I always recommend watching Fight Club before spending anything over 5K. Or going to Ikea. I hope this helps.

Well, been there done that. $25000.00 later, never again. Who knows though... I could definitely be wrong this time round.

I'm jaded. That being said...

I'm certain something new is around the corner when they offer these tempting trade in deals. ... be prepared. Usually 2 months later and its not such a good deal after all.

I did it, and will never jump into high end digi again. I love their software but not enough to invest in a constant drain hole of soon to be dated hardware. Big changes are coming. CP's are fasters, we need less of what was needed before. Especially digi hardware.
New computers and SSD are going to revolutionize the A/V industry.

That's what I'd keep my eyes on Hueseph.

(y)

Saw the same offer. Immediately read my daughter's tuition bill. The moment passed.

Mmmmmhmmmm. Much wisdom in the advice here. Gonna have to muster up the will power to say no to bloat. Kids must eat. Must keep roof over head.

Unless you need it as a business investment to bring in more clients, money, etc to get a leg up on your competition, then it's better to wait, buy a used system and then sell your LE system to offset the cost.

IN a few months an used HD Accel system PCI-E with a first or second generation MAC Pro is all you will need.

Alécio Costa - Brazil wrote: IN a few months an used HD Accel system PCI-E with a first or second generation MAC Pro is all you will need.

Hi Alécio,

Sounds like you are thinking the same thing as me. Why do you say this?

Something new is always around the corner.

Digi, like most other Pro audio companines these days, is going through some tough times. They have had a few rounds of layoffs over the last 6-months so offering a deal to hook more people into their HD side has been expected by many.

At the same time, people were expecting something big from Digi at AES a few weeks ago. It could be that they were not quite ready and are waiting for Winter NAMM. If they annouce something at NAMM, I would expect it will likely be more targeted to the ever expanding semi-pro and wanker market where there is still money to be made.

I myself think they may have already peaked with their best years now behind them.

AudioGaff wrote:

I myself think they may have already peaked with their best years now behind them.

I can't agree more. Guarantee, we're going to start seeing used PT HD systems in abundance. I talked about this 8 months back somewhere, I'd say if you are thinking it may be time to sell your rig... do it now.

SSD are going to revolutionize audio/video storage/ latency issues and so much more. Big changes are coming and its going to be good.

SSD's aren't what everyone thinks they are...

There's a lil' nasty that'll start to show up before long... SSD's are considerably slower at write speeds than conventional Ultra SCSI drives for 1/3 the cost.

To get into single cell devices which suffer less write latency, and write errors, you're still looking at 3-5 years before the technology investment will bring them down to reasonable costs.

Plus, there's liable to be several shake ups within the form factor which will, as is usually the case, leave the Redmond Retards scrambling to rewrite the OS again, so that it might actually be at least 50% compatible with the new technology.

Sorry, but I just don't see the SSD's as being anything to get excited over yet. (I saw beta's of the SSD almost 20 years ago.)

SSD's are what I use for OS drives and here is where they are great. Destination drives are still SATA/eSATA/1394.

YMMV

The release of Eleven Rack has pointed at a direction which future HD systems may go....

I hear ya, but when I see things like this it makes me wonder if its coming sooner than 5 years from now :!: I'm guessing we're going to see something transform a lot sooner than that. No doubt, as in the past, big rigs like PT HD selling on ebay for squat. But that's technology and to be expected. I simply wouldn't invest in PT hardware again after my last 25 grand lesson.

"Brandon Ryan demos Cakewalk SONAR Producer version 8.5 using a Shawn K. Clement remix of Cori Yarckin's "Everything You Said" with 140 tracks, 50 plug-ins and a high-res 800 MB AVI video file—all running simultaneously on a PCAudioLabs Intel Core i7 desktop machine".

update

I was only referring to SSD's. The rest of technology is moving on at a decent clip.

128bit OS's are gonna pop within 18 months... So I'd leave Windoz alone. The Redmond Retards are barely able to make a 64bit architecture run....

256bit OS's should be dropping on the market in 3-5, which is also part of what will change formfactor's and make most gear 100% obsolete.

I've caught skuttle out there that there might actually be some work being done on 512bit OS... THAT would absolutely boggle the mind as to what that kind of computing power would be.

But to be sure, I wouldn't be investing too much in any DAW that I wouldn't be willing to dump in 36 months for 25% of what you paid for it.

That's amazing Max... can't wait for this.

The Sonar clip, its all running on one SSD from what PC Audio Labs told me last week. This is why I'm so jacked up and expressing my opinion on the OP.

But to be sure, I wouldn't be investing too much in any DAW that I wouldn't be willing to dump in 36 months for 25% of what you paid for it.

(y)

One thing to note... as with ALL demo's and sales stuff...

