Chris Perra, post: 433082, member: 48232 wrote: I'd like to avoid the typical way many threads gravitate to buy a million dollars worth of gear, put it in a million dollar room as for people recording drums in a small room are there because they don't have an awesome room otherwise they would haha..

I absolutely agree.
If I was tracking drums I would try and fill the ceiling up with as much treatment as possible to make your ceiling disappear. Then, I suspect you've already done the obvious other ways to deal with your room to follow, but just saying.

Being said... , some expensive things do make a difference. I'd start off with a great ADC and one really top end pre. That will at least give you the signal. If you have heard my Lavry AD10 vs FF800 A/B, I do believe a better converter to what you have will indeed produce a much more open sound. If you can't hear the difference in my AB though, then you most likely will never get the bug to upgrade there. Conversion and stellar pre's are what I know I need. Everything else can be emulated ITB, good enough.

Hope that helps.

I'd have to hear an example of your A/B

To know of I can hear a difference.
Do you have an example?

http://recording.org/threads/portable-classical-music-setup.58895/

audiokid, post: 431926, member: 1 wrote: Same Choir,
Both of these products have their own ADC and mic pre's. In this very non clinical comparison (be sure to adjust the volumes),
Which one do you prefer or does it even matter?

Choir-Lavry-AD11-Royer-SF24
[MEDIA=audio]http://recording.or…

Choir-Fireface800-Royers-SF24

[MEDIA=audio]http://recording.or…

That's tough test to look at. There's big differences there. In volume, in the material and it sounds like to me mic placement as well.

From that test I like the Lavry better, sounds wider and more even. The difference in voice vs room between the 2 makes me think there's a different mic placement going on. It could just be the differences in material as well.

I work with a very small room because I don't have any choice.. 11x10'
I get away with it with close mics and 1 room simulator (altiverb)
I still use a ribbon mic as room mic.. but it's more like a mono mic that is warm and not HF agressive..

Chris Perra, post: 433086, member: 48232 wrote: That's tough test to look at. There's big differences there. In volume, in the material and it sounds like to me mic placement as well.

From that test I like the Lavry better, sounds wider and more even. The difference in voice vs room between the 2 makes me think there's a different mic placement going on. It could just be the differences in material as well.

Very true, but it was really easy for me to make the decision that a FF800 was not where I was heading, especially when it comes to acoustic reproduction.
Both are using the same mic and the placement is close enough to hear there is a serious improvement in the imaging. Better conversion and its analog circuitry is what better conversion does for you. But, keep in mind, I was also using the pre's in both ADC here. FF800 pres are tin and small sounding in comparison the the Lavry. So this also hs to be taken into concideration here.

Better pre's, such as the Millennia m-2b is a massive step up in imaging even more. So I ended up buying one of those in time as well. I have since sold most of my (so called expensive pre's) because great conversion and a few stellar pre's are all I need now. Everything else is a waste of money.
I record these choirs every year. I sold 2 FF800 after I did this and since then, have put most of my interest in Pro Audio towards pre's and conversion.

Is anybody finding that link not working? I can't log into mediafire weird.. it must be down.

Here's the mp3's if the mediafire link doesn't work. Not diggin the phases from mp3.

With Room Sim plain
[MEDIA=audio]http://recording.or…
Clean, just the natural drums
[MEDIA=audio]http://recording.or…
The room sim with pre delay
[MEDIA=audio]http://recording.or…
The same room sim but set to a farther distance
[MEDIA=audio]http://recording.or…

Attached files Class ocean way far Mp3.mp3 (18.3 MB)  Class with plain room sim.mp3 (18.3 MB)  Class clean drums.mp3 (18.3 MB)  Class Pre delay.mp3 (18.3 MB) 

How do you think you'd go here?:eek:

Attached files

Worlds first Hip Hop Studio haha

I love the sign on the outside that reads "private booths"....
how many would you fit in there???

