All right,
Can someone explain sync/timecode to me?? I basically know what it does, but I still get kinda confused sometimes. Here's a scenario:

How would one sync a tapedeck (r2r or otherwise) with a DAW or DTR?? How stable would it be?

Also, is wordclock similar to sync, or is it just proving a stable outside sample rate to a digital device(s)?

Thanks for beginner-land,
Ian

Sync is the ability to lock together several time dependant devices so that they act as a single unit. To do that, you need some kind of stable time source so that every device is at the right spot at the same time. It's called time code, but there's a catch:

Let's say you're trying to synch a tape deck to an existing DAW song track. Well, tapes stretch a bit during recording and playback, so it may not be able to speed up and slow down fast enough to stay in synch with a digital track, plus the tape deck would need a motor that let's you vary the speed from an outside source.

A better way is to let the computer follow the tape. Computer stuff works VERY fast, so it would be better to play the song into the tape recorder, add time code to the tape, then synch all the computer gear to the tape's timing signal. That way, the computer can follow the tape, and if the tape slips a little bit, the computer stuff can catch up very quickly.

There are many types of time code available, but probably the most popular is MTC and SMPTE. For most work, the standard is HR:MN:SC:FR (hours, minutes, seconds, and frames, where 75 frames = 1 second).

Harvey,
Thanks a ton! :tu: That helps a bit. Haven't some people figured out how to vary the speed of a tapedeck to make it lock a little better? Like timecode-run motor or something? I can still see why the computer should lock to the tape though. Ok, how about wordclock??

Ian

Actually, I believe the frame rate is user determined to be either 30, 25, or 24 fps (frames per second) including drop frame rates. These are the way they are to correspond to television (30 fps) or film (24). Though I don't know more than that, or about "Drop Frame" which ends up at something like 29.97. I just use 30 all the time for music.

Steve Cruz
Cruzified Music
Florida

Well people . guess you've figured out that the computers have taken the novice engineer and put them up to the level of a pro almost overnight.What took years for the pro's to learn now takes months . You guys should be happy not getting stupid beginner questions .

Originally posted by Screws:
Actually, I believe the frame rate is user determined to be either 30, 25, or 24 fps (frames per second) including drop frame rates. These are the way they are to correspond to television (30 fps) or film (24). Though I don't know more than that, or about "Drop Frame" which ends up at something like 29.97. I just use 30 all the time for music.

Steve Cruz
Cruzified Music
Florida

Yup, Steve, when you're talking SMPTE, you have all those frame rate choices. I've settled on the 75 frame per second rate which is the standard for CD time code. Since I make so many edited one-offs, I just think in terms of 75 frames now. I know video and movie people use mostly SMPTE, but Either is valid, depending on which works best for a given situation. For syncing MIDI and computer audio tracks to my DA-38s, 75 FPS works best for me.

Originally posted by Ian MacGregor: Harvey, Thanks a ton! :tu: That helps a bit. Haven't some people figured out how to vary the speed of a tapedeck to make it lock a little better? Like timecode-run motor or something? I can still see why the computer should lock to the tape though. Ok, how about wordclock?? Ian

Ian, They DO make variable speed tape deck motors that can be slaved to a synchronizer signal. but they ain't cheap.

Well people . guess you've figured out that the computers have taken the novice engineer and put them up to the level of a pro almost overnight.

should read:

...that the computers have taken the novice engineer and put them up almost to the level of a pro overnight.

What took years for the pro's to learn now takes months.

well, being here on this forum might take a week in reading, but still years of experiencing all those things, and make them work out.;-)

You guys should be happy not getting stupid beginner questions.

You don't have to answer or read them, but there's no such thing as stupid questions...

This one in fact is quite an interesting beginner question:

I can still see why the computer should lock to the tape though. Ok, how about wordclock??

I'd like to add, that usually tape-machines run resolved to a synchronizer (ie Lynx). When working with tape and DAW, your wordclock has to be resolved to the TC on tape by a dedicated device like C-lab timemachine (a MUST, when working with video), Digidesign USD(their SSD is not worth the hassle) or a cheaper solution like the Rosendahl WIF. These (Word)Clock-Masters will sync your Audiohardware and output MTC to give positional reference to your sequencer. - With some luck, you even get them syncing in varispeed¿

When working free (without Wordclock sync), you are doomed by tapespeed-differences and little offset problems (as you certainly experienced;)
A workaround is to keep audiofiles short, so they can retrigger... and not run out of sync too much(LAP).

Niko

Screws Wrote
Actually, I believe the frame rate is user determined to be either 30, 25, or 24 fps (frames per second) including drop frame rates. These are the way they are to correspond to television (30 fps) or film (24). Though I don't know more than that, or about "Drop Frame" which ends up at something like 29.97. I just use 30 all the time for music.

29.97 is used for color video.
30 is for monochrome (black and white) video.
24 is used in film because the camra is running at this same rate.
FSK (frequ. shift key), is code used in Midi. 24 times per beat square wave.

Time code was use in early tape recorders as Cristal Sync (power applyed to a piece of quarts stone) and Interlock on a Magdubber (for film).

There are other forms of time code to, I had to pull out my college books for some of what I listed here so I don't think I'll go into those.

Raymond Ward
A.S. Recording Arts

There's a similar thread running in the Producers, Engineers and Hardware page titled; Digi 002. I have asked some of the same questions that have been asked here. Check it out, I look forward to any info you all might be able to offer... Fats

Well it has taken me quite awhile to get to the level I'm at now, and I do still work in analog.

Sorry, tried digital, didn't like it.

Maybe a different digital format than a computer like an ADAT would be OK, but I keep my computer separated from my studio except to upload to the internet.

Originally posted by Ian MacGregor:
All right,
Can someone explain sync/timecode to me?? I basically know what it does, but I still get kinda confused sometimes. Here's a scenario:

How would one sync a tapedeck (r2r or otherwise) with a DAW or DTR?? How stable would it be?

Also, is wordclock similar to sync, or is it just proving a stable outside sample rate to a digital device(s)?

Thanks for beginner-land,
Ian

Check out my thread on the "Micing,Tracking Mixing Forum" entitled: :"RecorderMan's Primer on TC".
I do not adress DAWS exactly per say...more of a general TC overview...with the help of an online PDF link.Still, it may shed some light for some...enjoy
:w: