BUZAIN,

I am not a mastering engineer...... but i don't picture it as being all that easy to explain......

Picture that i could take the same piece of music..... mix it differently 10 times..... send the 10 mixes off to a ME - and, depending on the genre, the levels, the effects i added (or didn't add) and hundreds of different contributing factors - the ME would have to deal with each mix in a completely different manner.

And that is just for one song - one genre of music..... now picture this for all of the different songs out there - for the hundreds of different styles of music - all of which require a different presentation...

(By the way - you pros out there - if i'm picturing this - or presenting this "wrong" please PLEASE correct me).

I have read through these threads as well, and the more i do - the more i understand (possible incorrectly i will have to admit) the challenges of the ME - the more i realize how difficult - maybe even impossible it would be - on a strictly abstract basis - for someone to teach me through this forum - "how to do it".

If you envision the mix as if it were a inked sketch....... and the ME as the person who is now going to "colour the picture" - you can begin to see the challenge of what it is your asking.

Having never seen the picture - how do they go about describing to you how to hold your brush - which brush you use - what colours you paint - where the shade lines should be.... etc.

I give the pro's here a lot of credit for what they share with the readers..... and reality is - if you want a truly professional product - you have it mastered........ if it were as easy as an explanation or 2 - then the recording engineers would just master themselves... and there wouldn't be a need for this specialized field in the industry.

Happy Hunting

Rod

Originally posted by BUZAIN:
....people here do not want to share their knowledge with others...
....not all people can afford a professional.
....by sharing few tips with others they will not loose their jobs.

:) Buz, how big is your recording and audio production related book library? Mine is at least 5 full shelves. I have some in storage, and stacked by my night table. I even have video tape demo's from many engineers, or performers. I have audio demo's on cassette, and CD.
My biggest source of information is the net. Usenet (google archives) for example, has over half a million separate topics on recording alone.

There are some things you just can't learn from reading. For mastering, it takes thousands of hours of listening on a calibrated system with the finest of, often custom, speakers and gear in a room designed to exacting specifications.

I found a home here at RO because people do share.

You can afford a mastering engineer, and someday you will understand why. If you read here you will see how you can minimize the cost. In some case in the future you will realize you can't afford NOT to use a mastering engineer.

These fine professionals that moderate the mastering forum have shared their knowledge everyday, and are not in the least concerned about loosing their jobs.

As with any specialist, the variables are broad. There are no simple settings to use, no rule of thumb procedures, no simple answer to turn out pro master mixes, and CD's. If that were the case it would be in a black box called "The Master Machine".

There are mastering books, but ALL the fundamentals have to be clearly understood to reap the results. That, and more listening under ideal conditions than most people do in a lifetime.

--Rick

Originally posted by BUZAIN:
Mastering engineers should realize that by sharing few tips with others they will not loose their jobs.

Could you clarify on this a little? I figure that statement was along the lines of "people will understand what mastering (or a mastering engineer) can do for a mix if he shows he's knowledgable about his suit". (forgive me if I'm wrong)

Like Rod said, it's hard to explain "what to do" if you don't have "what to do it on" in plain sight... I mean, you could always throw out general tips like "Get a good frequency balance" or "Balance between dynamics and good volume", but it's impossible to explain exactly *how* to achieve that without a specific material as an example.

That being said, the mastering engineers around here have always offered to do free demos for the folks who come by... If ever in doubt of what mastering can do, just get in contact with one of them.

Originally posted by BUZAIN:

Sometimes because of budget limitations not all people can afford a professional.

Mastering engineers should realize that by sharing few tips with others they will not loose their jobs.

Mastering is an art that requires GREAT EARS, special skills, equpment and rooms. Trying to teach just anyone how to master in even the best production studios, is often akin to trying to teach a blind person how to drive a big semi truck in a Ford Fiesta..

