ICU live in Anaheim California? There are so many wonderful studios out there! Generally you will get what you pay for. Now the better studios will cost you well over $100 per hour! The basement studios and wannabe engineers may cost you as little as $10 per hour? Most decent studios will have decent engineers on staff. I suggest you ask to hear some of the work being done with the people that you are interviewing. I know some large studios here on the East Coast that would never play you any of their work and although they are large expensive studios, everything they did/do sounds like crap! A friend of mine does some lovely work with a cheap console/PA board and an ADAT machine with a cheap audio card on his computer.

Can you say " crapshoot"?
Ms. Remy Ann David

I mixed and had mastered as well as printing, packaging,and the first 1000 copies of a full length( over 40 minutes of spinetingling and inspiring music) for a touch under 5 grand. This does not include the tracking, though most of the basics were done in two days (14 songs), and the tweeking took as long as I needed as I own my own home-type studio.

The quality will always be as good as your engineer and songwriter are clever.

Thanks for the responses

we have studios lined up already.

One is an actual studio with multiple iso rooms and a large room for drums, it has a neve 8108 console with a decent mic cabinet which includes Neumannns, royer, sure, senheisser, akg e.t.c. (going to track overdriven guitars and vocals here). The other is a friend's garage converted studio for tracking drums, bass, and clean guitar, and is very adaquate but lacks the mics for guitar and vocals.

So we're left with the task of finding a place to mix our material and another to master it. From everything I've read, it sounds like i want to find a separate place to mix, and then a separate place to master, which are both separate from the recording studio. So, I'm trying to find a couple new set of ears that charge a reasonable rate for high quality service. (I've recorded in two crap studios in Orange County here, and want to research it all and get it right this time). Needless to say, this E.P. will set us back in way of funds, so getting it wrong, and then trying again to get it right is ought of our budget.

Any recommendations? I just dont even know where to start, so I thought I would ask the people who know.

Thanks,

Chris

Track EVERYTHING at that Neve equipped studio! The action occurs at the microphone input and the associated microphone preamplifier. Mix on anything else! That's the ticket! Don't cut your precious rhythm tracks at your friends basement studio! What were you thinking?

Or do the reverse? Track on anything else, even in your friends basement studio and mix at that Neve studio! Then you have all of those awesome equalizer's at your disposal during your mix. Even without the Neve microphone preamplifiers it will still sound like a Neve There's nothing else like that sound.

Waste not want not. Gimme' all the Neve U got!
Ms. Remy Ann David

here's my deal...

For tracking, if your gear is crap, its better to go to a studio for tracking that has better gear that you can use.

Our gear is decent. Vintage Marshall, Vintage Celestion speakers, Mastersound cymbols, so our gear isnt the problem. Yes, we would like to track at the Neve equiped studio also, but our friend's garage studio isnt bad either. Its not as good as the Neve equipped, but he has a focusrite protools 24 input board, avalon preamp, apogee converter, big ben clock (sorry, i dont know what all this is, i just remember seeing it in there) and i believe the same exact mics for drums also. He just doesnt have the mics for guitars or vocals. Since the other mics left over are 57's, the sure 80something (long silver pencil thing), a dragonfly and some other condenser. Doing everything at the Neve studio is slightly out of our price range even with the $50 an hour we're getting it at. becuase we wouldnt have much left over to mix or master with. So we're trying to figure out how much mixing is so we can figure out how much time we can budget in the studio for guitars and vocals.

Chris

Off topic but relevent... some people think its a good idea, after tracking, to get the first song mixed to a standard that everyone is totally and completely happy with (you can't change your mind later, its done, thats it- so be sure) and then play it to the mastering engineer who is gunna work for you, get his comments BEFORE you procede any further. He probably won't have too many problems, and this consultation should be free. When this track is done it sets the standard the others have to be mixed to, that way all the songs can sound consistent, and you don't have to endlessly re-mix every track, everyone sholuld be happy.
Very best of luck with it
M

Most artists making their first recording these days are producing their own material. But being a producer is a skill and talent unto itself. Most musicians are lacking in this area and are usually handicapped with inexperience and low budgets, as well.

The advise in the previous post is very good. Take one step at a time. Have potential engineers work on a single tune. If the engineer does not provide a sound compatible with your own sensibilites, you will avoid blowing your entire budget. This methodology takes longer and requires patience, but you will dodge a lot of bullets this way.

For starters, the SM57 is one of the best guitar microphones to put on any cabinet. The long skinny Shure is the SM 81 and is a fine back electret condenser microphone. Good on almost anything with its flat linear response and high output level, low overload capabilities.

