These are two VERY different mics- the Valvet has a lot of airy top end, although it's not harsh at all, like most inexpensive, top end heavy mics seem to be. It's very nice across the whole frequency range, but the top really pushes forward a lot. The M147 is really different- forward mids, with decent bottom and a rolled off top end.

I don't think either one of them would be my first $2K mic choice- they both have such distinct personalities. They'll both be wonderful on some things, and suck on others.

What you want, IMO, is a mic that sounds pretty good wherever you put it. In that price range, I'd probably vote for the Lawson or Soundelux.

Or, you could get a TLM103, a Beyer M160, and a BLUE Dragonfly. That'd cover a _lot_ of bases for $2K.

Of course, Brad Lunde told me recently that Brauner is coming out with the Valvet Voice, which I think is supposed to be more balanced, without such a high end emphasis- that should be a good all-around mic contender.

If you've got the $2K, you won't regret the Lawson L47MP. There is a whole thread currently running on this mic you should check out if you want some testimonials. If I had to pick one mic to "do it all" this would definitely be it.

The Brauner Valvet voice sounded very nice, and yes it was a little less bright than the regular valvet. I think I tend to like less bright mics, they sound more natural to me and I find myself using them more than not. I also like the MBHO 608 (large diaphram - tri polar pattern) very much. I find it very natural and very top shelf sounding...it's a lot of mic for it's price. The history of MBHO is a good read also.

I love my Valvet, been using it a couple years now on voice, cello and acoustic gtr with excellent results. Why not bring 'em both in and see which you like better? I preferred mine over the U95 and the Manley Standard Reference but that's just an opinion.

The problem with something like MBHO, Geffel and even Brauner among other mics is that they don't have any kind of name among to them among the general public. If someone comes into my studio I can point at Neumann, AKG, and Blue is starting to get there as well. The only people who know about Brauner are other engineers which is cool, but it's not going to draw clients in even if it is a better mic. Keep in mind I'm speaking from the perspective of a studio owner.

Originally posted by Jay Kahrs:
The problem with something like MBHO, Geffel and even Brauner among other mics is that they don't have any kind of name among to them among the general public. If someone comes into my studio I can point at Neumann, AKG, and Blue is starting to get there as well. The only people who know about Brauner are other engineers which is cool, but it's not going to draw clients in even if it is a better mic. Keep in mind I'm speaking from the perspective of a studio owner.

Maybe one of the few times I've ever disagreed with Jay, but i don't seem to run into that problem at all. If a client comes and sees a new "unknown" mic on the stand, and I rave about it, usually they can't wait to at least audition it. Especially if it is either cool looking or really old looking. That's not to say they'll always go with it, but they're usually eager to give it a test drive.

Most artists are looking for every edge to set their music apart from the crowd - whether that comes in the form of a different mic, preamp, or compressor. Of course, it helps if you have a few "brand names" standing by to compare or fall back on.

I'm with littledog on this one. I guess my clients are not very savvy, so if I say it's cool, they believe me and give it a listen.

Most of my clients trust me but you can't deny that the lemming factor exists. How many times have people asked you if you have a Neumann? I get it a few times a month.

Don't forget that neither the Trident nor the Meek pre's are very toppy, the Meek actually sounding best when mated w/ bright & even harsh mics (to counter it's somewhat dull character).

Hi,

thanks for the load of comments guys!
I am not too impressed with MBHO Mics I must say. I have a matched pair of MBC 660 and whilst they sound good on classical guitar or Viola, I wouldn't want to use them on something that needs a little bit more top or bottom. They are very mid-rangy - sound awful on OH for example.
Jay, yeah, you are right with the name-dropping phenomena. There are lots of people asking for Neumanns. On the other hand, Brauner has become a REALLY big name in Germany as well, and is almost as recognized by now.
Eric is certainly right, that both pre's I'll be using are more full, yeh maybe dull in certain ways, so a more airy mic would match them better.
Could someone point me towards pages where I can get some info (also prices) about Lawson and Soundeluxe?
What about TLM 103? It's kinda cheap here in Germany ( ca. 700$). Is it in the same league as the Brauner or the M 147???

Ok, thanks again and looking forward to reading more from you.

