Re: Life as a recording engineer

spitfire3416 wrote: I'm young, naive and know NOTHING about recording

Who needs school? Just go to Guitar Center, get an M-Box, and you are ready to go!
Good Luck

spitfire3416 wrote:

Okay, so I'm seriously considering what I want to do with my life and I know I want it to be something involved with music.

so I'm guessing you have no interest whatsoever in making money, raising a family, owning a home, etc.?

Seriously tho, I would look long and hard at depending on any music-related career being your 1st and full-time vocation. The scales are tipped way in the favor of the failure-to-earn-sufficient-money side.

One of my biggest regrets in life was not listening to my daddy when he said "Son, this music thing is alright, but just make sure you've got a real job to fall back on".

Have you taken a look at the placement rate vs. enrollment among graduates of recording schools, and the average pay rate. I'm sure the school showed you some glowing figures. I'd be sure to get a second and third opinion.

Not that really great careers as recording engineers aren't to be had, but I suspect most fully-employed working AEs started as gophers for no pay and worked their way up. Either that or had enough cash to buy the gear and learned by doing.

I'd be interested in hearing from some of the folks who have gone through these programs about whether or not the diploma was worth the expense, and if what they learned in school adequately prepared them for the real world of recording sound for a living.

Me? If I had $19K cash, I'd put it into making a couple of good sounding rooms and get some basic gear, a couple of decent mics and jump into doing.

Just my $.47 (adjusted for inflation and the price of oil)

I have been a professional audio engineer for 39+ years.

It is something that I enjoy doing and feel good about doing as a profession.

It is NOT financially rewarding but I have been able to pay the bills.

I would think carefully about what you are planning. Today anyone can go to GC and purchase some equipment and call themselves an audio engineer. There are simply too many people doing "audio" for anyone to make any real money at it. Larger studios are closing down and what was once a thriving growing studio business is not currently doing very well. The outlook for the next couple of years is for more large studios to close and more bedroom and basement studios opening up either as DIY endeavors or providing cheap recording and mix-downs for people who need recording done but can't afford the equipment to do it themselves or don't know how.

I would think you would be better off going to a 4 year college. Getting a degree in audio plus something else (finance, accounting, business) to pay the bills and go on from there. A broadly based college education will always be something that you can fall back on if the economic times go bad. A very focused education at one of the places as you describe maybe good but it is no substitute for a 4 year college degree.

I have had a lot of people who graduated from places like Full Sail apply for jobs here. They have worked with some of the best consoles and equipment in the world and seem to think that every studio has to have a Neve or SSL console. They also have gotten the idea that they need no additional training and that they "know it all". It is hard for them to understand that every studio is different and that every studio cannot afford an SSL or Neve console and may not really need that level of equipment for the jobs that they are doing. Of three most recent Full Sail graduates that have applied here one is currently selling cell phones for a living, one is working a GC and one is currently unemployed living in this parent's house. I am sure there are very successful graduates of these recording schools that are making a name for themselves in the business but I also think that the number of people who are really "making it" is very small compared to the number of students that graduate from these places every year.

YMMV

MTCW

I was going to go to a recording school when I was young and naive too. Then I went for a tour and the guy told me that I would be better off spending my tuition money on equipment and learning on my own. He wasn't much of a salesman.

I agree with Bill. Have a backup plan.

I went to a recording school.

I got out and found my way in the industry.

I cannot complain about the direction my life has taken since going to school to learn how to get along in this industry.

I never would have run monitors or FOH for Sister Hazel, The Newsboys, Otis Redding's son, Britney Spears, CC Deville, Kenny Loggins, or Kirk Franklin without it...

It is what it is, and like all learning - you only get out of it what you're willing to put into it.

My father is a retired teacher.
My aunt is a retired music teacher, my uncle a retired high school counselor.

I am a high school dropout who eventually figured out what he wanted to do with his life. Yeah, the dropping out part went over really well with my family!

School's cool, man. School's cool.

Oh, I just wanted to add this quick little thought I had about the industry:

The number one rule of recording school is: You DO NOT TALK ABOUT recording school!

