COMPRESS!!!!!and then compress some more...
with the compressors attack time, you can give the drums more or less punch..

David, I can understand why your drum recordings are anything but ideal.
The mic's you listed are not really of the highest quality. You really should only need about 3 to 4 or maybe 5 mic's at the most on your kit for a slamming sound.
Try to get your hands on a Audix D6 or a AKG D112 (for kick)
Also, my problem for years was that I was using pre amps that were on my mixing boards. If you can afford it try to get a (or some) outboard gear. I'm talking about pre amp's specificaly.
The pre amp is where all the "shine is". And you want to shine as a drummer. There are many to choose from, the better ones are a nice chunk of change.
Three things you want....(1st) good mic's (at least industry standards) they should run you anywhere from $500 to whatever you want to spend on them (the AKG and the Audix are roughly $199) then all you need is to decide on the OH you want to use as mic's for your kit
(2nd) quality cables.....it really will choke your signal path without these
(3rd) quality mic pre-amp's...like it or not this is the MOST important part of the signal path, using cheap pre's is a sure way to ruin the sound of even the best microphones in the world

In my experience the key to a full drum sound is in the preamps. When I used to record my brother's set I used to plug my mics directly into the preamps on a Korg D1200. They sounded realistic, but thin and not big like in real life. This was kinda depressing b/c it took the power out of the track. I run the same mics now through my 4 channel isa 428 and the difference is stunning. BIG. I am not endorsing any particular preamp, just a good one. Best of luck.

Justin

J-MADD wrote: the key to a full drum sound is in the preamps

Yes J-MADD I couldn't agree more. It took me years to see how VERY important pre-amp's are for all instruments and all microphones.
High quality ones are anywhere from $400 to $600 (per channel)
If you divide the cost of say a 4 channel pre by 4, then a Sebatron 4000e would be roughly $425 dollars per, pre-amp. Just to get my point across.
Not cheap, but if you want to play with the real toys, you gozzta pay like the big boys.

first..a lot has to do with balance. You need to pull all the other tracks down a bit and push the kick way up. Then suck out lo-mids on the kick. Try removing at around 560hz and a tliitle bit a 200. Limit the tracks as well. Don't get too bummed..pro records have a lot going on to get in your face drum sounds.

you can't make a ferrari with some ford pieces...

just don't expect much from that system!

8-)

inLoco wrote: you can't make a ferrari with some ford pieces...

Nope - But you can surely make a Jaguar with Ford peices :lol: :lol: :lol:
:twisted:

:cool:

ok, thanks for the update everyone, I think I'll end up getting a preamp first, then get a few good mics as well.

Also, I tried a recording with just 5 mics.

Two on the snare, bass, and two overheads.

The toms sounded like they were in another room. Very thin, roomy. Barely noticeable. I tried eqing the overheads, but the whole mix sounded too bassy. Is this a problem with the mic/preamp situation, or mic placement?

Dave

Weak toms in the overheads is a sign of a weak player IMO. I'm a drummer, and I tend to whack the Snare and Hats very well. The kick gets slightly buried in the room mics, as do the Toms. My cymbal technique also needs some attention for my heavier styles, as they can wash out the whole kit at times (I've been playing for 23 years now, and STILL have a long way to go :eek: ).

I am able to get a hair more of the "oomph" back into the Kick and Toms by using a room mic tucked as far back into a corner as it will go (opposite the drums, facing them, placed a bit low). Blend that with the Stereo Overheads (watch Phase), and add in other tight mics for added impact. I still use a good dose of tight mics on all drums. That won't change unless I change drummers (I AM the drummer).

It really is a playing technique issue IMO. These are just engineering "fixes" to a broken performance. I suffer from this as well :( .. One day...

A good artist will make you look like fantastic engineer with a LOT less effort. I need some good artists...

:cool:

sometimes I don't know why I bother...

...but again..nice gear is nice..and it does help. But aside from what is not inn your control, such as the drummer and his performance...YOU make the biggest diff.

