kmetal might be a resource.

Thanks for the mention Dave. I know a few guys in RI, but they generally didn't work in Conn. pretty much any builder or weekend warrior can build a booth. getting the plans right, and then monitoring the work as its done, will assure that any builder you do get is clear on what needs to be done. Rod Gervias may know a crew in that area, since Conn, is where the powerstation is that he built. I'm certainly happy to help out, i dont do the actual construction anymore, since the projects i was doing were way to big for one person. Planning and supervision are necessary regardless of how experienced or not the builder is with studios. Maybe one of the guys from RI know someone in Conn. ill ask around.

kmetal, post: 455885, member: 37533 wrote: Thanks for the mention Dave. I know a few guys in RI, but they generally didn't work in Conn. pretty much any builder or weekend warrior can build a booth. getting the plans right, and then monitoring the work as its done, will assure that any builder you do get is clear on what needs to be done. Rod Gervias may know a crew in that area, since Conn, is where the powerstation is that he built. I'm certainly happy to help out, i dont do the actual construction anymore, since the projects i was doing were way to big for one person. Planning and supervision are necessary regardless of how experienced or not the builder is with studios. Maybe one of the guys from RI know someone in Conn. ill ask around.

Any references would be much appreciated!

It might be unlikely for a small project like this, but I'm hoping to find someone with the expertise to suggest an effective/efficient design given my particular situation and needs - or even to suggest alternatives to the room-within-a-room, if it makes more sense.

Otherwise I'll do my best to design something that incorporates the principles in Rod's book and get some help implementing it.

dvdhawk had a cool build diary going of his IFC shell studio, which was no small undertaking by any means. Ive built several studios, and so have several other well respected members here. So i would wager my entire stack, there's far more than enough knowledge and experience floating around here to get you as good a booth as you want, need, are willing to do.

if you fill out the info in the sticky "read this before" you post, you'll supply all the pertitnent info to get the convo rolling. Having Rod's book is a great start, and a good common reference point, since it contains all the drawings and concepts anyone needs. memebers here can help you apply that to your particular case.

kmetal, post: 455898, member: 37533 wrote: dvdhawk had a cool build diary going of his IFC shell studio, which was no small undertaking by any means. Ive built several studios, and so have several other well respected members here. So i would wager my entire stack, there's far more than enough knowledge and experience floating around here to get you as good a booth as you want, need, are willing to do.

if you fill out the info in the sticky "read this before" you post, you'll supply all the pertitnent info to get the convo rolling. Having Rod's book is a great start, and a good common reference point, since it contains all the drawings and concepts anyone needs. memebers here can help you apply that to your particular case.

Thanks kmetal! I don't see the "read this before" post - but here is some initial info for now. And, I will take some pictures and upload them later this evening.

I will use this space almost exclusively for recording spoken voice at conversational volume for audio drama. Occasionally a raised voice for dramatic scenes, and very occasionally for custom foley work if we can't find the right stock audio.

Up til now I've been recording around the noise, but this has had a serious impact on getting things done. I'd like to be able to record at any time, regardless of time of day or weather (thunder is rare enough not to be an issue).

External noise sources which have been a problem in the past include:
- sawmill: the bandsaw which produces a spike around 240Hz
- sawmill: backup warning signals on heavy equipment
- sawmill: trucks entering/leaving the lot
- occasional passing traffic
- rain on windows
- frogs outside window

What I have to work with is a room which was once a garage, converted to an indoor space:
- Room dimensions are about 23'x23'.
- Steel framing, 8" walls.
- concrete slab floor with laminate flooring.
- I *think* the ceiling has two layers of sheetrock, and some fluffy cotton stuff for insulation in the open (steel) rafters above.
- Four typical vinyl double-hung windows, about 3'x5'.
- French door/window assembly, about 6' wide.
- There is a weird junction between walls and floor (photo soon)

I'm not sure if I should attempt to isolate this entire room, or build an isolation room within it.

Attached files

hi Komen. My humble apologies, there was at one time a sticky, that listed the basic info people should supply. Ill have to ask one of the mods if we can supplement it. anyway, you covered alot of the stuff that was on it anyway, two things missing would be budget and time frame. Also what level in DB is the sawmill, at the property line, insides the garage, and outside it?