The second rule of rcording school is: You DO NOT TALK ABOUT recording school!

Unless you're looking for a steady job or your fellow engineer tells you he went to a recording school first, that is.

:wink:

Whoops, apologies might be in order, Spitfire.
:oops:

Suspicious name + post which looked a lot like a sales pitch....I guess I jumped the gun assuming the worst. (please don't anyone reply with the "when you assume you make an...blah blah blah")

My serious reply would be, I made the decision about 14 years ago to take a risk and put the money I would have spent on college into recording gear (despite the warnings that a studio in such a small town would never make money). About the same time my best friend went to a very well known recording school in Orlando (you know the one).

He has been working Full Time in audio since he graduated, I am still only a part-timer.

The moral of this story is... we are BOTH very happy at what we are doing. I have no doubt that I would have been a better engineer if I had went to school for it, or moved to a big city and interned at a major studio, but I have fun doing "Demos" and my quality of life is A+++.

I came into the industry through a more convoluted manner. Neither my Mom or Dad are technically oriented. Never mind that both of my parents were successful orchestral & operatic performers. They gave all that stuff up to have me and my little brother. What a couple of dopes!

So I am early on transfixed over the family tape recorder. Thankfully Dad became an advertiser with his father and played violin for Motown to make extra money for the family. So being brought up in radio & TV stations & recording studios corrupted me early on. So I got my own battery operated tape recorder when I was seven. That got boring after a while and I got my Novice Amateur Radio License at 14. But I hated Morse code and really wasn't good with it. So at 15, I got my third class FCC radio telephone license. I was already making recordings for my friends and was practicing to become a "disc jockey" since I wanted to record music. I really hadn't realized the difference between a disc jockey and a recording engineer. I thought it was all the same stuff? Then came divorce & a move. My new high school in Baltimore, didn't have a radio station like the one in Detroit. So I cut all of my classes except for band and built my high school radio station. Unfortunately, at the end of my junior year, I was told I didn't have enough "gym" credits to graduate as a senior with my class! I thought they were kidding? They weren't. So I dropped out and got my GED in a single week! Thankfully, I also had 2 incredible mentors. One through a friend of the families. And one through a happenstance. These two gentlemen taught me most of what I know today. It was over 15 years of education by 2 electrical engineers who owned studios. Neither of which liked each other. It's OK, I loved them both. I am forever indebted to them.

At 19 I had actually enrolled in the Broadcasting Institute of Maryland. I was one of the most difficult and unruly students and the first of my class to end up as a disc jockey on the number one rock station in Baltimore before I ever graduated. Never mind about the fact that I had worked for the largest recording studio in Baltimore and other radio stations prior to my schooling. But it did teach me that I had learned what I needed to know about broadcasting. I'm not really all the hot about all of the recording schools that have sprung up just to keep a studio's doors open. But you'll still get some of the important basics to get you started. Degree, diploma, certificate, means nothing. It means you're smart enough to get through the tests and has no bearing upon your talents or capabilities. That's the passion factor. All of which is the most important.

No, your chances of making a great living are slim. And if you're stupid like me, without much of a business plan, you'll cash in your 401(k) to purchase your console thinking you'll make enough money before retirement. WRONG! It's a good thing I've gotten fairly competent as a TV/video Technical Director, Shooter, Editor. But I don't think I'll be retiring at 65? At least I paid cash for all of my equipment and own everything out right. So even though business sucks right now, my overhead is virtually nonexistent. If I need to sell my equipment, I'll be able to buy a house since I won't live long enough to obtain a mortgage at my age. I had a house but divorce fixed that. So having something else to fall back on is really important. So I'm a Jackie of all media and mastering of one.

It's all really a crapshoot. Ask anyone who was extremely successful. It's like the lottery you have to play to win. You might get lucky? I've been modestly successful and quite happy with my 15 seconds of fame. Although I'd like another 15 seconds please. Three major award nominations just isn't enough!

