Could be that Pro audio folks tend to have better than average hearing across the spectrum and enjoy speakers that deliver exceptional clarity and precision. While the average listener tends to go for exagerrated lows and overly bright highs. It's all a matter of tastes I suppose. Personally, I like listening to any sound system that sounds natural, as close as you can get to being there. So some of these home systems do sound pretty rough to me.

I wouldn't say Bose is evil, but I don't own any of their stuff.

Bose: Better Sound Through Marketing... they have taught a lot of companies how to build a brand/image based on nothing but BS, smoke and mirrors... fucked up thing is that these tend to be some of the absolute most sucessful businesses in our industry... fancy that.

okay your comairing bose to lansings is that not a litle like comparing a kariokie machine to a u-47? seperate the types of listeners. before i started doing any of this recording, i would have loved a 3k set of bose speakers, with there auto room adjusting reciever. are the crap? hell no they are the best consumer home entertainment speakers money can buy. would i mix with one? hell no. but if i had one that would be the second place i would test my mix, the first would be my old kenwood exelion deck in my car.

i do like apples better than oranges though.

Yeah, but 2 things:

A. Bose pro-audio gear (panaray, monitors, etc.) is more expensive than many good brands.

B. Bose is trying to attract serious musicians to their products, which is silly.

Sounds like there's a little BS going on in here from people who haven't yet USED the product they're talking about (Bose's musician-aimed stuff). From what I've heard from one of the guys who actually tested the prototypes; the Bose stuff is actually really good, but won't give you the volume of some of the tried and true gear that is typically used to play live.

I'm not too fond of their consumer stuff, other than to say that it sounds okay until you actually listen. Kinda tubby and sizzly. Who cares? If someone likes the sound and compact footprint of their gear, it's their money.

one more thing remember that bose stuff always sounds better at home after some one who knows what there doing sets them up properly, i dont care what spekers you have lansing events gens or what they can sound like crap if joe average consumer brings them home plugs them into his awiwa all inone reciver then puts in freebird wile drinking some blueribbon.

What's with all the anger and hate directed at a product line you don't want to try (much less keep an open mind on) anyway?

Is there some INVASION of Bose products that we should all be aware of? Are they stopping sales of all the OTHER good stuff out there in the meantime?

Probably the best thing you can do is avoid them altogether and move along. (Didn't your daddy teach you anything about LIFE as well as pro audio? Flaming them here only helps PROMOTE them, ya see...)

I think their folded-path Table/Radio/CD player/tissue boxes are cute, and I chuckle at those who've bought them. And then I laugh at myself when I hear one and realize they're not all that horrible for what they're used for: Wallpaper music in the next millenium.

Would I mix on the other Bose products? Of course not. Do I occasionally check out what a mix sounds like on them? As much or as little as anything else that's handy in a "sneak up on it and check out the CD mix" situation. It's also good to learn what SUCKS and what doesn't, and make your choices based on that. All this paranoia and "Death to Bose" stuff just seems like a waste of karmic energy, IMHO.

Oh, and I've used the 800 and 802 (?) 6 drivers-in-a-black-box on- a-stand on plenty of Corporate AV gigs for Voice and walkin/walkout music. (where they put a gun to my head and FORCED me to use what was rented for us ahead of time) and they TOO didn't sound half bad, as long as the proper active equalizer was in-circuit. (without which, they DO sound awful). They weren't Apogee's, or EV's or whatever, but they weren't pretending to be. I did the gig, kept the sound clear and feedback free, and the check cleared the bank in a couple of days. No one got hurt, and I'd do it again if they're gonna pay me....using Bose's, or EAWs or whatever the hell they decide is cost-effective to do the gig. (WTF?!?!?)

For my own mixing or studio? No way. But like the Chia pet, Break-dancing, or Martha Stewart's next tv show, everything has its place in the cosmos, and how I feel about 'em won't make 'em go away. Nor should it.

Get over it, you'll live longer with less stress and agita.

My problem is, however, that Bose products are being reviewed by people who obviously have something to gain from it. If you've ever been to a bose expo, you know what I mean. They make fun of you if you try to say that Bose are shit, let me out. They charge a fortune, they are collectivly screwing consumers.

I'm simply tired of people believing in this crap! Go buy a JBL system, pay less! Home theatre and (ack!) home music systems can be quite nice. My AIWA stereo that I got from a will is better than any Bose system, and it's cheap and has nice features.