Have you considered something like a whisper room? You might be able to save yourself some headaches.

i think you picked the best location for a booth in that room, should you go that route. Building booth is going to require some modification to the interior of the garage, and at that point it really starts to make sense to consider doing the whole garage. i guess it also depends where you were planning on having the gear, and if 8x12 was inner finished, or outer dimensions. isolation and acoustic treatments knock at least 1.5' off each dimension when built within an existing structure.

if you look at the two sketches and compare the new isolation wall footage, its about 60' to do a booth, and 88' to do the whole room. 18' equates to 5 sheets of drywall, and 10 2x4's. so about an extra hundred bucks. and that nearly doubles usable space!

beyond that, it will sound way better in there, require way less work, and any carpenter can build (should be able to build) four square walls. if you consider resale value of the house maintaining the single larger space will be more broadly appealing than a random booth taking up half the space. the booth also creates a lot of wasted space for the walking path to get to the open side of garage from the house. some of it could be storage, but some has to be open for walking. doing the entire room also keeps your hvac modifications simple. treating a booth takes a lot of thought since, both in noise considerations, and design and space. im no hvac expert at all, its my weakest area, so i use kiss theory, and professional guidance there. i also dont hate the electrical panel in the booth pic, but i dont love it either.

from experience, building a booth, is going to take more effort, money, and deliver inferior results, compared to doing the whole room. its your project, and i have no attachment to your decisions. i offer my opinions, having been lucky enough to work in some pretty cool rooms, on both sides of the glass, and build from the ground up. an open room wiis much less complicated to build, and will feel and sound much better. some removable window plugs can let natural light in, and fresh air too.

one thing im very curious about is the ceiling construction details of the garage. im also wondering about any other sort of support columns, or pipes that arent depicted.

other than that, its looking good so for. i commend you for planning and reading. its the only way to be satisfied that you started off on the right foot.

one thing that can save some $ is re-purposing the existing drywall in the garage, and packing it in the wall bay, instead of throwing it away. its 3-6db is sound reduction you dont have to pay for!

anyway those are just some quick thoughts.

p.s out of laziness, i didn't indicate the wall and window openings on the room drawing.

Attached files

Hope you don't mind if I quote in-line as I go!

Just want to mention again that this is a finished garage - it was fully converted after the previous owner built a larger, separate detached garage. Not sure if that was clear since you refer to it as "the garage" a few times.

> two things missing would be budget and time frame.

Budget: This is rough. I guess it depends on how much labor I'm putting in. Thinking abstractly, once I imagine getting above $4K or so I get a little nervous.

Time frame: Do you mean, when do I need it completed by, or when am I ready to start? I'd be ready to start within a couple of weeks. Completion time isn't a huge factor. Some time in spring/summer, I guess?

> Also what level in DB is the sawmill, at the property line, insides the garage, and outside it?

I have no clue. I have a Zoom H4N that I could record with but I have no idea how to calibrate it to a standard measurement. This might be a good time to point out that I have pretty substantial hearing loss: I rely on my sound designer to tell me if my recordings are any good, with regard to noise levels.

> Have you considered something like a whisper room?

They would probably make sense in a couple of different ways, not the least of which is I could take it with me if I ever sell this place. But they strike me as expensive - $10K+ for 8'x10' - and aesthetically they leave me kind of cold. All that foam... (BTW I already have 7 4'x8'x2" fiberglass panels that I picked up used about a year ago).

> Building booth is going to require some modification to the interior of the garage, and at that point it really starts to make sense to consider doing the whole garage.

My initial hope was to do the entire room - but there were so many unknowns (windows? ceiling? That big french door / window thing?)... I thought a booth would be the option with the smallest amount of uncertainty.

I am also concerned about the room dimensions: it's basically a square, which I understand is the worst possible shape. Especially with the ceiling being an unknown, I don't know if the isolation would be good enough to prevent standing waves/modes/nodes/whatever with noise from outside, like trucks entering/leaving the sawmill lot.

And, I would really hate to lose those windows - and the ability to open them. Not sure what I would do about that if I were to build out the whole room.

> it also depends where you were planning on having the gear,

I guess that's some of the good news - since this is primarily for audio drama dialogue, the only gear I need is a microphone and something to record on. I've been using a large diaphragm condenser mic directly into the Zoom H4N, which has produced OK results so far.

> and if 8x12 was inner finished, or outer dimensions.

It was for the outer dimensions. That french door arrangement on the right side limits what I can do there, although I have considered sealing up or moving that door - it would free up some layout options and also allow me to deal with what is surely a problem area in terms of outside noise getting in.

> if you look at the two sketches and compare the new isolation wall footage, its about 60' to do a booth, and 88' to do the whole room. 18' equates to 5 sheets of drywall, and 10 2x4's. so about an extra hundred bucks. and that nearly doubles usable space!

I would definitely spring for the extra $100.

> I also dont hate the electrical panel in the booth pic, but i dont love it either.

That panel is already there. It's been impossible to get an electrician out here for simple rewiring jobs, relocating the panel is probably a no-go!

> Some removable window plugs can let natural light in, and fresh air too.