My current situation is, I'm Finishing the fourth makeover/upgrade to my mobile remote truck over the past 17 years of operations. I'm hoping this will inspire more new business? So no junk in this truck (at least not much). It's not little either. It's as big as a Greyhound bus. All top shelf stuff. A new house at the time of my divorce would have been smarter. But no. I'm just a dumb recording engineer with the best sounding control room in Washington DC. And it's in a Mercedes-Benz 1117 truck. So I can take it with me when I die.

How about a cup of coffee? Decaffeinated please, with some Irish stuff.
Ms. Remy Ann David

I'm a 24 year old Engineering student, I do audio on the side.

In reality I'm a 24 year old musician bum who studies robotics on the side.

School is great for meeting people.

When I'm older, looking slightly creepy(er) and sick of being poor I'll stop studying and get a job. That way I can afford to keep my biggest addiction, music.

Go to the cheapest school you can find, with the hottest chicks, enjoy your youth and spend your time doing what you love.

Ms. David, your post is inspirational. I want a bus. Forget the coffee.
*Likes his Irish stuff neat, well spoken and outgoing*

Greener wrote:

Go to the cheapest school you can find, with the hottest chicks, enjoy your youth and spend your time doing what you love.

haha i doubt any recording school i go to is going to have the "hottest chicks" but i do feel you on enjoying my youth and doing what i enjoy to do while i'm young. i just worry things could go wrong real quick. i have 40k saved. i figured 20k for school then 20k in equipment and theres the last 5 years of my hard earned money out the door.. in a years time. wise idea? still not convinced it is.... SO MANY QUESTIONS RUNNING THROUGH MY HEAD!

Another thing I'd like to add to the thread:

I think that one of the best things about this industry, at least in my segment of it (primarily live productions), you really learn the value of teamwork. I have made a TON of connections, and have friends across the country due to the nature of the business. That to me is invaluable. It is a great feeling when you're able to sweat your ass off in the sun setting up a show, bitching, cursing, bustin' the other guys balls - but when all's said and done, the truss is in, the truck's packed, the gold bond has run it's course... you've made some lifelong acquaintances. Some of mine live close enough that we go fishing together, shoot pool, our families have get togethers.

My point?

I couldn't imagine any other job I'd ever want to have.
It isn't easy, but it ain't rocket science either.
It's a passion, a calling. But you've gotta be able to take your fair share of abuse, and you've gotta constantly prove yourself - that's part of the fun...

(Where the hell am I supposed to find a couple of Newman KM84s, 4 channels of Shure H4, and a BTR800 kit at 11:28 on a Friday night???)

Hehehe... And so it goes...

I know it's not all that Audio related... Well half isnt.

Put 20 grand in Govt. assured stocks or bonds. For about 10% return. Any interest it earns just reinvest. Leave for 10 years.

Spend the other 20 on books and gear. Fake it till you make it.

I don't have to pay for my school upfront. Only have to pay the Govt. back if I end up earning money...
Such a big if. :P

Either way, if you can save 40 grand in 5 years. You got it made.

Which Government?

Psyche...

I was thinking that exact thing.

Came back to say: When I save Govt. I don't meant yours.

It shouldn't be too hard to find something low low low low risk with ten points return.

Which Government?
The Commonwealth Government.
(from a bank add... not funny)

spitfire3416 wrote: i have 40k saved.

At your age, with 40 large...who needs any of this...you need to focus on making that 40K a 1.5M.

i've been second guessing myself if this is really what i want to do for the past few days now.. until i read your post bent.. thanx. i needed that. theres just so many people on here that knock going into this field as a profession its hard not to be leery about it. hey bent, how long have you been doing audio recording?

Well, truth be told, I went to a "recording" school, but recording has never paid my bills unlike a number of the folks on this site.

I've been doing both live sound and studio work for 15 years. I started working with local bands in the mid nineties, worked in every dark, dirty dive bar around Florida (FUN!).

In 1998 I got a job at Disney as an audio technician - kinda fell into that one, the school I went to, though very close to Disney World, never bothered to tell us that there were JOBS there for us audio folk... Imagine how pissed I was when I learned that... But, I was able to cut my chops on a shoestring 'budget' every weekend, so I guess that's where my real learning took place. A school only teaches you so much, but it's a good start - just don't let the fact that you've gone to school go to your head. That's the problem with most ARTI / FS / Valencia / etc. grads - they get out thinking they know it all, when more often than not they don't know squat...

