Try specifying 44100 Hz and not 41000 Hz as your sampling rate in the bounce step.

TYPO, sorry, it's always set to 44100.

Also, I've tried with and without the dither plug-in on the mastering track on 3 different compositions. It must be in the bounce stage, right?

Have you tried a different CD player?

Everything you're doing seems proper.
This is not a common problem, so it's going to take a little detective work to find out where the problem is.
And just for fun, How much slower is it? (BPM) and is it just slower or also lower in pitch?

To connect the Behringer to the digi, use the analog line outs and connect them to your digi 882 analog inputs (1&2, 3&4, etc.). It should be that simple. Adjust the gain on your Behringer and in the software mixer & DAW.

Not sure about your other question although it shouldn't slow down the original track during CD Burn. Try dumping the song to CD via iTunes rather than using Toast. You can put the *.wav or AIFF file into iTunes without it converting to *.mp3

The slowdown is going to be in the conversion to 44.1k. Test a project by recording the whole thing in 44.1k instead of 48k.

TheJackAttack The slowdown is going to be in the conversion to 44.1k. Test a project by recording the whole thing in 44.1k instead of 48k.

Can you elaborate on why? I don't see how degrading the sound quality would actually slow down the temp of a track. I record at 48K and downsample to 44.1K without any issues. If it does do this and I've just never noticed it I would like to understand why it does it.

This an issue where the sample rate was not converted but simply changed.

Ah, yes that can definitely cause that if that's what's happening, but I thought you could only do that within the DAW. I did it once after recording at 44.1k and decided I should have recorded in 48K so I changed it directly in the project file. Surprise!! I was learning then... still am. When converting to 44.1K during bouncing I don't think it should cause a slowing down of the track. From how I'm reading his post, the problem is that it plays okay in iTunes, but not on a CD player after the bouncing process. That seems odd.

Some programs read the speed/sample rate of the file before they play them. Some programs play music and DVD's at their respective defaults for the soundcard itself. That is the most benign example. There is also the syndrome where a file is for example recorded at 48k and then the header is changed accidentally or manually so that the actual "musical" portion is described by the header as 44.1k. There is no way to tell what is for sure going on without looking at it personally. Any DAW is capable of sample rate conversion. Some do it better than others, but it is also possible to change the bit rate without resampling and this is what I think happened. At any rate (ha), it is always best to record at target sample rate or multiples thereof.

Okay then. I guess the way I do it works and I'll have to do some more studying. You seem to understand it well. :smile:

mdb, post: 361908 wrote: From how I'm reading his post, the problem is that it plays okay in iTunes, but not on a CD player after the bouncing process. That seems odd.

That's correct. I'm going to try all of this tomorrow on a completely new track and I'll update with the results. If I'm still having problems, I might post a track to some drop box somewhere for you guys to look at....this is really helpful. Thanks

Let's first try to establish whether it is playing slower & lower in pitch? Or whether it's playing slower at the proper pitch? One is controlled by sample rate. The other is controlled by sample rate down-conversion. It's the same but different. Just as much as it is different from the same.

You are most definitely converting it from 48 kHz to 44.1 kHz without downsampling it from 48 kHz to 44.1 kHz if it's both slower & lower. It's a simple mistake. It's okay, we've all done it at somewhere along the line in our digital escapades since the early 1980s. You have to admit, it's always good for a laugh.

OK

A funny little story here I'll share with everybody. I'm a bit chagrined to admit this however....

Back in 1987, I purchased one of the first portable DAT recorders I could find. Believe it or not, it was a Casio, as in cheap watches, entry-level synthesizers. Well, it was simply horrible sounding. Now I can't quite remember whether it was switchable from 44.1 kHz to 48 kHz? I can tell you it had no dither and everything faded into a cwispy-crunch. It went back to the factory. There went back to the factory again. It was replaced. I had to return it, it was just too horrible and along came the Panasonic SV 3500. Around 1996, I finally got my first CD burner. I still had the Panasonic SV 3500 DAT recorder. This was some very nice jazz. Throughout the years, I've never been certain whether I transferred it properly? It sounds great at either 44.1 kHz or 48 kHz without any up or down conversion. Meaning, it's playing higher and faster or lower and slower. The analogy here is that I've simply changing speeds on playback. What you're missing is that you need to "down convert" it instead of merely changing the sample rate which would make it play both higher & faster or lower & slower. As was mine. Thankfully, both ways sound spectacular with this entire 2+ hour performance. The original DAT had long ago been copied and unfortunately destroyed. So what I think is a 44.1 kHz copy might be a 48 kHz copy transferred to 44.1 kHz to CD? I love it both ways. It's whatever works. There was no singing and even the few countdowns you can hear the drummer do does not give one the proper perspective as to which 4-3-2-1 countdown is the right pitch? His voice sounds normal either way. I've no way of actually knowing what keys each song was intentionally performed in? So, I have 2 CDs. One with a slightly more up-tempo and brighter feel. The other with a more refined, mellow laid-back feel. Which to choose?? Don't ask me no questions and I'll convert for you no lies. I just wanted to be clear on what I'm not being clear about.