I have been wondering about the windows! I do need to be able to open them when the room is not in use for recording (don't laugh but I'm civilizing a feral cat who doesn't get along with my domestic cat - this is "his room" and I frequently need to leave a window open so he can come and go at will. Sorry for the mundane family details!).

So, do window plugs isolate well enough not to compromise the rest of the isolation efforts? Can they be built of something transparent (though I guess moving 3'x5' sheets of glass in and out of place might be a bit risky)?

> one thing im very curious about is the ceiling construction details of the garage.

I'm going to send you a link via private message that includes an attic pic. I should have thought about this before - I put together some web pages awhile ago in anticipation of this project. I'd post it here if I weren't congenitally paranoid about people knowing where I live.

> im also wondering about any other sort of support columns, or pipes that arent depicted.

No other support columns. There are two weird things though:

- The junction between the walls and the floor has this strange "gap" that the previous owner dealt with by building this little drywall ledge thing. It would actually be nice to make this go away if I isolate the whole room.

- There are... storage lockers, or something... built diagonally into the far corners of the room that apparently were used to store the previous owners' kids' toys and stuff. The consideration here is: they have no laminate flooring. So if I remove them, I have two corners of the room that are bare concrete, or I have to refloor the room.

> one thing that can save some $ is re-purposing the existing drywall in the garage, and packing it in the wall bay, instead of throwing it away. its 3-6db is sound reduction you dont have to pay for!

So, this means removing the interior drywall and putting it somewhere else?

Thanks for engaging me on this! I'm within weeks of wrapping the first episode of my audio drama and it would be great to have this built out for episode two!

I'm going to get a couple of additional pics and then send you a private message with the link to photos, floorplans, etc. in case it's helpful.

hey there, i clicked the link, and looked at the pics. 4k is doable possibly in the DIY range, and more like 6-10k with a contractor. you can probably get what you need close to your budget with a combination of DIY and hired help.

the zoom H4n is a cool little device, ive used my cousins several times. for a DB meter all you need is an app for your phone, or a basic one from online. usually the phone apps are good enough for ballpark, my iphone is seems about 8db off which is technically alot, but ballpark.

those corner units in the pics look easy enough to remove, and im not sure what you mean about a gap at the wall junctions.

as far as the drywall goes, some or all of the existing drywall is going to have to come down. if taken down neatly, it can be easily cut into large pieces and installed in the wall bays of the garage (which im calling it that just for reference, i can call it whatever you want).

the window plugs can be on hinges, and be finished as to blend in with the wall surface treatment as well. there's no compromise to the integrity of the isolation as long as the plugs are sealed and sized properly. nothing fancy at all.

i wouldn't worry about it being 23x23, since your doing mostly vocals, modal issues wont come into play, were talking under/around 60hz here with a 23' dimension. beyond that it provides plenty of space to for bass trapping. its not ideal but its not much of a problem. the ceiling is more of an issue, but is easy enough to deadedn with acoustic tile of panels ect. the floor is fine as is, maybe an area to calm foot noise near the mic.

the big question is the ceiling. i saw a duct, blown in insulation, and steel trusses. it comes down to how miuch addition weight they can support, if any at all. it can often be cheaper and easier to frame a ceiling for your new walls, than add clips and channel to the existing ceiling. usually severe space restrictions is when those options become most valuable.

> For a DB meter all you need is an app for your phone, or a basic one from online.

How are the $15 units on Amazon?

> if taken down neatly, [existing drywall] can be easily cut into large pieces and installed in the wall bays of the garage

"Wall bays" - spaces between the studs?

> window plugs

Would anything that provides mass and an air seal work? Is it feasible it to make them from something transparent (laminated glass, polycarbonate)? Otherwise would I construct something similar to a section of wall, with sheetrock and rock wool?

> the big question is the ceiling. i saw a duct, blown in insulation, and steel trusses. it comes down to how miuch addition weight they can support, if any at all.

How could I determine that?

> it can often be cheaper and easier to frame a ceiling for your new walls,

How much headroom would I give up in this scenario? And would any supports need to be added within the room?

> than add clips and channel to the existing ceiling.

In this case, would the clips and channel be applied to the interior or on the attic side?

EDIT: What about the french door / window situation? Would I be replacing that?

Thanks for wading through these questions!

hey man, glad to help whenever i can. its makes me happy to see people caring about their studio, and not wanting to waste money. theres too much snake oil, and mis-guidance out there in acoustics.

komencanto, post: 455935, member: 50097 wrote: Would anything that provides mass and an air seal work? Is it feasible it to make them from something transparent (laminated glass, polycarbonate)? Otherwise would I construct something similar to a section of wall, with sheetrock and rock wool?

