I think you should design an entire SUITE of these tools, Tom. I often tell clients I've added a "Talent Enhancer" Plug in for the session, and everyone laughs and enjoys the concept. (Don't we all WISH!)

Then there's the "No Suck" plug-in, and the "More Me" monitor filter, and so on.

I'm sure there's many more possibilities out there.

Whata think?

I think your ch'i is seriously outa' whack, dewd.
I agree, it would be a hot seller, and a lot of folks would probably be thrilled if it did nothing more than widen the image and limit the #&@% out of it. You could just lie about the rest of the features.

I personally think this kind of purchase is great. A few guys go out and buy a ton of gear (great for the economy) they dive in and record their CD. After they record their CD they listen to it. Needless to say the value of the experienced engineer goes up at this point. What better way to put a value on experience. They have their CD, they compare it to their friends CD who used someone who knew what they were doing.

Everyone knows the industry is in a bad way. The engineers that are still working are the ones that use their experience to their benifit. They don't do the whole project, they work on parts of the project that they are needed for. Then they end up wearing the producer hat. They teach their clients to do the mundane stuff, it saves their clients money, they make more CD's. The client has bought all of the gear so they don't have to. Eventually the client sells all the gear to another band because it's too time consuming to learn everything, and they recommend the engineer to the new band.

How is this a bad thing?

Thomas W. Bethel wrote: JACKOFFALL

hahhahahahaha!!!!!

Michael Fossenkemper wrote: I personally think this kind of purchase is great. A few guys go out and buy a ton of gear (great for the economy) they dive in and record their CD. After they record their CD they listen to it. Needless to say the value of the experienced engineer goes up at this point. What better way to put a value on experience. They have their CD, they compare it to their friends CD who used someone who knew what they were doing.

Everyone knows the industry is in a bad way. The engineers that are still working are the ones that use their experience to their benefit. They don't do the whole project, they work on parts of the project that they are needed for. Then they end up wearing the producer hat. They teach their clients to do the mundane stuff, it saves their clients money, they make more CD's. The client has bought all of the gear so they don't have to. Eventually the client sells all the gear to another band because it's too time consuming to learn everything, and they recommend the engineer to the new band.

How is this a bad thing?

It is not a bad thing at all.

Too bad a lot of people don't read this forum before they go out and spend a butt load for a bunch of equipment that they either 1) don't know or want to take the time to learn how to use or 2) will use badly and wonder why everything they do sounds like S**T.

We have become a multiple use operation and will help people with what ever part of their project we can help them with. From simple listening to producing, to mastering, to restoration. We have always been client centered and it has helped us weather the current "problems" with the audio industry in general.

It has been my experience that a lot of musicians start their own studios to "save money" or "to have artistic control" over their material. They play around with it for a couple of months then their significant other says "you have all that junk sitting around and it costs a lot of money so either start a REAL studio and charge people for your time or sell it" So the person does what their significant other tells them to and you see FOR SALE complete studio or you see a new studio open up which lasts for about 6 months max and then a FOR SALE complete studio ads go up.

I was in a studio in Kentucky. It was one of the best home studios I had ever seen. The acoustics were fantastic. The equipment was all nicely racked and the whole place looked (and that is the operative word) great but there was ONE small problem and that was that none of the equipment was hooked up to anything and all the wall plates in the studio had not been wired and there were no cables from the amplifier to the speakers. Turns out that the person who owned the studio in his house was doing this so he could go down and lay down some tracks when he wanted to but never got around to wiring up anything or using the studio. So here was a very nice studio completely useless and very beautiful to look at. According to him he had about 40K invested in the studio and the equipment and it all had a layer of dust on it.

Whatever floats your boat.....

Same thing happens in photography, video, web design, books, bike riding, sailing, scuba diving, etc...

Everyone I know has grand dreams and goes out and buys the whole kit thinking they are going to be the next... whatever. I've done it, you've done it, they've done it. I've got so much junk that I don't even know what to start with when the weekend comes around. I'm sure a professional diver would come over to my house and slap me around for not using my dive gear like it should be used. It's great stuff, but I only get to use it maybe once a year and in my mind i'm going to find a treasure chest of silver coins at the bottom of the ocean.

It's a hobby. Sure at the time i've had many big dreams of making money at my hobbies but they end up fading away after a couple of years. I still have a ton of fun trying though. For a lot of people, music is their hobby. If they have talent, I try to encourage it. If they make something, great. If not, who cares. They made the money, they have the right to spend it.

Oh by the way, I have some great dive gear for sale if anyone is interested.

Michael Fossenkemper wrote: Same thing happens in photography, video, web design, books, bike riding, sailing, scuba diving, etc...

Everyone I know has grand dreams and goes out and buys the whole kit thinking they are going to be the next... whatever. I've done it, you've done it, they've done it. I've got so much junk that I don't even know what to start with when the weekend comes around. I'm sure a professional diver would come over to my house and slap me around for not using my dive gear like it should be used. It's great stuff, but I only get to use it maybe once a year and in my mind I'm going to find a treasure chest of silver coins at the bottom of the ocean.

