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anonymous 2 July 2003

First of all, I hope this post is appropriate here and not in the producer or the newbie forum. If not so, please move it there!

Second I don't know If there is a thread like this already running. At least I couldn't find one.

Since there are so many well experienced professionals here and also a lot of people in the process of learning (well, hopefully all of us are), I thought it would be a good idea to bring up the production of specific songs to discussion.

It would be really cool if people could bring up a song, or some aspect of that song, and ask: How did they get that sound?

Of course, given that anyone involved in, or with knowledge of that specific production doesn't respond themselves, this will be involving a lot of qualified guesses, but that would be a great quality of such a discussion; "this and that sound might have been achieved in this and that way, using this kind of gear and that kind of processing. ", "Well it might also have been done this way: (. )"

The songs could be classic ones with classic sounds or maybe lesser well known ones of interest, preferrably from all kinds of genres. As long as some people presumably have heard it or have it available it should be OK.

I will try to start this thing up with the first thing that comes to my mind. The song is "The things that I used to do" by G Love and Special Sauce, from their self-titled album (O'Keh 1994). It is since long one of my favorites, and I think the drum sound on that record makes it one of their most enjoyable albums.

The drummer obviously plays on a huge kickdrum and a high pitched (metal?) snare, and there seems to be some compression involved as well. So now I pass it over to you guys: How did they get that sound? How would you have done it?

As a reference for those who haven't heard the song, Amazon.com offers a preview here: http://www.amazon.c…"]G Love and Special Sauce[/]="http://www.amazon.c…"]G Love and Special Sauce[/]

I am hoping this could be an ongoing thread as new songs or sounds come up to discussion.

Lastly, sorry if I express myself strangely, but my mom only taught me swedish. :D

:h: Jonas

(I edited this posts title and symbol, "Welcome to speculate!" was added and the symbol changed from a question mark to a lightbulb.)

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anonymous Thu, 07/03/2003 - 10:03

Actually i only posted the link to Amazon as a reference for someone who did not hear the song, but still wanted to follow the discussion. The quality of the preview isn´t good enough to listen critically and discuss sound, I think. To be able to comment you should have the record or be recall the sound of the song.

Maybe I should stick to pieces that I know everyone have heard. I´ll wait and see..... -Jonas

falkon2 Thu, 07/03/2003 - 10:14

But hey, you never know. Even streaming audio quality (at crappily encoded 128kbps mp3 or ogg) would be enough for discussion's sake... If we're talking about the finer points of micro-mastering, that would be a different case, but meh.

If anyone really ever needs to upload music somewhere for dissection/discussion, please do read up on formats other than mp3 - APE, being lossless but quite filesize-heavy, would be an audiophile's dream, but more practical solutions exist in the form of the MPC format.

Then again, without space to host... meh.

anonymous Thu, 07/03/2003 - 12:37

Falkon, I was talking about discussing commercially available music. Please consider that up/downloading in this situation will not be looked well upon in these forums.

I really don´t want this thread to end up in a discussion about the rights and wrongs in downloading copyrighted music, (there is one thread going on about that already), so please stick to songs that you think at least some people may have heard.

falkon2 Fri, 07/04/2003 - 01:35

Good point... bringing up "online piracy" was never my intention (ironically disproved by this very post. ;) )

What's wrong with a 30-second clip that sounds indifferentiable to the original, though? I mean, if there was this audio effect in this obscure piece of music no one else has ever heard about...

Again, never was my intention to bring up pirating issues. I agree we've seen too much of that lately.

anonymous Tue, 07/08/2003 - 18:29

I can't belive it, 5 posts and none could answer jonas' question for how they got that sound. My educated guess for the snare drum sound is that the drummer used a piccolo snare, also using a technique in which the tip and body of the stick hit the drum and rim at the same time. I could also hear alot of room sound, so maybe to re-create the sound try using more distant miking techniques. So give that a try.

I too have a song that i'm interested in knowing "how they got that sound?". It's the snare drum sound from the song "my own way to rock" by Burton Cummings. It's a really crisp snare sound, it sounds like there was something placed on the drum. I remember when i was younger putting a record on a snare and having a similar sound, but that was before I had any knowledge of critical listening. I actually think its a type of drum but I still don't have a clue. So now i ask all of you -"Howdid they get that sound?".

Extreme

RecorderMan Wed, 07/09/2003 - 08:54

Originally posted by Extreme Coffee Jesus:
I can't belive it, 5 posts and none could answer jonas' question for how they got that sound.

The reason no one (like myself for instance) answers these types of threads is becuase for the most part it's specutlation. With all the variables of any session, from tracking to mix, it can be many things, and so just speculation. I mean there are literakky countless ways to achieve sounds...jsut when you think it was done one way you find out it was done another.
Yet, for those that dig this have fun...I'm just giving my guess as to why there are so few responses, as you say.