Mass is Mass. There's often windows in studios. the principal, is plug/door/window half as to match or exceed the mass of the wall. and be sealed, which you know. glass with that much mass (thickness in this case) could run your entire budget, just for the glass. the plug on hinges or sliders, is usually the next best thing. theres also windows that are acoustics windows, made to fit into standard window openings, and look like a typical window.

komencanto, post: 455935, member: 50097 wrote: How could I determine that?

the attic load bearing- im not familiar with that type of truss system, maybe its in the house plans, google, a construction/structural engineering website? theres alot of info online, but i would have a professional have a look before moves were made. This is another advantage of an independent ceiling for the iso shell. it takes a bunch of calculations of out if, and simplifes the HVAC isolation process.

komencanto, post: 455935, member: 50097 wrote: How much headroom would I give up in this scenario? And would any supports need to be added within the room?

a minimum of .75". whether or not mid-span are needed depends on the design. engineered joists would freely span the whole way, while also holding the new drywall. i dont have a span chart handy, but probably something like a 12" engineered joist would probably handle it. its basically a laminated type beam, or an I joist, with a laminate header/footer, and plywood(osb) center section. last time i checked menards had them online for somewhere around $150 each, and youd need about 12, spaced 24" O.C, to do the entire room. thats a bit ahead of things, but just for conversations sake i mention it.

komencanto, post: 455935, member: 50097 wrote: In this case, would the clips and channel be applied to the interior or on the attic side?

From what i'd guess based on the pic i saw, the clips would be placed on the attic joists, between the joists, and where the drywall is currently. i think any added mass to the actual roof, would be done by applying additional plywood to the exterior, and re-installing the roofing shingles. that would likely be well over budget, and an extensive undertaking in this case.

komencanto, post: 455935, member: 50097 wrote: EDIT: What about the french door / window situation? Would I be replacing that?

You could modify it, you could also do a double doorway, or plug type deal there too. it depends on what your requirements are for the door. Part of the beauty of decoupled walls and ceilings, is they allow for the least modification to the excisting structure. so you could leave the door as-is ( weatherstripped well).

DB-meter forgot that one. those amazon one ones seem fine. between one of those and a free phone app, you'd have a good idea what your looking at. i used a $30 radio shack digital spl meter for a while, even on gigs where noise ordinances and police were involved. so it doesn't have to be anything fancy or hyper accurate. if you get one with an output, you can use to to do the acoustic testing on your room later down the line. thats the one thing i'd make sure if you were gonna get one. i think most do have them.

I just priced plugs for four 3'x5' windows with Acoustic Sciences and with shipping they're pushing $6000. So I guess that's definitely a DIY item...

> the principal, is plug/door/window half as to match or exceed the mass of the wall.

Not sure how to read this - half as much as the wall, or as much?

If as much - that's the equivalent of 4 layers of 5/8" drywall, or 140+ lbs per 3'x5' window plug - and 200+ lbs for each 3'x7' door plug (assuming one for the french door, and one for the fixed window next to it). Does that sound about right?

I also contacted the company that manufactured the steel framing used for the house, and which drew up the house plans, to get their opinion on the load-bearing capacity of the ceiling.

Im not surprised. It was 2k just for the glass (2x 4'x8' laminate) at Normandy Sound, and that was at a bit of a discount.

komencanto, post: 455950, member: 50097 wrote: > the principal, is plug/door/window half as to match or exceed the mass of the wall.

Not sure how to read this - half as much as the wall, or as much?

If as much - that's the equivalent of 4 layers of 5/8" drywall, or 140+ lbs per 3'x5' window plug - and 200+ lbs for each 3'x7' door plug (assuming one for the french door, and one for the fixed window next to it). Does that sound about right?

Sorry, HAS to meet or exceed the mass of the wall. it can be simple as a simple wood frame, stuffed with drywall, and finished with luan or whatever the acoustic treatment would be for that position the studio.

the theory being- if mass is the same (preferably slightly exceeding), and its airtight, the penetration in the wall doesn't exist.

komencanto, post: 455950, member: 50097 wrote: I also contacted the company that manufactured the steel framing used for the house, and which drew up the house plans, to get their opinion on the load-bearing capacity of the ceiling.

You Da' Man! Straight from the source. Excellent. Looking forward to hearing what they say.

I put up some info related to this project here: http://159.65.44.67/studio/ - I'll add anything else of use there as I go along.

The site includes architectural drawings, photos, and some "problem noise" audio samples recorded with a Zoom H4n - of dubious value but I guess they can't hurt. I have a cheap SPL meter on the way from Amazon.