Of course they're gonna show something that works great. They would be foolish to show any flaws in their system... Heck, go look at ANYONE's demo's... They ALL work perfectly.

That was a playback... and NOT a recording session... the one place where SSD's actually do perform well.

I seriously doubt you'd find that actual tracking sessions would work that flawless... midi tracks, might do ok, but I bet you'd still have to account for the latency and shove the tracks around to get em' lined up.

Heck, I used to have a song with 128 tracks in DP2 that ran flawless on playback... and that was a B&W G3. Film scores in PT and Avid typically run 512 tracks and higher... so it doesn't impress me all that much... other than the video wasn't totally hosed when you moved the screens around... but I've only ever experienced that issue on a Windoz box... so that might should be more impressive than it is.

Pro Tools maybe going to way od the dodo bird. I never understood why those cards were so damned exspensive.

PITA wrote: Pro Tools maybe going to way od the dodo bird. I never understood why those cards were so damned exspensive.

9 dsp chips per card. That may not justify why they are so expensive but that is the reason. These cards take all of the burden from your cpu. Granted cpus are more powerful now than ever but still.

I'm still undecided on this. It's a huge investment on something that may or may not be on it's way out. I do resent Digi for leaving their customers in the lurch when they know good and well that the hardware is soon to be obsolete. The price is a steal for an HD card AND a 96 i/o interface.

Here is another take to all this. Which should make us rethink what we should buy or need to buy to stay on top of what's really happening.
I feel, music technology, cheap or high end DAW's, influences the music scene. So, what we are able to do with this technology, has over the last 20 years changed the kind of music we write and don't forget what the youth is hearing and getting used to.

I used to have a Camero with cam'd up chevy 302 that went like hell. Nice fat tires, used gas like crazy but man what that a blast of fun!

The general youth today isn't interested in hot cars like we were back in those days.

I wonder sometimes if its all that important having all that ALL AT ONCE, tracking power anymore.

I fear a lot of things we call quality just don't matter to the crowd. Where are all those high end stereo shops gone?

Not sure where I'm going with this, but it does fit into why I wouldn't buy into a 20 grand ... 10 grand, 5 grand)) DAW anymore ( invest in the special gear). I don't know if its all that important to be able to record anything more than 8 tracks at a time with the way music is going.

Only a small croud can afford those expensive systems. And there are hundreds of thousands of kids out there using wanker tools with cubase, sonar, reaper etc two tracks at a time. They are the ones that are our future of the music business.
I miss the old days just sitting around a room with a bunch of friends, only listening to music on an expensive stereo. Those days are definitely gone.

Sorry for side railing this topic.

Only a small croud can afford those expensive systems. And there are hundreds of thousands of kids out there using wanker tools with cubase, sonar, reaper etc two tracks at a time. They are the ones that are our future of the music business.

Your comments are relevant, IMO. I run (up to) 16 tracks when recording (5 or 6 w/ singer/songwriters).
Granted, I'm a child in the big scheme of things, but I do adhere to some old school values.
On one hand, I use Cubase, am making the transfer to SONAR, and don't have the more traditional OTB setup - very limited outboard gear.
On the other, I own a select few quality mics and preamps.
I figure if I have a decent enough frontend, I can upgrade the interface as needed. Mostly, all of you taught me that.

I've had the opportunity to work w/ many locally recognized artists. The space I use gets some credit, but I believe it's my methods and having enough quality frontend gear that seals the deal, so to speak.

When I first saw this deal, I was ready to call engineer friends that had PT and offer to help them pay for the upgrade, but then my logic took hold:
Invest in mics and preamps, which don't go out of style. They're more important to my sound than any DAW or included interface, as I see it.

The way to look at this is in as many different lights as there are people... so if 100 peeps respond, there's gonna be 100 differing opinions... out of which you can draw various conclusions.

To me, I see a couple of different avenues for huseph to look down.

From a business perspective, you should be looking at this as a capital expense. As with any capital equipment investment, how fast can you pay off something like an HD rig? If it's 36-48 months, and you have clientele that is demanding it... go for it. If not, then let it go.

One thing I can tell you is that none of the lesser systems is in use as widely as Avid/PT in Film/Post/Broadcast/Major Label Audio. If you service any of those markets, then yes, you should invest in an Avid/PT rig. The big boys in these industries are NOT going to immediately dump their investments of hundreds of thousands of dollars. They're going to wait until that gear is completely worn out in another 3-5 years before they buy anything new... and will they completely walk away from Avid/PT and loose all of that legacy compatibility of catalog? We're talking hundreds of millions of dollars here... so that's gonna come into play as well.

I see "music only" recording as a reasonably "dead man walking" market. Lets face it, making money in this field is a loosing proposition for everyone except the manufacturers. audiokid's right... too many losers, wankers and wannabe's have diluted and polluted our craft. The quality of audio doen't mean anything to the masses. They have no idea what it's like to actually listen to music with the sole purpose of enjoying music for the pure enjoyment of listening. It's background noise to their pretty shallow existence.

