Maybe some extra gain on the output?

You really should have this stuff down before you bring clients or singers into the studio.

Ditch the fet head for one. You don't need it with a 414.

when you are going into the UX8 are you going into the mic pre or the line inputs? The XLR is the mic pre. Use the 1/4" line inputs. You don't need to preamp the signal twice (or 3 times).

now you kids, get off my lawn.

HEY! If one preamp helps boost a mic to the level needed to record, THREE should be even better, right?
The Fethead wasn't designed to be used with a nice condenser like that,it was designed to be used with lower-output mics (ribbons and dynamics) - what KF said - ditch it. You are running a pretty "hot" mic (output-wise) into a little preamp, and then into a bigger preamp, then yet another preamp on the interface (laymen's terms, I admit), this is where your dirt is being generated.
Doesn't anyone understand GAIN STAGING anymore?

Thanks for the help guys. I was going into the XLR input on the UX8. Of course that is the problem. Rookie mistake.

With the fetheads, have you guys tried them? I find them really helpful, even on a C414. The UX8 preamps I usually use are a little noisy and hissy when you crank them up to record vocals. But using a fethead, I don't have to touch the noisy part of the preamp. I will try taking them off while using the Pro Channel though.

the pro channel should provide plenty of gain. Remember to keep all your inz' n outz @ unity gain.

Kurt Foster, post: 393432 wrote: remember to keep all your inz' n outz @ unity gain.

What about coming out of the compressor? I had it turned up a few dB as make-up.

i use a 414xls w/ an art 'pro mpa' pre, at home, and is sounds fine, and quiet. Learn the room, mic, then the pre. then enable the comp/eq.
it doesn't sound right w/ just a mic/pre, it's only gonna get worse (polishing a turd). there is no problem w/ your equipment, just take some time to experiment, it's fun!!! I consider the 'impedance' knob on that pre, as a mild 'dynamic treble control'. it's subtle.

The 414 offers up quite a lot of output level. This may be, in fact, overloading your first stage of microphone pre-amplification. This is why they put a pad switch on the microphone. Use it.

If you are getting any hiss when using a 414, you are doing something way wrong. Especially when recording a tight close-up vocal. There should be no hiss with that scenario.

Plus, you just want to go into a single microphone preamp. There is no sense rhyme or reason to go into multiple preamps. That's like trying to stick more than one suppository up your butt. But what you've recorded is a high colonic. So get the microphone out of his butt with the pad switch, the sanitary pad switch. And for heaven's sake, just use a single microphone preamp of any variety.

I take microphone preamps into microphone preamps, because I know how to. And I have to. And when done correctly, suffers from no overload and no additional noise. That's also because pads are actually built into the front end of my Neve, & API, preamps. So I don't have to rely strictly on the microphone pad. But you can't just be plugging one preamp into another preamp without understanding what gain staging is all about. It doesn't matter if you don't see any clipping. It's all wrong to begin with. The clipping is in sections that do not indicate any clipping. While you are getting clipping. The recording is most definitely overloaded, no question about that. So it's not your equipment at fault but your incorrect use of it. You can still plug a preamp into a preamp with a pad, a balanced H-pad, between them. And if you don't have that H-pad, don't even think about plugging one preamp into another preamp. With unbalanced outputs and inputs, you would utilize an L-pad, which is an unbalanced pad.

These pads are available both in fixed gain loss or switchable gain loss from companies like SHURE, as a simple plug-in XLR barrel. I have numerous pads like those. Some are nothing more than 10-20 DB. Others are up to 50 DB for padding down line level sources into microphone inputs. Or hot keyboard outputs, where you may only need 10-20 DB to prevent from overloading microphone inputs from DI boxes.

Sometimes I utilize three microphone preamps? Altec Lansing 1567 tube into API 312/3124 and then into Neve 3115's. Without noise. Without overload. All clean. All huge! Just to get a sound I want as opposed to a sound I don't want.

