Originally posted by Bear's Gone Fission:
However, I'm glad r.a.p. is still there for a few reasons. First is years of searchable archivesBear

RAP is not what it used to be and I must admit it gets real old answering the best condenser mic for under 100 bucks questions for the millionth time. The archives, if used bt newbies would benefit all. It would lower the signal to noise ratio and keep the real people around. When I turn off my filter I get 500 posts a day. With my killfile on I get 20. Life isn't that bad when you have a noise gate.

Can someone give me the URL for the rec.audio.pro forum? I'm more or less a newbie to these things, and so far basically hang here because it's great, with occasional forays into ProSoundWeb just to see what Fletcher/Bob/Mixerman are up to. Anyway, I'd like to check out this other site you are talking about, as well.

RAP is a newsgroup (as opposed to a web-based forum). There's no URL. Instead, you access it via your email client or other newsgroup reader. I use Outlook Express; just setup your news server to subscribe to "rec.audio.pro" and bingo.

I agree tho, RAP's "noise-to-signal" ratio is pretty much outta sight of late. The searchable Google archive is a very cool resource, however. (It's at [[url=http://[/URL]="http://groups.googl…"]groups.google.com[/]="http://groups.googl…"]groups.google.com[/] for those not in the know.)

While I agree there is a lot of junk on RAP, even the people with 'good reputations' seem to spout off degrading and 'self-gratifing' BS. Even if a stupid question or statement is made, no comment is better than their claptrap.

screw em' all I say... nah, some of em' are ok. the geek factor in the audio field freaks me out sometimes though. it is like computer geeks talking about chips etc. i just wish people could relax and be a bit more hippie about the whole thing. more sharing/caring and adding to the whole of audio instead of tainting it. i think a lot of em' sit there and criticize singers and musicians but could never match even their talents if they tried. i hope i don't become this jadded... as i'm just starting to enter the audio field. their attitudes make me want to consider a different occupation.

I can't give RAP up...

The sheer size of it I suppose, means there is a higher potential to asshole.

The size + drab look, makes for more weird sort of bizarre posts, sometimes funny and sometimes nasty or dreary mud slinging matches..

Still it's is IMHO the best place to pop a 'what the hell is this' audio gear question, because SOMEONE, SOMEWHERE on RAP will know the answer.

I have been skipping over A LOT of posts lately, I have noticed that. Rap also has phases or cycles where it veers into being drab or a pain.. It seems to be in a 'steady as she goes, medium drab' mode at present.

This topic title makes me a little nervous! But I can cope! :)

Well, it's good to read your positive comments about RO, it makes my job feel worth it. If you have a moment, please add comments like this to the link below.

(Dead Link Removed)

THIS is the place....though i Agree With The Bear...Mike Rivers is a great guy and does know his stuff...Hes also the main reason I wont be upgrading to mackie digital stuff...havent been to the RAP site yet...the prosound rec site takes too long to load(my crappy 'cow')...I do like homerecording.com cause its got Harvey Gersts' comments on all sorts of stuff and especially microphones...anybodys whos looking for a disiplined 'listen' and opinion of mic sound should check out harveys 'locker' of mics and then you'll understand why hes got such a definitive view of what they sound like...prorec.com has nice articles and head to head tests...just my .09(inflated .02) worth...Happy Holidays to All...da dog :w:

The worst problem with R.A.P. is when one of the "core" members posts something inane and the other "core" members are so far up each other's you-know-whats that they will come to his defense and back him up at all costs, even when the original poster is incorrect. It's more like the "R.A.P. mafia", but a Polish one, at that!

And no offense to any ethic group -- just trying to illustrate my point.

It's a self-imposed aristocracy! Pure bull.

Howdy

On r.a.p, you have people of varying experience and tastes talking about entirely subjective topics using a communication method totally unsuited for that purpose.

Originally posted by Hev:
It's a self-imposed aristocracy! Pure bull.

Until I got laid off a week and a half ago, I would typically scan RAP several times a day and keep up with probably 200 threads at a time. No, that's not why I got laid off. Anyway, I haven't been posting much there since I don't have much to say, but it's fairly easy to weed out all the junk and have nothing left over except mostly good stuff, and there's plenty of that. It takes a decent news reader with good filters to do it, so I just used "tin". I've been a regular on RAP for several years now. I'm curious to know what in the world you're talking about.