Its like a phone booth :ROFLMAO:

About 15 years ago, our local rehearsal studio had rooms that were around 8 x 8 feet...
the carpet on the walls for soundproofing was about a foot thick, and it had a dingy aircon that was never cleaned....that putrid dusty smell you get.
Imagine, 2 x marshall amps with A cabs, An Ampeg bass amp with 8 x 10 cab like a fridge, a 24 track desk, a 9 piece drum kit, 4 mic stands and a bass player that had the worst smelling feet I have ever smelt in my entire life....even with shoes on.
You'd speed it up just to get through the sets...everything at 130 BPM+ like a thrash metal band just to get outside to gasp some fresh air...all the while its 38 degrees celcius (100 degrees fahrenheit) outside.
And to top it off it was about $45 bucks an hour.....

Talk about suffering for your art :rolleyes:

That would make an interesting thread....
'The worst rooms you have ever rehearsed / tracked / played in...'
I'm sure there would be a few good stories to tell :D

Sample recording sounds okay. I hear that boxyness in the snare. I'd add some high end either with eq or mic placement/selection. Maybe a nice cut around 2-400hz.

Given the jazzy nature of the tune, your not that far off with the drum sound. I would say move the over heads up higher but that's limited by your room. Perhaps a 'kit mic' 6-8 off the kit facing the snare and kick would give you some of that small roomy vibe.

Also since it's such a dead room, you may be able to keep the snare and toms less muffled as long as the kit sounds good and is in tune with new heads. This can 'open up' the sound and decay of the drums, while keeping the room dead your not getting the nasty reflections which would interfere with a nice kit. You can let the drums natural overtones give you some space and decay.

I'd also take some of the lows/mud out of the cymbals via hpf and mud cut, preferably in the way in.

That's not a 57 on the snare is it?

It's a 57 on the snare top and bottom if I went condenser on bottom it would open up as well.

Everything is unmixed I could clean up and focus stuff with eq . Yeah the cymbal height thing is tough I'll try moving it up a bit might be more open in the sense of proximity effect.

Sean G, post: 433102, member: 49362 wrote: That would make an interesting thread....
'The worst rooms you have ever rehearsed / tracked / played in...'
I'm sure there would be a few good stories to tell :D

Indeed. I was at a facility that had a French drain (drainage ditch) that flowed thru everybody's rooms on the back wall. This ditch had a broken pump, and doubled as a urinal for a lot of bands to lazy to walk to the relatively gross bathrooms. To make it worse, the facility got flooded every spring, covering the entire place with inches of water, including flooding the urinal drain. I literally bleached and power washed my equipment in my truck bed when I moved it out.

I've got plenty more... Drug manufacturing, prostitution, stolen property storage. Now that I think of it, I've only ever had one spot that was cleAn and nice, albeit with questionable air conditioning. The things people use these spaces for.

In fact the low quality of the general publics standards has completely re formed my business plan as a sound engineer.

You know that scene in The Blues Brothers where they are playing behind chicken wire?....
I played a gig just like that...
but it wasn't a country & western gig, oh no...
it was for one of the biggest outlaw motorcycle clubs in Oz...playing all the standards, Doors, Steppenwolf, Cream, Stones....
We had to lock in and ride that bus all the way to town....if we wanted to get out with our gear...
-And our lives :eek:

-We must have done something right though, we had a regular monthly gig there for the next 2 years.o_O

Tried the UAD Dream Verb on this version. It's really interesting how a simple room sim can make the tone of the drums seem lighter tuned a hair higher or mic placement a bit farther away and more open.

Dream Verb version
[MEDIA=audio]http://recording.or…

Ocean Way room sim
[MEDIA=audio]http://recording.or…

Attached files Class with plain room sim.mp3 (18.3 MB)  Class Dream verb.mp3 (18.7 MB) 

I think I like the Dream Verb version better....sounds more crisp and 'fresh' for want of a better word.

I agree it suits the rest of the tracks and the energy/vibe better. Pretty bizarre that that is the only thing I changed. It makes the snare less boxy and the toms open up more..

I've been mucking around with with my setup.. Same room etc.. Different mic placement and some other changes.. I'm looking for some opinions on phase as I've had some issues previously.. I'm not worried about the floor tom ringing too much or my snares taking off when I hit my first tom, that's just tuning and tweaking.