I've recorded Ringo Starr on several occasions in a small room with just two nice pre's and a mackie for the rest. It slammed. Not as much as if I'd been at SoundCiity on the 8028 (big room too there)..but I can make almost any drums sound punchy and fat ..with almost any gear. I listened to your samples...the kick is w-a-y under represented...to start. Break your own rules. Listen to what's there and what isn't...LISTEN to the hoobastank sample you posted..LOUD kick..mids sucked..etc. Gear is great..but engineering skills are greater.

-peace

p.s. forgive the name drop..but I am trying to help..and this internet preponderance of focusing sooo much on the tools drives me (and others) buts sometime.

But I do agree..a 1073 on drums does help big time (it's just that you can make good sounding stuff without...even with what you already have)

RecorderMan wrote: I've recorded Ringo Starr on several occasions in a small room...

Holy CRAP you are my hero! Wow.... :shock: That must've been quite the experience.

In another note, could the "flat, hollow sounding recording" be because of phase issues? I noticed that once I learned how to set up mics in phase it made all the difference in the world. (Thanks to your overhead mic method no less)

davemoore -

listened to your samples - you can get where you want to be totally with mic placement i think.

the main part of the sound youre going for is kick drum driven

here's what id do:

1.) Put the B1 on the kick, since its the biggest part of your desired sound. Put the pad on the B1 so as to not hurt the mic with SPL. You will probably need to experiment with placement and the amount of muffling in the kick drum to get close to that sound. Compress after recording.

2.) Put the 58 on the snare.
3.)Put the two PG81's in an XY pattern right over your head (like less than a foot above), With their main task being to get the toms and the whole kit sound.
4.) Take one of the PG56's and stick it on the hi hat. You may not need it.

That's all you need for now to get the best sound out of your equipment. SMACK the toms, easy on the brass.

RecorderMan has posted in the past a similar technique for recording drums that I use all of the time now. Less mics is better than more more mics. Try a search for RecordMan and Overheads and it should pull it up. Ill try to find it as well.

Good luck. Don't be discouraged, drums for that style of music are really tough.

The famous "Recorderman Mic Technique" was popularized by this RecorderMan himself. Search the name in the forum and find the thread describing how to do it. Or maybe someone here has the link.

Get your mics in a good spot, then later EQ them till they sound good. Maybe try putting junk up on the walls to catch any nasty reflections you might be getting. If you can trick your mics and pres into sounding good with the gear you have now, then your recordings will sound AMAZING once you can afford some good gear.

thanks..but really I'm just one of hundreds (if not thousands?) of shmucks as good as and better than me. I did not drop RS name to be "cool"..I just want to stan out from the pack long enough for you to listen a little..and save you some money.

Don't ever lock down on any one technique..it is usually always different depending on the song and arrangement..one parts of the kit are emphasized, etc. Or not...there are no rules but one...make it sound great.

The balance thing is a good issue though. Think of it this way..you have maybe two tracks supporting the low end..Kick and Bass - forgetting for a moment that it may be two or more mics on kick and DI & amp on bass..etc. Against that look how many tracks/sources are in the mid-range: GTrs, Vocs, Snare, Hat, Keys, Toms, ect, etc. Couple that withn the fact that we as humans are the most sensitive to midrange. Now, how many of you have your faders (within reason) pretty close to each other in level? Try this for an experiment. Put your Kick and Your Bass up only @ around 0 and balance them against each other. Now bring in everything else, but keep everything else at around -5 to -10 of where the Kick/Bass are..notice how east it is now to have a phat punchy mix! Carve some lo-mid from the kick. Add some parallel compression to the drums..or slap some compresses on the insert (slow or mid attack fast release to let the attack through).

-peace

Thanks! You've all been a great help, and really I'm probably beating a dead horse here, and I understand your grief with always having to repeat the same things.

I've searched around and couldn't find *too* much on what I wanted. So when I asked, I was more asking if the only way to get a good recording is to get good pre's, plain and simple, OR if there was a real mic placement issue where I could get a lot better sound. Thanks for all the advice and I'll probably end up getting a 4 channel mic pre here in a month or two. One of the GOOD ones! I don't have a recording fund for nothing ;-)

As mic placement, I'll look for that post you mentioned, and just experiment! If you ever come across another idea or suggestion, don't be shy to shoot it my way! I'd rather get advice from the pro's, THEN try to experiment with it myself, then just stick with what I know.