It turns out the company that built my house framing is out of business (I emailed another steel company by the same name). I'm going to contact a local structural engineer to see about the load-bearing capacity in this room.

How much mass would I be adding to the ceiling? Currently it looks like there's a single 5/8" layer of drywall, with loose insulation between the open steel rafters above. Just want to have a starting point of discussion for the structural engineer.

About that weird 6" drywall box/ledge around the perimeter of the floor - it seems to be there because the foam foundation insulation protrudes in further than wall boundary. I took a couple more pics of its interior and put them on the site.

Thanks for your thoughts!

hey. The Audio files prompted me to save them, which i dont do. im not sure if its possible to make the link start playing via my default media player on this laptop. You could post the files here, use a dropbox link, or something like this Html media player widget for your site. ive been using this ones' free option on my protoype website, and its worked flawlessly so far for a month. it plays full fidelity A/V files. https://www.cincopa.com/

komencanto, post: 455953, member: 50097 wrote: How much mass would I be adding to the ceiling?

Assuming a clip/hat channel system (like a Risc-1 clip system) which provides the most isolation, and support the most weight. For simplicity, we'll assume the existing hat channel can be re-used i the iso assembly, and existing drywall used as added mass in the walls, or elsewhere.

potential(max.) additional load (existing ceiling):

• 3x layers 5/8's (Type X) drywall
• Risc Clips (spaced according to directions)
• screws/hardware
• R- Value insulation (loft)
• Finish acoustic treatment/hardware (acoutsic tile, foam, ceiling cloud)
• isolation clips/hardware for Hvac

Those are the major players in that area.

komencanto, post: 455953, member: 50097 wrote: About that weird 6" drywall box/ledge around the perimeter of the floor - it seems to be there because the foam foundation insulation protrudes in further than wall boundary. I took a couple more pics of its interior and put them on the site.

ahhhh, the old 'cover it up, nobody will see it'. ive always disliked that addage.

The nice thing about an independent ceiling, besides being cheaper and easier to install, is its easier to calculate, and imposes no additional load on the existing walls and ceiling. it can also hold significantly more weight as well. steel studs offer lower load bearing than wood, until heavy guage steel is involved.

you may want to think about green glue, if load bearing is an issue. if i had to venture a guess, i would say your probably looking at clips and 2 layers of drywall tops, as additional mass on the walls and ceiling. i wouldn't be shocked if the ceiling supported little to no additional weight, but thats just a guess on my part.

the engineer will be helpful, and it should be easy to narrow things down once the load bearing is determined.

cheers!

> The Audio files prompted me to save them, which i dont do.

Sorry about that - I updated the audio samples page with some HTML5 audio elements, which should work in most browsers.

http://159.65.44.67/studio/audio-samples/

(might need to refresh page)

> the engineer will be helpful, and it should be easy to narrow things down once the load bearing is determined.

OK, I'll contact the engineer and get back here afterward. Thanks!

couple quick comments. Overall the noise didnt seem that bad from the saw mill, especially considering the Zoom was at full Gain. It could certainly be edited out easily enough, which is cheapest, but not ideal. You may be able to get by with some beefy Gobos, and leave the room as is. My Mentor did something similar when he was in a studio that had just one large main room, he made a simple booth with gobos for vocals and cabs, and it worked fine. he had a window in it and everything. it would be interesting to hear sample of you doing voice work with while the sawmill is making noise, to get a feel for the dynamic between the two. (Kurt Foster might have a good recipe for a beefy gobo-booth)

The meter will help determine things more clearly. im interested in the DB increase when the heat kicks on. it sounded like a fairly hi velocity fan, which is the opposite of what the studio needs.

also, the audio worked, but a bit laggy, not sure if thats my side. Do you have a link or something to how you added that player, or what to search for? id like to experiment with different kinds of players for my site while im putting it together.

also- im curious, are you looking to have a studio/booth anyway or are you looking just for whatever calms the mill down enough. is the goal to not hear the mill at all, or just not hear it on the recordings? are you planning on upgrading or adding on as far as gear goes ie, headphones, compressor, pre amp, studio monitors? How far is the sawmill / road from the garage roughly?

-cheers

kmetal, post: 455959, member: 37533 wrote: Overall the noise didnt seem that bad from the saw mill, especially considering the Zoom was at full Gain. It could certainly be edited out easily enough, which is cheapest, but not ideal.

OK, we're getting into the gory details of my situation, so I apologize in advance for boring you, but this is why I need a space to record where I'm sure I'm getting quality audio:

I'm not editing or mixing any audio myself (aside from throw-away scene mixes while working out writing/dialogue). My partner / sound guy, who has professional experience, handles all of that. He's very good, and his plate is full with the sound design, music composition, mixing, etc - I have to get clean dialogue to him.

