Probably the hardest thing for aspiring engineers to grasp is at what level to mix the LdV. The tendency is to mix it too low.

•The one that comes to mind is mixing so it sounds really great in the mix room on those speakers, but not checking against reference CD's and trying it out elsewhere.

•In a related area, thinking that it is a good idea to mix and master in the same room, unless the engineer is REALLY good and really knows what he/she is doing.

•Another one is overcompression, especially with inferior compressors orplug-insto achieve a super-loud CD.

•Then there is over use of fx and processors in general. Too much reverb. Boosting EQ all over the place (instead of cutting). Overcompression of individual tracks. Just cause you got it, doesn't mean you have to use it. Especially if the track was recorded well and sounds decent already.

•Overproduction in general. Does the song really need all those synth strings, the Mormon Tabernacle choir, and 14 tracks of hand percussion? "Less is more" works far more often than not.

As far as commercial CDs, I know a lot of times my main objection is with reverb. Not so much with hip-hop, which avoids it, but with Adult/Contemporary and Jazz vocals. Especially when esses are hyped as well. I've heard some Shirley Horn and Ray Charles recordings, e.g. where the reverb choices really distracted from the music, at least for me. I'd have to go digging for the specific CD titles.

Pretty much what littledog said.

1. Most new recordists don't seem to realize that most of the available eq also has a cut control, which usually goes unnoticed.

2. Miking the soundhole of a guitar is usually not a good idea.

3. There are other microphone designs other than 1" cardioid condenser mics. Some actually work better for some applications.

4. Just because a particular mic works well on your voice or your guitar, it doesn't mean that it will work well on every voice or every guitar.

5. Microphone placement is more important than the actual choice of microphones.

6. The placement of the microphone is more important than which microphone you use.

7. Different microphones "hear" sounds in different ways. Once you understand that completely, everything else gets much easier.

Thanks all, for taking the time to reply. It's been so slow around here since the subscription came in I'd started to regret spending that $24.
Receiving well thought out and courteous replies from knowledgeable folk like yourselves makes it feel worthwhile again.

jim

Originally posted by hargerst:

2. Miking the soundhole of a guitar is usually not a good idea.

/QB]

I have a slight issue with this much professed statement. If your after a really full & woody A-gtr sound (like a good ryhtm sound lets say), then a '57 through a 1073/1176 combination any where near 3/4 tpo a foot in front of the sound hole is amazing...but this is off topic.

How about this one:

Don't try to mix the same day you've been tracking. Especially if you've had the cans on for six hours.

..oh...btw...everything else you said hargerst was absolutley on the mark/words of wisdom (in my, again, humble opinion)

Well, I did include the word "usually", meaning YMMV, but I haven't been able to achieve good results with an SM-57 pointed at the soundhole from 8" away. I suppose it depends on the sound you're trying to get, the particular guitar, and the player.

If I were advising a new recordist on how to mic an acoustic guitar, I would still warn him away from that positioning. "My guitar sound is boomy" is one of the major complaints I hear, over and over.

But I'm glad we agree on some of the other points.

If I were advising a new recordist on how to mic an acoustic guitar, I would still warn him away from that positioning. "My guitar sound is boomy" is one of the major complaints I hear, over and over.

Your right. I bow to your experiance. My technique (as described) is a bit from the advanced side (Pete Anderson'esq). It really works well though, the response of the '57 cuopled with the 1073/1176 takes care of the "boom"....tight and in your (or my) face.

insightful as ever, rm, but let me get this right, you mike the 'boom', and run it into a compressor, via a preamp

is that correct?

is there any eq in the chain (eg, low cut?)

is the compressor clamping down?

interesting idea,
thanx,

cheers,
max
newcastle, oz

Originally posted by max:
insightful as ever, rm, but let me get this right, you mike the 'boom', and run it into a compressor, via a preamp

is that correct?

is there any eq in the chain (eg, low cut?)

is the compressor clamping down?

interesting idea,
thanx,

cheers,
max
newcastle, oz

It's easiest to where cans, move mic around, out in front of sound hole (sm57-neve1073-1176) till you find the best sounding spot (your call). I get by with no eq, I hit the 1176 fairly hard (7-10db of gain reduction), attack is fairly slow (9 or 10 o'clock) although some times I may move the attcack all the way to 2 o'clock, Release: almost always fully clockwise (fast). Ratio? 8:1 sometimes 4:1.