Dave

I think Reggie meant this one:
http://www.recording.org/ftopict-9909-overhead.html+phase
Takes a while to read it, but it's worth the time!! I learnes a lot from it.
Good luck,
Gomp

dave,

Also,
Try renting these Audio Technica Mics from a local
music store before you buy 'em...

see http://www.audio-technica.com

ATM63HE on the snare (Top & Bottom)
AE2500 on the kick
AE3000 on the Toms
AE5100 on the HH & OHs

Put up some heavy moving blankets hanging from the
ceiling around the kit.
Vary the distance from the kit to your taste for your room.

KJ
----------------
Kyro Studios

What a bullsh!t about hi end preamp and industy standard mic's. I heard absolute sensational drumsounds from portastudio cassette recordings.
It's all about a combination of things; drummer himself, sound of the kit, sound of the room, mic placement, processing in the mixdown etc.
According to your wet recording, too much overhead (roomsound) in the mixdown. Lower these faders or cut mid and low's. Try more compression/expansion and equalising on indivdual tracks!
Happy experimenting!!!

Gotta say I disagree. Like I said I noticed a night and day difference on the same set with the same mics placed in the same positions between my good preamp and the factory preamps on the Korg. It adds fullness. I know you can get good quality without great preamps, but all other things being equal the recording chain with higher end preamps will sounder bigger.

Justin

^
But it is not going to make the toms louder if they are not played as hard as the snare; and the cymbals quieter if they are still being bashed...

You can help, but not "fix" this with engineering IMO. 23 years of playing drums, and I still struggle. Some players will just sound perfectly balanced with one mic in front of the kit. Not I :(

I agree with Steve to a good extent, but good equipment certainly has its place (good equipment belongs with with equally good players - which are MUCH harder to find AND afford than good gear IMO)... Good players in good rooms lend more simplistic micing techniques with superior results. It is a fact of life. Extreme DAW processing and sample replacement are everywhere now-a-days to compensate for these drummers like me :wink:

:cool:

If have the time to email them to me, I'd love to play with your raw tracks. Even 30 seconds would be fine. I'd need individual, non-processed tracks. This way I could tell you exactly what you could do to improve them.

That would be interresting, to hear what really could be done with the original drumtracks by someone who has the right equipment/knowledge.

THeBLueROom, if u get a chance to fiddle around with the tracks, U got to tell us exacly what you have done with them.. This is a great chance, for those of us who is not as skilled, to really learn something.

I get mostly bands with $300 drum kits and poor technique coming thru so I have a lot of experience with less than ideal drum tracks. I always have a little talk with the drummer before every session and tell them to practice certain techniques BEFORE they come to the studio now. I've learned my lesson. The drummer and drumkit are 90% of the problem and 90% of the solution. Good drummers with good, properly tuned drum kits ALWAYS sound better than the poor, untrained drummer. Sometimes, there is nothing you can do about it either...short of sound replacement. On my site it's easy to tell who the good drummers with good kits are.

You could find a place to publicly post them and we could have a contest!

Sounds great, tomorrow afternoon I'll get a decent drum track down to a click track and all that jazz. But again, I'm sorry for the raw tracks! I can't do anything about the bass! I've been trying to get a better kick drum sound and it's just so damn bad. I can't get it the way I want no matter how much.

So I'll post the raw tracks tomorrow, but before then, does anyone have *any* suggestions on bass drum sound. How tight the front head should be in relation to the beater head. Mic techniques, etc.

Look forward to the raw tracks tomorrow.

Dave

To be perfectly honest, the kick's fundamental frequencies are there, except for the beater sound. I'd suggest turning around the beater so the plastic side is hitting the head. You WILL get more click this way BUT you have to hit hard and evenly to keep the click sound consistent.

Also:
Play A LOT harder on the toms. You need some nice solid hits to make them sound good. From the sound of the samples, you aren't playing very hard at all. I'd suggest hitting the toms as hard as the snare. Kick that kick nice and hard as well. Try to hit the cymbals with just enough force to make them sound good but don't nail them ...with what you have there you'd be better served to have less cymbal noise in the mics, things will just get harsh after EQ and compression. Use your shure 81s as OH mics in stereo, forget about micing the hihat individually. Get a nice stereo spread with the 81s and that will be more than enough volume on that hihat.