I can't edit it myself beforehand because my hearing **sucks** - substantial hearing loss in both ears. In terms of noise, I can't judge if I have a usable recording or not. In fact, it was my partner who first detected the sawmill noise.

So, I can't risk recording during sawmill business hours. Basically I have Sundays - some Sundays my voice isn't cooperating, some Sundays I have other obligations, some Sundays I'm just pissed off or tired or otherwise just not feeling it. It's a huge drag on getting stuff done. When the stars do align, I need to be able to take advantage of it.

he made a simple booth with gobos for vocals and cabs, and it worked fine. he had a window in it and everything.

You mean he made a booth out of gobos?

I do have a 7' bi-fold gobo made from 2x4, filled with Roxul, and backed with hardboard. I use this to record now.

I added a few pics that show my current setup to the bottom of the Pictures page:

http://159.65.44.67… (might need to refresh)

Those light grey panels are the 4'x8' 2-inch OC703.

also, the audio worked, but a bit laggy, not sure if thats my side. Do you have a link or something to how you added that player, or what to search for? id like to experiment with different kinds of players for my site while im putting it together.

If you take a look at the web page source code, you can just add similar HTML to your page and it will work in any browser that supports the HTML5 audio element:

<audio controls loop>

<source src="/path/to/your/file.wav" type="audio/wav"></source>

<p>Sorry, your browser does not seem to support the <code>audio</code> element.</p>

</audio>

<p>

<strong>Download:</strong>

<a href="/path/to/your/file.wav">WAV</a>

</p>

No-frills but simple, which I like.

Looks like there are some online HTML generators that will create the code for you, like:

http://scriptgenera…

I'm a computer programmer / web app developer by day - I'd be glad to lend a hand if anything comes up that I could help out with!

also- im curious, are you looking to have a studio/booth anyway or are you looking just for whatever calms the mill down enough. is the goal to not hear the mill at all, or just not hear it on the recordings?

Well, I can't usually hear the mill anyway :) It's just the recordings - to be able to record at any time, and to remove the uncertainty over whether I have a good recording or not.

are you planning on upgrading or adding on as far as gear goes ie, headphones, compressor, pre amp, studio monitors?

At some point I do foresee upgrading. I have the Zoom H4n, a Rode NT1A mic, and Sony MDR-7506 headphones. My Zoom has actually been fairly serviceable - silent and very simple without a lot of clutter. But it's also taken some knocks over the last couple of years, and when time comes to replace it I'm going to consider my options. My primary interest would be to improve sound quality, and possibly to streamline the workflow.

I have really simple needs - just capture good audio, then suck it into my computer and work with it there. I use Linux exclusively, which is not quite as audio production-friendly as a Mac, but it works for what I need to do.

This is a very recent interest on my part (the last year has been one hell of a crash course in a lot of new skill-sets I never thought I'd be involved in), but it's strong enough for me to spend some time and cash on it for the sake of the activity itself, even if I don't get a massive audience, or any audience at all.

> How far is the sawmill / road from the garage roughly?

The saw itself is 510 feet away. The closest entrance to the lot (for trucks) is 230 feet away.

youve got several things working in your favor as far as your requirements, since its just a matter of the mic not hearing the noise. you might be able to get by with some window plugs and something for the door, along with a booth/gobos, and maybe swapping out the mic for a sure sm-7b, or EV-re20. both world class voice mics, both under $500, both dynamic mics. A common link among in the situation is the use of condesner mics. your rode, and zoom, both use condenser mics, which are highly sensitive, and have an extended frequncy response. An sm 58 rejects a remarkable amount of sound, right on stage next to the drum kit.

you really have alot of options, and i have little doubt that switching mics will get you at least 80%, if not all the way to where you want to be. based on what i can guess from what i've seen heard, between some window/door plugs, a mic swap, and a gobo booth, would probably be all you need to get where you want to be.

steel framing offers the acoustic effect of resilient channel on wood framing. so acoustically your wall is equal to a wood framing member plus RC channel. this makes steel superior to wood, until you get to the 2-3 sheet (load bearing) limit of light gauge steel framing, and wood becomes superior.

do you have a dynamic mic you can try? and typical stage mic would be fine, doesn't matter which one. id be curious to see if the sawmill shows up on a recording done with one.

komencanto, post: 455960, member: 50097 wrote: You mean he made a booth out of gobos?

yes. he had a few set up similar to yours on the floor which surrounded the singer completley, and a couple over the top for the roof, and had like a doorway. he used some clamps to hold it all together semi-perm. its not uncommon for studio baffles to be stuffed with drywall, steel, mass in general, in between the absorbent material. they're massive to help contain the sound, similar to those clear 'drum shields' drummer love... there used to have pics of the baffle booth on the studio site but they're not up there anymore.