More can be better, when done correctly.
Mx. Remy Ann David

I'd keep it simple given the OP's gear/experience level. I find lower level gear 'stacks' in a bad way and exaggerates the defficiencies of themselves. not that i'm some super seasoned sound dude, but just in general, i've found that to be true. a 414 and any pre on the market should get a decent sound. i'd switch mics/placement before i'd try to stack pres.
i'm now instantly fascinated w/ the concept of chaining pre's. Gonna have ta ask my boss to let me use his mixing/tracking room one night to mess around w/ the neve, api, stuff. No tube pre's there, damn. maybe i'll sell my car (i won't) to get the 610 i drool over, but haven't even tried yet, to hear if i like it.

RemyRAD, post: 393658 wrote: The 414 offers up quite a lot of output level. This may be, in fact, overloading your first stage of microphone pre-amplification. This is why they put a pad switch on the microphone. Use it.

If you are getting any hiss when using a 414, you are doing something way wrong. Especially when recording a tight close-up vocal. There should be no hiss with that scenario.

Plus, you just want to go into a single microphone preamp. There is no sense rhyme or reason to go into multiple preamps. That's like trying to stick more than one suppository up your butt. But what you've recorded is a high colonic. So get the microphone out of his butt with the pad switch, the sanitary pad switch. And for heaven's sake, just use a single microphone preamp of any variety.

I take microphone preamps into microphone preamps, because I know how to. And I have to. And when done correctly, suffers from no overload and no additional noise. That's also because pads are actually built into the front end of my Neve, & API, preamps. So I don't have to rely strictly on the microphone pad. But you can't just be plugging one preamp into another preamp without understanding what gain staging is all about. It doesn't matter if you don't see any clipping. It's all wrong to begin with. The clipping is in sections that do not indicate any clipping. While you are getting clipping. The recording is most definitely overloaded, no question about that. So it's not your equipment at fault but your incorrect use of it. You can still plug a preamp into a preamp with a pad, a balanced H-pad, between them. And if you don't have that H-pad, don't even think about plugging one preamp into another preamp. With unbalanced outputs and inputs, you would utilize an L-pad, which is an unbalanced pad.

These pads are available both in fixed gain loss or switchable gain loss from companies like SHURE, as a simple plug-in XLR barrel. I have numerous pads like those. Some are nothing more than 10-20 DB. Others are up to 50 DB for padding down line level sources into microphone inputs. Or hot keyboard outputs, where you may only need 10-20 DB to prevent from overloading microphone inputs from DI boxes.

Sometimes I utilize three microphone preamps? Altec Lansing 1567 tube into API 312/3124 and then into Neve 3115's. Without noise. Without overload. All clean. All huge! Just to get a sound I want as opposed to a sound I don't want.

More can be better, when done correctly.
Mx. Remy Ann David

Remy,

I have to learn more about too. You are a wealth of tricks. I believe one of the secrets to the Manley TNT is this.

Chris...Manley TNT is "this" what? What this? I sound like I'm speaking Ebonics?

So, really, when ya get the gain staging right, everything plays well together. When ya don't get it right... you are ejected out of the ballpark.

One strike and no balls.
Mx. Remy Ann David

kmetal, post: 393758 wrote: I'd keep it simple given the OP's gear/experience level. I find lower level gear 'stacks' in a bad way and exaggerates the defficiencies of themselves

Yep. Especially with the preamps I use, there's no point in stacking them. Let me be clear that I didn't mean to run through the UX8 preamp. I wasn't trying to stack them; I was doing it without realizing it.

This experience has brought the concept of gain staging into the middle of my radar. I have been reading up on it a bit, but I still don't really get when to use the fethead and when not to.

I have to admit, I'm not really sure what a "fethead" is? Sounds like you are describing a microphone preamp, utilizing some kind of J FET front end? I googled it and could find no references to fethead? At first I thought you were talking about one of the Cascades ribbon microphones, called the " FATHEAD "?

