You get what you pay for and $4000 is not going to get you much. You might want to shop for used stuff. You'd be wise to make a complete list of every single item you want and/or will need down to the last cable and adapater before you worry about exactly what specificly you should buy. You need to decide how many tracks/channels, if you need to use the PC at all, and many other details.

You obviouisly feel the same way I do. You can make damn fine recording with that budget IMO.

If it were me I'd get that Alesis HD24 24 Track Recorder. A CD Burner for mixdowns, and an A&H GL22000. If you shop around that comes to exactly $4k new, and damned if you can't get cabling thrown in for free when you're spending that much cash.

If you shop used though, you'd have some left over for effects if you want them.

Just throwing out an idea here...

I just went through a similar exersize and wound up with:

New computer (built by www.advanceddesignky.com)
Aardvark Q10 (8 preamps and A/D D/A converters)
Sonar XL software
Oz Audio 6 channel headphone amp

I actually bought two Q10's. That gives me 16 inputs that I can use all at once. I monitor direcly from the Q10 outs to the headphone amp.

This set up (plus monitors, cables, and mics) has given me just about everything I need.

For better or worse, I do not have a proper mixer. It is all done in the box.

Since my initial purchase I have added a few compressors and different sounding preamps.

Results:
http://
http://www.soundclick.com/danwhitakercountryband

Jim

I'd get a used G4 ($700)
Logic Pro ($999)
Roxio Toast w/Jam ($150)
(You can sub a cheap PC/Cubase/Peak for around the same dinero)
Yamaha MSP5 ($500)
Logic Control (~$700 used) for the hands on control.
Lynx L22 or RME HDSP 9632 ($650-700)
Samson C-Control ($99)
Cables, etc ($200)

There u have it.

The only thing you left out Mark is the 2 channel quality Pre amp which will cost from 1100.00 up.

Is this for a demo recording or do you intend to do basic tracks at home and take overdubs to a pro studio later?

I'd spend it on the following gear, to make it count since you'll need good HD recording capabilities and good near-field monitors:

Music XPC - $1,600
Digi 001 (used on eBay) - $550
DynAudio BM6a - $1,700

With the remainder, I guess mic pre would be best or maybe a small-ish mixer console e.g. Mackie 1402-VLZ Pro.

Good luck!

Assuming you could use the computer you are on now
RME Multiface $650 8 I/O plus digital I/O for later expansion.
RME interface for the multiface for Laptop or Desktop(depending on what you have) $260.00
JLM tmp8 $2000 eight channels of pre.
usb or firewire cd burner $100.
cubase SL 299.
Partition Magic $70 To create a second bootable installtion on your computer
Extra hard drive $250
cables $275.
Yamaha msp5 $500.
Yes I know it's $4,500.
I just couldn't find a way to do it cheaper without making some compromises.

Thank you all for the recommendations. This will be a good place for me to start catching up. Some of these things I have never heard of...

As to what this is used for...

The truth is that I have been out of the business for years. The last studio I was on staff with was Producer's Workshop In Hollywood (see Steely Dan's Aja, Gaucho, Pink Floyd's The Wall, Fleetwood Mac Rumors). But it was a totally analog studio. Our recorder was a 24-track Steven's (a modified 3M) owned by Bob Ezrin (he lent it to the studio after theirs blew up). The last actual session I recorded was in NYC ('93) at a 24-track. It was an opera with a live orchestra and 4 vocalists.

Anyway - I transformed to a new business world - the Web, back in the early 90s, and I have been out of recording completely. I have a home studio for my own songs, (not to take tracks to a pro studio later).

I have a Zoom 10-track I got on Ebay for $400. It's cute, but not-patchable and noisy. I started wondering what else was out there. I saw Pro-tools, and I realize now it is state-of-the-art. I need to learn more about it.

I am very computer-adept, but I do not like the idea of doing everything with software. I like to have dials and faders and a patchbay in front of me. When mixing, I move quickly, and to have to navigate menues and screens all the time seems like a huge inconvenience to me. Honestly, I have never created an automated mix, and my recording technique is built upon having to "mix" as little as possible. Just put the faders up and roll the tape.

I think if I had a serious software-based studio one thing I would invest in is multiple computer monitors just so I could see everything that is happening.