Foe a completely different thing, try the sm57 up some where around the 5th fret or so, about 8" out mic initially parralel with the neck facing towards the body; once it's there, angle the mic to face towards the sound hole (about 40 degrees I think away from the original parallel position). SM57's are great!

BACK ON TOPIC.

The BIGGEST mistake I see (pretty rare, I usually only "see" me mic'in') is the quickness with wich eq (and for that matter compression) is used when recording.

Hypothetical Scenario.
Engineer throws mic's up on an instrument. Comes in, listens, sit's down and starts to "eq" the sound.

instead. Start in mono. Move instrument till it sounds good in room. Move mic position, and/or change mic&position untill it sounds as good as possible, then add eq. Like Al Schmitt says (and unless your going for a "radical" sound) if you need more than a cuople of db on an eq, you've either got the wrong spot or the wrong mic; or both.

thanx, rm

i'm going to give it a try

Hmmmm, I don't know if I officially qualify as a pro or not. I do have a studio, know a few things, and receive money for my services.
One mistake that I see a lot from newcomers is they want a "catch all" answer to various situations. Knowing how you'd like something to sound is half the battle. Once you have that, working out the details of making it happen isn't as difficult.
:w:

Originally posted by The MIDI Room:
Knowing how you'd like something to sound is half the battle. Once you have that, working out the details of making it happen isn't as difficult.
:w:

I don't know about anybody else but I nominate you to "pro" status with that answer.

That's my biggest frustration with all newbies. thinking that it's any particular piece of gear or technique. The whole is bigger than the sum...so to speak. It's the collection and mastery of all your knowledge and experiance, and hoe oyu adapt and use the tools with the situation your in...within the time and budget constraints allowed.

Originally posted by RecorderMan:
I don't know about anybody else but I nominate you to "pro" status with that answer.

Why thank you RecorderMan. I'm quite honored (sniff sniff)
Technically speaking, I'm still a low man on the totem pole. I don't think my many years with a four track and 6x2 mixer count for a whole lot.

Originally posted by The MIDI Room:

Originally posted by RecorderMan:
I don't know about anybody else but I nominate you to "pro" status with that answer.

Why thank you RecorderMan. I'm quite honored (sniff sniff)
Technically speaking, I'm still a low man on the totem pole. I don't think my many years with a four track and 6x2 mixer count for a whole lot.

Hey, working with minimal gear forces you to come up with unique and innovative solutions to common problems. Experience is still the greatest teacher.

I would almost never (i just can't say never) mic an acoustic guitar in front of the sound hole. That would be the same as micing a bass cab in front of the port. The sound from an acoustic guitar mostly eminates from the soundboard. cedar flat fats

Originally posted by Cedar Flat Fats:
I would almost never (i just can't say never) mic an acoustic guitar in front of the sound hole. That would be the same as micing a bass cab in front of the port. The sound from an acoustic guitar mostly eminates from the soundboard. cedar flat fats

never say never. I do this quite often with a 57-1073(or 1272)-1176 thing. Great for rythm A-gtrs with lots o'body and bite). It's not the only way, by a long shot.

Most common mistakes? Autotune. Phasey drums. Overcompressed / Wrong attack/released times on compressor. Levels. Use of the Sony EQ. Poor or lack of documentation during the TRACKING stage (overdubs happen). Underestimating Beatles/Beach Boys records. Blaming bad engineering on the medium (analog/digital/protools/tape/etc) they are working on. Boasting EQ instead of cutting EQ. Doing drugs/booze while engineering. Not listening to the instrument in the live room before trying to get a good sound in the control room. Not 'saving' and then having a crash. Working 3 days straight during the mixing stage (counterproductive). Assuming that because a peice of gear is cheap that it sucks. Not printing drum samples to a drum's dat.