Best,

UTS

Originally posted by UTS:
Hi,
I am not too impressed with MBHO Mics I must say. I have a matched pair of MBC 660 and whilst they sound good on classical guitar or Viola, I wouldn't want to use them on something that needs a little bit more top or bottom. They are very mid-rangy

MBHO doesn't even make a 660 model (at least not anymore). I would have to confirm that this is a discontinued model of theirs. This midrangey character doesn't hold true of the rest of their line. Their small diaphram and large diaphrams are anything but midrangey, they are very natural and musical with a full frequency response and low self noise. I use a pair of the MBHO small diaphram with the KA800 figure 8 capsule because they are actually more subdued in the highs as opposed to a typical cardiod or omni w/ 8-9k peak. So I am actually choosing to put less brightness and more neutrality in my recordings by doing this, but brighter options exist from MBHO through the other patterns.

If this is to be your vocal microphone, forget about the M147. I have owned one for three years and have given up on finding any singer that sounds good on it. And yes, even the TLM103 is better for vocals, although I prefer other microphones over the 103. FWIW, I have never read any favorable comments on the net about the M147 for vocals.

Happy hunting.

Nathan,

the MBC 660 was exclsuively made for Musikhaus Thomann (Germany's equivalent to Sweetwater I guess). They sold a matched pair for something like 350$. Maybe I have been a little too hasty with judging MBHO because of this mic, having in mind that it weas probably the cheapest they ever made. Still it sounds not too good.

Best.

UTS

MBHO mics are amazing, especially for the money!

Originally posted by UTS:
Maybe I have been a little too hasty with judging MBHO because of this mic, having in mind that it weas probably the cheapest they ever made.

There is a significant quality difference between their current lower line mics and their higher priced lines ($600-$1300)...although the lower lines sound very good for their price range (mid $300's). I suppose this should be expected though, especially when considering older technology such as the 660's you mentioned. BTW, the M147 is gear more towards instrumental micing, taking the same general sonic space as a U47 FET for example. If you are looking for that sound, I would go with a Soundelux U195...if you want a U87ish type sound I really prefer the Rode NTK to the TLM103. It's more musical to my ears with a softer/silkier top and less proximity.

Nathan,

you just mentioned the Rode NTK. I read alot of hype comments about it and really like the Rode sound in general (I even like the NT1 alot!). Does the NTK really compare to mics double the price (Neumanns, Brauner, Soundelux you name it)?
I mean, I am currently using an AT 4033 and the next mic I want to buy should be a definite step up....let me know what you think.

Yours,

UTS

Originally posted by Jon Best:

What you want, IMO, is a mic that sounds pretty good wherever you put it. In that price range, I'd probably vote for the Lawson or Soundeluxe.

To each his own, I guess :-). I originally went with a Lawson for my main vox mic, after having (regrettably) sold my Blue U-47 cuz I was nervous having a mic that expensive with kids around. I could live with breaking a $2k mic, not a $5k mic. The "L-47" made me believe I could get a "U-47" sound for half the price of my BLUE. I sent the Lawson back. It sounded 'distant' for lack of a better term. I tried all of the pattern settings, etc. Just couldn't get a nice loud presence out of it. And after trying out several other mics, like an AKG 4060 and an M-147, I tried a valvet, and it was the closest thing I could get to what I had going with the BLUE. Still a bit different, of course, but it was the only other mic that had that same naturally compressed, silky smooth (albeit slightly more hyped) top end.

Chris Stevens
http://www.fabmusic.com

Originally posted by UTS:
Nathan,
you just mentioned the Rode NTK. I read alot of hype comments about it and really like the Rode sound in general (I even like the NT1 alot!). Does the NTK really compare to mics double the price (Neumanns, Brauner, Soundelux you name it)?
I mean, I am currently using an AT 4033 and the next mic I want to buy should be a definite step up.

There is a big difference between the NT1 and the NTK, it's like a different company made the product. The NTK will go head to head with the TLM 103, which is a Neumann, but not a high priced Neumann. I prefer it to the places where I normally used TLM103's because I find the top and lows more usable & musical in general. If you are looking for the quality of a Brauner or higher end Soundelux you won't find it with the NTK. Is it worth it to you to spend the extra $1500+ on a better mic though, that's for you to decide.