I don't blame the masses, they're just sheeple... I blame the technology and the evil rat bastards behind it.

Technology companies don't care about quality of of content, nor do they give a flyin' rats ass about the quality of the audio product itself... Empty3's are proof of that. Look at u-toob... choppy, skank low res crap video and nasty audio quality... we've been fed so much garbage that people actually accept the nastieness that has invaded our society. There's no reason for the tech companies to boost the quality yet. They haven't yet been able to destroy the previous holders of the keys... the major labels.

Once they bring down the big boys, they're gonna' make a huge land grab for IP and copyright. Otherwise, you won't be able to get exposure, unless you cough up money or points as blackmail... hmmmm... "The new boss is the same as the old boss."

We'll see folks finally get a ticket to the clue bus when they start to demand as good of quality on their computers as they do from their HDTV's... but then it will be too late for the music artists to make inroads... at least here in the states, anyway. Again, you want access or you want to broadcast your stuff... "$hure, we'll let you do that... ju$t give u$ $ome money and you can do what you want."

In the mean time, the small studio has got to suffer along and either be compatible with the big boys, or use "wanker grade" stuff and suffer.

hueseph wrote: [quote=PITA]Pro Tools maybe going to way od the dodo bird. I never understood why those cards were so damned exspensive.

9 dsp chips per card. That may not justify why they are so expensive but that is the reason. These cards take all of the burden from your cpu. Granted cpus are more powerful now than ever but still.

I'm still undecided on this. It's a huge investment on something that may or may not be on it's way out. I do resent Digi for leaving their customers in the lurch when they know good and well that the hardware is soon to be obsolete. The price is a steal for an HD card AND a 96 i/o interface.

Those chips are and have been cheap for a very very long time. The price they are charging is a price they can charge. I have some very ultra high tech I/O card in a dynomometer cell that have way more hardware then a digi card and they cost 1/3 as much.

Just something that absolutely chaffes my ass.

Hell I'd take a bet they didn't even design the cards. Alot of DSP chip manufacturers will design them for ya.

The question is:

Do you ever want to jump into a hole?

My answer:

Yes, I have, I bought a foreclosed home that has lots and lots of updating to do.

I keep asking myself when I'll ever get any money to get a nice preamp but my senses tell me that I may have to settle for a DIY kit instead.

Hueseph,

Just wait about a year and see how much you can pick up one of these used.

I bet it will be significantly less, think of how much interest you'll be charged if you get it now.

IMHO:

Good things come to those who wait.

If you are trading up, your older digi stuff against it though, you loose by waiting as well. No one will pay much for any older digi stuff, except for digi. They'll give you a bit more.

Example, my PT mix plus system that cost me a total of $25 grand including my mac is absolutely worthless for a few years now. However, digi will give something like $1400.00 for it if I trade up. Only thing is, I still end up with dig'si on going rip off so I decided 5 years ago to bail and move on. My PT rig sits beside my current DAW's collecting dust. Whenever someone ask what I have, I always say Pro Tools and they are always impressed :)

Well enough of me, I sound like a broken record.

Main thing is, follow your heart. Do what helps you grow both as an artists and as a business.

I always say Pro Tools and they are always impressed

Ain't that the truth.

It's like 'Kleenex' around these parts (what happens in Vegas...)

I tell them I use wax cylinders

Great points, Max.

Even at the grassroots level I work at, I still get the obligatory:
"Do you have PT, and a U87? - No? - Click"
Names do sell.

And the dumbest thing you can do is limit what you can do.
Any service you can offer is an additional source of clients/income.

I'm beginning to think maybe I'm blessed. Granted, I'm charging rock bottom rates to build a portfolio and experience, but I'm getting busy enough that I have to schedule home time.

Also, I don't blame the tech, or anyone - but the "sheeple".
Markets respond to demand, and what the sheeple want, they shall get. Again, my locale has a long history of supporting local original music, as anemic as that support may be at times. So maybe I'm blessed..?

MadMax wrote: 128bit OS's are gonna pop within 18 months... So I'd leave Windoz alone. The Redmond Retards are barely able to make a 64bit architecture run....

256bit OS's should be dropping on the market in 3-5, which is also part of what will change formfactor's and make most gear 100% obsolete.

Alright Max,

So what your saying is be prepared for the OS wars! Yeah, looks like some rocky ground for sure. It would be nice if things would settle, but since when did that ever happen in the world of cpu? :shock:

That's the skuttle I'm hearing, yeah....

The word is that a company who's named after a non-vegetable and one who's named after a star in the center of our solar system are quickly coming close to beta's of a 128bit OS... based on a new CPU architecture.