Here is a good link that will help you understand the whole micing drums concept a little better:
http://www.saecollege.de/reference_material/index.html

*click on Drums and Percussion on the left hand side and then Mic Placement n the top left tab*

When you record and post your tracks tomorrow, make sure you give me each individual track and not just a stereo mix. Start with four stick clicks so it will be easier to line them up if for some reason they aren't sync'd up. The hoobastank kick isn't far from your reach. Just know that there is probably a sample mixed with the original kick in that song.

davemoore wrote: does anyone have *any* suggestions on bass drum sound. How tight the front head should be in relation to the beater head. Mic techniques, etc.
Look forward to the raw tracks tomorrow.
Dave

Dave,

check out Prof. Sound's Drum Tuning Bible at these links:

Prof. Sounds Drum Tuning Bible Ver 3.
http://home.earthlink.net/~prof.sound/index.html

PDF download
http://home.earthlink.net/~prof.sound/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/DTBv3.pdf

KJ
----------------
Kyro Studios

Thanks again, you guys are invaluable.

On the stereo mix I provided earlier, the OH's were pretty close to the cymbals and I did a poor job in mixing it so the cymbals were less, and there IS no tom mics, and no mic is really capturing any of the tom sound.

I reviewed RecordingMan's post about mic placement of OH's, and it's amazing! It's 9 pages long and mostly the same thing over and over again, but the main concept is there on how to place some awesome sounding OH's. This way, I don't even need tom mic's, and I'm getting an awesome tom sound.

The 'sae' page, I've read the whole thing already ;) Thanks for the link anyways though.

And the tuning bible is great! I'm going to fiddle around with the kick mostly tonight and try to get myself a good starting point, then post some individual tracks. Be back later tonight :)

also.... if anyone wants to know how my OH's are setup, take a look for recorderman's post on the OH placement. One will be directly above my head pointed at the snare drum, and the other will be right over my right shoulder, pointed at the bassdrum/toms.

Dave

davemoor..if your using a snare mic..then angle the OH over the snare towards the rack tom(s)..and the other (over right shoulder mic) towards the floor tom(s).

(These are the only mic's I have available as well)
Shure Drumset MicKit

* Shure PG52 -- Bass Drum
* Shure PG56 -- High Tom
* Shure PG56 -- Mid Tom
* Shure PG56 -- Floor Tom
* Shure PG81 -- Overhead
* Shure PG81 -- Hi-Hat
* Shure SM58 -- Snare (I don't have 57, only 5
* Studio Projects B1 -- Overhead

as stated in your first post, you did or didn't mic the toms? I'd suggest you do mic the toms when you do the raw tracks today, that gives me more options. Unless you have a nice room with nice mics, nice pres, a good drummer and a properly tuned drumkit, it's hard to get enough tom in the OH mix. Always give yourself more options. Use tom mics.

What considering I'm a professional engineer, drummer, have top of the line *everything* I don't need tom mics. lol

Yea, I'll throw up my tom mics. I was experiementing trying to get a more "basic" drum sound without getting everything too muddy by throwing up 10 mic's.

I believe there are two different type of engineer's when it comes to recording drums. You are either

A) Do what it takes to get the best sound possible, i.e. 25 mic's if you need to. Doesn't mean you'll USE all the recorded tracks in the mix down, but it's always nice to have options.

or

B) Get a GOOD sound by only a few mic's, i.e. use 4 mics, bass, snare, and two overhead's, in the right placement, right room, right gear, you'll get a monster sound just out of 4 mics.

Either way, I haven't decided which one I am, just trying to experiement and go with what I can do. I'll use three tom mics on the three toms. Two overhead's, a snare mic, and a bass mic. I'll provide all the details, and possibly pictures of the setup once I'm all done.