It's a hobby. Sure at the time I've had many big dreams of making money at my hobbies but they end up fading away after a couple of years. I still have a ton of fun trying though. For a lot of people, music is their hobby. If they have talent, I try to encourage it. If they make something, great. If not, who cares. They made the money, they have the right to spend it.

Oh by the way, I have some great dive gear for sale if anyone is interested.

Slight difference.....

You are talking about hobbies.

I am talking about people trying to make money with their "investment" either by doing their own work (thereby not spending money at a studios that would normally supply that service) or going into direct competition with someone who does this for a living even though they have nary a clue to what it is that they are doing.

Sailing, Scuba diving, biking are not MONEY making endeavors nor were they ever designed to be unless you are doing them to make money like Lance Armstrong.

Today EVERYONE wants to do everything themselves. Watch TV for a while and see how many programs are designed for the DIY person. I am surprised that there is no channel for audio recording, mastering and music.

I have a camera, I take pictures I have won some awards and had by stuff on UPI and API do I consider myself a professional photographer? NO

I have Photoshop. I know how to do some basic work in it. Do I list myself as a Graphic Designer NO

I have a lathe and a drill press and can do most things in metal or wood. Do not consider myself a machinist or a carpenter both of which are professions that take YEARS to master? NO

I have a video camera that I use for doing work for clients. Am I a pro? - YES. Do I get paid for what I do? YES.

I am a mastering engineer. I do mastering for people. I get paid to do that mastering. Am I a professional? YES.

There are things that I can do. There are things that I cannot do and have to hire done for me. It is NO DIFFERENT in audio. You should do what you can and do it as well as you can and either take the time to learn how to do other things OR hire someone who is an expert to do them FOR YOU. There is NO substitute for experience and their is no plug in or piece of equipment that is the holy grail when it comes to making things sound good. It takes time, talent and LOTS and LOTS of EXPERIENCE!

This is something that the current generation does not seem to want to understand or care about. It is all about NOW. What can I do NOW. How can I make it work for me NOW? Why can't someone on some list serve tell me what it is that I am doing wrong NOW? "Why can't I have everything I want NOW!

What ever floats your boat!

Almost every single band that I know that makes their living recording and performing music, hires professionals for all aspects. Every single one hires a professional for most aspects. The ones that don't, don't make money, at least not enough to hire anyone with. But they still want to try to make something. So they buy the basic tools and give it a go, maybe charge a small fee to help pay for the gear from a few smaller bands that can't afford any gear. These are not professionals, no one is making enough to come close to living on. Therefore it's a hobbie.

I'd love to see some photos sometime if you wouldn't mind sharing.

Oh, yeah. don't forget to toss all those pots and pans out because every meal you cook yourself, you're taking money out of a chefs pocket. throw that plunger out too, hire a pro. Bug spray, shame on you, hire an exterminator.

well they have it in some artists respect. its called auto tune!

Michael Fossenkemper wrote: Oh, yeah. don't forget to toss all those pots and pans out because every meal you cook yourself, you're taking money out of a chefs pocket. throw that plunger out too, hire a pro. Bug spray, shame on you, hire an exterminator.

Michael

I do hire an exterminator when I have a hive of yellow jackets in my wall. I do go out for lunch at the local restaurants and if my sewer line gets plugged I call in a plumber. If I need to kill a fly I use a fly swatter, if I want to cook myself I heat something up in the microwave (no threats to any chef) and if a washer on a faucet needs changing I do it myself. If you want to take the analogy further. I can cut a strait line with a hand saw but if I want a wall built for my studio I hire a carpenter. If I need a part made for a tape deck I go to a professional but if I need a spacer washer with a bigger hole diameter I do it on my own lathe. I have nothing against do it yourself.

I do have something against someone with cracked software, a computer and a couple of computer speakers with NO (make that ZERO) experience and or knowledge calling him or her self a MASTERING ENGINEER and taking business away from me and many others because many people are too stupid to know the difference between a mastering engineer with 38 years of experience and some newbie. They are only going by the PRICE and you know what - they get exactly what they pay for.

Things are definitely different in NY than the are in the Midwest. One of my really good friends near here was doing 4 mastering jobs a week a year ago now he is doing zero mastering job and he is a real pro. if he were in New York he would have a line from 42nd street to the Village waiting to get in to use his services. He is now into print media.

I really don't know how to convince people from the coasts that it is really different in the heartland. We have lots of basement studios not many pro studios and the pro studios that are here are selling SSL time for $35.00 per hour (off peak) and still can't find clients.

Most "professional" bands here still try and do most things themselves. They keep saying that they are saving money or do it to have creative control over the project or they want to record "when we want to" and not have to book time in a studio. In reality they are not making much money themselves and don't want to spend any of it if they can help it.