The fact that these rumors are also following up with mentions of 2x128 as a means to get to 256bit, I get the impression that the form factor of everything in the mobo is going to be radically different.

What I've seen is that instead of a standard edge type connector like an ISA or PCI slot, it's some kind of plug... possibly optical? Pix weren't very clear.

Why even stop at 256bit ? hy not just goto megabyte and be done with it. At some point making the word longer doesn;t nessacarily translate to better performance. It just means each word will take longer to run in a given bandwidth. I think we have seen the peak of silicone speed in single cores at around 3.8 mhz.

Itty Bitty Minds is getting stable processing at up to 5.2GHz, so we're quite aways from the limits.

Then when you get into super conducting.... speeds get STOOPID fast.

The limits of processing word length get's pretty unwieldy at 256. The amount of addressing that's available is seriously mind boggling... even if it's parallel 128.

IMHO, stepping to 512bit addressing is going to tax most of all; the human mind, to figure out what to do to keep a processor happy processing the equivalent of 100,000 some odd full volumes of encyclopedia's per second. 1024bit addressing would be something on the order of 200,000,000 full volumes of encyclopedia's per second...

That's beyond anything I wanna tackle, but I guarantee you that you won't see much latency. :)

I haven;t been following CPU technology much the last few years but 5.2 ghz is flying on a single chip. So we should expect to see some quad 8 12 16 24 core chips sometime in the forseable future with 4+ ghz core in each position. Coupled with some good busing schemes WOW those will be some insanely fast machines.

I see your point with the word length though. I figure why bother with incremental step. Just go big or go home.

MadMax wrote: Itty Bitty Minds is getting stable processing at up to 5.2GHz, so we're quite aways from the limits.

Then when you get into super conducting.... speeds get STOOPID fast.

The limits of processing word length get's pretty unwieldy at 256. The amount of addressing that's available is seriously mind boggling... even if it's parallel 128.

IMHO, stepping to 512bit addressing is going to tax most of all; the human mind, to figure out what to do to keep a processor happy processing the equivalent of 100,000 some odd full volumes of encyclopedia's per second. 1024bit addressing would be something on the order of 200,000,000 full volumes of encyclopedia's per second...

That's beyond anything I wanna tackle, but I guarantee you that you won't see much latency. :)

MadMax wrote: I was only referring to SSD's. The rest of technology is moving on at a decent clip.

128bit OS's are gonna pop within 18 months... So I'd leave Windoz alone. The Redmond Retards are barely able to make a 64bit architecture run....

256bit OS's should be dropping on the market in 3-5, which is also part of what will change formfactor's and make most gear 100% obsolete.

I've caught skuttle out there that there might actually be some work being done on 512bit OS... THAT would absolutely boggle the mind as to what that kind of computing power would be.

But to be sure, I wouldn't be investing too much in any DAW that I wouldn't be willing to dump in 36 months for 25% of what you paid for it.

There is very little talk of 128bit OS's. Have you seen how well Xp 64-bit, Vista x64, or even Windows 7 x64 have been doing? It has taken years for the market to adopt this far to a 64-bit OS and CPU. Very little of the market, much less DAWs, run on a 64-bit machine. What would make the transition to a 128-bit process any easier?

That's just the OS side of the issue, then there is a CPU issue. Real integration of 128bit processors are more than 5 years away. AMD JUST released some info about their Bulldozer that is due in 2011. Watch that get pushed back to 2012. Then give it another year for prices to drop a bit. Then possibly another year for AMD/Intel to produce CPUs designed for midrange computing. All while this is happening, Microsoft is going to fail at pushing the issue and many software developers will downright refuse to put much effort into integrating 128bit support.

It's not going to happen for a long time.

But that's another story. With PCs becoming so powerful lately, why an HD system? What does an HD card do that an i7 cant? Nothing. Digi has dug themselves into a financial hole with continuing to engineer the HD system for so long.

Well, I don't think an i7 is necessarily the issue here. It's the fact that the 9 dsp chips on the card are dedicated to audio. The i7 has to run the os and any other operations running in the background.

Although many interfaces claim near latency free recording, an HD system can truly offer that. Virtually latency free without any hit on your computers cpu. There are other dsp interfaces out there for sure. MOTU has one, Steinberg/Yamaha have one though less featured and not nearly as powerful.

Are Digi overpriced? Hell yeah! Unfortunately, nobody's really putting up any real competition on the pro market. Most other DAWs, allow an open door for home users. That's not a bad thing necessarily but it is kind of scary that you can use Nuendo with your Cremative SoundBasher card. Hey, you could use it with your AC97 card if you wanted to.

At any rate, I chose not to go with the upgrade since word has it they are about to release something far more versatile. Hence they are ditching the HD systems to unsuspecting buyers. Typical Digidesign.

hueseph wrote: Typical corporation.

Fixed! :D