Who is being an asshole over there? I can think of one "heavyweight" who is such merely because he knows a lot of stuff, but who has been a regular on RAP only for, I dunno, maybe a couple of years or so. He's one of the most annoying players, almost as bad as the trolls who come over from the "opinion" audio newsgroup, but he still adds a lot of useful info from time to time. Actually, that "heavyweight" has a strong presence because he seems to reply to almost everything. Perhaps that's who you're talking about, or that's someone who helped shape your opinion. From what I've seen, there aren't many people like that on RAP.

But I don't let one or even a few overly brash newsgroup dominators blind me to the fact that there are a *lot* of great folks on that newsgroup, many of whom don't even bother posting anything unless they have something useful to say, and when they do it makes the whole experience worthwhile.

But I'm looking at it from my perspective of being someone outside the industry with a passion for audio as a hobby, so I'm up for learning as much as I can. I've learned more there than here. For those of you who just want to have some comradere (which I probably don't know how to spell) with other professionals, you would probably find something like this forum to be a lot better. And those of you who don't use a decent newsreader are just SOL. A web-based forum like this just can't compare, IMO.

RO has a much more manageable level of traffic, for now, at least. And so far the S/N ratio is a lot better than that of the prosound web forums, as well. But that depends on what you judge to be signal vs noise, and that will vary according to your needs.

As soon as I get set up with a newsreader and newsserver again, I'll be tracking RAP again, though not quite so often. To each his own. But I just can't see any justification for all the RAP bashing here, and I'm *very* familiar with what goes on in that group. Or so I think. Perhaps my filters quickly weed out 90% of what has formed your opinions of it.

Merry Christmas,

I still cruise RAP on a regular basis. I still get and sometimes give(hopefully) meaningful information. Yes it is populated with newbies and disgruntled cretins. Sometimes I like that, sometimes I don't. It's called the internet.

Nate... it is just the attitude in there. There are definitely 'clicks' in there, and they are terribly rude to people who ask newbie questions. It is my feeling that anyone just getting into audio should be encouraged and helped in all ways possible. When a stupid question is asked it is my feeling that it should be a warning flag for people to help EVEN MORE and be EVEN MORE helpful. It kills me to see people in the field of audio acting like a know it all computer geek. You know that character on saturday night live... the computer guy that yells 'move!' every time someone doesn't understand their computer. It is just like that. It sickens me and scares me to think what my future co-workers will be like.

I can understand how people can become very frustrated with rap. Yes, you do need a thick skin to survive. A well designed newsreader with comprehensive filtering is a must. And there is always the stray a-hole with nothing better to do than see how much noise it can make.

But the concept that fuels rap is a great thing, IMO. The fact that thousands of people at one time can come together and discuss audio related topics is no small feat. Rap was where I first met many of the great folks who have graced the threads of RO, some who even becoming moderators here. They gave freely their wealth of audio knowledge, and for that I am most grateful. It totally changed the way I looked at and approached my work. Without the advice I got on rap, I don't know what my career would look like today.

These aspects of rap helped determine the direction of several aspects of this site. Hopefully we can recognize the good points of rap, and continue to implement them into this site. Also, IMO we should try to learn from the mistakes and shortcomings of rap, and focus on not making those mistakes - instead of bashing rap for them.

Happy Holidays Everyone! :D

Originally posted by Hev:
Nate... it is just the attitude in there. There are definitely 'clicks' in there, and they are terribly rude to people who ask newbie questions. It is my feeling that anyone just getting into audio should be encouraged and helped in all ways possible. When a stupid question is asked it is my feeling that it should be a warning flag for people to help EVEN MORE and be EVEN MORE helpful.

Yes, RAP can be rough at times. Nobody frowns on a thorough newbie question. When people ask what the best mic for guitar is it's not something that can be answered but it is a newbie question.

To be totally honest I haven't been following your shit storm over there and I'm not about to. I try and stay out of the flame wars.

To be totally honest I haven't been following your shit storm over there and I'm not about to. I try and stay out of the flame wars.

This is the first flame war I have ever been involved in the 5 or 6 years I've been posting to newsgroups. Hopefully the last too, but I don't regret it. People need to stop mocking and being jerks, plain and simple.

Nobody frowns on a thorough newbie question.

Yeah, right. Monkeys are proably flying out of a particular orifice at this moment... :roll:

Hev

The morbid curiosity got the best of me and I went back to see _what_ started the flamewar. After reading enough of it, I can only say three things:

The benefits of r.a.p far outweight the PITA (IMO).

Unfueled flames die out quickly.

A newsreader with filters is a delight.

