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anonymous 9 April 2002

Just received the CRane Song analog dither CD. Per their instructions, I mixed it into a tune I'm mastering (recorded/mixed on Pro Tools LE at 16/44.1 I think - took the CD-R & D/A'd it out of my Tascam CD-RW2000 (24 bit), ran it across my tube A/D at 24/88.2 & into the DAW - which was a huge improvement in itself).

I could not believe what I was hearing! All of a sudden my sound had depth and (just like they said) life & warmth! When I muted the dither track, my "so much better" hi-res track now sounded thin & flat. Unbelieveable. How do they do that? I have found a secret weapon (Ha, Ha, Ha. I am ZATAR!).

One thing I'm not sure of is if I'm supposed to run the dither track through any processing that I'm doing to the audio track or if I'm supposed to just leave it alone & route it to the main bus untouched? Input?

I suppose now somebody is going to tell me that there is even better dithering out there somewhere. :eek:

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anonymous Tue, 04/09/2002 - 11:23

Originally posted by Brad Blackwood:

If you are using it as dither, you'll need to add it in at the last step before truncation.

How do I determine exactly at what point that is?

Also, what is the difference between using it as dither or as tone control? Doesn't it do both at the same time?

Thanks for the input.

anonymous Tue, 04/09/2002 - 12:43

Brad could do a much better job explaining it than I could, but here's what I know.

Dither is, in very simplified terms, adding noise to the program material that you are working on. It is a specialized noise that, I believe, spans a much wider freq. spectrum than the audible range. It is supposed to add back into the digital realm all the freqs., harmonics, overtones, etc. that are missing in digital audio in order to give it back some warmth & life. Exactly how it does it is NOT my area of expertise. (Help!, Brad.)

Anyway, per the instructions on the CS CD, you load this dithering noise into your DAW - I saved it as its own file so I could recall & use it anytime - add it to your song as its own stereo track and mix it in with the rest of your program material at -25 dB.

You will be astounded at the results! The CD says that you should hear added fullness & warmth in the bottom end, which you do. But I also noticed that individual instruments were popping out of the mix after adding the dither. It created some space behind the mix - made it more transparent & 3 dimensional, not flat like digital is. IMO, it is more than well worth the $30 investment.

I assume that it is the same type of dithering that is incorporated into the CS outboard gear.

Brad, please correct & instruct me as necessary on this.

Mike Simmons Tue, 04/09/2002 - 14:16

Brad, could you comment please on the tone control vs. dither applications here? Is this used in conjunction with or instead of the dither on the 2-bus? (like pow-r dither)

On-Track (aka ZATAR!!!), I'd ask you to post a before and after but for $30 I probably should just give it a try.

Interesting stuff... is this new or are people getting similar results with other dithering software?

:w: Thanks!

anonymous Tue, 04/09/2002 - 16:26

If you have it on your dig 2-bus output and are wordlength reducing from 24-16, it will act as dither.

In a DAW situation, if you, for example, process your audio tracks on say Bus A & route that bus to the Master Bus while assigning the dither noise tracks directly to the Master Bus, is that the same as having the dither at the end of the chain? As far as I can tell, that's the only way to get the dither tracks as close as possible to the last step. This "project" would then be rendered down to a stereo file at 44.1/16 to be put to CD. Any ideas?

As far as the before/after post goes, I would be glad to do it except that I have no web site :( to post it on. Is there a place to upload a file to?

anonymous Tue, 04/09/2002 - 21:02

You load it into your EDL (at 16 bit) and lower the level by 25 db for standard 16 bit dither - can't see why you couldn't lower it 73 db to dither to 24 from whatever... (6db/bit - you can do the math and figure it out for any level...

So the point is....the lower the target bit depth, the more noise you use?

Brad, did you see my question about the busing & where to introduce the dithering?

I know you're busy.....

anonymous Wed, 04/10/2002 - 07:10

Originally posted by Brad Blackwood:
And for those of us who are just tuning in, the Crane Song dither available on the disc is the same dither used in the HEDD-192 and the Spider...

Not that I really know what I'm talking about, but.....

.....what noise shape would that be?

BTW- what do you know about the CS STC-8?

anonymous Wed, 04/10/2002 - 08:49

I have an STC-8M (mastering version, all controls are switches) that I've used for about 4 years now. For mastering, I have no reason to have any other compressor in my rack...

That's what I wanted to know. Must be a good unit then...better be for the price tag!

Where do you insert it in your chain? (or is that a secret?)

anonymous Thu, 04/11/2002 - 04:29

Without any knowledge about this CD in particular I would guess that the idea behind it is that it is REALLY hard to make good quality noise digitally. Anything made on the computer is necessarily very predictable - hard to believe for Windows users perhaps :) - and therefore nothing (basically) a computer can produce can be called noise. So they have redorded some nice thermal noise, and applied some high quality EQ to it. If it wasn't for the EQ you could have done it yourself by cranking your worst preamp really high! :)

Mike Simmons Thu, 04/11/2002 - 06:25

Brad, I'd be curious to know how you use dither. From your posts it seems like you choose one in the same way I might chose a mic or compressor. How are different dithers "different"? And why do you choose one over another? If this is a "buy the book" question just say so.

I'll be posting Jeff's Cranesong dither result samples at my website soon and I'll let you know when they're up.

anonymous Sun, 04/21/2002 - 23:44

Noise shaping is essentially taking flat dither noise (for this example, say it's flat from 20-20k) and applying 'shaping', such as boosting the level at the highest frequencies so the midband isn't affected. UV22 is based on using noiseshaping that peaks at close to Nyquist fs at 44.1 (22khz). The noise reaches the level necessary to dither at that level and is relatively low below that...

QB]

Noise shaping is adding dither at higher frequencies, that are less audible to the human ear. Explain how the CS cd is going to do that, when you record it into a two track mix. Won't the dither be applied to all freq'a that are present in the mix?

anonymous Wed, 04/24/2002 - 08:26

Hi,
Sorry if this is a dumb question, but how would this dither be used
on a two track editor, such as Peak on the Mac?
I don't have a multi-track DAW, so I take a CD from my Masterlink and import the track to Peak.
How could I add the CS dither once the track is in Peak, as Peak's two tracks are used for the master?

Thanx,
Carmen
:w:

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