With that in mind, here's the first thing you need to do..go get a hearing test.. Make sure your hearing is perfect, with no loss.. the ability to hear at extremly high frequencies is a must.. if you don't hear anything above 20K, forget about it. Next, get a job in a "real" studio and train your "golden" ears for about ten years. Get a great grounding on music (you will need to familiarize your self with all genres), electronics, audio theory and studio design.

Next thing you need to do is get about a million dollars or more, design and build as close to as possible, a "perfect" room and fill it up with ultra esoteric and expensive equalizers, compressors, DAW editing systems and a calibrated monitor system. Actually, I am not sure if a million dollars will be enough so you will probably need a good line of credit. After you have done that, come back and we will take you to the next step.. mmmm kay?

Buzain,
I think if you are new to this site, you should hang around for a little longer. This is a place full of free information and the people here are happy to help when they can, and share there knowledge.
:)

Perhaps, little grasshopper, it might be more useful if you revealed what it is that you want to know.....

Then, this time with focus, the secrets of the profession will be made known to you.

If they can.....

For there are some secrets that just can't be taught.

But I'm not tellin'.....

:D

Kiddin'

Best-

Kev.

Hey folk, this place is pretty nice. It is an it will be my home forum.

Guys here have they dayjobs so maybe one or two days later you shall be able to have some answers to your doubts.
Research and post your doubts here.

I used to subscribe to Mix, Eq, EM and some cool brazilian magazines and I have to admit, as Rick kindly posted, the web is much more dynamic and provides us much more updated info.
:)

Hey Guys,

I hope you all realize that I did not intend to start a controversy. Some of you have answered me sympathetically and lovingly, while others have called me a grassoper(no offense taken). I do appreciate the time and the trouble taken.

I do understand and recognize the importance of a professional mastering engineer and do not in any way minimize that. The thing I found more disapointing here has been that "almost" whenever someone has asked a question about few tips about mastering, the answer has been "go to the mastering house."

I have presumed that this forum is not just for professional Mstering engineers. Maybe it is, then I am wrong and please forgive me(sincerely). I have presumed that this place is for music lovers, for both experienced and starters to share and interact.

Everyone knows that just by reading alone one cannot be a professional Mastering Engineer. Still some of us want to learn some tips and guidelines and will appreciate being encouraged and nurtured than being told off and told to go to a Mastering house.

If all I needed was a Mastering house alone,then there is no need to come here and take part in these forums. But I need more than just a Mastering house. I need to interact with others too(those who know and those who are learning)and learn from them, and maybe share my own small experiences.

Peace,

BUZAIN,

I hope you realize that everything that has been said here was meant to enlighten you rather than insult you - even the "grasshopper" statement (which is a reference to an old tv show with David Carridine about the Shoulin Monks training kung-fu - which was a term of endearment from them) was meant in kindness......

Hang around and you will probably pick up more by osmosis than you realize.......

Any way you look at it - you are more than welcome.

Rod

Originally posted by BUZAIN
I do understand and recognize the importance of a professional mastering engineer and do not in any way minimize that. The thing I found more disapointing here has been that "almost" whenever someone has asked a question about few tips about mastering, the answer has been "go to the mastering house."

This is because mastering is the last chance to "catch" things that may be deficient in your recordings. This is best served by fresh ears and a different room. When the same ears are employed in the same room the chances that the same mistakes will be repeated are increased. Add to the mix that by most accounts a ME has better gear and rooms and will be capable of making more precise adjustments and the fact that as an unattached person to the project they have fewer biases to bring to the table, the decision not to use a Mastering House and engineer is usually the biggest mistake anyone can commit. I have been doing audio for 30 years plus and I have never mastered my own records.. I could if I wanted to but I see the need to bring a fresh outlook and experiences into the "mix" so to speak. So while it may sound harsh, calloused or even cavalier to say "Take it to a mastering house", it really is the best advice we can give... Kurt

Howdy yall,

BUZAIN: I was a total and complete beginner myself when I came across this forum (now I am merely a total beginner). I've been reading threads just about daily, and I have even dared to post a topic or two. I gotta tell ya, what Rod says holds a bunch of truth, there is so much that I have absorbed without even knowing...

