty darn good and well worth $99!

Thanks :)

I had a look at those converters but by the time I got to doing it I'd missed them. Now I think about it though, I might have some old SS converters lurking in the back of a cupboard somewhere. I'll have a dig round and see what turns up.

Sadly I do need higher sample rates - not particularly for my own benefit, clients seem to expect bigger numbers these days :roll: Personally, I'd say that a decent converter like a dCS 900 running at 24/44.1 will blow away most cheap converters running 24/96 but too many people who book recordings over here just see the numbers rather than using their ears.

Well, its been a year but I have finally completed the modifications to my Fireface 800 alluded to in this thread. My initial expectations were just to make a convenient interface sound good for those "less-than-critical" recording sessions. Though I say it myself, the performance improvement is surprisingly significant. In comparison, my mod has been preferred over the apog33 and pr1zm converters we compared with. The lavry gold was still better than the mod (of course, being about the best converter on the market!), but it had similar characteristics: resolute midrange without bloating, open top-end without being hard or excessively tipped up. Anyway, I am excited to now have an 8-channel ad/laptop interface in 1U that is respectable enough for almost any session.