I just wanted to know what "state-of-the-art" for home multi-track recording is. As noted, there are now options not available before: ADAT and Hard-disk recording.

What about all-in-one hard-disk recorders like Roland 16-tracks (16 is about all I would ever need). How are they for sonic quality, versatile inserts, and ease of use?

Music XPC?

$1600 is a lot for another computer. Plus I already have a great computer setup in my home, P4 266, 516MB Ram, with 3 monitor screens.

Who out there has built a music recording computer from scratch? I'll bet I could do it for less that $800.

Who has used their home computer, but with a new hard-drive and OS installation? What are the drawbacks?

I use my home computer. There is no drawback(except for extra hard drive space taken up by a second installation of the operating system) if it is set up in dual boot with partition magic. All you have to do is reboot and select the operating system partition you want. I also have two hard drives one dedicated to audio the other to the OS and swap file. You have a great computer for it you could get a real good track count with what you have(two monitors does help). I have a feeling though you would be more comfortable with the alesis hd24 and a mixer since there would be no learning curve for you there. Arm the tracks on the hd24 and press record. The hd24 has an eithernet connection so you can dump the files to your computer to burn them to cd.

I have used an old Roland vs880 before and it is fun but it has its limitations(quality and flexibility) as well plus if you hate endless menus on your computer wait till you look at one of these. I have not used any newer ones though and can't comment on them.

If I were in your position, I would do exactly what I did before I got my RADAR setup - find a used Roland 2480 (make sure the preamps have been done by Roland) and spend the other $2000 on a couple of basic mics, cables and some reasonable monitors - it will be tight, but it can be done if you look for good used deals.
With a CRT monitor (cheap) you can do edits easily, work a real control surface and get great results! The internal effects are surprisingly good too! I did 3 commercially released CDs on my 2480 before I got my RADAR. They are all doing well locally and no one has ever commented negatively on the quality. Now that Roland has the O/S problems under control and are doing the preamp fix - these are (IMNTHO) the best all in one box around!
(Dead Link Removed)

Good luck

Dan

Who out there has built a music recording computer from scratch? I'll bet I could do it for less that [sic] $800.

I really don't think so... unless you want to buy couple of generations old.

Since you already have a P4 running in the GHz range you should be fine to run ProTools LE. Beware, it's a beast and needs the Digi hardware, e.g. AudioMedia III card.

If you really prefer a physical mixer / console since you have a load of experience with those, I'd have to change my orig. recommendation and say go for the all-in-one Alesis HD recorder.

Extra $$ can be spent easily on accessories or extra MIDI gear.

Originally posted by cruisemates:
Music XPC?

$1600 is a lot for another computer. Plus I already have a great computer setup in my home, P4 266, 516MB Ram, with 3 monitor screens.

266Mhz processor or was that a typo?

Where in Phoenix? I live in AJ and could possibly come over and help you out.

I also agree with the idea about the hd24 by alesis. It functions more or less as a tape recorder...plus it sounds great and is rock solid. Then find a decent board and cd burner, an Alesis masterlink, etc. for mixing and you're set!

I personally do most my work on protools but if you are not already familiar with it and work on computers a lot then it can get in the way. If you do want to use protools later the hd24 will still be of use to you. You can usually find one of the regular hd24's for about 1000 on ebay, new ones are like 2000.

haha It took me too much research, time, and money to just give this info out. I will tell you this info though. Trust only your ears and you best advice is probably something you don't want to believe. 90 percent of people willing to give information freely don't know jack. Know exactly you want to do for music or to have it do for you.

Being as you are computer literate, build up your current home rig,including dedicating a drive just for the music....get a very good set of monitors....get an interface for your mics and instruments and buy a ProTools rig.Two grand can get you into the Digi 002 with a decent bundle of plugs.It also has 8 channels of decent mic pres.If its demo's you're looking at this is a great way to achieve a very very good sound with not a lot of outlay and also its expandable.The computer will be the part that you absolutely need to have up to the highest standards as music takes a lot of processor power.And yeah...get two monitors.(screens)A real good set of playback monitors will be about half your budget.

I agree with Dave, use half the budget for good monitors.
Then buy an MBox or 002 and a KSM44 and SM57.

All set.

