kmetal, post: 452570, member: 37533 wrote:

We are in the buisness of illusion and a lot of famous 'live' albums were mostly overdubbed.

You bet they were. ;)
There have been "live" albums where the crowd and applause was "borrowed" from another "live" album, which was borrowed from a "live " album before that, and most, if not all, had plenty of studio overdubs involved in post production after the shows. ;)

CherylJosie, post: 452664, member: 50446 wrote: True to form, FecEx seems to be pretending to attempt delivery of my microph0nes to my apartment.

Every time they need a signature it seems they let the package ride around on the truck for a week and then tell me to come get it.

Several times I asked them to please attempt delivery because I am usually home.

FedEx has to be the worst delivery service I have ever had to deal with.

You've got to put "Driver Release Ok" on the delivery notes, or secondary adress line. You may also be able to leave a signed sticky note on the door.

My cousin is a former fed ex driver and he does the driver release ok, so he doesn't get bothered while he's working in his home studio.

The package is worth $600 and is not insured against theft. I need to sign for it in person, and am available to do that, but the driver has to actually attempt to deliver it. This driver will not even put a sticky note on the door or call, he just ignores my packages.

I live in a gated community and I suspect he just does not want the delay of having to be buzzed in. This seems to be a structural thing with FedEx. USPS and UPS have no such issues delivering to me.

I am going to pick it up tonight from their branch office as I always do. FedEx... FAH-dEx.

I have determined that the ProFX16v2 has four subgroup output jacks and subroups 1-2 or 3-4 can be used either mono or as stereo pairs in the main mix too depending on which selector switches are active at their outputs. Subgroups 1/3 are driven off input fade left, 2/4 are driven off input fade right, but if any of subgroups 1-4 are selected on both their left and right main out switches they behave as mono return to the main mix rather than stereo.

So this means I can create two separate stereo vocal submixes, one for the mains mix and one for the recording. It looks like I am in better shape on this multichannel recording than I thought, and I should be able to get a dedicated vocal stereo mix into the Zoom R24 right off the board without having to do too much additional setup.

So with the 6 Behringers and the stereo subgroup vocal mix I should be able to record the entire band multichannel on 8 tracks. I can mic the bass, guitar, and keyboard directly off their amps, I can mic the drums in stereo from overhead or waist height (suggestions?), and I can mic the room on the remaining Behringer from somewhere in the audience.

I will need some way of mounting these microphones. I saw some hooks that sit under an amp head and hold the mic below, in front of the speaker cab. There is not much room on stage so I am reluctant to set mic stands up on the floor.

Fortunately the Behringers come with shock mounts. They are going to need them.

The only thing I have been unable to determine is if those subgroup outputs are TS or TRS jacks. All the other jacks specify the type in the manual but they seem to have forgotten to specify for these particular outputs. I guess I can tell by partially inserting a plug.

Can balanced output jacks be safely shorted to unbalanced with a TS plug? or is that something that is just not done?

CherylJosie, post: 452727, member: 50446 wrote: I can mic the drums in stereo from overhead or waist height (suggestions?), and I can mic the room on the remaining Behringer from somewhere in the audience.

If you've got the kick mic'd than stereo OH is cool, with the mics close to the drums as practical, pointing at the snare. Otherwise I'd do mono OH and Kick. I'd also probably to stereo room/audience mics with a nice wide spread, rather than stereo OH, if I couldn't do both.

I've used Mono OH every time I've done a live gig, and I've done a couple hundred. Most PAs run in Mono, and the imaging you'll get from a loud stage isn't going to be fantastic. Plus mono will ease phase issue, and the kick and snare are panned center almost always anyway. If you want some imaging layer some samples into the toms in mixing, and that'll work fine.

The audience with a nice wide image is to me much more valuable, and especially in surround.

CherylJosie, post: 452727, member: 50446 wrote: Can balanced output jacks be safely shorted to unbalanced with a TS plug? or is that something that is just not done?

Yes. Try to keep the cables runs short, ideally under ten ft, since unbalanced are more prone to interference.