[MEDIA=audio]http://recording.or…

[MEDIA=audio]http://recording.or…

[MEDIA=audio]http://recording.or…

Attached files Phase_Convertor check.mp3 (6.8 MB) 

Chris Perra, post: 437079, member: 48232 wrote: I'm not worried about the floor tom ringing too much or my snares taking off when I hit my first tom, that's just tuning and tweaking.

It's also something that a lot of newer engineers seem to worry about more than they should - being far more familiar with using isolated samples than miking up real kits. A real drum kit is gonna have those little nuances; and it's not always bad to have them, either. I think your tracks sound good, although they are pretty hot in the mix you posted - then again you might have done that intentionally to make it easier for us to hear them.

There are a few things that I find to be crucial to getting a good drum kit sound...

The first is to have a well-tuned, great sounding set of drums.
The second is to have a good drummer.
The third is to have a good-sounding room to record them in.

I'm not hearing any issues with the sounds you are getting - other than maybe some minor EQ tweaking to add some presence to the snare and to take some of the boxiness out of it as well.
( If it were me, and I'm only speaking for what I would do - I'd not direct mic the hat, it sounds a bit too brash to me... I would use the overheads to grab the HH and make it more "silky" sounding, less in your face - at least for a song like this one - nor would I use a 57 on a snare's bottom head, and I think I'd probably raise the overheads up, too...)

IMHO of course.

Are you talking about the song with full band? I'm more interested in the latest one I posted. Just drums..no song per se.

I was speaking in general terms, but my comments:

DonnyThompson, post: 437081, member: 46114 wrote: I'm not hearing any issues with the sounds you are getting - other than maybe some minor EQ tweaking to add some presence to the snare and to take some of the boxiness out of it as well.
( If it were me, and I'm only speaking for what I would do - I'd not direct mic the hat, it sounds a bit too brash to me... I would use the overheads to grab the HH and make it more "silky" sounding, less "in your face" - at least for a song like this one - nor would I use a [[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.amazon.c…"]57[/]="http://www.amazon.c…"]57[/] on a snare's bottom head, and I think I'd probably raise the overheads up, too...)

were mostly based upon your latest "drums only" audio file.

Cool wasn't sure as "As song like this one" had me confused.. Thanks for the listen... these are dry, raw tracks, no eq or comp etc.. I have the Oh's up alot as that's where I was getting some comb filtering previously and wanted to make sure they were dominant. I think there is some direct Hihat but not much. There's also some cymbal bleed in the tom mics as they are akg 214s I manually edit/gate them for a real mix.

Sounds good to me Chris ! once mixed it'll make a killer sound !! ;)

Altought, the best way to detect phase problems is to put everything in the center and play with the reverse phases of each track. If when reversing a mic, the sound of the kit gain some frequencies instead of reducing some, it's time to investigate. But to me there's no such thing as a perfectly in phase drum recording. (Unless you record every instruments seperately)

Fab Dupont once said : "Is it in phase ?" "I don't know but if it sounds good who cares !"

History fact : Martin Stevens himself (Love is in the air) told me that when recording that legendary hit, they've recorded every drum instruments seperatly to get them perfectly seperated and help the mix time... He also believe they were the first to do that at the time. A good choice or not, it proved no rules could'nt be bent :)

I'll need to get my snare dialed in tuning wise and tweak the floor tom a bit. The main thing I m concerned about is if the snares boxiness is a phase issue between mics or just the snare tuning itself. It's a dead room so it doesn't get to breathe as much as it should. I've got a room sim on every track to create a room vibe. I'll play with that as well to see if it opens up the snare.

I remember there was a Scorpions album that Dieter Dirks produced in the late 80s that had all parts of the kit recorded separately for isolation. The sounds were great. . The feel was crap ha ha.

Have you ever experimented with ripple-tuning your snare?

What does ripple tuning mean?

Is this what you mean? If so.. nope.. I'll tune all lugs the same with bottom skin pretty high. My drums in general are out of tune.. new skins.. they are still settling .. The toms are Aquarian coated Performance 2's I've never used them before.. Sort of like darker heavier Remo's.

Chris Perra, post: 437126, member: 48232 wrote: Is this what you mean?

Yes.