Good luck in whichever path you choose!

nice man... i'm torn between sae in ny and arti in orlando. or if i should just get a job interning and learn most of what i need to know that way. then just read a shit load of books and put my money towards equipment. having gone to school and with your experience which route do you think would be best suited for me? i think school is a good idea because it gets you off to a good start but im not the kind of guy who stays set in his ways. im always willing to take on new advice and if i'm going for this i'm going balls out. should i go to school or just learn by interning and practicing?

No matter what you do you should properly cloth yourself...

If you have the money you could simply join your local IATSE and start pushing boxes on gigs that are set up through the hall, or you could go to SAE or ARTI (from ARTI you could put in a resume at Disney or Universal since you'll likely be in Orlando anyway).

You might be able to take a few live classes at FS in Winter Park and do the same as the ARTI route...

The recording side of the industry is HARD to break into, especially now what with the GC and MF box stores making it sooo easy for people to record themselves.

Live production work is all around and easier to find a job in, IMHO.
You can make a decent living pushing roadcases and prepping / striking shows - and you can build a resume a lot faster than working in a studio.
IATSE up north is pretty cutthroat, down south it's a bit more laid back. You could sit on the bench for weeks before you get called on to work a show in NY...

I think that studio work will come back, but it's gonna be a while before anyone new can pay the bills through it, 4 or 5 more years I'm guessing...

PS, I hope you don't mind but I changed the title of this thread to more accurately reflect the direction this discussion has taken.

And I've made it a sticky.

yea im actually more interested in doing live sound. i love music and going to shows so i guess that would be pretty ideal. do you have to pay to join this IATSE? what is it exactly?

http://www.iatse-intl.org/home.html

Working for Universal sounds like it would be cool.. if you apply there do you get any special accreditation for going to ARTI? Anybody else here who has gone to ARTI and can share some input on their experience there?

I'm also in an extremely similar situation and I'm glad I found this website because it seems exactly what I'm looking for to find answers.

So I went to the university my first year of college with no set major in mind. Had no idea what I wanted to do, just knew I should go to college. Well, due to not being motivated in any of the general studies I was in (my 2nd semester schedule for example included Political Science, Philosophy, Astronomy, and Sign Language) my grades were not the greatest. In fact, I had below a 2.0 gpa both semesters and ended up getting dropped from school for a semester. I'm allowed to come back in the Spring 2009 semester, providing I show I'm dedicated enough, and I can never get below a 2.0 gpa for a semester again or I'll be kicked out of school for 2 years. But in all common sense, it doesn't pay much to be in school and getting below a C average anyways.

About my GPA... First semester I got a 1.5 GPA. My grades were an F, a D+, two C's, and a B+ (I believe). Second semester I only took 4 classes to try and focus more on classes, when in reality I think it made it harder for me to improve my GPA since doing poorly in one class weighted more on my GPA. I got a 1.875 for 2nd semester after I got straight C's in every class but one, where I got a D+. Fucking Astronomy. After the shitty 1st semester I really tried hard to do better but realized my non interest in my classes (and still not knowing what I wanted to do) led to poor study habits again and not cutting down on the partying. After being dropped for a semester this has been one of the hugest wake up calls in my life so I would be an IDIOT to fuck up my 3rd and final chance and let my GPA get below a 2.0 again.

So after finding out I was getting kicked out, I decided I needed to decide what I wanted to do in life and major in in school. Music is a huge passion of mine and I wanted to involve my life in it's business somehow, so I found the closest Audio Engineering school (in Madison... Madison Media Institute). I realized that this might be a great thing for me. I liked the idea of Audio Recording but I'm a lot more interested in the Music Business aspect of it. I looked into it and decided I could get my 2 years at MMI in Audio Recording, then hopefully go on for more schooling and get a Music Business degree. The 2 year teaches a few biz classes so I figured going there would be a great start and get me experienced in the field.