It sounds like your friends basement studio is not your average basement studio and is probably just fine for your purposes. Even with those " questionable" microphones you mention.

The always questionable
Ms. Remy Ann David

VintageSound05 wrote: ...we're trying to figure out how much mixing is so we can figure out how much time we can budget in the studio for guitars and vocals.

This question is almost impossible to answer accurately. The variables involved are dependent on objective and subjective processes which cannot be predicted. Number of tracks, song lengths, number of songs, quality of tracking, etc. are objective things whose man-hours can roughly be estimated. But what happens when you want to be creative during the mixing process? Ideas pop up while mixing, experimentation starts to happen, and the hours start stacking up. Very difficult to estimate this time. And what about talent? One mixer can take your tracks and create and adequate presentation, while another turns them into an artisic musical experience, how do you put a price on that?

I am sure your goal is to build a recording which is successful with audiences. You may find "engineers" who will mix for a fixed fee per tune. My experience with such engineers has usually been an initial abundance of enthusiasm. Usually they are green engineers and excited to have a project. But their inexperience typically equates to longer mix sessions as they figure out their craft. And as the hours/days pile on their attitude declines as they realise they are making less money than a McDonalds employee. A person working for such a compensation scheme is not usually in a frame of mind to provide their best efforts.

You get what you pay for. It is up to you to weigh how well an engineer, working within your budget, is achieving the degree of success you are comfortable with.

ok, here is my perspective on all this. as i help a lot of bands out with this one.

#1. Tracking is everything. You will never get the sound you are looking for if you don't track in good sounding rooms.

#2. Drum sounds will make or break your record. Track live at the neve studio doing drums, bass, basic guitar tracks and scratch vocals.

#3 Do the overdubs at the cheaper studio. Getting vocals and guitar parts and all the little shakers, cowbell, tambourine, tuba and what not can easily be recorded after you get all the main tracks laid down. I have found with rock bands that drums and bass go the quickest, and vocals and guitars usually end up eating all the tracking time. you want to be able to try out a bunch of guitars and amps and stuff, and all that takes more time than most bands can afford.

I think this method would get you the most bang 4 the bling.

ymmv.

steve

Yeah, the garage studio is not your typical. Drums sound great there and the bass sounds good too. The only problem we had was a littel lack of warmth with the guitar and the vocals was. I just wasnt getting the guitar sound I wanted. I have not tried at this same studio though since I upgraded my amp and speaker cabinet though. Another factor is, the friend who can record is us is more knowledgable and creative about setting up mics for the drum sounds than he is for the guitar sounds.

I'd be curious to know whether or not an SM81, a couple of 57's, a dragonfly condensor and another can looking condensor (i need to find out what model) with teh focusrite pres and an avalon VT-700 series pre can deliver a warm and thick overdriven tone. Remy - if we record in this garage basement, we will surely mix at the study with the neve console. But the vocals have sounded pretty thin when we've tried recording everything with this garage studio before. And the engineer there doesnt record much guitar, so its aolmost just a point and play kinda deal with the mics until we get something thatsounds decent (and he gets the levels set and so forth)
---------------------------
About getting what you pay for. i understand that also. We're lucky enough to have access to a decent studio for free, and another better studio that will cost us $50 an hour, but has even better gear. But even with great recording gear and instruments, I would just like to get a mix that is more than adjusting levels and minor EQ. We self produce ourselves (arrangement and sound wise..but we dont know what mics and pres to pick out for our sound). Before we go into the studio, we're goign to sit down with the engineer and go over our sound so that our time in the studio is as fruitful as possible. Thast a good idea about getting one mixed and having the mastering person comment on it.

Thanks for the responses guys.

Chris

sounds like you already have your mind made up and your just trying to get people to agree that you are doing the right thing.

i wrote a huge response to this, but i guess everyone needs to learn their own way, and possibly it will turn out great.

if / when it doesn't turn out as well as you hoped, pm me and i will help you get into a good studio in LA and/or work out rates for you to come record down here in san diego if your interested.

best of luck.

steve

Sorry Steve, i didnt actaully read yours yet. i am responding from work.

The garage we have recoded in actually sounds decent, its not a straight rectangle and there are vaulted ceileings. Sound reflections havent been a huge issue unless the amp is placed right next to a wall. So tracking instruments is possible, thought it will be drums while i play direct in on guitar to get those down, and then go back and do guitaqr parts and e.t.c. Im not crazy about that, but we play to a click.