Happy Holidays!

Originally posted by Hev:
Yeah, right. Monkeys are proably flying out of a particular orifice at this moment... :roll:

Just because things didn't go well for you with one or four people doesn't mean that everyone is an asshole.

Just because things didn't go well for you with one or four people doesn't mean that everyone is an asshole.

I would never have been mad if I hadn't seen it 100 times in the past on RAP. And I've never said everyone on RAP is an asshole. I've gotten a lot of great advice and info there as well. It is simply an attitude problem that I have seen within real studios as well.

Just a quick note in defense of those who give RAP a bad rap...

I gave that place every chance. Left twice, the second time was for good.

IMHO there =is= no signal beneath the noise there that is decodable or of interest to anyone but the most easily led and basic of beginners. The effort to decode what is useful out of the egoism, IMHO simply isn't worth the effort. And you might imagine that if they treated the resource I offered them with so little courtesy and respect (for each other, not just me) and the appreciators just weren't enough to make me stay, imagine what someone with lesser caché goes through.

I did my own best to try and elevate the tone of the place, unsuccessfully, one of the reasons I knew I was wasting my time.

I had my share of start-up problems here, as many from there and other less civilized places come and pounce on places like this when they're new... but though I did have to leave here for a bit as well to make my point, at least here, the act of going was sufficiently perceived as understandable, and as enough of a loss and warning, so that the place was purged, and we now have a great place to be.

I hope forever that my willingness to stand up for everyone's right to have at least one relatively asshole-free place on the 'net to get into it with all our favorite interests, is a good part of not only what helped RO get itself together, and earn a relatively troll-free rep, but is a notion which seems to be spreading to other groups, notably recording web.

So those who don't mind RAP, great, but please, though you might justify it, think it's great or whatever, let's leave it there, and keep the wonderful result of what Chris assembled here... here.

I was offered a lot of beans to go and moderate a certain well-known board with magazine sponsoring and paid industry types. I stayed here for free. I hope that says something.

Merry Christmas everyone, and tell Chris thanks publicly for going broke to put this place together with my full support, and the support of those like Ang(elo), so this place could be a beacon in a foggy world of BS and self-styled gurus who have a great time holding court on the 'net, because it's the only place that'll take 'em! ;)

Chris has gone above and beyond what is required for a recording oriented net forum. Not only has he kept the place in check with moderators that are experienced and civil, but he has helped merchants such as myself with the free banners and the even newer industry search engine. Thank you Chris for everything. I know I for one will never forget how you have gone out of your way to create something that completely rules any other forum out there. Have a great new year, and here is to a prosperous 2002 for everyone, and especially RO!

Originally posted by Hev:
I would never have been mad if I hadn't seen it 100 times in the past on RAP. And I've never said everyone on RAP is an asshole. I've gotten a lot of great advice and info there as well. It is simply an attitude problem that I have seen within real studios as well.Hev,

The big problem is that a lot of these "newbie" questions are best answered and posted in alt.music.4-track, which was originally set up specifically to handle the "what is the best mic for $200", "what's the best compressor settings for me", and "how do I use my eq to tune my speakers" kind of questions.

rec.audio.pro was set up to accomodate "pros", not new folks. Some folks there have better social skills than others - some don't easily suffer foolishness, or answer questions that can be answered by a little due dilligence on the part of the person doing the asking.

For those newbies looking for a "kinder, gentler" group, I would suggest visiting "alt.music.4-track" or "recording.org", or "homerecording.com".

rec.audio.pro DOES have an attitude, but it's the ONLY place where you'll see most of the real pros, hanging out in abundance. And the real pros can be cruel as hell.

I recently saw someone on r.a.p. get into a fight with EggHd about the actual mechanics of the music business, and the new poster suggested that EggHd learn something about the business before he spouts off on something he doesn't know anything about.

EggHd is Randy Nicklaus, who is head of A&R for one of the major labels, as well as a first rate producer/engineer, with credits that include Blondie, Yes, Motley Crue, and dozens of other well-respected bands. And this new kid is telling Randy Nicklaus to learn something about the business. Geez.

If you can take it, there's no other place like r.a.p. on earth. You or I won't change that attitude, and if it really bothers you that much, hang out at some of the alternative spots I mentioned.

Originally posted by Hev:
I would never have been mad if I hadn't seen it 100 times in the past on RAP. And I've never said everyone on RAP is an asshole. I've gotten a lot of great advice and info there as well. It is simply an attitude problem that I have seen within real studios as well.