Don't forget that Cleveland, Ohio for the last three or four years has been ranked the poorest city in the US. The county I live in has 45% of its residents on welfare or Title 8. Not a very good environment for making money in audio or anything else for that matter.

I am NOT complaining just stating some things that I feel strongly about.

FWIW

David French wrote: I'd love to see some photos sometime if you wouldn't mind sharing.

If you will send me your email address I will get them off to you.

Michael Fossenkemper wrote: Almost every single band that I know that makes their living recording and performing music, hires professionals for all aspects. Every single one hires a professional for most aspects. The ones that don't, don't make money, at least not enough to hire anyone with. But they still want to try to make something. So they buy the basic tools and give it a go, maybe charge a small fee to help pay for the gear from a few smaller bands that can't afford any gear. These are not professionals, no one is making enough to come close to living on. Therefore it's a hobbie.

You obviously don't know too many Midwest bands. Not the same here, There are LOTS of bands, not many venues and the bar owners know this and in some cases are either making the bands pay to play or making them bring in 50 friends before the get paid. In the old days a good band would make $500 a night playing today they are luckly to be making $40.00 per member and that is for 6 to 8 hours of playing. Not even minimum wage.

It is strange that kids who know full well that it will take them a month to get through Halo 3 think that they will learn a DAW in a weekend.

Anyway, I think that you are missing one of the valid motivations for know-nothing DIY recording. There are so few venues now for performing that recording is a much easier and more available way of developing material than it was in the past. As you point out, a lot of bands have a hard time getting a dozen hours of live play per month. They simply don't have anything ready for a pro studio. Someone who has been playing live every night for years knows what works and can walk into a studio and lay it down in a short time. A band that never gets out of the basement might be better off messing around with recorded tracks and handing them to their friends or putting them on myspace for reactions.

The days of the Beatles playing live for 50 hours a week for 2 years in Hamburg and then spending 12 hours to record a "live in the studio" album consisting of the best 10 of the 300 songs they knew are long gone.

very nice idea, if you need some good software testers let me know, lol

Thomas, I do know a lot of midwest bands. A good 35% of the work I do comes from the midwest. Heck, I had 3 projects this month from Idaho. It's not really known for their music scene. NYC is no different from Ohio. The only difference is most of bands here can't afford a car much less parking.

BobRogers wrote:
The days of the Beatles playing live for 50 hours a week for 2 years in Hamburg and then spending 12 hours to record a "live in the studio" album consisting of the best 10 of the 300 songs they knew are long gone.

:P How true, How true... The Beatles paid their dues and really got great in Hamburg. Thats why they captured the spirits on those recordings. When I hear those tracks my mind is like a child again, every time. Hard to believe John Lennon had a nasty cold on the vox on twist n shout. He had only one take to get it right. Thats flipping crazy huh? Furthermore, all the sound engineers looked more like scientists in todays world. The amount of artistry is the most valuable plugin. Just think w/ out that plugin we would'nt need plugins....

There are so many ways to look at this, and so many lessons to be learned here....

Tom, I feel your pain, and nothing aggravates me more than seeing untrained people doing things they have no business doing. Unfortunately, with today's proliferation of faster, quicker, cheaper, "easier" to use gadgets, we see it in every walk of life. It is happening in every business, though, and so the bar gets raised - or moved or simply rendered useless - and the affected industries have to adapt.

Sometimes they die before they adapt, or the industries (audio and desktop publishing come to mind) change so radically over a few years they're almost unrecognizable when the spinning, errr...."adaptation".... finally stops.

The availability of cheap/affordable gear has had both good and bad effects on the world of recording: Yes, many more folks can rehearse in their bedrooms, jam in virtual bands, and some - a few small number - can break out and do something productive with it all. I see this is a good thing at its core; it keeps a lot of otherwise dangerous people out of trouble in their "Formative" years. :twisted: In some cases, it gets the smarter ones ready for the big time.

On the other hand, it gets mucked up when some of this stuff gets passed off as 'polished' or professional or "Mastered" material. We all know what a joke that is. It's as unrealistic as all those impossible movie endings where the one-in-a-zillion talentless (but lots of heart!) guy/gal wins the world series, gets the girl/guy, hits the bullseye, wins the lottery, etc. etc. In reality, most are just over-confident schlubs who don't know mastering from their left foot. Unfortunately, in today's world, far too many of these so called "Mastered" CDs make it out the door and into our ears. It's not pretty. ( I always say: "Just because you can, doesn't always mean you SHOULD." )

I'll bet though, if you could find a way to run the true numbers, the number of real "Mastering" projects is about the same as it's ever been. There are just too many "Wanna-bee's" out there taking up the low end of the range of available mastering gigs. Think about life in the 60's, 70's or even 80's. There was no internet, no Amazon.com, no ebay, and Sam Ash was mostly still a big store in NYC that was more legend than sales muscle. Everyone else went to their local mom and pop store, and recording gear (what you could find at LRE or Radio Shack) was for nerds and geeks in training. We've got more of EVERYTHING now, and it only stands to reason that people are going to be suckered into the lure of "DIY."