At first I also had the feeling that the pros were only out here to promote their business, but I have found out that they are really willing to help. Maybe you should hang around the small steps forum a while, you'll really learn a bunch. (Maybe you'll come across a particular thread on the difference between mixing and mastering.... :) whoever had the guts to ask that question...)

I don't know how much of a beginner you are, but I really had an incredibly steep learning curve the last weeks. I also found out that it is all about listening listening listening and listening. Do it again, do it again, do it again.

All others: A big yee haw to recording.org!

Regards, Rob

BUZ:
Might not be exactly what you're looking for, but the critique forum has some excellent example material, and the comments are more often than not dead-on advice for general improvements of the mixes.

Sorry you feel this way about the forum. I feel that the forum has taken on more of a positive atmosphere for real questions. If you have a specific question to a specific problem in the mastering arena, you will probably get an answer here. If your asking how to become a world class mastering engineer in one paragraph, you won't get an answer. This will go for any industry. There are no secrets we are trying to hide. Some people come here to learn the secrets of the pros and come away disapointed. Some come here as practicing ME's and learn something. The only thing I get out of moderating is that I learn something also. So if I'm learning something here then you should be able to too.

I would like to know what posts you are referring to. I don't understand how you can comment that the Pro mastering engineer moderators on this site (including myself) don't give out tips on mastering.

I get the impression that some newer engineers think that there are a set of mastering "switches" the get and presto! the song is mastered. Many times questions like how much compression should I use can't be answered in this environment unless we are standing next to you while you mix and hear what is coming out of the speakers.

Whenever there are relevant mastering questions they are addressed usually by at least 2 of us. I would like to thank the other moderators for donating there time and experience to this forum.

I have been sitting back & watching this thread because I am not sure if I can contribute anything more than Joe & Michael & Rod have already said.

What we do in mastering has been called a hidden art because it should be invisible. A well mastered project is one that gets the emotion of the music across to the listener without being obscured. What we do is to make more perfect a "finished" mix. We all have different tools; we all have different ears. We all seek the same goals. It's just very difficult to quantify. There is no one right answer.

[ August 18, 2003, 01:55 PM: Message edited by: Don Grossinger ]

I hope the pro and advanced engineers here do not feel offended by my comment. As I stated in my first mail, I sat down for hours and went through virtually all the threads from the very beginning. And in most occasions when one asked a question about mastering they were told to go to a mastering house. It is that I found frustrating since I came here to interact with those who have started the art before me.

But I know that some reasons have been explained to me in details through this thread and I understand, at least in part.

Maybe the main problem has been with the questions. Maybe those of us asking questions should ask more relevant and appropriate questions. So,　I have decided to concentrate on coming up witth questions which I hope are relevat and intelligent which can be answered without difficulty.

Once again all my love and respect for the moderators and everyone here. It's great to feel part of the family even though, I'm the new born here. :h:

Welcome BUZAIN,

As a session engineer I have come to appreciate the MEs out there more and more as the years go by. It is a truly specilized and intricate art form, and these people work just as hard as any virtuoso instrumentalist who spends hours every day mastering their instruments. I have had the privilige to sit in on mastering sessions of some truly talented people. There is no way I could ever be a mastering engineer. However, a lot of the MEs I know could not run a nice, tight, creative, productive recording session the way I do.

We all have our talents. But, as in any profession, it takes dedication and practice. I became a great keyboard player through the knowledge and encouragement of some wonderful teachers and coaches. I am a very good (and always improving) engineer because the engineers at the sessions I played were willing to share their knowledge, just as I have always been willing to share mine.

Trying to teach mastering by the written word is like trying to describe a sunset to a man blind since birth. When you have the opportunity to hear several projects before and after mastering, to really hear the differences, then you can "talk" about how it was done. Over the past few years there have been some of those "mastering in a box"plug-ins etc., and they do work, but they only correct the grossest errors common to most amatuer recordists. There is nothing like a great ME.