The concept of gain staging is actually quite forward. When we used to design and build and/or repair analog audio consoles, you have numerous stages of amplification and numerous stages of losses. These losses come from things like combining networks, fixed resistor networks, filters. So after that loss comes a subsequent next amplification stage. Based upon the operating parameters of each amplification stage, there is a window of the performance. Where the noise is at its lowest and the headroom is at its highest. If the window becomes shifted up or down by too much amplification or too much loss, performance will obviously suffer. Sometimes, we utilize this scheme of gain and loss to push the envelope or so to speak, depending upon the equipment in use.

That window in lesser, consumer oriented, entry-level equipment is most frequently a much narrower window than what one finds on higher end level equipment. But this doesn't mean that full-blown, fully professional results cannot be obtained from the consumer oriented, entry-level equipment. It absolutely can. But it's a game, one has to learn how to play to obtain something that could and very often can, rival the full-blown expensive stuff. The fun part is, you can sometimes cheat with slightly more noise to obtain greater headroom. The opposite can also be done in situations where you may want lower noise. And in a sense, you can actually stretch, the capability of the device. TA-SCAM analog consoles, are not well known for their superlatively performing microphone preamps and equalizers. Results can be quite underwhelming. In comparison to a piece of quality, professional gear. So I have fun, amazing my musician friends. When I get a recording out of a crappy console, that doesn't sound much different from my Neve. And then I showed him how to do that. It's actually pretty funny. The microphone preamps suck. The mid-band equalizer sucks. So I cheat the microphone preamp. Adjusting it to the proper gain makes it lack badly in headroom. It helps knowing where it craps out. So you don't turn it up that much. You're trading more noise for professional sounding headroom. The cheat then is having to increase the output bus drive amplifier by approximately the same amount of DB's, you were running the microphone preamp, lower. This is necessary to make up for the loss of level before it hits your recording device input.

When it comes to using the equalizers on that hunk of junk, I don't mind utilizing a little tilt up or down on the high and low frequency equalizers. They are what they call shelving. The mid-band equalizer has a rather tight Q, sounds rather screechy and offers up a nondescript texture that is not appealing whatsoever. So you don't use it, don't touch it.

The rest is simply in your mix, the balance and not pushing the outputs. When you get the transient information through a hunk of junk like that, it doesn't sound like a hunk of junk anymore. When you don't use a really bad ringy narrow Q mid-band equalizer, whose operational amplifier also doesn't have much headroom, it won't sound Tinkertoy like.

So without those distasteful elements, one can get a great mix with plenty of transients, sparkling through. The slight increases in noise will go virtually unnoticed. A lot of this is particularly true of circuitry that relies upon integrated circuit chips. These things are a modern marvel. A plethora of great sounding chips are out there. But ya really can't push them beyond their operational specifications. Not even the good ones. This changes though, with devices utilizing only discrete transistors. The topology of these circuits, which are quite minimalistic, will do fascinating aural tricks wherein you push them. Of course there is always that point of no return, but it's that raggedy edge, where all the magic begins to happen. And that's one of the narrowest windows to shoot for. This is where this simple little operational amplifier with its minimalistic topology starts to go nonlinear. The integrated circuit chips have too many transistor junctions in comparison to these minimalistic discrete devices. And that's why those can't be pushed. They also can't transfer the current as well. Nothing wrong with them, when you don't push the envelope.

Knowing things like this allow you to take full advantage of gain staging. Where, if one wants? One can actually feed a microphone preamp into a microphone preamp into a microphone preamp into a microphone preamp, without problems. Otherwise you get something completely unusable by the time ya get to the second microphone preamp. And that's taking full advantage of your gain staging by inserting the right amount of losses, between each series of gains. It's usually the losses that people forget to include, therefore getting completely miserable results. While I love less is more, more can be greater than less, when you do it right. And that's a different vernacular of gain staging.