Do I harbor anger at Bose? Yes. But it's my right, I have anger to spare, and better Bose than innocent civilians (Iraq, Vietnam, WW-II, Korea, 100 years war, Crusades, etc!!!).

And after the 100th time of being forced to wear the dunce cap for these tapdancing monkeys, I'm getting pissed.

If they were cars, they'd be the damn subject of a Ralph Nader book, "Shitty Sound at any Volume."

Bose makes pretty good bookshelf speakers. All of their other products are all hoax and hype. They sell everyone on the "genius" of their technology, but if you have ears and compare them to others in the same price range, you realize that they are not very good. A friend loaned me his Bose 901 speakers for a while (because they were so great). What I found out is... they were like PA speakers with exageratted highs and fake, boomy lows. Not very realistic. I have heard the Wave Radios, and I wasn't impressed. I have seen articles about their new PA systems, where the speakers look like sticks, but I am highly skeptical! If you have to market your technology to sell products, then your products probably don't stand up based on performance very well. (Although Mackie seems to be an exception to this. They are good bang for the buck.)

The reason that normal consumers are in love with Bose is because they don't have the advantage of hearing exceptional studio monitors as we do. As studio musicians/producers/engineers, we're spoiled (and I mean that in a good way). After mixing down on a pair of Genelecs you're obviously gonig to find flaw in Bose.

On the other hand, I will give props to Bose for thier innovations in live sound. The personal towers are not only an engineering feat (no feedback, ever), but they also sound damn fine!!!

i give props to Bose for having such a sucessful marketing strategy that is based mostly on b.s. it's quite an accomplishment.

i've listened to a lot of their stuff at a Bose store in a mall, but the only real experience i've had with their products is with the "TriPort" headphones. the lows were ridiculous..."fake" and "boomy," as someone else said. i don't think i could ever enjoy music through something like that, even casual listening. the headphones ARE extremely light AND very comfortable, however.

youve gotta realize what they are used for. Waveradio.... to wake up. Id rather wake up to decent sounding music than BEEP BEEP BEEP. If Genelec made a clock, i'm sure it would sound better and im sure id own it. they don't so for the 15 seconds a day I hear it, when I can't even open my eyes and my mouth is pasted shut, ITS GREAT. For the poor people who can't tell if a Steely Dan album sounds better than a Neil Young album sonically, THEYRE GREAT. For a plane ride where i can't hear my CD player well because of noise, the TriPorts ARE GREAT. Do I wish I could get my Adams to sit on the tray in front of me and hope the person doesn't lean their chair back, YES! Do I have any ambition to buy any, NO. But I also have much better things to do than show a few people on this forum that all you have is anger and a big grudge against Bose... sorry about that. And also no one gets ripped off and buys the wrong thing if they just try them out and/or do their research. Its easy, I have never bought anything I'm not happy with because I have done the leg work. If a consumer is happy, even if its with $25 radio shack speakers, they didn't get ripped off.

The Swedish Chef wrote:
Der bass goes-a foombie-foombie and the highs goes-a tingy-tingy"

Now really, what else would you want?

Okay, I'll add 2 more cents to the pile...

Let's see, someone made reference to the fact that the 901's were the best speaker on the hifi market...Ummmm, I don't think so. Try anything from Vienna Acoustics, B&W, NHT, Sonus, Wilson, PSB, Paradign, Energy... (the list goes on, and on, and on, and on...) Best based on what - they had 9 4" drivers - no way possible to reproduce even half of the frequencies necessary to be a "full range speaker."

Also, reference was made to the fact that consumers buy Bose cuz they don't know what reference monitors sound like. Ummmm, I don't think so. Consumers buy Bose cuz everyone (sales people, magazines, television, internet advertising) tells them they are the best. They are also designed to be euphonic in the critical hearing range and then exxagerate the other ranges. People dig hearing Kenny G's Christmas album played on a warm fuzzy system. It doesn't matter that it may sound like Kenny G is playing his sax from a different orafice (which is entirely possible anyway).

Do I like Bose? Hell no. Would I buy Bose? Hell no! Have I heard many of their new incarnations? Yep - and I didn't like 'em. But you know what - if the consumer listens on them, I don't care. I know the general public is overly stupid about matters of audio. And if some engineer buys them, that's fine too. So, I'll have at least one leg up on him.

Joe's right. They do suck, but why the angst? Bose hasn't killed my dog or insulted my wife, so I'm okay.

J...

Cucco wrote: they had 9 4" drivers - no way possible to reproduce even half of the frequencies necessary to be a "full range speaker."