Yes I'm embarrassed. Yes I'm blushing. It's a woman's prerogative to make mistakes unlike men.
Mx. Remy Ann David

In 'session set-up' the details for the session are as follows:
Sample rate: 44.1khz
Bit depth: 24 bit
Audio format AIFF

In 'hardware set up' the digi 882s are set at a sample rate of 44.1khz

In 'preferences' > 'processing' the audiosuite dither us set to 24 bits

Does this help?

Not really,
Both Remy and I have asked for more info regarding speed and pitch. (how far off is the speed, how flat is the pitch)
Additionally I asked if you have tried a 2nd CD player. I suspect a problem with the CD player since that's the only place where the Cd does not play properly. So that needs to be ruled out first. (and it's a simple test)
Another way to test it would be to take a commercial CD and play it in both the CD player and the computer. Are there any differences there?

If the CD player is fine then my next question would be, do you have a MOTU midi time piece (or similar device) also connected to the 882 clock?

What Thomas said. And your mixdown bit rate should.be 16 bit for CD not 24.

The CD player is fine as the cd plays slow on 3 different machines.
I do have a digi MTP connecting my 882s, they're running as slaves. To be honest, this is how I bought it and I haven't ventured into this area as I don't know much about midi (that's next on my very long list!)

Jack Attack - I think the mixdown bit rate is 16 bit....the 24 bit setting on the dither is telling it what bit rate the files currently are (I think??)

Thanks for all your help guys, this is a real steep learning curve but a fun one!

Well, the MTP can become your master clock depending on your settings.
This doesn't explain why the CD will play fine on the computer however.
No, wait...
When you're playing the CD on the computer is it also going back through the Digi hardware?
If so, we might be on to something.

natural, post: 362074 wrote: When you're playing the CD on the computer is it also going back through the Digi hardware?
If so, we might be on to something.

erm, maybe. To be honest I don't know how it's routed.....except it's coming through my studio monitors that are fed by outs from my digi 882

Ok - Well, the next test would be to test the CD on a computer that's not connected to your system.
But, I think we now know the source of your problem.
I'm not sure you indicated that you were running multiple 882's. One of them should have the MASTER light lit. Furthest to the left.
If it doesn't, then the MTP is probably serving as your master clock. It doesn't matter what the settings are in PT if the MTP is your master.
You need to read and understand the the manuals of the tools that you are using. I don't own the DIGI MTP so I can't help you there.

So, as a final test, disconnect the MTP (and all clock cables on the rear) , and repeat the experiment.
If that doesn't do it, then we'll have to start looking someplace else.

Dude, you still haven't answered the question about slower & lower in pitch? Or slower at the proper pitch? This should be easy enough to comprehend. We have the ability to stretch time or compress time without changing pitch. We also have the ability to raise pitch or lower pitch without changing the duration of time! Do you comprehend? Does this compute? Danger! Danger Will Robinson! You have a full-blown Pro tools rig and you don't have any manuals nor tutorial videos with this less than budget system. There is nothing wrong with the CD player, this is simple operator error.

If you are recording at 24 bits, you should use the default dither for 24 bits. If you are "down converting" not just "changing the sample rate to 44.1 kHz" at 16 bit, you must use 16 bit dither not 24 bit dither because you need to dither down to 16 bit. That almost sounds like shuffle on down to Buffalo? Or the cat that chewed your new shoes? Which is what we're talking about, Buffalo and buffalo patties which is what you're getting currently. So look into your help file within your software about downconversion not sample rate conversion. You downconvert to 44.1 kHz and dither for 16 bit to 16 bit. You don't change sample rate that's changing speed, that's changing pitch that's changing time. But remember your software is still empowered with the ability to compress or extend time without changing pitch and you don't want that. Your software can also change pitch without changing time and you don't want that either. You also don't want to make 24 bit 48 kHz CD-ROM audio discs, although you can do that also. Then your software gets confused and gives you a 44.1 kHz 16 bit representation at the wrong pitch & the wrong speed which is what you're getting. You want CDDA, 16 bit 44.1 kHz audio CDs which will require 16 bit dither for 16 bit 44.1 kHz. Many DVD & CD players today can play various format created CDs. So you can't even be certain that you've made an audio CD. This can happen because DVD players can typically decode a 24-bit 48 kHz video audio track. And many of them in turn can also play 24-bit, 48 kHz CD-ROMs correctly whether it's in .wav/AIFF/MP 3/MP 2/MP 1/WMV/WMA. So you don't even really know what kind of disk you are cutting. Which is supposed to be strict Red Book CDDA format, for audio CDs and not some kind of CD-ROM product.