The reason so many people like myself go ape chit over these classic pieces like the API and Neve products from the late 1960s/70s, is that they do the most amazing things to your audio, when you push them properly. In fact, it can eliminate the need for any equalization or dynamic range manipulation. It just sort of does everything right, making everything sound right on the right instruments at the right volume levels. It changes the bite. It changes the bulk. It can sound better than a compressor and an equalizer. And then you smile when you realize you're not using anything. And everybody freaks out at your mix and your sound. They all wonder how to get that stuff. So while it can't be had with every piece of equipment it can be accomplished, even with old Yamaha PA mixers from the 1970s. A good example of those would be the PM 700/PM 1000. They were Japanese clones of Neve's. And you can get very similar results from those as they were all discrete transistor. And you can find those real cheap today. The Yamaha equalizers were also nothing really to write home about. Not as bad as that other Japanese manufacturer. Still a little ringy on their mid-band. But this time utilizing ferrite core inductors. Just like a Neve. And in fact those particular, PA boards were referred to as " Baby Neve's ". Then they sounded like it. At least when you only went through it once. Any more than once, they quickly started turning into mud. And a lot of that was just those Japanese Transformers. It was difficult building 24 track projects on an eight track analog machine, when utilizing those boards for recording purposes. Nevertheless, I was able to compensate somewhat by grabbing at the high frequency equalizer, a little more aggressively. In fact adding too much boost, and then having to compensate through a high frequency limiter. And voilà! I should post some of those jingles, I did 33 years ago? George Martin liked them enough to offer me a job. And I really hated that PM 1000 I had to use. I still chuckle when I listen to those jingles. Because it's also that understanding of proper gain staging that got me through. Before I had to use that board, I was using API, Neve and Harrison consoles. So you know what something is supposed to sound like, it's easier to get that sound from something that's not supposed to sound like that. But you also have to have that sonic mental imprint. If you can't use those consoles, and they are not available to you, you just simply have to listen to those great old rock 'n roll hits from the 1970s/80s, which were all recorded on those boards. And you'll know what you are shooting for. And it's there, it's available, it can be done inexpensively. Is it pristine, perfect, uncolored, neutral, transparent? No way. It wouldn't sound as good, if it was. And that's because we are painting pictures with sound. You just look at what you want your mix to be in front of you when it comes out of your speakers. And you'll find it there. Because really, no one's recording problems are because of their equipment. It's their misunderstanding or lack of understanding of the equipment they are using that prevents them from obtaining professional results of a higher order.

Confusion is also healthy.
Mx. Remy Ann David

kmetal, post: 393758 wrote: . maybe i'll sell my car (i won't) to get the 610 i drool over, but haven't even tried yet, to hear if i like it.

you might save yourself some money in the long run if you rent one for a few days. its a great pre but it only does one thing.

maybe think about
http://www.radialeng.com/r2011/powerrack-products.php

you can get 3 channels 8 channels 8 channels with a sum mixer. they it takes any 500 module api or any number of other manufacturers comps eqs gates eqs filters di's, re amp boxs etc. . Kick ass power supply.

Remy;

"I have to admit, I'm not really sure what a "fethead" is? Sounds like you are describing a microphone preamp, utilizing some kind of J FET front end? I googled it and could find no references to fethead? At first I thought you were talking about one of the Cascades ribbon microphones, called the " FATHEAD "?"

http://tritonaudio.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=category&sectionid=4&id=17&Itemid=33

Remy-
The Fethead is a little inline metal tube (like the ones Switchcraft makes to put simple passive circuits into) with a JFet preamp built into it. It was designed to boost weaker-output mics (ribbons, SM7b, RE-20,etc.). Think of the LPB-1 that Mike Matthews (EH) made for geetars in the 70's. I've tried one on the SM7b and it really brought it to life...just not enough to keep the mic around! You might check out the Cloudlifter for comaprison. Probably the same guts, but they offer more features on various models. Not exactly a poor man's Neve, though ( what is?).