Rod Gervais Wed, 07/09/2003 - 09:52

RecorderMan is absolutely right......... trying to figure out how a certain sound or effect was done is pure speculation at best - pure bulls**t at worse.

Everybody old enough (like me) remembers the drum sound that Motown put out in the 60's........ damn - everyone in the industry tried to figure out how they did that - only one person that i know of did figure it out, and they hired him so he wouldn't spread it around.

We can 2nd guess all day long.

Now what I would consider more interesting - why doesn't someone figure out how they would try do it - and then put that onto some tracks - let us see how sucessful you were........

For the record - don't know how they did it - but it sounds like a deep dish chrome snare to me. No way it sounds like my Picolo - and if anything the heads sound loose to me rather than tight.

By the way - i am a drummer......... anyone hear a good drummer joke lately?

Happy Hunting

Rod

chrisperra Wed, 07/09/2003 - 11:12

extreme coffe...

this is just speculation, but if i were going to try to duplicate the sound...

i would find a dead room with very little ambiance, find a wood snare, 5 to 8 inches deep, crank it up, fairly tight, "a couple notches under table top"

make sure the bottom skin is fairly tight as well, the snares are pretty quick ,so you need a decent response from the bottom skin. the snares themselves aren't too tight though.

then get out a small to medium sized wallet and tape it to the top skin.

large amounts of duct tape would work well also. you could do the "x" or the "square" patterns. the standard stuidio duct tape "fins" would probably let it ring a bit too much.

like the previous responses pointed out no one really knows except those who were there. i'm just fostering a guess.

chris perra

chrisperra Wed, 07/09/2003 - 11:27

johnas....

to me it sounds like a larger 6 to 8 inch metal snare, maybe steel shell, maybe copper, that has been tuned wonky.

it sounds like the top skin is fairly old,theres little attack. also the snares themselves sound like there are very few strands left.

you can also get smaller strand strainers mostly for piccalos, but if you put it on a big honkin snare and tune the bottom skin so it doesn't resonate too much, most of the tone will come from the top skin. thus the ring.

i used to wind up with that type of sound when i was trying to not have my snares resonate out of control when i hit my first tom.

i got them not to freak out on me, but then i had little crispness from the drum.

once again i'm stating my earlier disclaimer that i'm just guessing here.

chris perra

Davedog Wed, 07/09/2003 - 15:43

Rod...heres two myths I've heard.Only one sounds plausible and only because I've seen some pictures that allude to it.

1.Motown snare....standard size...all the snares cut off except 4 or 5....gut head on top and orchestral batter(REALLY thin)under.
2.There are a few pictures of the kit.In the corner you can see a B15 ampeg cabinet ained right at the snare behind the floor tom...Bass activated but in the groove so its in time????hmmmmm.....

We should ask Bob Ohlson....he would know...he probably cant say though.He's over at the slutz mostly.

joke:How many drummers does it take to screw in a light bulb?

A: One...no, three...no, six....no,. five .....uhhh.....four,. :c:

falkon2 Thu, 07/10/2003 - 03:50

Recorderman: I'd agree, there's no way you'd be able to reverse engineer any and/or every sound that crops up unless you were Audio God or something. However, coming up with something close would be an interesting exercise in it's own right. ;)

And us n00b1s could easily benefit from the experience alone - Heading off in the right general direction is better than not knowing where to start at all.

anonymous Thu, 07/10/2003 - 19:07

Recorderman: I'd agree, there's no way you'd be able to reverse engineer any and/or every sound that crops up unless you were Audio God or something. However, coming up with something close would be an interesting exercise in it's own right.
-Falcon 2

As a newcomer i am always looking for ways to practice my critical listening skills, so to hear different styles of music that I don't listen to and to try and figure out "How thet got that sound?" and to hear others responses is a lesson in itself!! So i'm all for the how'd they get that sound idea's, so if anyones takes any interest in this throw out ides and post solutions.

Extreme

:s:

anonymous Thu, 07/10/2003 - 22:38

I agree that it is difficult to 'reverse engineer', given all the variables. BUT, let's assume for a moment that you could get the exact same room, the same player, the same kit, the same mics and placement, the same everything (the same weather even). Then, IN THEORY, you'd have the same sound, right?

Well, now, given my room and my playing and my kit and whatnot, there should be a 'closest approximation' that i can achieve, after which, i cannot get 'closer' to the desired sound, without changing one of the 'external' variables. (external to my engineering skills, for example, using a different snare drum).

You could even start a discussion about which particular variable, when changed, will advance your cause in the most dramatic fashion. (and each person's idea of drama would be different)

But, if you were able to discern that you had reached that point of 'closest approximation', and that you had changed all the variables that you could afford to (better room, better kit, etc...), then you could stop beating yourself up for not getting the sound you want and rest at ease, knowing that no matter what you did as an engineer, you could not get closer to the sound you were after.