Stick around, you will get more out of this site than you will ever believe. If nothing else, it is one of the few sites where you can have an intelligent argument and not a flame war.

Peace,

Uncle Bob

:p:

Just a few thoughts here.

I hang out on a lot of forums and in my opinion this is one of the most technical sources of information available on the internet. Great people, low attitude and somewhat newbie free, not that this is a bad thing, just occassionally mind numbing.

Regarding mastering, and the lack of sharing information, it reminds me of the two age old questions. What is the best mic for recording vocals? What is the best preamp? The answer is, it depends on what you are trying to achieve.

Mastering is EQ, volume and compression, applied for a certain effect. If you want specific answers you gotta ask specific questions.

Kurt Foster said,

Make sure your hearing is perfect, with no loss.. the ability to hear at extremly high frequencies is a must.. if you don't hear anything above 20K, forget about it.

I'm not sure if you were being sarcastic to make a point, or genuinely serious. Did you really mean that only people who can hear frequencies of 20,000 Hz or higher can/should consider being a mastering engineer? Great ears are one thing, but I would think one would have to lead a virtually acoustically celibate life in order to finally be in a position to use one's "golden ears" for the purpose of mastering, especially in today's sonic climate.
When does technology become the determining factor? Wouldn't the ability to hear extremely subtle differences in A/B comparisons take over after about 15 kHz? (I can't hear the difference, can you hear the difference....)

I was under the impression that if you couldn't hear anything above 20kHz, you were normal. correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the 20Hz-20kHz standard established by Bell Labs and the U.S. military by testing strapping young men with absolutely perfect hearing during an era that, compared to today's, was "all quiet on the western front?"

Just how many super-humans are out there mastering our music? :D :c:

What a thrill listening to all of your feedback here. You all covered this topic so well, I'm proud of our place.

If I could add... In general for anyone reading this thread... being very specific really helps the entire process. The moment a Topic is started the Subject (Title) should be clear and reflect the message contents. It helps everyone interested in a specific topic find it and, it also helps the RO search engine locate questions much better. It makes a better tuned board.

At times, especially when I'm excited, have found it challenging to write things from the readers point of view. The preview button really helps a lot of us see things better. I admire the people that say things so well.

Cheers!

Originally posted by Daniel Herridge:
I'm not sure if you were being sarcastic to make a point, or genuinely serious. Did you really mean that only people who can hear frequencies of 20,000 Hz or higher can/should consider being a mastering engineer? .........

Just how many super-humans are out there mastering our music? :D :c:

Daniel,
I was being a little tongue and cheek, but just a little. M.E.'s typically have much better hearing "than the average bear" and there are a lot of people that can hear way above 20K.. I can't but then, I'm not an M.E. The point I was trying to make is there is so much more to being a mastering engineer than just getting a Waves Bundle and going at it.. Kurt

[ August 19, 2003, 06:00 PM: Message edited by: Kurt Foster ]

Some of these responses absolutley amaze me. In answering Buzain's question you have infact reenforced his position. "Mastering" ANYTHING take years of "practice", that we know. But some of you act as though you have some special gift that you were born with and didn't start somewhere! If there wasn't somebody to show you the ropes then you wouldn't be doing what you do. Remember, there is always somebody that can do it better,
so who really is a "master" after all???
I too belived that this site was to help others achive better results in what they do. While there are many that do provide usefull feedback there are those that should have the little quote at the bottom of their post say "Mastering? Get a Pro to do it!!!!"

I'll stick by mine

Originally posted by Paul Preamble:
But some of you act as though you have some special gift that you were born with and didn't start somewhere!

Paul, actually i do believe that - the born with a gift part anyway........

Some people - no matter how hard they may try - could never become a concert pianist - or a lead guitarist - or a mastering engineer.

We all have gifts we're born with...... and yes - we do begin somewhere - but no matter who the teacher - if you do not have the gift - you will never become a master.

I am not a ME - not even a RE - I am a construction engineer - that is my gift......

