As you can see from my avatar I am a fan of MS technique. The setup I use is a Sennheiser MKH30 for the side mic, and one of (dependant on application) MKH40/50/60 for the mid mic. The suspension shown is a Rycote INV-7 HG MKiii clipped on the MKH30, and a pair of "Back to Back" clips to snap onto the mid mic.

If you need to capture sounds outdoors a wind shield system is an absolute must.

This setup is not cheap, but it is a beautiful system that can work for a lifetime. You may get lucky and find a used system, but folks tend to pick a system and hold it for the duration of their career.

Their are other options from Neumann and Schoeps in the same price range, and a few budget options by other makers. If you are doing this for hire you will not want to go the budget route, imo.

Sennheiser MKH30 https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/79495-REG/Sennheiser_MKH30_P48_MKH_30_Bi_Directional_Microphone.html

Sennheiser MKH 40 https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/79496-REG/Sennheiser_MKH40_P48_MKH_40_Microphone.html

Sennheiser MKH 50 https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/79497-REG/Sennheiser_MKH50_P48_MKH_50_Microphone.html?sts=pi&pim=Y

Sennheiser MKH60 https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/79498-REG/Sennheiser_MKH60_P48_MKH_60_P48_Short.html

Rycote Invision Mount https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/554999-REG/Rycote_041107_INV_7_InVision_Indoor_Microphone.html

Rycote Cyclone Windshield System https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1378422-REG/rycote_089121_stereo_cyclone_mid_side_windshield.html

I just watched the video clip that shows the mics you show in the thumbnail.

The two mics shown are manufactured by Schoeps, CMC6 body w/MK41 capsule (mid) and CMC6 body w/MK8 capsule (side).

CMC6 Body (x2) https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/401442-REG/Schoeps_CMC_6UG_CMC6_U_12_48_Volt_Phantom.html

MK41 Capsule https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/403524-REG/Schoeps_MK_41G_MK41_Supercardioid_Capsule.html

MK8 Capsule https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/405411-REG/Schoeps_MK_8G_MK8_Figure_Eight_Capsule.html

ronmac
Thanks for your response!

although i cant fault your answer, that is way out of my budget, will have to deal with a low budget one for now, and do it in timing with wind spped and direction.

but will bear your messages in mind for the future, when my budget increases.

Pray tell; how can such a high cost be justified for these sound microphones?

furbzeyyy, post: 464421, member: 51926 wrote: ronmac
Thanks for your response!

Pray tell; how can such a high cost be justified for these sound microphones?

The high price is justified by the market demands for an un-compromisingly high quality build and performance product. It is just that simple.

Compare the price of any high quality, un-compromising product. eg. a Dollar Store steak knife to a surgeon's scalpel.

The differences really are that dramatic. The additional expense may appear unrealistic at first, but in the case of these specialized capture tools, the ability to have faith in the quality of the capture and the need to present the absolute highest quality capture for post production (where minute differences in quality may be dramatically amplified) justify the investment. A competitive market dictates that to get work you must deliver no less than state of the art, or at least no worse than your nearest competitor.

The marketplace for these products is small, relative to other items, therefore demand a higher cost to recover sunk costs of research, design, engineering and manufacturing. The tolerances are much tighter than manufacturing a SM58 or $30 shotgun mic.

furbzeyyy, post: 464421, member: 51926 wrote: Pray tell; how can such a high cost be justified for these sound microphones?

Microphones come in various flavors, quality and precision.
You are looking for shotgun mics and many are available under 100$ but M/S array ask for a figure of 8 microphone (2 capsules going in different directions..
I'm not an expert in Shotguns but I bet there isn't a lot of them having figure of 8 specially if you want a noiseless transparent one..
Most recording studios have mics ranging from 100$ to 5000$ and bigger studios have some going up to 15 - 20 000$
Home studios can do acceptable jobs with a few mics ranged from 100$ to 1000$
But what you need to understand is that what ever the price, they all interpret sounds differently, either is a pleasant way or not..

The MKH40/30 combo is, imo, the absolute best M/S combo made today. Nobody (not even Neumann or Schoeps) make a more symmetrically matched front to back figure of 8 mic capsule, the most critical specification for a side mic, than the MKH30. Its single membrane capsule is tuned to perfection and electronically biased and balanced using a unique design . Almost every other design, including dual diaphragm LD mics, fall far short in matching polar response on each side. A few ribbon mics do (eg. Rode NTR), but they are also the exception in that category.

ronmac pcrecord

thanks for the additional information, it makes sense.

Ill surely invest in higher quality audio products, which are more expensive in future, but for now, im unfortunately stuck with a low budget, but will bear you guys advise in mind for future audio investments.