WE've been happy with the drum sounds in this garage studio though I'm open to trying them at the studio we have to pay for. Since we're out a bassist currently, I will record the bass at a different point in time. I've thought about recording the drums and overdriven guitar live together at the Neve equipped studio and then doing the other rhythym voerdub track for panning there also. Then, guitar solos and such can be done at the garage studio i spose. I would be curious to hear other thoughts on this.

#3 For us, we've got our specified equipment, and wont have a choice to choose different amps and guitars e.t.c. though we've upgraded our instruments to pretty standard stuff like vinatge marshall, vintage celestion speakers, les paul, strat e.t.c. We'll get very close to the sound we're after with our equipment, maybe not 100% there, but close enough to have a good sounding recording where instrumetns werent the issue.

The biggest thing about recording the vocals at the cheaper studio is that when we've done it before, there have been inconsisitencies in volumes between vocal takes. Now, I am the vocalist also, so it means i was standing a little further away or something...with instruments, the mic and speaker cabs and drums all stay in the same place, so we set the levels, play, come back the next day, play again. So with the more expensive studio with a more experienced engineer, i was thinkign that he could probably get a more consistent sounding (better) vocals, not to mention the added warmth of the board.

I mean - a focusrite digidesign 24 input console, avalon pre amp available, big ben clock, apogee converter, sm57's i believe akg drum mics, how bad can that be?

Chris

Zilla wrote: You may find "engineers" who will mix for a fixed fee per tune. My experience with such engineers has usually been an initial abundance of enthusiasm. Usually they are green engineers and excited to have a project. But their inexperience typically equates to longer mix sessions as they figure out their craft. And as the hours/days pile on their attitude declines as they realise they are making less money than a McDonalds employee. A person working for such a compensation scheme is not usually in a frame of mind to provide their best efforts.

You get what you pay for. It is up to you to weigh how well an engineer, working within your budget, is achieving the degree of success you are comfortable with.

I beg to differ. All mixers I know (including myself) base their rate on a per mix (i.e. per song) rate.

It is sounding good in about 4-6 hours with it done in 8-12 hours on average. Usually you leave it up over night and come in the next morning to tweak it and print (with fresh ears), then move on to the next. Frequently the first one can and does get "recalled" ( you use the settings that wee documented...except for digital presets and DAWS that come back virtually instantaneously) because as you move through songs you hone and refine the mix process to the relative production the sound. Sometimes on a severe budget you can do more than one or two songs a day. With DAWs now you can even spend a day or two quickly working and then moving on through a bunch,,,and then reopening and tweaking for a another day or two.

If you haven't found anyone yet, PM me...either I or some of the other great producers/engineers/mixers I know can help.

sounds like your on the right track. the thing about vocals is that getting consistent level is the job of the mixing engineer. there should be different takes with different microphones, etc.

i ALWAYS comp vocal tracks to get the best takes and put them together and then do a second comp to get the doubled parts whether they are used or not. part of the mixing process is doing comps whether drums, guitars, bass, etc. sometimes this is done during the tracking process but a lot of times when i get material to mix i like to have backup takes in case there are flubbed notes or something that the tracking engineer (even if they are one and the same) miss something.

from experience recording many bands and my own band as well as interning and seeing a lot of bands record, the vocals of rock music generally dont need a u87 or c12 or you need a good singer, a decent mic and try a bunch of different techniques until the vocals sit correctly in the mix. i found it is so much easier to obtain this in my personal studio than the more expensive studio cause you are not on the clock worrying about getting it right. you know that it isn't gonna cost you another two weeks salary if you screw up your tracks. this mentality generally helps singers perform better.

if your interested, send me an email to steve@slantview.com and i will talk to you about mixing when your done tracking. even if you don't use me, i have some friends in LA that do a great job and have very well equipped studios for mixing down and mastering.

steve

RecorderMan wrote: I beg to differ. All mixers I know (including myself) base their rate on a per mix (i.e. per song) rate...It is sounding good in about 4-6 hours with it done in 8-12 hours on average.

I failed to express my position about fixed fees fully. Let me retry.

Yes, many reputable engineers will offer per-song rates. I know quite a few actually. However, they work in the sphere of $1000-$5000 a mix. Lets use your own figures and presume 8 hours to complete a mix. At a $1000/mix rate you would make $125/hour. Obviously this rate allows for a lot of latitude for their involvement in the quality of the mix. In addition it allows for access to a top notch facility. 5 song ep = $5000.