I re-read this entire thread - and with the exception of Kurt's tongue in cheek remark - (and he isn't an ME either) did not see anything suggesting what you are referring to as being said BY THE MASTERING ENGINEERS themselves........

What i heard (read actually) was that questions have to be specific, that there is no answer to the question - "what do i have to do to master music?" (and there really isn't an answer to that) and i also heard these fine people suggest that he hang around and be a part of this - learn what he can along the way........ and think of some specifics he may want answers to.......

I heard suggestions that he buy reading materials, get involved in the critique forum, and even heard some encouraging things from other RO members who say they have learned here.

But the best thing i heard (once again really read) came from the person who began the thread.... his statement ... awww heck - let me post it again - you must have missed it:

But I know that some reasons have been explained to me in details through this thread and I understand, at least in part.

Maybe the main problem has been with the questions. Maybe those of us asking questions should ask more relevant and appropriate questions. So,　I have decided to concentrate on coming up with questions which I hope are relevant and intelligent which can be answered without difficulty.

Once again all my love and respect for the moderators and everyone here. It's great to feel part of the family even though, I'm the new born here.

Maybe you need to read the last paragraph a couple of times - let it sink in....

I have a question for you,

When the person who begins a thread like this expresses his understanding and happiness..... why do you feel the need to denegrate any of the other people who posted?

Sincerely,

Rod

[ August 20, 2003, 12:57 PM: Message edited by: Rod Gervais ]

First off I have no need to "denegrate" anyone. Because my reply might have had a very slight negativity to it I refrained from mentioning names. I believe if those that act like this don't know who they are then they will never know. I only entered the thread because I believe that I had something to contribute, and I have felt the exact same way on many occasions. I don't have the details of what these other guys do and whether or not they are indeed MEs or not.

I've seen people that are able to craft a piece of fine furniture out of wood. I also know guys that can barely nail in a stud. But I would bet if the former guy was working on your crew you would be the first to help the guy out - To teach him the skills that either you've worked very hard to learn, or the skills that just came to you naturally. Either way you'd work to help this guy hone his skills and become better.
I think that's all people are asking. I don't believe that I or the guy that started this thread will EVER become MEs. But I do believe that when you lose the desire to learn that your life is pretty much over. And there are some of US that think the same way about teaching.
Which catagory do you fall into?

Paul,

The day i stop learning - I die. I also teach.

But i stand steadfast that the people here help, the questions are hard to formulate in such a manner that the teaching is anything less than difficult at best........ and that although you are correct - and i would help that man (or any man for that matter) - it would be very VERY difficult for me to "teach you" how to do brain surgery here......... although i could teach you to understand it utilizes a cutting implement.

Sincerely,

Rod

[ August 20, 2003, 07:08 PM: Message edited by: Rod Gervais ]

Ummm, so what was the question again? Lets get off the personal stuff and back to mastering questions. If we can help, we will.

I'll throw in a Mastering Question - having conducted sessions for a while in PT, I'm considering a software upgrade and I'm wondering if many ME's use the Waves bundles...any thoughts on software?

Originally posted by Michael Fossenkemper:
Ummm, so what was the question again? Lets get off the personal stuff and back to mastering questions. If we can help, we will.

That's just it. Those who complain are those who don't bother to ask a specific question with enough information to get an intelligent answer back that they may use or learn from. You can't form an effective answer from a question like, "My stuff dosen't sound like the stuff I hear on the radio or like the last CD I bought. How do I make my stuff sound pro?"

If you have no clue what is involved in mastering and/or what to do get a pro sound then you need to go do some homework so that you have the most basic knowledge to be able to ask good questions. Don't be lazy and expect that few hours reading a newsgroup or asking a couple of half-assed questions is going to give you a quick and easy fix. Take this subject serious like you would for any skilled trade that you want to learn and know more about. Like any skill, you have to pay your dues in getting educated, gaining experience and that takes as much effort as it does time.