Perhaps a single 4", yes, but a group of them should combine with the piston area equivalent to a VERY large woofer, and be more efficient, require less power and have faster transient response.

Dan

Thanks for remembering that, Dan. I recall that theory many many years ago when they first marketed them; it was the official explanation of why there were no "woofers" as such in them.

It's weird science indeed, but again, let the buyer beware.

First, if all 9 were relegated to the bass/mid-bass frequencies, the high would severly be affected. Second, only 4 were relegated to bass. Four 4 inch drivers do not 20, 30 or even 40 Hz make. Also, no 4 inch driver would ever be able to create anything close to 20kHz, especially at volumes encountered in home theaters or music listening rooms (the markets these speakers were aimed at.) Need I remind you that these speakers (as with all Bose home speakers) were made from an untreated paper cone with a flimsy foam surround.

High frequency + High Amplitude = High heat.

High heat + paper = fire.

Just think, if they spent more money on the research of what actually DOES work and more time developing that stuff in-house, they would be unbeatable!

Actually, a 4" speaker will reproduce 20Hz. It'll be several Db down at that point. I suspect the same is true with 20kHz. If you put together several 4" drivers, you can produce a 20Hz wave that's useable and not pushing the limits of a single driver.

I'm thinking that there's some healthy EQ or DSP going on with these systems at a preamp level, right before the power amps.

Aren't the "sound sticks" units aimed at the SR market? If so, I don't see any need for 20-20 response if it's amplifying a bass rig. Think of how bright some guitar amps sound and they've usually got something like a 8-12" woofer in them.

As for the cone material and surround strength - are the speakers in a vented or sealed enclosure? If they're in a sealed enclosure, and you're using them in a multi driver setup, you could use untreated cones and low damping suspension to your advantage. What you percieve as flimsy may be that way for a reason.

I think you mean, btw, LOW frequency + high amplitude = high heat. My amps don't get nearly as warm when they're pushing high frequency tones as they do when it's sub-100Hz.

I'm not a huge fan of Bose's consumer gear - I don't think it sounds accurate to my ears. I do think some of their stuff sounds good, though. And I think you should perhaps study up about some of their engineering before you start to make commentary about what you percieve to be true about their products.

They actually employ a lot of engineers who do a lot of R&D. They have a large operation for developing new products. They are indeed successful because of marketing, but their stuff also does what they promise, at least to a degree. I don't think it's the most accurate sound out there, but when you're talking about speakers, that's kind of a religious argument.

i just did a google search to double check, and yep no one complaining about bose speakers catching fire.

also if im not mistacken the sub wolfer has two 6 inch drivers, and also remeber that somthing like 80% of sound under 60Hz is felt and not heard.

i have no problems with a company that is trying to do things difrantly and not just doing it the same way because we all know that works. whats wronge with inovation? if you dont like it dont buy it.

First, yes, a 4" cone will produce 20 hz. And 4 will do it with higher levels. But, think about it - four 4 inch woofers would have the approximate surface of an 8 to 9 inch woofer. Not too many of those can do 20 Hz without serious amplification behind them. (I'm thinking of the very pistonic Sunfire subs)

Then of course, you have to take into consideration the lack of rigidity found in the standard paper cones - there would not be enough stability for the kind of excursion required for 20 Hz reproduction.

BTW, yes, I meant "high frequency" not low frequency. Remember Newtons third law - energy can neither be created nor destroyed. In a woofer, or low frequencies, the energy is almost entirely transferred into pistonic motion. However, the same is not true for high frequencies/tweeters. Hence why most manufacturers build massive heatsinks or cooling systems into their tweeters. Not too many manufacturers put that much concern into the cooling of their woofers.

Oh, and of course Bose speakers aren't catching on fire :? Ralph Nader would be all over that! I was simply carrying my point to the next, but illogical conclusion. (If we all recall from 9th grade literature, it takes 456 degrees farenheit to ignite paper.) However, the would reach rather extreme tempertures for drivers and since paper is not very rigid and an insulator rather than a conductor, the response of the driver would change dramatically over the period of a normal listening session.

Now, all of this is simply to suggest that the 901s are NOT the greatest speaker on the market. Seriously, does anyone really believe that the 901s are the best speaker on the market --- Please :shock:

Multiple 4" Mid/High drivers? Sounds like comb filtering city to me? No? What about a 4" Paper Cone driver's polar pattern at 20KHz? Beams, anybody?