Perhaps you don't want these clients anyway; no matter how tempting it might seem to try to grab these folks as clients, I'm guessing these fools wouldn't know enough to spend REAL money on one of us, anyway.

Two recent mastering stories here come to mind:

1. A classical client that I've been playing "phone tag" with over the last couple of years FINALLY brought in a project to me to be "Mastered." It was nicely performed, and very well recorded. BUT, there were problems, and thankfully, she knew enough to call in a pro when it was obvious.

We had the multitrack premixed stereo "Stems" to work with, and found several "Left & Right" Pannings were wrong, there was HVAC noise in several quiet movements, and she needed some DSP things done that her friend's starter-set of software didn't have (or he didn't know how to use). I really enjoyed this TRUE "Mastering" session; I fixed her panning issues, I speed (not pitch)-corrected a slow passage for her, I resequenced the tracks in a different order, I removed the HVAC noises, and I showed her the difference between low "Room ambience" between movements and "Digital Black/Absolute Zero" between works. She was thrilled; couldn't wait to pay me for the final master (with full TOC printout for the replicator), and wants to get back in to work on another project ASAP.

This was all due to my years of experience & better monitors, if nothing else.

2. As I mentioned in another post here, I'm currently working on a compilation of other folks' tracks for a Promotional CD for a festival, and the sound of the "Mastered" material I've been given ranges from very good to simply awful. (Tom, you'd laugh, cry and probably scream at some of this stuff....) Hearing dozens of tracks done in so many different environments, either by the artists themselves or professional mastering engineers, it's amazing how many ways people can screw even the simplest things up.

I'm betting the #1 cause of so many problems is bad monitoring, (and #2 is lack of experience) but they're not listening to ME for advice, most are happily oblivious to the problem, which I THINK is the core of that Tom and I and many others are annoyed about.

I don't think this is ever going to go away, it's just going to raise the bar yet again, and we as recording & mastering engineers have to always be looking for better and more informed customers, and count on their ability to know (and hear) the difference between McDonald's and Ruth's Chris's.

Some time ago I caught up with a fella who was a friend of a friend. I offered them to come check out my place and see if they'd like to record. In reply I got a smug "Why would I pay you to do it when I can do it myself?"

Touche.

Not wanting to step on any toes, I said (with a hint of sarcasm) "You're absolutely right".

I've heard their recordings. They weren't terrible, but I knew I would be able to get them a much better end product.

I guess my point is that there are too many people out there with money to blow that DO take money away from people. I have nothing against people wanting to explore and try things on their own. But, I've found that this person was just like many others that feel they can do everything on their own.

Perhaps I just don't understand ...

Joe H

Thanks for the thoughtful reply.

I use to think that quality would win out over price but in the WALMART world we are all living in at present it seems that the average person is not looking for quality they are looking for quantity and/or price.

What really upsets me is the average person calling me up with one of the following scenarios.

1. "I have a CD release party next week. I have to get my stuff mastered and to the replicator. I have $200.00 left to do the mastering and their are 14 songs. Can you do this and I need it done today."

2. "I took my stuff to be mastered and it really sounds like S**T after the 'mastering engineer' got finished with it. Can you take what he has done and make it sound good? Oh and I need this done ASAP and I don't have any money left.

3. I would like to get my stuff mastered and I understand from a lot of my friends that you are the best in the business in Northern Ohio. How much to do charge (insert me saying what our current rates are) Oh darn I can't afford that how about $15.00 per hour or $10.00 per song?"

4. "I want to talk to you about mastering. I am trying to do the mastering on my album myself but don't seem to be able to get the sound I was looking for and wonder if you could tell me how to do it."

I rarely if ever get this one any more.

"I have a project that needs mastering. I would like to know what your current rates are and what your time table is for getting this done. I have 14 songs and each one is about 3 minutes in length. I know you can't give me an estimate of how long it will take until I get you the songs so I will send them over to you to listen to. I have not scheduled my CD release party since I want to make sure I have the CDs in my possession before I do so. Let me know what the total cost will be and when you can do it. Thanks!"

We have tried to meet peoples concerns about the "high cost of mastering" by offering indie rates and I still get people asking if we can "give them a break"

We are very efficient and most mastering done at our current rates comes in at under $400.00 but to some people this is like buying an expensive sports car when all they really want is their stuff "mastered"

The guy down the street (actually in Cleveland) who also does mastering is running into the same problems I am.

The studios that offer mastering are giving it away to keep their clients in their studio so they can make more money. I have heard rates from ZERO to $100 for the mastering. They are using their Mackie 824s in the same bad sounding acoustics that they did the tracking and the mixing and there is no separate pair of ears to catch the mistakes that have been their since the beginning but are, by now, completely tuned out.