Steve

You want hands on dials? You want digital equipment that's set up like a classic recording studio? Forget the Roland VS2480 - great machine but what will cost you less and is much much better - really the top of the line of these types of machines is an Akai DPS24. Hands on faders and dials - better preamps than Rolands, a mixer that can be routed in just about any way, NO data compression like Roland, in fact the sound has got to be the best of any of these standalones. This is THE most complete, most professional unit of its kind - and it's oly $2500 new right now. With care, know-how and talent, it's quite capable of recording pro music.
Do yourself a favor and check it out online.
This will provide everything that the Allesis 24 mentioned does - plus a lot more - inboard FX for one that are actually usable.
Here are some links:
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/May02/articles/akaidps24.asp?session=ac92b7461fc219aadc2fc71b7375b142
also:
http://pub52.ezboard.com/fdpsworldfrm3

This latter has a great bunch of pros and novices who will answer anything you want to ask about this unit.

"haha It took me too much research, time, and money to just give this info out. I will tell you this info though. Trust only your ears and you best advice is probably something you don't want to believe. 90 percent of people willing to give information freely don't know jack. Know exactly you want to do for music or to have it do for you."

I must partially agree here. I've spent two years with pretty good recording equipment and am only now making my first recordings that are worthy of being called pro. Why? Because even if you were allowed access into the most expensive studio in the world with the best gear around, you would make crap recordings at first. What a lot of studio owners don't want anyone to know is that machines like the Roland VS2480, the Yamaha 4416 and the Akai DPS24 are quite capable of turning out pro recordings. And when people go out and get these machines and turn out crap recordings - everyone says "see? I told you! You have to come to a studio!" The trick is, it's not all the gear - it's the years of experience they have in recording. I've researched, experimented, recorded, pulled my hair out, researched more, read my ass off, mixed one song for 20 hours learning how to mix..... Knowing how to record is not a laughing matter. So if you want the gear, be prepared to learn as much as you can.
If you want a good sound right away, learn as much as you can about recording and record something decent - THEN - do NOT mix it yourself - hire a pro to do it and then hire a pro to master it. These steps will mean a lot. If you want to do everything yourself, have LOTS of patience. For me, it's worth it - but only now that I know a few things. When I began this, I did not know it would take this long!

90 percent of people willing to give information freely don't know jack.

...and the other 10% hang out here!
:c:

At'sa fact David!!!Well said.Its why this place is the best.A LOT of the percentage who come here actually do know jack and are willing to share it freely.

Randy...

I missed your note where you said "Where in Phoenix? I live in AJ and could possibly come over and help you out." I live in Phoenix near Piestowa (hah!) Peak. I wouldn't talking on the phone with you. What studio are you with? email me at paulmottercruisemates.com. (don't worry, it's a website about cruise ships).

Mackie HR824 Monitors - used $800
Lynx II version A soundcard- $899 you'll need to negotiate this price but I have done it.
Sonar Producer - $500
Great River preamp - $1000
UAD-1 effects card - $400 if you negotiate
RNC compressor - you'll need it for limiting and compressing going into the PC.
Cables - $200

This gives you a top quality recording chain and excellent ADDA conversion. The Mackies will ensure you hear everything properly. I assume you have the PC.

Forget the mixer and multiple channels unless you want to record live drums. This setup will ensure top quality tracks, you can use the Great River for voice, bass and guitar.

You know that saying the Mackie HR824 sound accurate can cause a huge uproar amoungst the knowledgeable...I actually prefer the 624's as the bass and low mids is bit firmer.

Originally posted by Mark Jones:
I'd get a used G4 ($700)
Logic Pro ($999)
Roxio Toast w/Jam ($150)
(You can sub a cheap PC/Cubase/Peak for around the same dinero)
Yamaha MSP5 ($500)
Logic Control (~$700 used) for the hands on control.
Lynx L22 or RME HDSP 9632 ($650-700)
Samson C-Control ($99)
Cables, etc ($200)

There u have it.

The bottomline is that you can really get something decent within your budget that will serve you very well as a singer/songwriter who wants to put out some demos. I more or less fully second Mark's suggestions although a couple of good microphones and at least one good preamp are VERY important.

The choice of speakers, mics and preamps can turn into a religious dispute but feel free to browse this website for a lot of very useful information in that category.