The Hummers played The Pioneer last night and I recorded them with the Zoom R24 and the Behringer mulit-pole condensers (B2 Pro).

Last night I used XY cardioid low and right in front of the stage between the monitors to pick up the instruments.

I put a-b figure 8 in the back fifth of the room with nulls aimed at the side walls that were very close, and front lobe aimed at the l/r mains respectively.

I set the 10dB attenuation on since The Hummers play loud, but I left the bass cut disabled.

I ran balanced line from the vocal subgroup into the recorder and it worked OK.

I had some minimal reverse stereo on the vocals to address feedback through the mains, so the stereo image of the vocalists is backwards, but it is minimal stereo anyway and barely discernable.

The submix was dry so I had to add some reverb to the vocals in post-processing. I used Audacity to mix it all down and I used the internal reverb algorithm on a copy of the dry submixed vocals to create a set of wet tracks that I added in proportionately.

It actually sounds OK despite the cheap mics. I am pleased with the result, though unsure if I will keep using this method. I am thinking about how to get the reverb mix into the recorder also but it seems that is maybe impossible unless I take it off the monitors or the mains directly. The monitors probably have an unbalanced mix since I am not paying so much attention to it, and the mains have some kick in them.

This is tougher than I figured. Unfortunately, while distracted with a new recording method, I was not on target with cancelling the feedback and one of the vocalists was not feeling well so the recording captured a very flawed performance all around with great fidelity. Even so, the harmonies were better overall. They have been working on it but still straining on the higher pitches and occasionally drifting. It seems that vocals are always the hardest part of a performance.

YouTube needs me to convert my audio into AV before I can post it. I will update the thread once I have the mix posted online.

I am doing another show tonight at the same venue with East Crescent so I get another shot at this method immediately. I guess that is a good thing, but I am tired from last night. I hope I can keep up. Running a DL1608 may be more flexible than a ProFX16v2, but it is a lot more challenging also and I am still new at all this stuff.

Here is the mic array that I ended up using:

http://www.shure.com/americas/products/accessories/microphones/microphone-cases-adapters/a27m

I bought 3 of them for my surround sound experiment. These are built like a tank and have no trouble at all locking down the heavy large diaphragm mics. The reviews on Amazon are justifiably glowing.

I got them for $68 each with Prime membership instead of $100 retail.

I also bought two of these to add to the flexibility of the array:

http://www.shure.eu/products/accessories/a26x

Plus I bought two of each of these also (one of each was included with the My800 piece of trash):

https://on-stage.com/products/view/10501/121420
https://on-stage.com/products/view/10486

Then I also ordered two of these:

https://on-stage.com/products/view/12647/125727

I am fairly confident that I can build just about any of the smaller standard microphone arrays with these components. I will be looking into adding a camera mount adapter eventually once I get the surround array going.

Photos from the gig: (sorry th epics are dark but you can sort of make out the microphone positioning)

I think I'd use those mics at the back of the room to capture audience, placed under the mains and set to cardioid or supercardioid. High passing them would take out some of the bleed from the nearby speakers, given that you'd place the mics off axis.

I often find it useful to ride the audience mics in post.

bouldersound, post: 452808, member: 38959 wrote: I think I'd use those mics at the back of the room to capture audience, placed under the mains and set to cardioid or supercardioid. High passing them would take out some of the bleed from the nearby speakers, given that you'd place the mics off axis.

I often find it useful to ride the audience mics in post.

"placed under the mains"? You mean cardioid at the front of the stage aimed rearward?

The Behringers have a wide low frequency cardioid response pattern. It would need to be in front of the mains aimed forward. Under/beside them will still bleed lots, and figure 8 will capture the reflection off the wall behind the stage.

I suppose I can try it.

I think maybe if I can borrow enough stands and wires I can experiment with all six Behringers at once. Currently I am limited to about four.

I really like the ambient content of those mics in the rear. I would probably keep the existing four and add another set of figure 8 out front of the mains aimed forward, if I can find a place to put them that is not in the middle of the dance floor.