The people that offer mastering on the INTERNET or on Craig's list may be doing the best mastering in the world but for $20.00 per hour or $10 per song they can't possibly be doing this and have this be their only job. The economics of running a REAL business would not allow for this.

I have heard some self mastering and it is like self barbering the idea is there but the final product leaves much to the imagination of the person doing the mastering or the barbering.

I use to let this get me upset but then I do a band like the Dirty Rooks from Chicago and realize that there are real pros out their doing really good work and more than happy to pay for and receive top level mastering at a REASONABLE price and I feel all warm and comfy inside

Thanks again!

I think that there's still a need (as well as a market) for high-end, well done stuff, but the mid to lower-end market is all but consumed by the DIYer's, and I doubt it's going to change any time soon, if ever.

I CAN hear the difference (and I'm sure you can too) between a so-so recording, done with a nice $200 mic, a decent USB pre, and an OK talent with no producer or direction vs. the really good stuff. You know it the moment you hear it. I'm listening to this pile of material for the project I mentioned, and it's almost sad how GOOD the stuff could have been in the right hands (not even mine, just someone - ANYONE - that knows how to make it all shine.)

I hear it all the time; my wife's best friend's husband is a piano-rocker wanna be, and his friend is a guitarist/singer wanna-be, and they've brought two CDs to me to listen to that are just AWFUL in every sense of the word. Big deal; they bought a MAC with ProTools and some mics, and think they're stars. They spend some $$ on a CD duper at Best Buy or Guitar Center, and off they go, selling lousy looking and sounding copies to friends and other dupes who still think just because it's on a CD, it MUST be good. I don't know what to tell these guys; they stink before the microphone is even turned on, so why would I want their biz?

I think some of these DIY'ers are doing us all a favor, but maybe that's me. Like those who steal music & movies, they aren't serious enough about to pay for it anyway. So try to "let it go, Louie." :wink:

The worthy ones will come around, when/if they're ready. The tricky part is letting them know you're out there.

Michael Fossenkemper wrote: Thomas, I do know a lot of midwest bands. A good 35% of the work I do comes from the midwest. Heck, I had 3 projects this month from Idaho. It's not really known for their music scene. NYC is no different from Ohio. The only difference is most of bands here can't afford a car much less parking.

I think Idaho would be more in the Pacific North West than the Midwest but I get your point.

fourone3 wrote: Some time ago I caught up with a fella who was a friend of a friend. I offered them to come check out my place and see if they'd like to record. In reply I got a smug "Why would I pay you to do it when I can do it myself?"

Touche.

Not wanting to step on any toes, I said (with a hint of sarcasm) "You're absolutely right".

I've heard their recordings. They weren't terrible, but I knew I would be able to get them a much better end product.

I guess my point is that there are too many people out there with money to blow that DO take money away from people. I have nothing against people wanting to explore and try things on their own. But, I've found that this person was just like many others that feel they can do everything on their own.

Perhaps I just don't understand ...

In this day of IPODs and MP3s and car stereos with smiley EQs I think people have somewhat lost their musical taste or their sense of value. Music has become the wallpaper of life. Something to fill in the voids or drown out the noise from the commute. I don't think most people could tell you what differentiates a good recording from a bad and depending on their age may not really care. The whole loudness race is getting to the point of ridiculousness and there are only so many audio rules you can break before what you have is pure noise and not music at all. We are darn sure close to that level now.

People have no sense of what they are producing and with the INTERNET they can post it in a millisecond for everyone else to see or hear. I had one mastering client recently say to me can't you make my stuff sound more like the MP3 I am use to listening to? They sing off key, they don't know how to tune their instruments or play them and besides the five chords they know can't play anything else. These same people decide to go out an purchase a recording system so they can do CDs and then they take this poorly recorded poorly played mess to a mastering engineer and tell him or her to "make it sound good" or they do the mastering themselves also with out a clue as to what they are doing.

I understand I just don't know what anyone can do about it.

Frustrating. Very frustrating.

So being a guy who hasn't been doing this as long as some of the guys and gals here, do you think it's a battle worth fighting, or is it truly inevitable that the quality of music will decline?

And if it does decline, why have all the nice gear? Who'll care about high sample rates, quality converters, clean mics and pres? Why not just record everything using a USB mic straight to MP3? I ain't fartin' on no snare drum.

What's the point of all the nice pro and pro/consumer gear if it's not being used properly?

-Intrigued and confused ...

I don't really have much to add in regards to mastering on this one as I've b*tched about this way too much as it is.

However, I have a funny/sad related story that happened just this week (Tuesday).

I got a call from what initially sounded like a young woman (my thoughts were 20-25 years of age) who was asking about laying down some country music. I was quite content to work with a young woman laying down country tracks, so I continued to chat and answer her questions.

It became apparent after about 2 to 3 minutes that this young woman was actually a young man whose voice had not yet dropped...