Last question;
- what kind of timeframe am i looking at for learning general audio workflow? if that makes sense please?

furbzeyyy, post: 464429, member: 51926 wrote: - what kind of timeframe am i looking at for learning general audio workflow? if that makes sense please?

It all depends of the recording activity. I've been at it for 25years and still learning stuff..
If it's just capturing audio for vlogs, it's not so complicated. Recording a full band with an acoustic drum.. is another story..

pcrecord
- i need to learn audio for a videogame DLC:
- voiceovers (basic - radio chatter frequency buzz)
- sound fx (basic)

i got a guy who can do the rest of the audio stuff

furbzeyyy, post: 464434, member: 51926 wrote: pcrecord
- i need to learn audio for a videogame DLC:
- voiceovers (basic - radio chatter frequency buzz)
- sound fx (basic)

i got a guy who can do the rest of the audio stuff

That's quite a list !

Again I can't tell you how long it takes to learn all this.. Some schooling can speed the process and lets you start on strong bases.

-Audio for games is like any other music, except they are often severed in different movements (like in classic music) that can be triggered by the storyline of the game.
Many game musics are done with virtual intruments or samples... I honestly don't know if bands are invited to perform in studio for some games.. could be cool to produce tho..

- Voice over is not so hard, needs a good treated room a nice pre, a nice mic. Most U87 inspired would do.
Next it depend on the performer, knowing proximity effect and gain staging..

- Sound FX, like folley sound ? Those are harder to do. specially in nature. Of course someone could buy an already done package.
Many virtual instrument can save time and money, having a 50 000$ piano at your finger tips (midi controler tips) isn't a bad idea..

They say games and movies are 2 area where recording still bloom. Nice for you if you can make your place !

ronmac, post: 464427, member: 24337 wrote: The MKH40/30 combo is, imo, the absolute best M/S combo made today. Nobody (not even Neumann or Schoeps) make a more symmetrically matched front to back figure of 8 mic capsule, the most critical specification for a side mic, than the MKH30. Its single membrane capsule is tuned to perfection and electronically biased and balanced using a unique design . Almost every other design, including dual diaphragm LD mics, fall far short in matching polar response on each side. A few ribbon mics do (eg. Rode NTR), but they are also the exception in that category.

furbzeyyy, post: 464429, member: 51926 wrote: ronmac pcrecord

thanks for the additional information, it makes sense.

Ill surely invest in higher quality audio products, which are more expensive in future, but for now, im unfortunately stuck with a low budget, but will bear you guys advise in mind for future audio investments.

Last question;
- what kind of timeframe am i looking at for learning general audio workflow? if that makes sense please?

one important thing to keep in mind is the mics you choose should be of the same kind. the MHK 30/40 combo is a perfect example. another example would be any multi pattern mic pair with one in cardioid and one in figure of 8. the mics should matched to achieve true M/S.

Kurt Foster, post: 464454, member: 7836 wrote: one important thing to keep in mind is the mics you choose should be of the same kind. the MHK 30/40 combo is a perfect example. another example would be any multi pattern mic pair with one in cardioid and one in figure of 8. the mics should matched to achieve true M/S.

In addition, this means you should't mix a ribbon mic with a condenser or a dynamic mic with a condenser, etc...
It's not that it won't work, it's just that the stereo image will be OFF.

pcrecord Kurt Foster ronmac

Thanks again guys for additional tips, really helping me in the forward direction!

Arrived!
- its finally came through the post, the same model x2! (GTX SG300) x2 (personally think ive done quite well with this purchase lol)

Features;
It has a switch, that 'narrows the pickup more' 1.
- But the same guy said that this mic has 'strong back and side rejection, because you can turn the gain up of your subject, without picking other surrounding sounds) 2.

Recording Scenario#1
a) Climbing high obstacle (clothes scuffle, breath/grunt)
b) Combat boots impacting different relevant surfaces

Questions:
1. Pick up and play - So, im guessing, it can be a pick up and play to a certain extent? i can insert the 3.5mm jack into laptop, record via (Adobe Audition), and tweak as necessary right?
2. Is there any quick pointers you can give in how i should set up the recording station? wind parameters outside right now are near non existant.
3. Problem - how can i 'turn the gain up of your subject, without picking other surrounding sounds', in the most optimal way possible? Is it possible to remove the surrounding sounds via (my program - adobe audition)?
4. Additional microphone - CONTACT/HYDRO microphone? is this recommend, or? 3.

Thank you again :)

1. (3:25 - 3:45) (

2. (3:45 - 4:00)(

3. (3:40 - 4:38)(

Attached files

I might be wrong but from the descriptions, the QTX Sg300 Shotgun Microphone Polar patterns are cardioid or hypercardioid (switchable).
So you won't be able to make a M/S config with them. You need at least 1 mic in figure of 8 to do M/S which we've been trying to explain from the beginning.