So, basically it's an attitude problem within the entire industry. The industry seems to refuse to reform to your sense of civility. That's a damn shame that we all can't be the evolved and enlightened individual that you seem to be.

So, bearing in mind that the people who hang on r.a.p. may indeed have a propensity to be Neanderthals with few to no manners, why don't you ignore the people that haven't achieved your highly evolved state.

I found that since I began ignoring the "what's the best mic for $200" type questions that my time on r.a.p. has been far more interesting, and far less frustrating. I'm relatively new there, I've only been hanging on r.a.p. for the last 5 or 6 years...it took me a while to realize that I don't have to respond to every response, and that I don't have to be involved in every thread. The best part is that I have the ability to ignore [and even twit filter] anyone who annoys me.

Perhaps if you took a similar approach you could gain what you desire, leave what information you can, and have a pleasant r.a.p. experience. Then again, maybe not.

So, bearing in mind that the people who hang on r.a.p. may indeed have a propensity to be Neanderthals with few to no manners, why don't you ignore the people that haven't achieved your highly evolved state.

Now now Flecther... no need to be patronizing. I've decided to just lurk and feel completely disassociated with the ulterior goal of becoming a better engineer than those goons could ever hope to be.

Hev,

You're gonna hafta go a pretty long way to beat some of the "goons" that post on rec.audio.pro. I was blown away when I started doing an "allmusic.com" search on some of the people who post on r.a.p.

Harvey

They all started somewhere... you can't knock a guy for aiming high. The passion is there, now I just need the experience.

-hev

Hev,

It's not knocking you. Hopefully, it's some "words to the wise". Listen and learn. There are some great teachers out there (JnyVee and Hank Alrich among them) who have a lot to offer. I try very hard to stay out of the flame wars, but it's hard to do, even for me (and I'm pretty easy to get along with).

One of the most important things you can learn is find out who you're talking to first, BEFORE you go off the deep end. When one guy flamed George Massenburg for offering some advice, things really got crazy over at r.a.p. during that period.

It really isn't such a bad place, once you get to know everybody.

There are some great teachers out there (JnyVee and Hank Alrich among them) who have a lot to offer.

I'm sure they are great teachers, and I really had nothing against them (initially). Neither of them were the cause of me loosing my temper... they just dragged themselves into it really. I never criticized them (initially) unless they took something I said in general personally. It is beyond me. If they are audio 'pros' they sure don't act like it.

-Hev

Errr, ummm, (blush!) (damn, I feel stupid!)
OK - just have to come out and ask. I'm a Mac user with NO idea (acute embarassment) how to access a newsgroup. (God! What a compu-moron I am!) Is there some kind of freeware or shareware i can download from some site that is Mac friendly? And once I do that, is it self-evident how to use it? How does one specifically "sign-on" (sign up? log on?) to a newsgroup, (e.g. rec.audio.pro) initially?

I know this probably falls uncomfortably close to "what is the best mic for under $200?", but if someone would graciously stoop to helping me here, I will be forever in your debt (sing your praises from down low, etc.)

If you're new to the recording biz, there is one thread I'm particularly proud of over at: http://homerecording.com/bbs//showthread.php?s=&threadid=27030

It represents about 6 months worth of work and has a lot of information packed into it. I'd love to figure out how to bring it over here for people who are just starting out.

Originally posted by Hev:
Now now Flecther... no need to be patronizing.

Probably not...but I felt like being patronizing because it's such a dumbassed thread. Kid, if you don't figure out how to put on a thick skin now, you're gonna get skinned alive...most likely by some of your best friends. No shit. BTW, asshole, you might try spelling my name right next time, it will make you look like you're actually paying attention.

I've decided to just lurk and feel completely disassociated with the ulterior goal of becoming a better engineer than those goons could ever hope to be.

"Feel disassociated with the ulterior goal"?

First of all, asshole, this isn't a race. It's about music. It's about taking an idea and conveying it. It's about finding audio that complements the musical statement as you interpret the musical statement.

We work in a very odd field as we employ technical tools to achieve artistic goals. There are no rules to these applications, there are only impressions, instincts, gut feelings. Sometimes, everything you know is indeed wrong...happens to us old fat fucks all the time. The difference is that us old fat fucks, we have a repertoire of tricks up our sleeve to figure out a 'fall back' position.