The project then began to change as it also now included a little bit of rap....now some gangsta rap...(Can you say A.D.D.?)

So then, he decided to hit me up with the "hard" questions...
Do you use "Newman" microphones (yup, Newman...)
Do you use ProTools and Waves?
What are your rates?

When I told him that my rates are $75 and hour if I come to them or $50 an hour if he comes to me, he nearly spit his chocolate milk out of his nose!

The previous studio he had just spoken with was charging $25 for a 4 hour block. Of course, he uses ProTools (M-Powered with his cheap-butt interface), Waves plugins (which, I'm assuming are cracked) and he doesn't have any "Newman" mics, but he does have a really nice CAD microphone and a couple Behringers and a handful of Shure PG57s.

Gee...I wonder why I shut my commercial studio down after having it open for only a year!

I'd consider re-opening, but the location/rent has to be the EXACT spot that I want (in the historic downtown strip with the happening live-music scene... Actually, I know the exact shop that I want and it could be VERY easily converted to a studio. A couple of hippies have opened a paraphanalia shop in there for the time being. They'll be gone in a year or so...)

By the way, I also understand it from the photography side of the house. My wife is a professional photographer and she deals with this crap just as I do. She went to a nice photo school, she has so many independent training courses it's not even funny and has been doing photography for money for nearly 12 years now yet she still has to explain why her rates (which are some of the most affordable in town for a full wedding service - $2800 which includes 8 hours, 2 photographers, 4 cameras, a fully filled leather or wood album and about 50 additional photos of various sizes.....Other photographers in this area charge between $5K and $15K and provide less for that money). She gets the third degree from people toting $300 digital cameras who don't know what medium format is either. Just like people who want "ProTools" and "Neumann (Newman)", people insist that she use a Nikon or Canon (she shoots on Minolta Maxxum 7D bodies for 35mm work).

I guess, what I mean to say is that we're not alone.

rockstardave wrote: [quote=Thomas W. Bethel]JACKOFFALL

hahhahahahaha!!!!!

I wonder how much of this comes from the "digital" hype used for marketing just about anything these days. The assumption that all things digital are high quality sound/picture.

With total disregard to the rest of the equation, all that matters is that it's "digital". :-?

Hear hear.

fourone3 wrote: Frustrating. Very frustrating.

So being a guy who hasn't been doing this as long as some of the guys and gals here, do you think it's a battle worth fighting, or is it truly inevitable that the quality of music will decline?

And if it does decline, why have all the nice gear? Who'll care about high sample rates, quality converters, clean mics and pres? Why not just record everything using a USB mic straight to MP3? I ain't fartin' on no snare drum.

What's the point of all the nice pro and pro/consumer gear if it's not being used properly?

-Intrigued and confused ...

People spend big bucks on equipment. They don't seem to spend the same amount on the acoustics which are just as important and they never seem to get around to reading the tech manuals or operator's guides and NEVER EVER take time to really learn the equipment before they start using it.

Anyone past the age of 18 probably knows how to drive an automatic transmission car. In the old days most cars were basically the same and you could go from one to the other without much problem they had a gas pedal, a brake and a steering wheel. You started the car in park, put the drive selector in R or D and drove off. Today most cars have so many safety lockouts and electronic devices that it is sometimes overwhelming and you can't just start the car. You have to have your foot on the brake the doors all have to be closed, the transmission selector HAS to be in park etc etc etc. So our lives are changing and EVERYTHING is becoming more and more complicated the same can be said for audio. We have a lot more choices and lots of processes on our DAWs that 10 years ago would not have been possible. But just like with cars you have to keep up and not ASSUME that you know what you are doing. In a car it can lead to accidents and maybe even death. In audio it can lead to a total meltdown and really bad audio being produced.

Audio is for the most part NOT rocket science. It is easy to learn how to do things the right way if people will take the time and gain the experience. This is a really good forum and there are lots of people here willing to share their knowledge but they can't give the people reading this forum their experience(s) and they cannot be inside their heads when they decide to record the bass smashed at 0 dBFS and then wonder why the bass has no dynamic range

When I got into audio the equipment in a pro audio studio and what was available for use in a home studio were light years apart. The consumer stuff was good but not in the same league as the pro stuff. Today the lines are more and more blurred and you can spend $1000 and get something that 20 years ago would have cost you $100,000 if you could even find one. You can have more audio power at your fingertips today than the Beatles had at the height of their career and you don't need Abby Road tech staff behind you making sure everything is working.

People today have almost unlimited resources upon which to draw but they do stupid things like use 31 presets on every track in their Pro Tools rig because they can not because they need them.

They have not learned the whys all they have learned is the hows.

Best of luck in trying to figure this all out.