Dave

so this is funny 'cause I thought I was the only one with those shure mics heh

well as i have a similar system to yours so i thought i'd just drop in what i did myself for comparison, i'm not a pro, way from it actually it's only the 3rd time I record a full drumset, but between the 2nd and 3rd time I made some individual tests (oh, bass drum etc) but alwyas a lot of mixing between...

ok so here is my opinion on your recording (may it be worth or not..) :

I thought the dry mix was way better than your wet one, it's much more balanced, your wet mix has way too much bass (sub-bass like under 80-60hz) and there is no attack at all (2000-5000hz)
apparently you don't play hard at all, so there lies a part of the problem, slam you drums! I'd say even your snare isn't played hard enough....
for mic placement experiment more...I suck too
for mixing try to make something better out of your sound....

ok so my recording took place where my bands play. It's not a good room, all walls are concrete but on the floor there's a fitted carpet ( yeeehaa). well so here is what i used :

2 pg81 for AB overheads
3 pg56 for toms
1 sm57 for snare
1 pg52 for bass drum
1 C1 like ~40cm = 16in ?? from hole
tascam fw1884 --> cubase

http://www.donutsbadtrip.com/mp3/sons/dry.mp3

http://www.donutsbadtrip.com/mp3/sons/wet.mp3

As to just comparing your dry with mine I won't say anything cause my tracking sucks... I need a better bass drum mic

well i look forward for comments good or bad(which I prefer so i'll have to work =P)

I-Quality, I really enjoyed your mix, it's balanced and everything sounded great.

I especially enjoyed the tom's. They sounded even, not too deep or anything. What kind of kit are you playing on? Tell me a little more about your setup. How you miced the bass. Hole in the bass drum?

The wet mix from before was something I did real quick to post what was wrong with my mix. I'll post another wet and dry mix here soon. I'm still learning as I go.

The major problem for me is my room that I am recording in. It has dura-rock (cement plaster walls) so it's a very reverb room. It's not huge, 11' x 13' but it's not small. Just need to tackle the room -- but that's for another time.

Heeeeeerrreee we go. Raw tracks are up. After listening to I-Quality's dry and wet mix I feel a little sad because I already got my dry mix finished and my tom's are possibly a little to deep, low, and a little too roomy. Either way, I'll still post it. And see if you can compress/eq/gate/etc it to get it sounding fat and sweet! And then tell us what effects you used.

So to sum up, here is the link...
http://themoneguys.com/recording/rawtracks.html
Download the raw tracks. Put it into your favorite mixing program. Eq, Compress, Gate, Compress some more, Eq some more. What ever you need to do to get these drums sounding sweet! And after you're done, post a link to the file, or send it directly to me as a mixed down stereo wav or mp3 to Tasark@aol.com and I'll post it on the rawtracks.html site.

Once you're done -- DON'T forget to show us what eq, compression, etc you used. I'd like, if possible, to get a screen shot of the EQ layout of each track. For those who do not know, this is how. . .

Get the EQ settings on the screen for the particular track. Once you have it nicely and visable, hit the "prt scr" button on your keyboard. It's "print screen" also. It should be above the insert, delete, home, end key's. Go into start menu (if on windows) load up the paint program. Go to edit, paste. Now a screen shot of your computer will be up. Cut (if you want) just the EQ portion out and save the file. And send it to me and I'll post it along with the mix file. Tasark@aol.com

I played for some 15 minutes, and cut most of it out, so a few part WERE cut and I only spent the afternoon on it, so you may notice where two drum parts are butted up against each other, sorry. It ended up being 3 and a half minutes long. About the length of a normal song. I did play to a click track of 120 beats, but it ended up getting f'ed up and not with the click track after I edit a few parts. Sorry guys.

Have at it, and keep passing along the techniques and tips!

- D

the kit is a simple yamaha stage custom
pg52 was in the bass drum pointing near the beater at ~20-30cm and the C1 was 40cm outside of the bass drum pointing at the hole of the bass drum

just a little thing
if you want more body to toms or snare point mic to the edge, if you want more attack point to where the drummer hits the drums

awesome, got the tracks last night. I can definately work with them. I'll mess around with them tonight when I get home.