Multiple 4" drivers for flat, powerful 20Hz response? Sounds like a fairy tale to me ;)

Sorry - I don't buy it. Feel free to waste your money all you want to - not I. No sir...

Do what you like... It does not bother me AT ALL. Like someone else already said - Your "Dr. Bose" system will give me "A leg up" :D.

:cool:

I can't comment specifically on the engineering that is in these boxes, as I've not used one or seen one up close. Just trying to state that the THEORY that was used in them is there. It's all valid. Whether or not it works, well, that's borne out by the system's real-world performance, which I have on first hand reports is very good.

The units use a subwoofer cabinet for lows and the multiple 4" speakers in a mini "line array" for upper freq's. So, they're not trying to get 20Hz out of a 4" driver.

If it's a Bose sub, it's using Bose's patented enclosure which, IIRC is a sealed enclosure firing into a vented enclosure with a second vented enclosure to cover about 2 octaves of frequencies. Whether this is a good idea or not is debateable, as I find subwoofers really noticeable if they're up in that 2nd octave that Bose seems to use their sub to cover. When paired with the little cube speakers, though, they need to get those frequencies from SOME component of the system, so the sub it is. The good thing about having a wider range of freq's reproduceable by the sub is that you can use more gentle filters in your crossovers, reducing phase artifacts.

As for woofer cooling, I guess the larger motor structure serves as a heat sink most of the time, but vented pole pieces ARE pretty common on higher performance drivers.

Let me just clarify that I don't think Bose's stuff is the best on the market, I'm just attempting to clear the air about what people seem to be writing off as "junk science". Their gear, while it may not be your cup of tea, has many hours of R&D and testing behind it, and from what I've experienced with it, performs to spec. I can't really back up their claims about how "good" people find their sound, as it's really a religious argument at that point.

ps - it's 451 degrees farenheit.

MAProTulz wrote: ps - it's 451 degrees farenheit.

Thanks. :oops:

Pardon my momentary retardation.

Man, I'm enjoying this thread. :lol: I don't use Bose, and I wouldn't buy them, but for better or worse, I've had some experience with them over the years.

I'm not even going to BEGIN to get into any engineering facts or myths, I don't know that much about it.

HOWEVER, a few things to keep in mind:

1. They (at least the 800 series) are designed to work with an inline equalizer upstream of the amp. I'm willing to bet a LOT of folks who complain about these boxes have either missed this, or it's switched out of circuit, or whatever. (Without them, they are a squaking mess of sound.) You can try to fix it yourself with a big "smiley-face" eq curve, but that's just kids stuff.

2. If you want real bass (below 160-80 or down..) get the subs that they sell to go with them. No point in killing yourself or the speakers there.

3. Even the 800s are NOT very efficient speakers, and need a fair amount of power to sound decent. (The older versions were a lot worse.)

4. Back in the 70's (anyone remember those dayze?) A lot of them (the wooden box versions, precursers to the modern 800 series in plastic) were used as floor wedges in the early days of sound reinforcement and onstage foldback. (I have pics to prove it if anyone cares....hahaha) They'd use the wooden lids as the tilt-back to hold them at the right angle on the floor.

Believe me, there were a few that actually DID burst into flames; there are plenty of old roadies who can tell you about it. In most cases, it was due to sending too much level & bass (Gee, there's a surprise!) to them in an effort to get beefier sound out of them. In most cases, since they were so inefficient, they needed more power than most monitors, so the unlucky sound techs would push their not-so-ballsy amps into square-wave distortion and send near DC signal to the speakers, creating a VERY un-musical situation.

Speaking of that, at that time I had several Phaselinear 400 and 750 models in our rig, and we were warned that one of the bigger ones was prone to breaking down and sending ONLY DC to the speakers. (A VERY bad thing to do to speakers....) I recall two instances where these things just very quietly, without so much as a "pffft" simply fried all 8 drivers (per box) into oblivion. No spark, no smoke, no sound. (one touch to the ominously quiet cones revealed rock-solid, no-motion, severely burned voice coils.)

At roughly $25 per driver, it got pricey (this was 1970's dollars) to repair each one, but we did at the time. (You haven't lived till you've unscrewed all 8 (long before powered screwdrivers, as well)

It was a wacky time to do live sound, and Bose was one of only a few available choices back then. Things have certainly changed a lot since then. Live and learn.

Next time, we can discuss the old Community fiberglass "Googa Mooga" and LMF speakers, if you like...... 8)