Another scenario: The original poster discussed a $50/hr studio which is still a fairly reasonable rate to do good work at and give access to good gear. $50x8hours = $400 per mix. A 5 song ep should then be about $2,000.

And then there is the "budget" solution. Let's say $100/song. If a person working at that rate is even actually capable of completing a usable mix in 8 hours, that works out to $12.50/hr. More likely it will take them twice as long, therefore $6.25/hr. I, myself, have yet to work with anyone in creative fields who produces consistently successful product at such a rate. Not to mention that the equipment they would be employing would be fairly pedestrian.

It is this third category that I was mainly referring to in my previous post. Hope that is clearer.

Did I mention that My mix was done in a ProTools room with Digi Control and an HD3 maxxed out?
The cost of the mix...as Recorderman was alluding to, will go down as far as an hourly rate using a place with recall and a great engineer. As has been mentioned, do NOT overlook the value of tracking to a set of high-end preamps. It will also keep down the cost at mixing when everything already sounds as it should.

If you cannot get a great guitar sound with a Neve and a good room then the problem lies somewhere besides the gear involved.

The most important thing, given a reasonable equipment list (like both studios you mention), is the skill of the engineer. If you record at you're buddy's place, who is engineering? Are they any good? Can they get a good sound? If it's your buddy engineering, can he play AND engineer skillfully at the same time? That's a skill in and of itself...

Thanks everyone. From everything that you've all told me, we decided to up our budget slightly to fit in the time in the better studio. I'm hoping that with the better pres and mics available to us, the mixing will be slightly easier (translating to a little less cost). Our budget alots for up to 5 days in the studio we must pay for and as much time as we need in my friend's garage studio (for adding in overdubs here and there to spice things up a bit)

Since there are only two of us right now - we are considering hiring a session bassist (which the engineer told me would run about 100-200) as opposed to me going back later and doing the bass).

If we forsee ourselves approaching our budget before we have completed what we need to, what instruments are most important to record? Our music is primarily guitar driven, but we want a big drum sound and warm vocals which doesnt narrow much down. We just want a recording that has life in it, not one that sounds cold to the ears. I'm thinking guitars and drums for sure in the better studio?

After speaking with the engineer who will record us in the studio, he recommended someone in the same recording facility (same complex) that does mastering for $125 an hour, and he told me that it will probably take an hour to master each song. This particular Mastering Engineer has dedicated equipment, so its not just computer software. I will be getting prices from people through the forum, but I have no concept of how long mastering takes per song.

As Davedog and someone else mentioned, mixing is entirely by the hour and what you want from it. Can you tell me if 1000-1200 is a good estimate of mixing 5 songs for a respectable caliber mix? We're hoping for something better than a demo mix (which is adjusting levels, maybe doing some hard panning of instruments and basic EQ).

Thanks for all yoru responses, you're really helping me make some educated decisions about what to expect and do to get the most of our limited budget.

Chris

VintageSound05 wrote: Thanks everyone. From everything that you've all told me, we decided to up our budget slightly to fit in the time in the better studio. I'm hoping that with the better pres and mics available to us, the mixing will be slightly easier (translating to a little less cost). Our budget alots for up to 5 days in the studio we must pay for and as much time as we need in my friend's garage studio (for adding in overdubs here and there to spice things up a bit)

Since there are only two of us right now - we are considering hiring a session bassist (which the engineer told me would run about 100-200) as opposed to me going back later and doing the bass).

If we forsee ourselves approaching our budget before we have completed what we need to, what instruments are most important to record? Our music is primarily guitar driven, but we want a big drum sound and warm vocals which doesnt narrow much down. We just want a recording that has life in it, not one that sounds cold to the ears. I'm thinking guitars and drums for sure in the better studio?

After speaking with the engineer who will record us in the studio, he recommended someone in the same recording facility (same complex) that does mastering for $125 an hour, and he told me that it will probably take an hour to master each song. This particular Mastering Engineer has dedicated equipment, so its not just computer software. I will be getting prices from people through the forum, but I have no concept of how long mastering takes per song.

As Davedog and someone else mentioned, mixing is entirely by the hour and what you want from it. Can you tell me if 1000-1200 is a good estimate of mixing 5 songs for a respectable caliber mix? We're hoping for something better than a demo mix (which is adjusting levels, maybe doing some hard panning of instruments and basic EQ).

Thanks for all yoru responses, you're really helping me make some educated decisions about what to expect and do to get the most of our limited budget.