This is getting me dizzy. It's so much harder to read the labels on these CD things when they're going around in circles in the player.
Mx. Remy Ann David

It sounds to me like it's not converting from WAV to CD format via toast ;) CD players handle wav files but play them slowly but you need it to be in a CDA format to play properly. This is more a file conversion problem methinks. I don't think Toast is changing your wav to CDA (even if that is your intention). Make sure that you have it set to burn an audio disc and not a data disc. Furthermore, try a program like nero instead.

Might also be worth 'exploring' the CD to check the outputted format of the file.

I recon that might be it.

Failing this - do your usual 16 bit 44 blah blah whatever, but use AIFF stereo interleaved. Then use itunes to convert it to an MP3 and then burn it.

Most modern CD players automatically recognise mp3 format without it being a CDA so if your conversion is failing then this still might work.

Regards, Dan (the computer geek)

Thanks, I'll give that a trial too. It's a bit easier to understand than MIDI!
I already use AIFF stereo interleaved.

I thought you used Wav? Confusing. In any case... yes.. whack it out into AIFF stereo interleaved then convert it into mp3 with itunes (the reason I say AIFF is because ITunes likes it and can convert it to mp3 quickly).

So you have a few routes.

1) You select audio disc and voila it works - it was making a data disc.
2) You select audio disc and convert and it is still slow - it seems like a conversion problem so use nero instead.
3) You use nero and set to audio disc and it goes wrong - could be something more complicated.
4) You go AIFF - MP3 and then burn it.. wahey it was probably your conversion going wrong and your CD player liking MP3 files.. Sorted.
5) You go AIFF MP3 and it doesn't work - Make sure that your CD player likes MP3 files (it will say mp3 cd player on it some place if it does) and try it out.
6) Everything fails - You destroy everything including this forum and pretend it never happened.

Oh and I've spotted something that may be CRITICAL in all of this...

When you bounce files to a CD, unless it's re-writable the files are read only as soon as they have been put there (until they reach another storage capacity). If you then further try to convert them, AFTER THEY HAVE REACHED THE CD, it ain't going to play nice because you will no longer have modify writes on the files (blah blah pc file format/sharing jargon). You MUST.. MUST MUST convert to cda BEFORE the files are on that disc. You specifically need a program that can do this for you such as nero. This way you can just go.. ADD FILE.. MAKE AUDIO DISC.. CONVERT-BURN.. If you do BURN then CONVERT.. YOU = WILL = FAIL :))!!!!!

Good luck :P

MP3 is a lossy format. Skip it. iTunes reads either Wave or AIFF just fine. Toast was a well developed program and the equal of Nero so I would doubt it is the issue unless options are mis clicked.

MP3 is a lossy format. I agree. But for the purposes of establishing whether or not things are not being converted to a CDA or not it's perfect to try the disc in a player that likes MP3.. This is disregarding quality and sound engineering for a moment and being purely technical. You are right Jack. Especially about the options part. But the reason I say do this is because I am taking logical steps to identify and isolate an issue, that's all. The point of this is not focusing on sound quality or whatever but more the actually transformation of the file format. If it works when you use MP3 in an MP3 cd player then the file is CLEARLY not being converted to cda and another process is required. See what I'm trying to get at ? :) The only reason I choose Mp3 is because you get MP3 cd players and such, you don't get AIFF or WAV ones (at least not in everyday practice).

Once he's sussed out getting it to be consistant on whatever media. Then he has the process established to worry about quality and choose the right format for the right quality. Until the conversion is stable then everything is pointless wouldn't you agree ? :D

I do. I still think it is user error within PT.

Could be, who knows. Just trying to cover all bases ya know ? Plus. I have put a disc with wav files on in a CD player. And it does play. But outrageously slow and often with detuned pitch (lower) so that's further making me suspicious of this. Either way, im sure between us and the other guys we'll solve it!

The fastest way would be for one of you Mac folks to VNC or Remote Desktop into his computer and look at the file and/or process settings. A simple explore of the written disc will show immediately if the files are CDDA.

Of course he'd have to be willing to give control of his Mac to someone.

I've got a Mac with iChat which you can gain access through, but I don't think I'm the one to try troubleshooting with. I own Toast 9, but I don't own ProTools (Logic Express 9 guy).

Hope you get it worked out.

I don't have a Mac and haven't used one since 2003. Things might have changed a bit since then.