Oh yeah, I should have known. Yeah there's a few like this out there. I'm familiar with the one that BLUE makes.

I think their logo is funny. It's a rip of the Neumann logo plate stuck on their microphones. Just to make you think it's a quality product. And it may be by virtue of its simplicity.

I was also right about it being a JFET input. Probably great on a ribbon microphone with that 22 K, input impedance. It certainly won't load any microphone down. 22,000 ohms may be load resistors since a J FET is generally around 2,000,000 ohm loads. But it can also indicate a couple of low noise, bipolar transistor inputs also. Those would in turn feed a J FET IC chip operational amplifier. Bipolar transistors do not have high input impedance. They are mid-impedance devices.

Kurt, I just love your changing avatars. Your current one actually sounds loud just the way it looks. ARF! Nice doggie, nice doggie.

GOT MILK... bone?
Mx. Remy Ann David

Ya, Kurt the pooch is the best. And the profile pic is great too. Nice read too.

RemyRAD, post: 393765 wrote: Chris...Manley TNT is "this" what? What this? I sound like I'm speaking Ebonics?

So, really, when ya get the gain staging right, everything plays well together. When ya don't get it right... you are ejected out of the ballpark.

One strike and no balls.
Mx. Remy Ann David

TNT = feed the left channel into to right for some serious kick ass gain and colour shaping.
I was talking with Marek Stycos a few months back, who is the Manley Distributor and from his explanation of it, it is to die for.

Those radial racks are really cool, i love the idea of analog summing, built right into a 500 series rack. Seems the the most versatile of the current crop of 500 series racks, most likely the one i'd get if i could. Though i haven't noticed any tube based pre's/compresors out yet.

What is it that the 610 does? how would you describe it?

I've heard it's "colorful", but that's pretty vague. I know they used it on Van Halens guitar thru 2 57's, but it was probably the whole consoles' strip, and well it's van halen, they coulda used a mackie.

I think many of these lunchbox frames are a cool way to go. It's essentially a miniature version of an API or a Neve like console. Without the need for a 2000 pound console. And I'm not talking dollars I'm talking weight. Not pounds as in British money.

You are likely never to see any 500 series tube electronics. That's because tubes require high voltages. The lunchbox racks are designed for ± 15 V equipment, transistor equipment, IC chip equipment. Good transistor equipment just means you don't need old-fashioned tube equipment. Sure I love tubes. I don't like their high voltage and I don't like their heat. I don't even necessarily like the way they age. It's not a wine. It's a tube. They change over time. I like consistency. Ya get consistency with transistors and IC chips. I do not need to be pulling and exchanging tubes just to get a sound. This isn't a hobby, it's a profession. We have hobbyist engineers and we have professional engineers. What are you? Pick one. A hobbyist engineer means you are mixing raw hamburger with chocolate chips. A professional engineer means you are providing steak tartare with a lovely chocolate dessert. And those two concepts are very different. Both in their sound and the way they taste.

I'll tell you my cigarettes do not substitute for my lunch. Thankfully I don't Light my cigarettes on both ends. Not the kind of parallel processing I want to deal with.

I've got my cheap Pall Mall's sitting right next to my American Spirit's. The Pall Mall's are used during the tracking. The American Spirit's are used during the mix. The cancer remains the same. (I don't have cancer yet. I only took up smoking cigarettes two years ago at 55.) No I don't like using those as much as the illegal ones. But it's the only equipment in which I have to use. So production still come out well even though I'm not smoking my favorite smokes.

I purchase my microphones one at a time instead of by the carton.
Mx. Remy Ann David

kmetal, post: 394140 wrote: Those radial racks are really cool, i love the idea of analog summing, built right into a 500 series rack. Seems the the most versatile of the current crop of 500 series racks, most likely the one i'd get if i could. Though i haven't noticed any tube based pre's/compresors out yet. What is it that the 610 does? how would you describe it? I've heard it's "colorful", but that's pretty vague. I know they used it on Van Halens guitar thru 2 57's, but it was probably the whole consoles' strip, and well it's van halen, they coulda used a mackie.