Chris

It is possible to get an EP Rate at some of the top mastering rooms in town for 5-6 songs with just a ref (one CD you then take to duplication). I'd go that route.

THE most important thing at this point for you is specifically the personal (Recording, Mixing & Mastering). I would go work in a closet with a pro than @ The Record Plant with a fairly inexperienced assistant/staff engineer. Sometimes you can get lucky. The question is ...can you afford it. You can get great Vocals and Gtrs in a relatively small place with as little as one channel of great equipment. You absolutely need the big studio for the drums. One way to REALLY save money is to cut everything including temp drums at your friends garage. Then when you think your done...go book time at the big place and overdub great sounding drums. This way you can focus all your time and energy on just drums...you could go slow and get multiple takes in two days...really Have it down? t You can do the mixing with the same approach. Produce it in such a way that all your ear-candy (special effects, etc) are done. Record Gtrs with the tone, with pedals, as close as you want to the final...this will get a more produced sound on a tighter budget. Then when you go into mix you only really need to EQ, compress and ride a little...the production is in the tracks.

good luck :)

Thanks recorderman. I think we'll contact some places and get their price quote on an indie EP project. Also, we want the live sound of drums and guitar together, its how we play and keep the energy high for ourselves, but it seems like we're going to do drums and rhythym guitars at the big studio (rhythym guitars being 2 overdrives and 1 clean for the switching parts of the song). Then go to the garage studio and do the bass, then come back to the big studio for lead vocals. your idea about adding in the ear candy is a good one. I think we'll take are near finished product to the garage studio and put in little ear candy overdubs. Hopefully it will mix itself in the end.

Thanks for the help.

Chris

I'll mix it for free.....what do you have to lose? What if you like my mix over the one done in a commercial facility?

I'm one of the people Remy politely called a wannabe, but I work hard and love what I do.

Therecordingart, youve caught my interest. email me at skidward at gmail dot com (i can't PM through here). We wont be recording itll the end of april.

Chris

Arthur, please accept my sincerest apologies. I've been watching some of your posts and it's obvious to me that you really do know what you're talking about. I do like your avatar of you and your girlfriend and/or wife (I presume?) you seem like a nice couple? That was a very nice offer that you made regarding a mix. Obviously you would not have made an offer like that if you could not back it up with a quality product.

Foot in mouth syndrome
Ms. Remy Ann Dadsnfujfjhgfjkgid uck! David!

For both the recording and mixing be prepared to explain as clearly as possible the sound you hope to achieve for each instrument. If you can't put it into words, bring in samples from other finished tracks/discs, as example, where you can.

A studio that also has alternate instruments and amps available to you, will be beneficial. If you don't have a producer then don't be too stubborn with your recording engineer if he or she makes a suggestion to use different instruments or amps or simulators like POD XT Pro to achieve the sound you're looking for.

If you're going to a pro studio to record then make sure to practice thoroughly BEFORE going in to the studio. Know your parts, solos, lyrics etc. - hone and refine your performance as much as possible.

-----> YOUR PERFORMANCE IS EVERYTHING!!!

A great performance with the right feeling for the song can sound great even on low-quality instruments and gear and a poor performance will sound, well... shitty... even on the best gear. If you're dreaming of a label one day keep in mind that you'll impress them more with great song and a great performance than with production alone.

For guitars, also recording a DI track will give you the option of re-amping your great performance later to achieve the exact guitar sound that you want.

For drums, you no longer have to only rely on just getting the best audio recording. A mix with a triggered kit, or software like Drumkit From Hell Superior, can also get you to the exact drum sound you want.

And yes, $200-$300 per song, for a good recording in the hands of decent ME for an EP is a reasonable rate.
Miracles, however, command a premium price and will cost more!! :)
Getting everything right, or as close to right as possible, at tracking time will save you money later at mix time.

Always, Always, Always, (did I mention ALWAYS?!) check examples of the work of your RE, ME, and Mastering... Anyone who won't let you listen to an example lacks confidence in their work and has something to hide from you - 9 out of 10 times it will be that they do poor work and really want to take your money. Make sure the provided examples are also within your musical Genre.

If I were you - I'd take that offer from therecordingart. You can't beat the offer of a FREE mix example of your own song and if you don't like what you get back you've lost nothing but your time. Post an mp3 on Soundclick at http://www.soundclick.com when you get the example back and post the link to it here so we can all check it out.