On January 5th I'm about to start an album for friend. No contract, no points, no pub, no session fee...basically, a favor. But it's not a favor as I have my own ulterior motive for this project. With the exception of the room we've booked for the project, and a couple of "new stand-by" mic pre's...I'll not be using a single piece of equipment I've ever used before.

Manufacturers send me shit to check out all the time. At the moment I have a backlog from hell, so this album will allow me to try it all out. Now, what does this have to do with you? Damn good question.

I'm walking into this thing without a clue of the specifics of any of the hardware. From microphones I've never heard to a completely foreign "storage medium", to monitor speakers I've never used. I'll also be bringing with me well over 25 years of doing this shit...so I'll be able to listen, move, change, alter, (I only have one channel of EQ at the moment, so shit like 'mic selection and placement' is going to be of paramount importance.

You don't learn this shit on a usenet group, you don't learn this shit on an internet forum. You definitely don't learn this shit with your mouth open. In other words, the most intelligent thing I've seen you type is that "I've decided to just lurk and feel completely disassociated".

If you try, you can actually learn something from boards like this, r.a.p. and others. The big question is: what can you learn? You can get an idea of things you may want to try. You can get an idea of a technique you may never have come up with on your own. You may find something that may start you down a different path with your work, but you ain't never gonna find "truth" nor "salvation".

Any asshole can get music to move through a wire. It ain't that tough. How you focus on that music, how you complement that music or impede the musical statement is entirely what this game is all about. Your feelings got hurt? Nobody gives a fuck.

You worked your balls off on a recording and didn't get mentioned in the press? Par for the course. You worked your balls off on a recording and didn't get a credit on the album cover? Welcome to the real world (yes, there is a clause in my standard contract that covers how my credit is to read, as well as the size it is to be when printed, as well as approval of location), I've still been stiffed on more credits than I've recieved.

You want to be a great recording engineer? That's an admirable goal. But do it because you want to be a great recording engineer, not "with the ulterior goal of becoming a better engineer than those goons could ever hope to be." That'll just impede your progress on the best of days.

Work hard now, talk trash later.

Harvey

I'm starting to read that thread now and will probably learn a ton. Just wanted to say thanks, I appreciate it.

But seeing your picture next to each post is freaking me out... I won't want to go to sleep tonight in fear of what my dreams may bring! (not cutting on harvey, a bit of an inside joke)

Originally posted by Bear's Gone Fission:
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=rec.audio.pro&hl=en is the easy way. They even have a serviceable facility for posting now. I'm glad Google has it now and not Deja, as there are deeper archives available and the search tools work well. There's more information there than you'll ever find useful in your whole career, but then again, you could take your whole career to read it if you went post by post.

Bear

Wow! Thanks Bear! You're a peach! Now I can read all the threads without even worrying about how to access a newsgroup. :D

BTW, asshole, you might try spelling my name right next time, it will make you look like you're actually paying attention.

God... I flipped two letters around by accident. Your comments are uncalled for. Do all people in the field of audio suffer from frail self esteems or what the fuck is going on?

First of all, asshole, this isn't a race. It's about music.

That was what I was defending when the whole flame war started in the newsgroup.

As for all your other advice Fletcher, I appreciate it and will take it into consideration.

-Hev

seasons greetings ;)

Fletcher...were can I hear or buy a recording you have engineered?
Perhaps you can link me to something?

Thanks

g

That's a great thread Harvey, I've read a couple of the 15! pages and you should be proud of that.

I will read more tomorrow, a very very great thread indeed! Thanks a lot!

Peace.

Woop! Woop!

This topic will self distruct in a few days.

Clear the air lock - Woop Woop!

:)

Originally posted by Shailat:
Fletcher...were can I hear or buy a recording you have engineered?
Perhaps you can link me to something?

I did the lions share (like 95+%) of the engineering on "Autobiotics". Produced it too.

. I did "Suicide at the Wishing Well", about half of "Southside of the Sky" (though that pinhead Gary Katz remixed some of the stuff I produced, and needless to say, fucked it up pretty well), and one song called "Stains Like Water" (I think it's the 3rd one on the album) off their latest release called "Kicksnarehat".

Frankly, I don't really feel I "engineered" a project unless I take it from start to finish. There are a bunch of others I've worked on where it's been an overdub here, a basic there, maybe a mix...but not the whole 9 yards.

There have been a couple other projects that never saw the light of day. One, by a band called "Pinebox" was a really excellent record that ended up getting 'shelved' by Mercury. Such is life is showbiz I suppose.

I'm about to start a project with a band called "Weed", it should be out by the end of the summer (with any luck).