"If you have no clue what is involved in mastering and/or what to do get a pro sound then you need to go do some homework so that you have the most basic knowledge to be able to ask good questions. Don't be lazy and expect that few hours reading a newsgroup or asking a couple of half-assed questions is going to give you a quick and easy fix. Take this subject serious like you would for any skilled trade that you want to learn and know more about. Like any skill, you have to pay your dues in getting educated, gaining experience and that takes as much effort as it does time."

Well Said

I just want to visit the "mastering Forum" for a while cause I'm bored over at the "mixing and all that forum".... :cool:

Then this topic shows up and I gotta inject just a little here.I AM NOT A M.E. I'm a pretty good mixer and can track stuff as well as the equipment,room,and musicians will allow....

Several years ago, I was doing a project for some young enterprising rockers.The sessions all went well.Sounds got captured that from time to time would lift the room as we listened back.You know what I mean...We always called it 'Jumpin off da Tape'...anyway...my part is done...they have a two-track masters set."They" go home and take it to a friend who claims to be able to master off cassettes and such(pre cd)...the results sound like shite...

They come back to me eyes ablaze..."Whats wrong with yer mix!!!!"....I ask, where did you have it mastered? Uhhh....XXXXX did it in his studio'.....So I take my own money and time and take it to a MASTERING HOUSE and do one song...$200....over and done...Print to cassette, they hear it......comment...."oh"...

Mastering Engineers are my friends!

Originally posted by Kurt.

M.E.'s typically have much better hearing "than the average bear"

I would wholeheartedly agree that not just anyone can be a M.E. but I think the above statement is an assumption. What constitutes better? If you could hear above 20K, wouldn't all those high frequency whizzing noises from computers, monitors and studio lights drive you nuts? That doesn't sound like better to me!!!

Only joking really but...

Would it be more accurate to say that M.E's are better listeners?

Or more appropriately have a listening more akin to a mastering environment as opposed to a recording/tracking & mixing one?

Do recording/mix engineers have better ----? (fill in the blank).

I for one know that even if my listening/hearing was good enough I don't have the patience(another factor maybe?) to be a mastering engineer, so I say hat's off to all the top M.E's out there who do (Jesus I wouldn't want to listen to my songs another hundred times over & over again. I did that already when mixing now I've heard enough!)....Thank you Very much.
:cool:

recording/mix engineers have better ----? (fill in the blank).

Parties !!!!

:c:

Recording/mix engineers have betterplug-ins
:p:

Well, you know, they are developing new things called PLUG-OUTS... much like the bellybutton phenomenon, the advantages range from less accumulated fuzz to the ability to attract more ladies.

Sorry to disappoint.

Mastering Engineers doesn't have better ears than everybody else :D

Well, if any single group has better ears, I'd say the Elves do.

:h: sexay pointed ears.

That's right falkon :D

Overall the Elves are just sexy people ;)

Those pointy ears really do it for me...

If Liv Tyler was my lady I'd ask her to keep them on permanently..........

ooooh feeling tingly now just thinkin' about it.....

Yeah I know, call me sick!

Originally posted by Michael Fossenkemper:
Ummm, so what was the question again? Lets get off the personal stuff and back to mastering questions. If we can help, we will.

Yep off the personal stuff is a good Idea.

IMO when questions are asked here it helps to remember that the Mod's are busy making money, working. And that despite the frustration we might feel after asking, despite the excitement we feel in regards to the importance of our questions, We need to let the process of answering take its due time.

In other words remember this is a free service.

On the other hand, It does seem that the Mods can be a little less than keen to answer questions directly. Now I understand that a direct answer is sometimes innapropriate as the nature of audio comes down to many many factors. But to see so many questions dealt with in a dismissive nature is certainly frustrating whether lurking or not.

Perhaps the MODS management duties might extend to amassing an FAQ specific to answering and or shortcutting the (no doubt) endless repetition of the same questions?

your thoughts?

I don't think we need to limit the scope of the forum, just be as specific as possible and that will help.