They should be indicated as ".CDA " which are simply software markers to tell the CD player that this is a audio CD and not a CD-ROM. No CD player should be able the play .wav files directly with out the required .CDA file format to be recognized as an audio CD. Your CD player may be capable of playing that .wav file CD, because it also plays .mp3 files but it's not supposed to play .wav. So of course it wouldn't necessarily play at the right pitch or tempo.

Find someone with a PC and import your mix in to something like Sony/Sound Forge, Adobe Audition, Cool Edit, Wave Lab, any of those will indicate what format your file is truly in and it will play it as it is encoded. But it will definitely give you a visual display if you are 44.1 kHz at 16 bit or something else. If you are still having speed & pitch issues, it's like I said, you didn't downconvert from 48 kHz, you merely converted to 44.1 kHz. If you think recorded & produced the entire production in 44.1 kHz, take a look at those files, individually, with one of those PC applications. I can virtually guarantee you they will be 48 kHz and if not, you didn't downconvert from the master you merely changed sample rate, which will cause the lower slower. Everybody else is chasing down their troubleshooting suggestions but I know it's happening in your ProTools. Maybe Toast is down converting it to 32.5 kHz sampling? I rather doubt that.

You'll find it we know you will.
Mx. Remy Ann David

I'd be more inclined to think that toast isn't converting it at all Remy. That's my main point of focus. It could be either. The wav in CD player slow thing has happened to me before so I think it could still be either. But I think he should just try everything we all suggest systematically in order to isolate the issue. In troubleshooting anything, isolating things is the bit that speeds up fixing it rather than just guessing at it as you quite blatantly know so I think nothing should be pushed aside just yet until this has been narrowed down. It's still at a stage where it could be anything.

Interesting one this!

Right, I'm on a mission with all of this this weekend. I'll start with Toast and .wav conversion because it's more of an area that i understand and I can check reasonably easily and I'm fairly certain that the recorded tracks are at 44.1.

After this, I'm going to have to delve into the inner depths of pro tools and learn some stuff about what the MTP and midi in general does. I thought I could leave that to keyboard players!!!

Ok, I've done a lot of messing around in the burning process and can eliminate that it's anything to do with this. The itunes MP3 conversion still played slow.

It looks very much like it's the MTP....unfortunately I don't have the instructions for this and it's not really my area of expertise but after a brief fiddle this is what's happened:

Under the 'sync' menu it looks very much like the internal master sync was set with the word clock out at 48k. I've changed this to 44.1k (as I think this is what should have happened. I now have the issue that playback from the audio in pro tools itself is slow - as slow as the original cd that's been burnt.

Now what do I do?

Darren

Yeah, no one ever listens to me.
As I said earlier, if all the 882s are set to slave, then nothing you do in PT will change the sample rate.
I also said, If there is a cable connecting the 882 to your MTP, (and BTW can you provide more info on that device, model #, brand etc) disconnect that cable for now and the 882 should return to the Master Light being lit, in which case you can now control it from the PT software.
I would start there, since at this point you don't need the MTP. And no sense even hooking it up until you get a manual for it.

All evidence pointed to this the moment you said there was an MTP involved. Since the CD played back fine only going through the PT hardware but nowhere else. There was nothing you were doing wrong in the bouncing or burning process. Those are easy straightforward procedures.

The MTP is not essential in running PT. So disconnect it for now and run more tests using the PT software to change the sample rate.
That information is also available looking at the front panel of the 882. It will tell you what the sample rate is, and who is the master.
This link will provide info on the 882
http://archive.digidesign.com/support/docs/882_20_IO_Guide.pdf
enjoy.

t

More info on the models:
3 x digidesign 882
1 x Mark of the unicorns MTP AV

I'll start disconnecting!!!

natural:
LMAO

Sorry, when you said DIGI MTP, I thought you meant DIGIDESIGN. The MOTU MTP is the one I was referring to. I do have that and can answer your questions.
The bad news is that the manual for that device seems to be difficult to come by. You will also need the CLOCKWORKS driver installed to communicate with the MTP.
I see you also reported (several posts back) that all your 882's were in slave mode.
I have a high level of confidence that your problem is most definitely the MTP playing the role of master clock.
After you disconnect- (power the units off first) power up again, and when you change the sample rate in PT, you should see the sample rate on the 882 change as well.

CLARIFICATION - You won't see the sample rate on the 882 change when bouncing. Only when setting the session sample rate.

TheJackAttack - thank you. I was hoping that it came of as intended without me having to put the little smiley thingy in there.

I have made a horrendous error here and misread. I thought you said that the Itunes file played correctly and it only played incorrectly in a normal CD system.

My mistake. That's what led be to believe what I did in the first place.