Originally posted by RecorderMan:

Originally posted by The MIDI Room:
Knowing how you'd like something to sound is half the battle. Once you have that, working out the details of making it happen isn't as difficult.
:w:

I don't know about anybody else but I nominate you to "pro" status with that answer.

That's my biggest frustration with all newbies. thinking that it's any particular piece of gear or technique. The whole is bigger than the sum...so to speak. It's the collection and mastery of all your knowledge and experiance, and hoe oyu adapt and use the tools with the situation your in...within the time and budget constraints allowed.Aww, be nice to the newbies...

well. We all know that we have favorites in our bags of tricks yes? Sometimes those come from exploration (its 2AM :gee, I wonder what would happen if I ...)and others come from our pigheadedness(dammit, I am going to find a way to get this stupid mic to work on this stupid conga... whatever). The second part goes back to all of our "inner newbie".

So common mistakes?

Not taking the time to explore different options. (Sometimes the clock is ticking and we reach for EQ when we should get out burrito eating behinds up and move the mic around? or someone else has the "good" 414's in the other room etc... you know)

and yes, the plug-in craze is out of control. It is symptomatic of the entire digitization of the world. Everyone thinks a POD and Pro-Tolls is all they need.

I think everyone should start out on 4 track(gasp! analog) with a 57, a 58 and A Fender Twin as your outboard gear and see what you can do with that first.

nP

(Incidentally, my nephew is starting at the SAE school in the fall so I will have tons more to say on the newbie subject ... )

Most of the common mistakes usually occur in the mixdown; too much reverb, vocals too low, or guitars bass and kick all fighting for the bottom few octaves. What comes out is a lack of space each instrument needs to have. The two biggest mistakes I see over and over? The first mistake is soloing each instrument till it sounds great by itself, and then not realizing that the total mix now sounds shitty. The second biggest mistake is using ALL the tracks the group has recorded.

excellent comments e-cue
:w:

another home recordist's mistake, is when you finally get that great drum sound, you stick it upfront in your mix, 'coz you're so damn proud of it (meanwhile, the vocalist and the rest of the band are huddling behind the kit in the mix)

done it myself and heard it yesterday on a indie record

For me personally, it is an ongoing struggle to lay off compression in mixing...

That, and getting all caught up in the "gear mania" and buying on compulsion rather than buying on present and future needs... :eek:

(Dead Link Removed)

hey harvey,
this is off topic, but i checked out your web site and its really impressive. alot of great info there.

i didn't know you worked with albert king...he is my all time favorite guitarist.

Albert King was one of my favorite people. I remember one show at the Ash Grove shortly after he bought his Acoustic 260 amplifier.

During the second show, it started to feed back. Usually, Albert was quick to turn his flying V down and turn sideways to kill the feedback, but this time, it was in key, and he just let it go.

I watched as a big smile spread over his face as he found the sustained note worked with just about every chord the band played; it was the day Albert discovered controlled feedback, and he was like a kid with a shiny new tricycle on Christmas morning.

Albert was one of the kindest, most gentle men I've ever met. Some people have mentioned that Albert could be very gruff if he was asked for an autograph, but that was to hide the fact that he never learned to write.

There are many people who have passed on that I still miss almost every day; one of them is ALbert King.

>Like Al Schmitt says (and unless your going for >a "radical" sound) if you need more than a >cuople of db on an eq, you've either got the >wrong spot or the wrong mic; or both.

Sorry for replyig to an earlier thread. But ya'll keep mentioning something i have a big problem with. I use eq to make things sound seperate and i have alot of trouble geting things seperate with out eqing everything(alot). I think it might be a limmited mic selection, but i have recently expanded that. i dont know. How do ya'll get away with not eqing? What are somethings i can do to seperate instuments with out eq?