komencanto, post: 455960, member: 50097 wrote: The saw itself is 510 feet away. The closest entrance to the lot (for trucks) is 230 feet away.

cool. sound drops 6db every time you double the distance from the source. 6db is a perceived drop of 50% in sound level.

komencanto, post: 455960, member: 50097 wrote: I'm a computer programmer / web app developer by day - I'd be glad to lend a hand if anything comes up that I could help out with!

awesome, thanks for the link. i'm a pro sound engineer / studio designer by day (night). im working on making a site for my freelance work, and im a newb with the web design stuff. not sure if your familiar with Warren, RI, but thats where the nicest studio i built is. www.triadrecording.com check 'em out when you get a sec, i did both. Tony, the owner, is my audio mentor.

anyway, your lucky in a sense that you have some options that may require little or no construction at all.

what are you using for a DAW on your computer? reaper is Linux compatible, open source, and w10/mac compatible as well.

cheers!

you might be able to get by with some window plugs and something for the door, along with a booth/gobos

I would bet the windows and french door/window are probably the major culprit here. This sounds like a good first step - I'd need the plugs even if I build out the entire room, so not much work lost if I have to go that route!

The french door/window are flush with the interior of the room - any suggestions for holding the door plugs in place with a good seal? Would I build a frame for them, or brackets or something? Or just improvise?

do you have a dynamic mic you can try?

I don't have one - I could get one, but my understanding is that large-diaphragm condensers are best for spoken voice. If the door/window plugs don't do the trick I'm going to go ahead and build out the room or build a booth.

www.triadrecording.com

I'm getting an empty page there!

what are you using for a DAW on your computer?

I'm using ardour (https://ardour.org) . It does everything I need - but again, that isn't much! Mostly I put together test dialogue edits, most of which get thrown away. First I use "stock audio" appropriate for the scene to get some background context. Then I record all the dialogue with myself in all the roles. I pitch my voice up / down and use stereo separation to make the "characters" seem distinct. It sounds a little freaky but you get used to it after awhile, and it serves the purpose of nailing down the dialogue before handing the script to an actor. You'll wear out an actor's good will pretty quickly if you constantly tweak the script and ask for repeated takes.

Once I have actual dialogue tracks from the rest of the actors, I'll edit them into the mix with the desired pacing and timing, generate dialogue stems for each, and hand the stems over to my sound guy who creates the background, sound effects, music - and makes it all sound beautiful!

Ardour sounds cool. its very popular from what i could tell yesterday.

komencanto, post: 455979, member: 50097 wrote: The french door/window are flush with the interior of the room - any suggestions for holding the door plugs in place with a good seal? Would I build a frame for them, or brackets or something? Or just improvise?

improvise is for jazz, not acoustics, lol. In the book, in the doors and windows section i believe, there is a diagram of a plug/door in a typical window. the example shows a case where there is a window A/C in the window that needs to be accessible, without hurting isolation. it could possibly be in the Hvac section, not doors and windows. It looks like you can flush mount a plug, having it rest within the window sill. some gasketing (weatherstrip), and latch(es), will keep it sealed tight, and you can mount it on hinges, or make it completely removable.

picture the plug as a 1x2 pine frame, with layers of drywall within it, and some fiberglass or foam, on the side facing the room. thats the basic idea. the arrows in the photo shows where the plug would go.

komencanto, post: 455979, member: 50097 wrote: I don't have one - I could get one, but my understanding is that large-diaphragm condensers are best for spoken voice. If the door/window plugs don't do the trick I'm going to go ahead and build out the room or build a booth.

probably about 75% or more of spoken word is done on dynamic mics. The Sm7/RE-20 are the world standard broadcast mics. There's no inherent quality drop, just because a mic is a dynamic. It's worth testing, if you can, since it might demonstrate a solution. If you use a shure sm57/58/7, or ev RE-20, for the test, i would wager very heavily, you get a better end result. both in sonic quality of your voice, and background noise. their industry standard mics for voice for a reason. i say this as a former owner of the NT1a, and a user of more mics than i can list, since i started playing around with recording gear in '99.

komencanto, post: 455979, member: 50097 wrote: I'm getting an empty page there!

sorry, try this, no idea what happened. http://triadrecording.com/

also, not sure if he's still a member here but @ethanwiner, may be able to offer some thoughts. he owns real traps, and is based out of Conn. if hes not around here, it might be worth a call to real traps.

(fwiw, not shleping products, i have no ties)

OK, I got the SPL meter - just want to drop some measurements here. They're up to +/- 1dB off, since the readings fluctuate and I'm averaging in my head.