What does that mean ? With 2 SG300 on top of each other, you won't get a stereo image. Unless you place the mics apart or pointing in different directions..
The OP showed a M/S configuration that's why we all went that route in our comments..

pcrecord

Well, thats where i have no knowledge and treading down the wrong path unknowingly lol, oops.

' Unless you place the mics apart or pointing in different directions..', so, how and where should i do that? i can still get something workable as end result, right? (i hope lol)

furbzeyyy, post: 464468, member: 51926 wrote: pcrecord

Well, thats where i have no knowledge and treading down the wrong path unknowingly lol, oops.

' Unless you place the mics apart or pointing in different directions..', so, how and where should i do that? i can still get something workable as end result, right? (i hope lol)

It depends what you record;
For exemple, recording walking steps of one person, doesn't need to be stereo, you can record in mono and pan it to fit the image later.. You can even record many takes and place them in the stereo image and even add reverb later.
But for a stereo ambiant recording where you hear what is around.. 2 mono shotgun ain't going to cut it..

Here is an idea of how foley sounds are recorded..

WHY did you buy the GTX SG300? It's a pretty horrible microphone and is NOT a shotgun. I have 4 here I would have given you one. They are a very bog standard cheap electret cardioid microphone. Inside one element is situated half way down and then the other is in front of it. The switching combines the two to give the effect of narrowing - I say the effect, because the sound is just thinner sounding. They are NOT shotgun, and at best consider them as OK cardioid, or weedy hyper cardioid. We also thought you wanted stereo? You can't just pair these up, because the foam windshields they come with are not much use in even modest wind, so you need proper wind protection.

You have bought very basic, ordinary mono microphones that are marketed as video mics, for very directional performance, and they simply aren't. As a basic cardioid, in a long tube, they're kind of entry models - and worse still, the capsules are rigidly mounted, meaning handling noise - the ones I had about fifteen years ago needed isolation mounts and these cost more than the mics.

Not remotely a quality product - but one that does function. You got taken in by the marketing. I wish you'd done a bit of research - we thought from your image supplied you wanted proper movie quality stereo audio capture. This is fine stuck on a video camera for beginners.

paulears

Thanks for your response.

Had bought it because it looked like the closest resemblance to what i seen on the video, it had a switch, and had some level of narrowed recording and elimination of rear and side recording, my fundamental lack of knowledge, aswell as a low budget.

But you did hit the nail on the head, but hoping it can do the trick, and get the recording of scenario#1 tested for quality assurance, see if it is workable.

For the next project, im hoping will have more of a budget to get whats required.

Question:
What is the best anticipated potential end result of what im looking to achieve for Scenario#1?
a) /10
b) additional description?

pcrecord paulears ronmac Kurt Foster

sorry, but i would like repost a commented i made earlier, just so we can stay on track please, if thats ok :)
as follows;

Questions:
1. Pick up and play - So, im guessing, it can be a pick up and play to a certain extent? i can insert the 3.5mm jack into laptop, record via (Adobe Audition), and tweak as necessary right?
2. Is there any quick pointers you can give in how i should set up the recording station? wind parameters outside right now are near non existant.
3. Problem - how can i 'turn the gain up of your subject, without picking other surrounding sounds', in the most optimal way possible? Is it possible to remove the surrounding sounds via (my program - adobe audition)?
4. Additional microphone - CONTACT/HYDRO microphone? is this recommend, or? 3.

i'm lost now. you are all over the place on this. do you want M/S or not? M/S will pick up everything. that's the whole idea of it. if you want to isolate the subject then close mics or a lav mic is the solution. two different approaches.

Contact/hydro? You want to record underwater, or pick up sound via vibration?

This is completely mad! You now don't want to record outside any longer? I'M REALLY CONFUSED!

You can plug the mic into your laptop and record with audition. Microphone day one at the local college will show you the basic physics - the mic picks up sound according to it's pickup polar pattern. ANY sound that is in the mic's frequency response - so that's probably 30Hz - 18Khz typically, will be recorded. You can cut the bottom off to remove the low frequency hum from a dodgy aircon unit, you can cut off everything above 7Khz to trim out some of the chirping noises from insects, and you can even cut or boost little bits of what is left - but without spending a very large amount of money on clever processors - way above what Audition can do - you cannot control sounds you don't want in any practical sense and leave sound that sounds nice. Mic basics are get close to the wanted sound, stay away from unwanted sounds, choose a mic that works for the situation. One size does not fit all! You need to spend a few hours doing research. Basic stuff first, maybe ending up at the DPA microphone university -but don't start there, you've got lots of learning to do. Plug the microphone in and experiment with how it captures sound. Ask questions here on what happens.