Modify the sound at it's source. If it's a bass amp tweek the amp tone. Same with guitars.. A lot of guitar players will go for the same type of tone ( you know the one, super distortion with NO mids). Record them as they are and then let them hear a playback. Then tweek it some on the amps, record them again and let them hear the difference. Explane to them what is happening. It may convince them to change they're ways. A lot of times, musicians in a band will all play the same chord in the same octave and voicing. This can make it almost impossible to differentiate between them, especially if they are all using similar tones. Arraingments shoud be altered to get the guitar players and keyboards to play different chord voicings and in different octaves. This will remedy the "pile up" of the instruments. This is a perfect example of it's not what you record with, it's what your recording. While your correct in saying it's better not to use radical eq settings, bottom line is, do what sounds good. If you need to use 10dB of eq, do it! Thats why the eq's all have that much range. Try to cut eq instead of boosting whenever possible.... Fats

To get us back on track;
hargerst, RO Moderator wrote;
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The first mistake is soloing each instrument till it sounds great by itself, and then not realizing that the total mix now sounds shitty." This is so true it cracks me up. I almost soiled myself when I read it and I agree that this is the most commen mistake. The logic follows that if each thing sounds good by it self it should all sound good together, but it ain't so. Sometimes you will have tones that are so similar that they mask each other and turn everything into a sea of hash and mud. The key is to listen to everything together in context and the fix the problems. Put everything up even with no e.q. and then take it from there...........Fats

I aint a pro but for mine I say,

Dont start without a plan.

Reactivity can be very ego fulfilling (the idea perhaps that you are more than dealing with problems on the fly or being able to deal with issues and not be overcome by them) But the more you can minimise the effect issues pose in their cropping up, the better. Sometimes a session turns into a mission: that is unavoidable, But to be prepared, like having already prioritized pieces of gear for particular tasks or instruments, Like having extra DATs or Tape ready, Having whatever creature comforts it takes (or your budget can afford) Just whatever.

I believe the further away the vibe gets from 'fun' then more than likely you are documenting this in your recording. (I know a tense vibe can be appropriate in some tunes).

Anyway, if this is me being obvious then ignore it

invisibl,
You are so right. In the music business, rewards are so intangible that if your not enjoying yourself, what's the point. I have told singers many times, "Smile, you can hear it on the tape.".........................Fats

I read this thread for the first time, and I like it. I'll throw in my $.02. I have just recently corrected this mistake with a bunch of studying and little money and some work at the table saw.

Spending all yor money on gear and not using some for room acoustics.

Since I balanced the acoustics in my studio I have to make no compensations in my mixing. They travel so much better!!!!

boomy guitars i smell a drednaught :) try using an om (orchestra model) or 000 sized guitar to minus some of that boom from your recordings just like selecting the correct mic and positioning etc using the correct guitar with correct strings for the sound you want can be just as important as well

I am certainly not a pro either, but have been involved with music/recording for 25+ years on one side of the console or the other...

My comments:

The first mistake is soloing each instrument till it sounds great by itself, and then not realizing that the total mix now sounds shitty

So true, but conversly, I think the opposite can also be true at times. I have seen where an acoustic guitar track was doubled using the built-in pickup and blended with the mic'ed track. The pickup track sounded like major *crap* when solo'ed, yet when blended in with the rest of the mix added just the right flavor...

My biggest problem is never knowing when to say "It is finished". I listen to some of my songs a couple of weeks after "finishing" them, and think to myself..."Wow...with one more little EQ tweak on that one vocal part...this song will be perfect!" Well...you see where I'm going here...There must be a balance between resting your ears to give your music a critical listen a week or so later vs. the "never done" syndrome.

Finally, someone mentioned acoustic treatments for the room...absolutely! I am just crossing that bridge with my own home studio, and the few tweaks I have made already have made a *huge* difference! I now have a master plan to be completed within the next 2 weeks or so, but this is way huge!

Great thread...keep it up!

This has been a very informitive thread and if possible, I would like to see it stay current for a while longer. I'm positive the is more out there that we can all take away from this. Lets hear it! Fats
You can't polish a turd! :D

You can't polish a turd! :D [/QB]

You can if you freeze it!