I messed with them a little last night. Just some FYIs:

Your kick track is totally distorted. Sounds like you overloaded the pre.
Your OHs aren't anywhere near the same volume. Probably 10db dif.
Your snare track came out fairly well. You have a decent snare and you had good mic placement. Now just hit it harder consisently ;) When you hit it hard it sounds so much better, just keep that in mind.
Toms came out pretty well too.

I mess around with them this weekend some more and I'll post something up soon.

re

Now first thing, someone probably all ready mentioned this but that hoobastank kick sound is probably heavily processed, is being run through nice expensive preamps, has maybe 2 mics on the kick, hell it may have even been a triggered kick sound that they chose to go with on mix down. They may have used the technique to extend the kick drum by putting another kick drum in front of the original kick and then put a mic in the second kick and pick up some of the lowend since it has had a longer distance for the wave to form. And also the drums they used for recording were probably rented from a drum shop somewhere specifically for the sound they trying to get on that cd. Another sad thing too is that the person who tracked the drums may have been a trained session drummer who could get the kick hits consistant and tuned perfectly.

Plus on another post here about drum sounds when by themselves (soloed) may not sound good in a mix. etc

just my 2 cents,

Now here is something from me to help get that sound for you. I would first make sure you have a pillow or something your kick to help kill the ring, and if possible use a double ply head. I mostly use my audix D6 (I have a beta 52 but the d6 is easyer to work with for me) and I place just inside the hole. now on tracking I first compress the kick at about 2.5-3/1 ratio with about 3-8 db of reduction and then add some 4khz shelving eq and cut some of the 300-550hz (parametric) and then only if needed I would add a little bit of 60-65hz. Next Check to see what it sounds like, check it with the bass gtr, and gtrs. Make a test recording and make adjustments to get more punch out of the kick, maybe you need more click and maybe you need to cut at a different frequincy etc... then it comes down to the drummer to have nice good solid punchy hits each time to get a good consistant sound. Plus you don't have to hit the cymbals that hard, If you hit them softer then you get less bleed into the other mics so you can eq the other drums more with out getting so much cymbal bleed into the mic. from there though its off to mixing the kick and readjusting the eq to fit in the mix and especially with the bass gtr, the kick also doesn't need that much lows either, the bass gtr will help give the lowend thud when played correctly which brings up something I don't think anyone's brought up yet, the bass gtr needs to line up exactly with the kick or it could muddy everthing up and sound off.

Now after that, I have still noticed a huge difference in a kick drum sound after mastering too, I could have an alright track that needs the volume raised and I will run it through my T-racks and It just glues everything together and makes the kick alot punchier, though if the kick wasn't loud enough at mix, it could get lost after mastering too.

So then your back mixing down the kick alittle louder than you think and then you master it again then it sounds good and thick and well worth all of the setup you went through.

Just me expeirence, I just do this for a hobby and I am still very young and learning too. But take everything you read into consideration and use what works for you. The micing technique I talked about earlyer gives me a nice punchy drum good for rock, pop/screamo etc but not for country music, jazz, big band, folk etc.

good luck man, and post some more tracks

Bob

As a newbie to this forum just let me say - this is fantastic!
As a drummer for 30 years I have been researching mic'ing techniques and gear for the past few weeks and have been getting a migraine; I have been trying to find out reviews about the Shure 6 pack mics you are using for your tests and have pretty much come up empty until now..

In the past I've either gone into studios where they have state of the art equipment or played live where the PA and mics are supplied so I haven't needed to worry about it - right now I am playing with a band and looking for a cost effective solution to recording our practices (so that its listenable and roughly accurate for our own ears, and good enough to play as demos for club owners) and mics that will be good enough for playing live if need be.

OF course it rots my socks that drummers have to have several mics and (in some cases)a sub-mixer to go into the main board while all the other members just need one stinking plug! Not to mention the state of the art drums, cymbals and hardware that we have to lug around.. Oh the joy! I must really be fanatical about drumming to put up with this - oh yeah - I am!! (I forgot).

So.. I am waiting with baited breath to see how this experiment turns out. From what I've heard from the samples it sounds like the mics will do the job that I'm looking for..

So Dave - are you still happy with the Shure mics? Is there any reason why I shouldn't take the plunge? Sounds like your problems are just mic placement and mixing issues.
Cheers,
Rimshot