After constantly looking online at people saying it's an extremely hard business to prosper in, make money in, etc, and after telling more and more relatives who arn't too thrilled, I've began to reconsider. I've realized that if I'm already at a university now, I mine as well take advantage of it, APPLY MYSELF, get good grades, and get out of this bad grade rut that I'm in. I know 99% now that I want to get involved in the Music Business somehow, and someone on another forum suggested just getting a general business degree at my uni because I could apply that at record labels or get internships with my level of education.

The school I attend[ed] (UW-Milwaukee) doesn't have any Audio Recording or Music Technology classes, just performance and education majors. However they do have a very nice business school, and a degree available in Business Marketing.

My question for you guys is, with my situation, which would be the best route for me? Should I go to the Audio Recording school, get the 2 years, and try and go on for more schooling? Or stay at my current uni and just get into the Business Marketing and hopefully be able to apply that the direction I want to (which is musically)?

Pro's and Con's of the Uni

Pros:
-Better degree? (Depending on if the school I choose after the 2 year Audio school isn't somehow better for the type of field I want to go into. However I haven't even asked for a list of schools that my Audio Recording school might transfer credits too, which I'm kind of nervous about. The recruiter said there was schools out there but didn't give any examples. Obviously the more well known the school the better chance of the job.)
-Get to continue where I left off (During my first year at college I had a blast, made a lot of friends, and I really hate to see my first year blown like that, as in having to start over somewhere new, new location, meet new people, etc.

Neutral:
-Either direction I go, me and 3 other guys got set up with a house for 1 year that I'm not even going to be living in anymore. Since no matter which happens I'll still be taking the semester off (as in not starting school again until Spring 2009), I still have to find a replacement to live in this house for me. I didn't sign a lease but it's still an obligation for me. I mean, it would be nice to live there when I went back to school (because my dad only pays rent for me while I'm ATTENDING school) but I cannot afford that place living there or not. I'll be at moms house for the next 5-6 months.

Cons:
-Not as much focus in the field/industry? (Considering the business classes at my general university would focus on a much more broad range of topics, I'd have to do a lot more work that's unrelated to the specific field of interest.)
-Money (While the Audio Recording school isn't cheap, the University costs way more. And I'm unfamiliar with how most financial aid works, but since my cum GPA fell below a 2.0, I'm pretty sure most financial aid will turn me down. If I didn't understand the policy correctly, then I believe if your GPA were to fall that low, you had to pay for an entire semester of schooling yourself to show your dedication to school before being able to receive financial aid again. And I do NOT have that kind of money. A semester off is necessary to give me time to think about what to do in this situation, but it's mainly for getting cash together. Looks like I'll need to make at least $6000+ [probably more] in the next 6 months. Which I could make on my current job, but I have other expenses as well, so overtime will be necessary)

Let me see if I got this straight: Astronomy and Sign Language?

Welcome to RO, Memorex.

Please do not double post, it serves no purpose but to bog down the server and anger the natives...

I'm sorry, this section of the forum didn't seem as busy as the others and figured the double post would get faster replys. I'm sorry.

But any input?

And yes, Astronomy and Sign Language. All uni's require a foreign language, and German was the class I failed first semester. I got sick of trying to learn a language I was going to forgot, and Sign Language only met twice a week while every other foreign language met every day. Astronomy was just for one of my required Natural Science credits.

Where are you located?

From me...that was input :)

Looked like Output to me...

bent wrote: Where are you located?

The Midwest. Small town Wisconsin currently... the Audio Recording school in question is Madison Media Institute in Madison, WI. And the university I was/currently am attending is University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee.

i think that you need to do whatever will make you happy

Do what makes you happy...

I thought about going to APRA (The Academy of Production and Recording Arts) In my City, and really, after a friend of mine took the course, I found out really, I wouldn't have been learning anything I didn't know already from a "recording for dummies" book...
No offense, but its just not worth it now an days,
the age of digital recording has plagued the recording industry.

Now that anybody can afford to buy some cheap audio interfaces, a couple of mics and read a book, anyone can become a sound engineer...