I can tell you my story... I had a great advantage when I started working in audio: in my country few are great engineers with great sense of artistry, in the city I live in, EVERY so called "engineer" was either a DIY or a just-out-of-protools-recording-school type of "pro". So I just started out experimenting. My first recordings were crap of course I was totally aware of that, but I had some clients-pals that were willing to pay me to experiment recording their CDs, so i did (they had nothing to lose), I charged them about 5 bucks an hour or so, using nuendo 2 and a few mics I inherited from my brother in law (he worked at a radio station and owned 2 re27s and an AT4050, I bought 2 sm57´s and a couple of samsons to complete the rig). The best part is that at the time, many people liked the crap that I recorded and more clients came. So now I remodeled the studio, I have a 2 room (one live 17 square meter room and one 10 square meter isolation booth) studio with decent gear that I´ve been collecting these few years that passed by, and I still think I suck compared to the real pros (I only have like 3 or 4 years of experience). I´ve learned tons though, it´s not an easy business and I´ve improved a lot (obsessing with making better recordings every time). I´ve been experimenting with analog tracking and mastering, the new acoustics in the room help a whole lot and I´m really happy to know that I still have a bunch of new stuff to learn, but I can´t help hating when clients come and ask me stuff thinking that they know everything when they know absolutely nothing. Do you use pro tools? I´ve heard that everything sounds better in pro tools, that´s what the pro´s use, why doesn´t my Zoom 505 pedal sound like Zack Wilde´s guitar?, etc.

For example, the other day I was in a recording session that was turning out quite nicely, my Tascam 32 was in a friend´s house for repairs, so I used another friend´s Revox stereo reel to reel. I was taking my time tweaking the reel2reel and the eq for the bass tracks in the console to get "that" sound that we wanted when one of the guys in the band said "I would´ve recorded that in digital with my Pocket Pod (Line 6), it sounds just as good and it´s done in like 10 minutes, besides you have presets from all the famous guys and all the great amps". That really bothered me, but in the end it came out great, and the rest of the band was happy with the result, so in the end the results are the answer to stupidity, people that won´t pay for a great recording or a great master will feel really bad when they compare their bad recordings to great records, and they´ll learn from their experience like everyone else in this forum has.

By the way, there are NO good mastering engineers in this country, please move here and set up a good mastering studio you´ll have tons of work I promise, I have nowhere to send mastering gigs

maybe the problem with the Midwest music business is all the crappy music coming out of there. maybe i'm just an asshole

On another forum a person recently said that mastering as we know it will probably go the way of the DODO bird fairly soon. There are too many places doing "mastering" with less and less clients going to them since everyone seems to be doing it themselves. He went on to state that there will only be some of the big guys left who will be around to do work for the big clients. It should be noted that he is one of the BIG GUYS so he maybe more than a little biased.

When I made the switch from classical recording engineer to mastering engineer 12 years ago and started my business things were indeed different from what they are today. There were more mid level clients, the material they brought was in most cases well done and most sessions were fun to do, it was real hands on mastering and people were looking to me to make their stuff sound GREAT before it was replicated.

Fast forward to today. There are less and less mid level clients, the material they bring in is not as well done as it was 12 years ago, much of what I do today is in the realm of "sonic surgery" to get the material to the place where I can master it and people have the expectation that no matter how bad something sounds coming in, after it is mastered it will sound "commercial" (what ever that term really means) and will be the loudest baddest thing out there.

Clients don't budget for the mastering and they plan CD release parties before their stuff is mastered and ready for replication or in some cases before they are done mixing the music. So when they come here they are out of time and money. They don't understand what mastering can and cannot do, they are argumentative, they are in a hurry and the sessions can be, at times, almost confrontational because they see for the first time that their stuff is poorly done and they are now out of time, out of money and upset that I cannot wave my "magic mastering wand" and make all the bad notes, poorly played and pre distorted music sound like what they think it should sound like.

A good friend of mine is a terrific mastering engineer. He is very talented and a GREAT musician in his own right. He started doing mastering about three years ago and his studio was doing VERY WELL. He was doing 4 or more projects a week and everything seemed to be going his way. Recently I spoke to him and he is now doing graphic design and print jobbing and is no longer doing much mastering. He was hit with the same problems that everyone else seems to be going though right now. Too bad because he was providing a GREAT service at a reasonable rate and yet people could not see that they were getting a good value for their money.

I have another good friend who owns the best acoustic recording studio around. He is another GREAT musician and engineer and his studio was custom built by his he and his father and sounds REALLY REALLY GREAT but he has had to go out and find other employment since the studio sits empty for much of the time. His rates are more than reasonable, he does a good job of advertising and he is a GREAT person to work with and has very good ears. For some reason, known only to them, people don't want to use him preferring to go to their local GC and lay down four to six thousand dollars for a bunch of mismatched equipment and try and do it themselves. One of his former clients called me up and wanted to bring in some material that they had done after spending a bundle at GC. Their material was pre distorted the mix was really really bad and the vocals were buried. I asked the client why they did not use my friend anymore and he said " because we can do it ourselves and save money" I beg to differ...