I personally would always go with a computer based solution vs. a standalone workstation or even a standalone recorder. But that could easily turn into another religious dispute.

Anyway, start with Mark's suggestions, add a couple of decent mics and a good preamp and you are in very good shape.

Just my opinion,

MisterBlue.

The biggest problem with the integrated systems is they completely loose their value. But then again so does a computer (but it is really easy to find other uses for a computer when it runs out of gas).

Speakers are good forever, microphones generally lose very little value and almost never need upgrades. Good pre-amps are pretty much the same.

Just something to consider.

And regarding free advice. There are those that guard their secrets and others that openly share. I always find the more I share the more I learn.

25 years of experience and still learning tons.

Steve

The 824's sound great and accurate when set up properly...and you can say they don't but to me they do. Everyone's ears are different and those monitors sound more accurate to me than the gene's...and I like listening to them more..the gene's annoy me for some reason. It's all about personal taste at that point I believe..

Originally posted by MassProduced:

Who out there has built a music recording computer from scratch? I'll bet I could do it for less that [sic] $800.

I really don't think so... unless you want to buy couple of generations old.

AMD Athlon XP 2800+ with 333mhz Front Side Bus - $112.00
Biostar M7VIZ KM400 DDR V/S/L/U2 Motherboard w/video - $59.00
1 Gig of DDR RAM - $180.00
Silent Fan - $40.00
Bad-ASS Quite Antec Case - $127.00
Western Digital 20 Gig 7200RPM Hard Drive for OS - $58.00
Western Digital 120 Gig 7200RPM - 8MB Cache for files - $99.00
Samsung 52X CD Burner - $40.00
Floppy Drive - $14
Logitech Navigator DUO / Wireless Mouse and Keyboard - $64.00
Philips Head Screwdriver - $2.99

Sense of accomplishment from putting a dent in the Best Buy retail armor - PRICELESS!

Total Price $793.00 all available from http://www.tcwo.com - with free shipping none the less.

I'm sure since you are a computer guy, you've got a couple OS's laying around. You can pick up a 17" CRT for $20 if you don't happen to have one.

You can build a hellacious machine nowadays for not much money.

True, there is no audio interface built in on this machine, but there is both Firewire and USB2.

Enjoy!

J... :c:

Originally posted by MassProduced:
[QB]

Who out there has built a music recording computer from scratch? I'll bet I could do it for less that [sic] $800.

I really don't think so... unless you want to buy couple of generations old.

you can build rock solid pc's for under 800. go to duc.digidesign.com go to windows forum and at the top theres a sticky for best pc under1000. its not outdated either.

First and foremost a good mixer with at least 8 channels. Then its a choice between buying an ADAT or a good audio card. I would get both. and use the audio card and PC to do the editing and redumping the audio back to ADAT. Then buy a good CD burner. Of course you gotta but good monitors too. With the rest of the $$$ you can buy mics effects and what not. Remember, you can rent stuff if you have to later on if you can't buy it now.

An used G4- $700- $900
Digital performer- $500
Grace 101 preamp $500 (2ch sebatron, $950)
A decent Mic $200- $1000*
Toast for burning $150
powered monitors $500- $1000 (go listen!)
*(SP C1, $200, Rode NT1A, $200, SP T3, $500, SP C3- $350, baby bottle, $500, Akg C414 $700, rode ntk $500, Rose K2 $700, used blueberry- $700, used Neumann tlm 103 $700, soundelux U195- $1150)

Mix and match as needed to stay within budget

Just so you know - after all this time I have decided to go with the Digi002 with Protools LE. I already have the computer, mic, and nearfield monitors.

I will also get an external firewire drive to record my audio. That way I can take my tracks to pro studios for mixing.

Another idea I had to actually make some money was possibly using my setup for overdubs for other clients.

Back when I owned and worked in studios, I realized that there is a lot of room and equipment in beigger studios that is overkill for overdubbing. I worked in a small studio that had a tube U-47, and LA-2A compressor. Often people would bring us master tapes for vocals, etc. Why not?

I have a great mic, if I invest in a great channel and a vintage compressor I could get a killer vocal sound and afford to charge a lot less than the big studios with the 56 channel SSL and 4000 sq ft.