In fact... I did just that. Started a band, needed recording, instead of wasting 19,000 dollars to go to collage, I ended up spending probably more than twice that on audio gear and learning as I went.

It's actually turned into quite the hobby for me, I love doing it, but I really couldn't see myself getting a career out of it, unfortunately its the same thing everyone else has been saying "too many studios have been closing down"
I figured if I offered my services it would turn into a decent job I could live off of...

I now manage a private park in my city to pay the bills and buy more gear!

in reality I would have to suggest maybe picking up a book or two and just read up on the subject to see if its for you, there is a lot to recording, its not just about plopping a mic in front of an amp and hitting record... there is some theory behind it (as I have found out!), if you find you really like the idea and understand the fundamentals of recording, then do it as a hobby to see if your any good at it.
I have met guys who haven't had a class of recording who can put out some awesome sounding recordings,
but I have also met guys who have a degree in audio engineering who just can't get a good sound!

honestly do what feels right but defiantly do your research first!

U need to follow your dream. I got into the industry by bugging other engineers to intern for them and learning hands on and it didn't cost a things. I went to the library and books stores and read almost every book that i could find and saved money and bought my own gear and listened to some of the best mixed records and tried to emulate the sound of them. I then went on the get signed to island records as an artist/producer. Its all about taking chances and being passionate about what it is you want.A school can teach you a little tech knowledge but can't teach you to be creative. The creativity comes from you and what you have to offer to the music.

Hi,
The advice I would give will sound odd but here it is - Before you go to SAE you should be in a postion where you do not need SAE.
The point is that spending 19K will not assure you a job. One the secrets to a successful stuidio is the ability to generate business not
ability to engineer, although that is important too! Let me know your thoughts!

spitfire3416, post: 257931 wrote: Okay, so I'm seriously considering what I want to do with my life and I know I want it to be something involved with music. It's the only thing I feel a real passion for and I'm not a good enough musician to make a living so I thought about audio engineering. I've been checking out SAE Institute in NYC. It's only a 30 min train ride from my home and the tuition is $19,000. It would take me a year and half to complete (part time) and when I'm all done I get a diploma. Not a degree a diploma. So my real concern is if I can actually do anything with this education, career wise. Is there anyone here who has attended this school? What does it take to make it in the business? I'm young, naive and know NOTHING about recording but I'm passionate about doing something that I love for the rest of my life and I really think this would be something I would love. I would really appreciate any feedback you guys have here as I'm starting to see my entire life before my eyes and want to make the right decision.

You don't know anything about recording, but you would like to make music (which you aren't good enough yet) If you're willing to spend time learning audio, you could just as well be learning how to make better music,
Making music is way more fun than recording it in my opinion, but I love both as well. Both have a freedom of creativity for you. Have you tried making songs starting with loops? If you aren't a musician that reads and writes music, this seems to be the rave of computer musicians. You'd be more composing music played by other people, but it's still making music and can sound great. Good luck and I hope you just keep pluckin away and follow your heart,
Keep It Trill
LOS

So my real concern is if I can actually do anything with this education, career wise. Is there anyone here who has attended this school? What does it take to make it in the business?

File sharing has killed the music business. The film business is hurting too, as you can read about it on this page that explains it pretty good...
[[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.yourinve…"]Independent Film Production, Distribution, Sales and Marketing[/]="http://www.yourinve…"]Independent Film Production, Distribution, Sales and Marketing[/]
Search on Yahoo for best paying degrees, then get into the oil industry.

Avery sad state of affairs.

Dr_Willie_OBGYN, post: 362046 wrote: File sharing has killed the music business. The film business is hurting too, as you can read about it on this page that explains it pretty good...
[[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.yourinve…"]Independent Film Production, Distribution, Sales and Marketing[/]="http://www.yourinve…"]Independent Film Production, Distribution, Sales and Marketing[/]
Search on Yahoo for best paying degrees, then get into the oil industry.

yup, oil industry, weapons, law and bankruptcy all good money makers.

Follow your dreams and never give up.