Where will this all end???? I am not a mind reader or a mystic but I too can see the writing on the wall. It is not a pretty picture but I think that we have sunk as low as we can go and so it is only up from here and hopefully people will start to understand that just because you have a
boat load of equipment you still have to have the experience and the knowledge to be able to use it and maybe things will turn around. I can only hope.

Tom -

I feel your pain and most other "mid-level" mastering engineers as well.

After I shut down my commercial studio about a year and a half ago, I decided to take all the money from selling off the excess gear and buy a bunch of mastering stuff - Manley VariMu, Massive Passive, Crane Song Ibis, Prism Compressor and a few other things (to the tune of $15K - mostly used.)

Well, I finally just got rid of the last piece of high-end mastering gear.

I still do mastering, but almost every one of my clients wanted to do it all in the box. They'd ask why I was using old, outdated analog gear when plug-ins were the new rage. They'd want it pushed louder and louder and louder and frankly, the analog stuff just starts to sound too raw when pushed that loud (the digital stuff just sounds shitty.) I mean, I could push that VariMu to insanity, but the distortion became VERY clearly audible (likely around 10-15%), the Prism was a bit cleaner but when it started to distort, it was NOT pretty, much less so than the VariMu.

Now, I keep all my mastering in the box using UAD plug ins and a few others. The sad thing is, in doing this, I've only seen my business increase.

Another service I've been offering lately is mixing.

So many kids (or even adults) record a lot of tracks and the recordings themselves aren't half bad. It's the mixing that sucks. EQs and Compressors on every track, limited to hell, etc...

I have them bring me the tracks and I mix them for them and get much better sounds. Then, I break a cardinal rule and offer to master the tracks as well (or I've sent a few of the really good sounding clients up to Charlie Pilzer at Airshow Mastering just up the road).

The funny thing is, mixing is easy in comparison to mastering. It's sometimes a little more time consuming, but I have to say, you could almost follow a formula for the whole process whereas mastering is unique for each and every track. I have to often step away when I find myself falling in a rut - using the same chain all the time or the same EQ settings from track to track...

Mixing is where I'm taking my business right now and it seems to work pretty well.

Michael Fossenkemper wrote: I personally think this kind of purchase is great. A few guys go out and buy a ton of gear (great for the economy) they dive in and record their CD. After they record their CD they listen to it. Needless to say the value of the experienced engineer goes up at this point. What better way to put a value on experience. They have their CD, they compare it to their friends CD who used someone who knew what they were doing.

Agreed Michael.

I always thought that; a newbie tries to master their own CD, screws it up, gives up, and takes it to a real ME to fix it, who tells them to take it to his AE friend to remix it, maybe even recut it. A few weeks later they come back to the ME for mastering.

btw I thought of a PT plug-in. It's for music that's had the life edited out of it with PT or Nuendo... overly tuned and quantized if you will. It's called the Intoxilizer... makes everyone sounds as they'd had a few drinks during the session and played really loose.

JT

Thomas W. Bethel wrote:

I was in a studio in Kentucky. It was one of the best home studios I had ever seen. The acoustics were fantastic. The equipment was all nicely racked and the whole place looked (and that is the operative word) great but there was ONE small problem and that was that none of the equipment was hooked up to anything and all the wall plates in the studio had not been wired and there were no cables from the amplifier to the speakers. Turns out that the person who owned the studio in his house was doing this so he could go down and lay down some tracks when he wanted to but never got around to wiring up anything or using the studio. So here was a very nice studio completely useless and very beautiful to look at. According to him he had about 40K invested in the studio and the equipment and it all had a layer of dust on it.

Hmmm, must be nice!

I wanted to be a recording engineer since I was a teenager. I even took a couple of quarters of electronics school as a start. but I was married and the economics of life won out and I eventually gave up my dreams, gave up being a working musician, and even stopped playing or listening to music at all.

Fast Forward thrty years... Technology has now made it possible for me, with a relatively small $$ outlay compared to the $100 - $250K it took to build and outfit even the local studios I had recorded in, to record and mix music. Unlike many of the people who think they can "make it big in the music biz" with their DAW and Plugs, I just want to learn how to properly record and mix. I have no illusions of ever becoming a commercial studio engineer. In fact, a friend of a friend wants to bring her son over to record a vocal track to a pre-recorded CD, and I'm uncomfortable about that because I don't want the kid to be disappointed in his 1st "recording studio" experience. She even asked what I charged. I told her she could return the favor by singing on a couple of my tracks.

The point to all this rambling is that there are some of us out there that are willing to take the time to learn how to get the best sounds they can within the budget they have to work with. I was lucky enough to earn a little extra money this past year, so I could invest in some very budget gear to get me started. Now that I can actually record and mix sounds, I am trying to get the space to be better acousticaly. Then, as I earn a little extra money this next year, I'll invest in some better mics and preamps, continue to tune the rooms I record and mix in, continue to experiment with mic placement, and continue to read and try all the sugestions people in this forum offer.