KJ
------------
Kyro Studios

KJ,

Thanks for the info. We're going to a decent studio, somewhere between pro and not pro. I have decent guitars and amps which I chose for my sound, but we're going to the studio this thursdsay to scope out everything available at the studio. I think there are some les pauls and a DW drum kit, cymbols e.t.c.

From what I've read, I think we're going to plan on tracking drums and rhythym guitars and vocals at this decent studio and bounce to the free studio to do bass (whjich is still through an avalon and digidesign focurite console).

Yeah, i'm beginning to understand that performance is everything. After reading all this, i'm thinking of taking in two amps and using an A/B swicth between the two so that i can record straight through with the drummer (our music switches between clean and distortion) to get that live energy from us (thats how our music is best) and then i'll go back and re record the clean guitar with a strat to get the clean tone i desire. is that a common practice?

I've already emailed therecoringart to take him up on his offer. It can't hurt at all!

As for the songs themselves, I think we've honed in on a pretty good format with solid hooks. Now its adding in "ear candy" to make the song more interesting and polished sounding. Out of curiosity, is there an area where people lsiten and critique format and hook e.t.c. or suggest ear candy that might sit well with the song? If so, I'm game to have people listen. I just want our expeirence to be as productive and worthwile as possible.

Chris

Do you have any rough demos of your songs? I'd be happy to through in my 2 cents as far as production ideas go.

Remy, it's cool....I just hate being made to feel like a piece of crap for trying to break into the business and work my way up. Everybody in the business started at the bottom including you...and that is where I am now. I have no problems working for free, and putting out the 10's of thousands of dollars I have invested so far without profiting one red cent. Eventually I'll be 100's of thousands into this, and I don't care if I ever break even.....I enjoy it too much and it isn't my bread 'n' butta.

Hey Art, here's a link to our myspace site where you can hear our rough demo.

http://www.myspace.com/skidward

i also opened up a topic for critique on the songs in the songwriting forum, if you respond on either thread ill be sure to get it, or you can gmail your ideas back to me.

Chris

Hey Chris! Just listened to all of your songs. I think they are bitchin'! Dammit! You West Coast guys always do cool rock-and-roll. I like your strong melodies. Real melodies. I found your songs conceptually strong. I think the concept of your mixes were also quite good but I do see why you want a better mix engineer to take it to the next level. I like some of the stereo tricks you were playing with. Quite imaginative.

In many ways, I am like Arthur. I have invested enough in my facility and throughout the years to have bought myself a nice house with cash! Instead, I have no house, just a whole bunch of equipment, a lot of experience, much talent, hardly any business anymore and not much money left. But I do it because I love it and for the Art of it. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't mind making a few dollars more doing what I love. Instead I will continue to work in television doing crappy sound for news and other talking head shows.

Famous producer (in my head)
Ms. Remy Ann David

Thanks for listening remy. Do you have any ideas for ear candy? Are there sort of standard ear candy add ins people do or is it pretty much just the creativity of the person mixing or producing.

I've read something about detuned vocals (not quite sure what that is). I believe its taking the said track and then giving it a shift in frequenxy so it becomes the 3rd, 4th, 5th note of the scale being sung. I hear a lot of vocals done this way on records, whether they're actually being sung or it was a Digital Signal Processor, I dont know.

I'm really looking at vocal effects to use,nothing big. but stuff like, adding a touch mroe reverb to one channel than the other, or compressing a track and then panning...those kind of secrets....sometihng that wil reach people on an subcontius level to make the music more dynamic sounding so that they want to keep listening again and again.

Chris

I think every engineer/producer has some "secret recipes" of things that they like to do to create an emotional impact? Many people plan carefully for some things other people like myself believe in the power of spontaneity and whatever emotionally tickles your brain.

Regarding your question about "detuned vocals", 2 popular processes come to mind. One of the effects I used to like using was with my Yamaha SPX90s, it was a stereo pitch shifting effect that minutely shifted the pitch up by a few semitones, fed out of one channel and shifted the pitch down by a few semitones in the other channel, while also including the direct unprocessed vocal. A very nice effect on many things that also helped create a stereo effect from a mono source.

The other pitch shifted effect are some of the popular vocal harmony processors that also have the ability to change the vocal formant. My favorite being the Ethel Merman preset. Absolutely dynamite! LOL It also can change a boy to a girl and a girl to a boy but I don't want to go there.

I do like your concept of the " perspective shifts" you're trying to obtain. I like that kind of sound that makes you feel like you've just been goosed! Aurally Speaking.

Don't touch me there! I'm not that kind of girl.
Ms. Remy Ann David