We are now recording in MONO - stereo directional mics - like in your original question are way, way in the future for you.

Kurt Foster - sorry, i just know nothing, like jon snow, sorry

paulears - ok, thanks for the well articulated response, and have taken in your critique, and advise for a few hours learning, as for this mono stereo, thats just went over my head, but all in all helped give me some guidance in the right direction, will experiment.

Question:
1. What/how/where - do i remove the bottom off to remove aircon, or the 7khz for chirping noises?
2. Clever processors? what do you mean by this? my mind goes as far as CPU processors lol.

1. Pick up and play - So, im guessing, it can be a pick up and play to a certain extent? i can insert the 3.5mm jack into laptop, record via (Adobe Audition), and tweak as necessary right?
Yes you could.. of course, computer sound cards aren't the best recording devices. To have better quality and possibly more control, it's best to have an audio interface (external unit) The preamps will give cleaner sound and you will be able to recording in 24bit instead of 16bit. This will allow better headroom and noise floor

2. Is there any quick pointers you can give in how i should set up the recording station? wind parameters outside right now are near non existant.
Again, the nature of the recording will differ the technique. Foley sounds are often recorded in a controled environement (an acousticly controled room/studio)

3. Problem - how can i 'turn the gain up of your subject, without picking other surrounding sounds', in the most optimal way possible? Is it possible to remove the surrounding sounds via (my program - adobe audition)?
The gain of the subject, you mean talk louder or walk while hitting the ground harder ? The obvious answer is get closer to the source and have a good preamp and mic that do not produce noise.
Removing parts of an audio signal is not what you want to prepare for. Audio is like a baked cake, there's no way to remove the eggs without affecting the whole cake.
That's why more and more audio recording are done in studio.
There is rare ambiant and nature recording still being done but I wouldn't venture doing so with the mics you have and an laptop. You'd be better of using a cellphone with a x/y mic..

4. Additional microphone - CONTACT/HYDRO microphone? is this recommend, or? 3.
Come on, are you going to record dolphins ?
You should start by having 2 good microphones in a proper stereo configuration and a good audio recording device, either stand alone or an audio interface for your computer..
A zoom field recorder for exemple, comes with the recorder and stereo mics in one package.. Zoom H5 or others.

Now don't get me wrong I love to help.. but I fear that all that info will be futil if you go the cheap way like you did with the mics...

furbzeyyy, post: 464475, member: 51926 wrote: 1. What/how/where - do i remove the bottom off to remove aircon, or the 7khz for chirping noises?

The noise certainly is what your equipement is producing by itself, cheap mics, cheap soundcard.
There is some restoration software like iZotope RX but it's better to use the proper tools and choose a place to record only the sounds you want to record..
This means shutting down your AC, or your car if you record in the field.

pcrecord

Thanks for your informative response, youve answered every question parallel to the level of knowledge i possess, that helps. so, will not send you any additional unrequired response dialogue, but, i have every intention to invest more into higher quality equipment in the future.

(i hope by saying this next sentence, you will no longer think any advice given to me is futile); Any help given to me wont be futile, as i have every intention of investing in higher quality equipment in the future, so all experimeting done by me, questions asked, advice given will be in good stead and end in a positive, worthy outcome!! Thanks again :)

pcrecord, post: 464477, member: 46460 wrote: The noise certainly is what your equipement is producing by itself, cheap mics, cheap soundcard.
There is some restoration software like iZotope RX but it's better to use the proper tools and choose a place to record only the sounds you want to record..
This means shutting down your AC, or your car if you record in the field.

paulears - Ok, will bear these in mind, think its time i turn my bedroom into a studio! (may help me in my workflow and production approach also)

pcrecord Kurt Foster ronmac paulears

Hey all, after some consideration and sleeping on it, think will have to give the job out to someone else, as wont be able to purchase the equipment, or learn in a feasible timeframe, and guarantee to make a high quality sound.

However i will still endeavour to learn more about audio, more in an indirect capacity for now.

Other notes:
Thanks everyone for your input, advice, answers and guidance notes.

ONE POSITIVE:
- Can use these microphones for my podcast in the future, so, not all is lost :)

Yes - the real thing about them is that they perform as well as most cheap condenser mics - the snag is that they look like the kind of mics you put in your picture - but don't perform like them. For speech, close in, with a windshield they're acceptable. Loads of things in audio take far more experience than people think. Stereo miking, outside is one of the tough ones. To keep the wind out can easily cost you a grand!

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