I personally feel the best condenser in the $1K-$2K range is the MBHO 608 (I sell two other popular lines that have mics in that price range also). The Soundelux and Brauner's are excellent, as are the upper line BLUE's such as the Cactus (stock B7 capsule) and Bottle (with B7 or B5 capsule instead of the B6...that's just my preference).

Originally posted by atlasproaudio:
...and Bottle (with B7 or B5 capsule instead of the B6...that's just my preference).

oops- must edit- hit post too early...

OK, where was I?

I have been wrestling with my Bottle lately- I have the B6 and B7, and while overall they make a great mic package, I seem to need just small touches of EQ more than I am used to, and always in the same places. The B6 has plenty of smooth top, and solid mids, but I always end up adding a touch of somewhere near 200 hz for lead vocals, almost regardless of voice. The B7, on the other hand, always seems a touch cloudy in the midrange. I had also expected them to be more different from each other- I guess the Bottle body adds more of it's own footprint than I thought it did. I'm not really complaining, as with a couple of touchups everything is great...

What do you think of the B5, by the way? That may be my next capsule investment.

Originally posted by Jon Best:
What do you think of the B5, by the way? That may be my next capsule investment.

I love it for female voxs. The B6 sounds airy for sure, but in almost a forced way. The B5 is airy but the whole frequency spectrum of it sounds more like how my ears hear things, and it is much more smooth in the top. I find myself reaching for it more often than anything with a B6 (which is almost never). If you want bright, but realistic (as opposed to an "eq'd" sound), go for the B5, if you want thick and realistic, go for the B2 Figure 8. I hope this helps a bit.

I dont think the ntk is a step up from the 4033. Just a different sound, and arguably not preferable.

THe tlm103 would be a nice step up. IMHO the tlm103 beats the pants off the ntk

Please tell us why you think the TLM103 is significantly better than the NTK in your opinion. I think the fundamental tones of the two mics are very similar, but they have different characteristics with the NTK having a silkier top and mids, and the proximity effect being less pronounced, making it more musical IMO.

Nathan, where does the Kiwi fall into place? What are your impressions of it?

Originally posted by Jay Kahrs:
Nathan, where does the Kiwi fall into place? What are your impressions of it?
 

My impression of the Kiwi is one of being a bright, hard sounding mic with an pronounced low midrange when in cardioid pattern. Of course it is better (ie more "pure" with some of this smoothed over in figure 8 and omnidirectional) to my ears when in other patterns IMO, but if you are expecting an Elam 251 or C12 replacement for $2K fuggetaboutit.

I'll be getting a Brauner Valvet voice and standard version in the next few days, so if you would like a demo (in Florida) call me. Personally I would rather have a Valvet than the Kiwi if you are looking for the brighter type tone in that price range (or a Valvet Voice if you want a thicker tone). An MBHO 608 is also in the slightly airier range (in omni...figure 8 is pretty thick) and sounds much more natural & musical than the Kiwi for a lot less $$$. I don't see the advantage in any way of paying the extra $700 for the Kiwi. :D

I wasn't even thinking of the type of tone I'm looking for. I'm starting to look into getting the big $2K-ish mic. Obviously whatever I get isn't going to fit everyone but I'm looking for something that won't suck at least 70% of the time.

I find neutral mics as being more useful. I'm not necessarily speaking of the coloration (ie iron...although this sometimes tends to be a part of it), but more of how the high end is treated. I find brighter mics to work on about 30% of what I use, and the rest of the mics need to be less hyped in the highs. I think a pair of U47's and U48's would be my desert island mics...the best of three worlds (if you know what I mean :cool: ). If I want bright, I go for Omni...presence peak (5k ish)-> cardiod...thick, but natural -> figure 8. A Brauner Valvet Voice is going to be the closest thing under $2500 to a U47, or like I said above an MBHO 608 in figure 8 (uh..U48 :eek: )

Not to beat a dead horse, Jay, but I still say you should check out the Lawson L47MP. Or what about the M149? It's come down well under $3 grand street price.

Ow! Ow! Quit it!