The 610 is a mic pre that was designed by Bill Putnam back in the 50's as part of his 610 series consoles. The ones sold by UA these days are re-issues. skools out as to if they are really exactly the same as the originals as it is difficult to gauge these things because you have ageing components, availablity of tubes etc. All in all they are a very good pre but as I said earlier, kind of a one trick pony.

hmm interesting stuff. i'm no purist, just brought the idea of a colorful tube pre up, cuz there isn't one at the studio to use, and something w/ 'character' is next on my list. i don't really care if it's tubes or a gerbil running on a wheel inside.

One of the main reasons i'm not into vintage gear is cuz it can be unreliable, from functioning properly, to sound qualities. Sure maybe if i ever get rich i'll indulge. I know a guy who swears nothing new is good, As if audio died w/ the ssl e-series. then when the sessions over basically brags about how good everything he recorded sounds, using gear no older than about 15 yrs, and by no means boutique. ????
I'd much rather spend session time working on arrangements, or a better solo, or whatever pertains to the songs best interest, instead of fussing w/ gear issues. That's why everything is set-up, it's supposed to work for the most part as a big machine, they are tools, fun tools, but it's not like i'm gonna go design my own custom screwdriver anytime soon.

FWIW after about 10 years of progressively more 'serious' fun recording, i started considering whether i was becoming a professional, when i started getting calls from for sound system repair, wiring, and live sound gigs, and was successful. So a few years later, i consider myself an (entry level) professional, whatever that is. maybe it just means right now i can cook a good bbq chicken and mashed potatoes? nothing to fancy, but done well. I just keep learning and getting better, so labels aside, i'm determined to succeed, or fail trying my best. I'm lucky to use whatever equipment i have available, and a working professional willing to take the time to help me evolve.

i'd certainly never complain that 'the gear' is making the recording bad (unless it's really broken), or it would be 'soooo' much better if i had this or that. That's a copout. Like my dad used to always tell me "it's the up to the indian, not the arrow".

RemyRAD, post: 393850 wrote: Probably great on a ribbon microphone with that 22 K, input impedance. It certainly won't load any microphone down. 22,000 ohms may be load resistors since a J FET is generally around 2,000,000 ohm loads. But it can also indicate a couple of low noise, bipolar transistor inputs also. Those would in turn feed a J FET IC chip operational amplifier. Bipolar transistors do not have high input impedance. They are mid-impedance devices.
Mx. Remy Ann David

Ribbons are better suited with a lower impedance bipolar input stage; A fet generates considerable noise when it's loaded down by a low impedance source, like a ribbon mic, typically around 50 to 150 ohms. High input impedance fet preamps are better suited for high impedance sources, 10K and up.

I believe cascading preamp stages even with acceptable loss between stages is a recipe for adding unnecessary noise. Every subsequent stage adds noise, so once you get the signal up to a usable level, why desecrate it by adding any further noise or distortion? The noise floor is a form of distortion too, it's adding something to the original signal that wasn't there before.

As mentioned already, this sounds like a gain structure issue.

There's no reason that a 414 should be exhibiting the symptoms you mention.

I would also consider dumping the Fethead. The 414 doesn't need it.

Just because visual indicators on the various pres, EQ's and compressors aren't showing a clip, doesn't mean that you're still not driving things too hot... especially when chaining devices together. The gain will build up when using multiple processors or pre's, and there doesn't need to be visual signs of actual clipping occurring in order to encounter distortion.

Attenuate the output of the mic if needed using the built-in pad, check your gain staging again to make sure that one stage isn't too hot while another isn't too shy... The 414 is a very clean and fairly transparent mic with a healthy output right out of the box; and should be as clean as a whistle and as quiet as mouse - as long as all your various gain settings (EQ as well... remember, EQ is gain!) are staged correctly.