I have to think this over. It is much more complicated than just building a surround array and setting it in the middle of the dance floor...

In the meantime, I captured some awesome performances last night:

I did not have time to set up a good mix last night for the Zoom. I did have a stereo aux, but the recorder was right in front of the tall stack to the right and the subwoofer was pointed right at me while I was trying to monitor with the headphones. I can barely hear the recorder even with all the gains pinned and the phones blasting distortion into my ears because the mix is so loud in the room from right in front of the stack it walks all over the phones.

I put dry vocal mics through the aux again so it is just like it was for The Hummers the night before. I really missed out on an opportunity to set up a good recording mix, but by the time I got everything connected and working I was already exhausted and in serious pain, plus I had to ride a mix that was prone to feedback for some reason again. That makes two nights in a row I had problems with feedback while trying to set up an aux mix for recording.

I probably should have used all four available auxes so I could send the vocals, effects, keyboards, and guitars on separate channels. I had two spare inputs to the board, but I was short two balanced cables to route the signals.

Or maybe I should have captured the entire mains mix post-fader? At least that would safeguard the recording from goofs in the aux mix. Not sure if that is even possible with the DL1608 but I suppose I could have just daisy-chained off the... main and sub from the stack right at the recorder? It was mono mix last night so that would have worked fine and I could have used a set of XLR that we had plenty of. Hindsight...

The Zoom has only two channels without phantom power. That is a problem for capturing more than one stereo mix from the board. Yikes. Maybe it is better that I did not try that.

Charlie is so much more facile on the user interface. He knows his mixer and he is in better condition. I am really feeling my age when trying to run the thing. After setting up the mics two nights in a row I had difficulty just staying in the game. I asked Charlie to handle the mix for Grooview (first vid in that playlist but the one I linked to was the second because the list was out of order so make sure you play off YouTube site and back up one vid to see Grooview).

I am thinking that now I really, really need that stereo wireless link for a set of headphones. Then I can go outside and set up the aux mix with good isolation using the iPad, plus I can monitor the board remotely from there and adjust the EQ and effects on solo. If I just add everything in to the aux mix post-fader with the gains set to 0dB, or duplicate the attenuator settings from the mains mix that cannot be done post-fader, that should get me most of the way there. I just need to remember to do it during the setup.

The truth is I am just too slow at this stuff and having to learn it all in a trial by fire too.

I wonder if there is a really heavily padded set of isolation headphones for live mixing?

This illustrates why I had a concern about doing multichannel recording. I am really struggling through these gigs.

Well I suppose I have to go figure out how to turn those two audio recordings for the past two nights into videos and post them.

Ear protectors plus good IEMs might give you enough isolation.

Maybe now you see what I've been saying about keeping things simple. Unless I'm getting paid to record without having to also mix, I just capture the board feed as it's being sent to the mains plus one stereo pair. Sometimes I'll get a feed from the bass amp on its own track.

IEM sounds like a plan. I can leave them in through the whole gig and spare my ears some punishment.

Mike (bassist for East Crescent) has a line out from his amp going to the DL1608. John (bassist for The Hummers) is an unknown regarding direct since his bass is not in the PA and I never asked. I suppose I could have him go direct into the PA and send it to the stereo submix I capture in the Zoom.

I down-mixed the rest of The Hummers' recordings to stereo. I flubbed the monitor feedback EQ and the system was sizzling all night, plus the vocalists had trouble hearing themselves and strained their voices again. But I got a beautiful recording of it!

I think the recording sounds exactly like I expected. The blend of instruments and PA. I doubt seriously that there's much you can do unless you can find a way to record everything separately, when you'll have a HUGE quality improvement. I don't see the point off clever mic techniques in circumstances like this. The zoom on it's own mics would probably sound similar. As each gig's settings on the guitar and bass levels will vary, it's difficult to quantify if the next recording with a slightly different mic technique made a difference or not. I doubt if you can make much progress without solving the separation issue, which just requires money being spent. I think you made a decent job of recording the compromise you have to live with.