I've used the Lawsons a few times. There's one studio nearby that owns a pair and another place about an hour from here that owns a pair. I'd rather get something different. Plus, most of the people I've talked to about the L47MP bought it as a main vocal mic and ended up using it somewhere else. Overall that doesn't give me a lot of confidence when it's the only $2K mic I'm going to own for a long time. An M149 is a possibility. In my head I'm leaning towards a U99, E47, Kiwi, or U87 but I won't be ready to buy anything until June or July so right now it's all speculation.

I agree with Jay about thinking of things from the business perspective - yet in most reguards I fail that form of marketing badly.

My cherry mics are a pair of Schoeps. Yeah the people that know them really know, but most people I have to tell them or let them hear - big sounds carry big word of mouth. I also have a U87 with works great for alot of things for me.

My preamps lack that luster as well, with an API 3124-M and four Telefunken v-276s racked up, some people are left asking "no avalon or focusrite", yet you just have to let them hear what the deal is. I admit I'd like something big, shiny with a VU - yet at the same time I dont give a fuck.

Back to Schoeps - anyone have experience with them on vox? I know I rave about them for everything - but they are the mic of choice for most tennors, charlotte church etc and alot of discerning vocalists (I know those are crap examples to what work most of us do, yet the mics are oddly know for tennor work and foley!)- placement is key yet the mics just dont let me down on many things that dont call for a dynamic. I just love to "look" through those mics.

ps - MBHOs are kinda crimpin style from the Schoeps folk - look at the grille design of an MHBO cardiod capsule, and then look at a Schoeps mk-4 capsule...

Originally posted by MicrophoneMan:
ps - MBHOs are kinda crimpin style from the Schoeps folk - look at the grille design of an MHBO cardiod capsule, and then look at a Schoeps mk-4 capsule...

It's not a coincidence...MBHO's head engineer was with Schoeps for 15+ years. I would think he would pick up a few things in that time.

Originally posted by Jay Kahrs:
In my head I'm leaning towards a U99, E47, Kiwi, or U87 but I won't be ready to buy anything until June or July so right now it's all speculation.

In a $2Kish mic shootout we did here a year or two ago, the U99 really came out as the most widely applicable mic in the opinion of the three engineers present.

We had that one, the Valvet, a Gefell UM92.1, the Bottle, the M147, a U87, and a TLM103 and an SM57 thrown in for comparisons. All through Great River pre's.

Originally posted by Jon Best:
In a $2Kish mic shootout we did here a year or two ago, the U99 really came out as the most widely applicable mic in the opinion of the three engineers present.

I'm not surprised one bit...although the U95s would be far more multipurpose for my applications.

Originally posted by Jon Best:
In a $2Kish mic shootout we did here a year or two ago, the U99 really came out as the most widely applicable mic in the opinion of the three engineers present.

We had that one, the Valvet, a Gefell UM92.1, the Bottle, the M147, a U87, and a TLM103 and an SM57 thrown in for comparisons. All through Great River pre's.

Can you give a short impression of what you heard from each mic? What made the U99 more generally usable?

Originally posted by Jay Kahrs:
Can you give a short impression of what you heard from each mic? What made the U99 more generably usable?

Working off of two year old memories, the mics that really stood out, just raw quality wise, were the Valvet and U99.

The Valvet has a lot of (very, very smooth) high end, which meant that to us, it had a pretty specific sound. In the top end, EQ'ing vocals, I would generally rather add a dB or two to the top than take it away, at least with the tools at my disposal.

The U99 sounded more balanced- clean top, nice mids, good bottom, without a lot of extra weight in any one range. So, while you're going to need a good EQ to get the super-airy pop vocal thing with the U99, we called it the best only-mic in the shootout.

The Gefell wasn't bad, smooth, but with a pronounced midrange. I'd call it third place, I guess. (Unlike my UM70, which is edgy as shit. Good for shoving snare drum way out front). Three or four for toms and guitars would be great. The Bottle (with one capsule) did it's one job quite well. The M147, well, I've never heard a wholly good comment on that mic. The TLM103 is what it is, and is pretty good for a semi-cheap mic, but it sounded like half the price of the Valvet and U99. I honestly don't remember what any of us thought about the $700 Elation. I *think* we also had an AT4060, which didn't piss anyone off (I know we included it in *a* shootout, just don't remember if it was this one).