39dB - without saw, at night

67dB - with saw, at open door
43dB - with saw, at closed door
44dB - with saw, at window
42dB - with saw, at microphone, behind gobo

In the book, in the doors and windows section i believe, there is a diagram of a plug/door in a typical window.

In the Gervais book? I see no information on plugs in those sections (or in contents/index). I have the first edition - are plugs in the second edition?

The french door is flush with the interior wall, so there is no space to insert a plug into. I could fit one into the recess on the outside - but then the plugs are exposed to the elements. I'm thinking about a "cap" design - basically a frame loaded with sheetrock, then I could put plugs on hinges on the frame, like double doors. No idea if it would work.

Attached files

The structural engineer referred me to another guy, who suggested I talk to the manufacturer (of the steel trusses) - who is out of business. I think the project is too low-rent to attract anyone's interest. This is getting a bit discouraging.

I'm thinking again about building an isolation room instead of converting the entire space. Or, using another space.

I do have a spare bedroom that I could convert, ~10'x10': http://159.65.44.67…

I've also got a three-bay garage, and only use 1.75 of them (a car and a bike): http://159.65.44.67…

komencanto, post: 456028, member: 50097 wrote: OK, I got the SPL meter - just want to drop some measurements here. They're up to +/- 1dB off, since the readings fluctuate and I'm averaging in my head.

39dB - without saw, at night

67dB - with saw, at open door
43dB - with saw, at closed door
44dB - with saw, at window
42dB - with saw, at microphone, behind gobo

this is great news. were talking about a 3db difference at the mic position. im very confident just switching to a dynamic mic would do the trick. Not that the other options aren't valid, just bare minimum, mic swap would work.

komencanto, post: 456028, member: 50097 wrote: In the Gervais book? I see no information on plugs in those sections (or in contents/index). I have the first edition - are plugs in the second edition?

yes, sorry, i refer to that as 'the book'. i also have edition one, my print copy is/was at the studio, i have a digital copy, let me see if i can find it, my stuff is everywhere right now.

komencanto, post: 456039, member: 50097 wrote: The structural engineer referred me to another guy, who suggested I talk to the manufacturer (of the steel trusses) - who is out of business. I think the project is too low-rent to attract anyone's interest. This is getting a bit discouraging.

I'm thinking again about building an isolation room instead of converting the entire space. Or, using another space.

I do have a spare bedroom that I could convert, ~10'x10': http://159.65.44.67…

I've also got a three-bay garage, and only use 1.75 of them (a car and a bike): http://159.65.44.67…

Acoustical projects are filled with these types of things, i wouldn't get too discouraged. hes not thew only structural engineer in Conn. beyond that, there's plenty of professors, students, and probably engineering forums, that could shed some light. i didn't see a whole lot when i searched 'load bearing of steel roof trusses'. between builders, contractors, supply houses, etc, there's always roadblocks, and compromises.

unless the bedroom has a concrete floor, id rule that out.

you could do a booth in the house, but it may be tough to get it done within budget unless you DIY roughly half of it. there's a whole set of things that need to be considered when contractors are involved. that said, with good planning, its relatively simple. there's also the resale value to think of, and the practical use for the rest of the room. maybe run some rough piping to it could be turned into a bathroom? this is where it's a close call between both, just doing an iso shell for the whole room.

presuming the garage has similar sound meter readings it has two main things going for it- concrete floor, possibly unfinished interior do there's less work removing existing materials, it wouldnt effect resale value as much, possibly increase it.

is the interior of the garage finished?

The garage may turn out to be the best option to stay within budget, should something permanent need to be built.

have you considered a smaller whisper room if your gonna have a booth in the house? seems like their 4x6 is around 4-5k list price. you might be able to get one used for steep discount, or maybe a new one from a reliable competitor.

also, as far as the existing door to the room your using now, first thing is to make sure all the seals are in tact, and that its not leaking air. what you described could work fine as far as the 'double door' goes. it could be a code violation which may or may not sway you one way or the other. it may be a case where mount the plug directly to the door, and add appropriate (secondary/redundant) seals, which makes it very close to a standard acoustic door. you could add layers of clear plexi glass as additional mass for the door. a nice thick theatre curtain could help as well.

there's plenty of options should the door come into play.

overall if i had to rate it in order based on cost and ease of use here is what i think so far.

1. try using dynamic mic
2. window/door plugs
3. make booth out of heavy duty baffles
4. build booth in garage
5. isolate entire room your currently in
6. build booth in room your currently in
   by the time all is said and done its going to be just as involved to build a booth in that room, than just do the entire room, all things considered.