I think there's some comfort there.

As an added bonus, if you really worked hard at trying all the permutations and combinations of this and that, I bet you'd learn a lot, discover new sounds and leave little puzzles for the engineers of the future to wonder about "how'd they do that?"

I liked what Rod said:

Now what I would consider more interesting - why doesn't someone figure out how they would try do it - and then put that onto some tracks - let us see how sucessful you were........

When i get up the gumption, I will. (and when i figure out how - i'm new) I've only been here a few days and I've learned a TON from all the experience here.

cheers!

Cameron Falk

anonymous Thu, 07/10/2003 - 23:35

So how come people can just go with the flow, people just have to question everything to death. We are a very creative group of people, thats what makes this industry so cool, I feel the point of this excercise is to get people to colaborate and give creative ideas as to how things are created. I know the chances of getting the same sound are next to impossible, but it's nice to hear the knowledge of the pro to the beginer about a certain idea, this gives the beginer a new set of ideas the next time they're put in a similar situation. Building this foundation is a great asset to anyone starting out is this field. So why don't we open our minds just a tad and start conversing on new ideas rather than sit bickering on how and why it can't be done.

Extreme

:s:

Rod Gervais Fri, 07/11/2003 - 04:32

Originally posted by Davedog:
(musta got the drummer joke).....[uh-ohh]....

Actually - i did get the joke buddy - but the squirrel hunter is cause no one other than Treena was supposed to read the answer..... sorry - i might luv ya like a brother - but business is business....... :D :D :D


Then a good question to Rod...Do all the Bongiovis' work in music??Seems like theres a bunch of em......

I know what you mean - they're like flies - just everywhere. Sort of like the Gervais' - if ya head into the northeast or Canada........ ;)

I don't know about the rest of the family - i do know that Tony produced a CD for his daughter and her band - and i guess she wrote a book - i remember seeing a few comments about it in a review - they made mention of the fact that she didn't mention Jon - however i haven't had a chance yet to listen to any of the cuts from the cd - but did hear a rumor that she wasn't as good as one might expect..... ahhh what the heck, we all know about a father's love for his daughter -

OK enough about the Bongiovi's - although i find it interesting that the person who raised the question in the 1st place hasn't responded to the answer.......

So Treena - nice lady person - :w:

was this the answer you expected - or do you know of someone else who figured it out as well........

Inquiring minds want to know.......
:s: :s: :s:

Happy Hunting

Rod

wwittman Fri, 07/11/2003 - 08:54

Barry, who i think is Tony's brother?, was a studio manager for a while. They're the only music-active ones i know of (with cousin John/"Jon").

It's true that unless you were there you can only speculate as to how someone got a sound.
One can say it sounds roomy or close mic'ed or double tracked and so on... but when it gets to specifics it becomes impossible to REALLY know and it's so easy to get up one's own colon in the minutiae.
I've been involved with too many records that i subsequently read the most outrageous things about how they were supposedly recorded to believe any theories put forward by those not intimately involved (and even THEN i am sceptical unless it's the engineer!)

One thing i haven't heard mentioned about the G Love record is that it could easily be a sample being triggered... has an awful lot of sameness to every hit. But who knows?

Rod Gervais Fri, 07/11/2003 - 09:33

Dayam,

I hate getting old(er).....grrrrr........ :D

I forgot about Barry, at one time he was the manager of Tony's Power Station in NYC...... but right now i believe he is still the manager of Right Track Recording Studio in NY.

Thanks for putting me back on the "Right Track"....... :D ;)

Happy Hunting

Rod

anonymous Sun, 07/13/2003 - 16:26

I was away for almost a week, leaving with fear that this thread would pass unnoticed, so I´m really happy to see there is a discussion going on.

RecorderMan: Yes this would certainly be speculating, and that was what I was after. Given a situation where you were asked to achieve a certain type of sound, you would have to start off somewhere before you could listen and evaluate. It could be started off in a lot of ways, and this is why I posted the topic; to be able to discuss and exchange these ideas.

Surely in a real life situation you wouldn´t say: "No lets not talk about this, it´ll only be speculation." You would probably just speculate, or you would just know how to get it (and then you MUST share it with us, if your employer allows, that is ;) ) No need to be anguish about not beeing right on the sound spot.

So c´mon let´s speculate!

Lots of creative responses though. Great! Keep it going and keep the example songs coming! One or a couple at the might be a good idea though.

BTW I was talking about the whole drum sound; the great contrast between the big boomy kickdrum and the bright ringing snare, the accented pumping sound of the hat, the room, and of course the playing.

Love to you all! Jonas

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