I say that you definitely need to hear down to 60HZ.....there is a lot going on in that area that I can either make or break.

me being ultra bass junkie, i like to feel...

BUT IT's NOT ESSENTIAL FOR A GOOD MIX, i rather have a nice set of speakers which give me a picture of the whole spectrum plus a good sense of detail and imaging!, it's easy to mix bass heavy, unless you have only bass you can hear / feel from your monitors, in numbers, no idea, i prefer dynaudios or genelecs (i love genelecs: reason: i just know them very well, they are probably not the best speakers on earth, but which ones are??? he?, i am extremely used to them and can easy do mixes which translate...), i have no idea how deep they go in numbers... but i am simply able to mix on them the way i want to. period

i might repeat myself, but i think this whole issue is a matter of combination and what you get used to, speakers, room, amp, all other gear you use plus your experience, knowledge and ears... messuring that in numbers is rubish! i think...

People also don't understand how high 1k is too, but that's not the point.

A above middle C (A 5th fret on high E on guitar) = 440
A open on guitar = 110
A on bass guitar= 65

High E on guitar = 330
Low E on guitar = 82.5
E on bass guitar = 41.25

AC hum = 60

Of course you have overtones, but these are just the fundamental frequecies. I used A = 440 because that's the most common way to tune something to a concert pitch. (Concert A = A above middle C = 440hz)

meh

I honestly think 50hz or 60 hz is fine.

Thats enough to get a good balance of of kick/bass and things like that.

After a while you should be able to look at the speakers and tell whats going on below that. If they look like they are about to hit you in the face...... :shock: you get the idea.

not much goes on under 40 on commercial records anyway..... i always hp around 35 or 40 when i master....

but i must say i'm building some subs right now and i expect them to go a bit deeper.....

and for mastering it's nice to be able to hear what's going on "down there"

but alot of factors influence our perception of low freq's... as kurt said it needs to be really loud (due to the flecther-munson curve) and it takes alot of energy.... actually 4 times the energy to play the same volume at half the frequency.... for those who don't know that means that if you need 100 watts to play eg. 120dB @ 100Hz then you need 400 to give you 120dB @ 50Hz..... (and think about a PA.... if you're running at thousands of watts it really means something)

and the same goes for membrane excursion..... 5mm's @ 100Hz means 20mm(!!)@ 50 Hz

most common speakers output absolutely NOTHING below 45-50Hz.... and most speakers that people think has "deep" bass actually just have a boost (typically from the port) @ 50Hz

you CANNOT make a 6 1/2" output 110dB @20 Hz

(another little known fact is that in a given volume a smaller driver will go deeper than a large..... but you need a larger membrane to move the air)

very few speakers can give loud output below their resonant frequency
... the cone excursion rises dramatically

below 100Hz and definately below 50Hz the room becomes a dominant part of the bass monitoring problems

According to Brian's chart the fundamental of an open E on the bass is 41.25 hz.I would hope( as a bass player) that this fundamental is capable of being reproduced clearly in any recording. A lot of todays music is detuned....in that the guitars are down a half,whole, or even two whole steps from concert pitch. Combine this with the 5 and 6 string basses that are so prevalent and is there any wonder why that firm, round bass guitar sound is nowhere to be found.

Since I am not recording in anyone elses rooms who post on here, for me to sit in judgement of their qualities and frequency responses would be ludicris indeed. I use a sub. It doesnt 'firm' up the bass as much as present it in a balance kind of way. To really have that tight defined bass you will always have to have a room capable of reproducing this as well as monitors able to do so.

As to whether or not a person can or cant hear frequencies below 60 hz or so, I think this must not be a 'blanket' type of reality. I can most certainly hear the fundamental of 41.25 on my bass guitar as well as the fundamental of the low B on the 5 string ...And yes, I do have a cabinet that does reproduce these frequencies. Whether or not someone else can or cannot hear these frequencies is entirely up to them as individuals.

I'd like to remind everyone of the psychoacoustic penomenon known as the missing fundamental. It so happens that if a significant number of overtones on a given fundamental are sounded but the fundamental itself is not, the fundamental is still perceived. Many organs get their lowest notes by this method. Sub-bass enhancement processors like Waves Maxx-Bass use it as well. Also, thsi is why we are able to hear that 41Hz low E on our small speakers. Just something to think about.

David French wrote:

I'd like to remind everyone of the psychoacoustic penomenon known as the missing fundamental.

aka apparent bass, a popular EQ technique in the heyday of AM radio, when most music was heard through dashboard speakers.

I tend to hipass mixes at 30hz, 12db/octave

i will try to find where i have this written, but in a book on hifi i read it said that once it goes below 80hz we do more feeling then hearing. mostly due to our skeletal structure then anything.

frob wrote: i will try to find where i have this written, but in a book on hifi i read it said that once it goes below 80hz we do more feeling then hearing. mostly due to our skeletal structure then anything.

That actually depends on who you talk to. I've read as high as 125 being claimed.

David French wrote: I'd like to remind everyone of the psychoacoustic penomenon known as the missing fundamental.

I knew I was forgetting the P word (psychoacoustic). That's why I said "of course you have overtones...". Thanks for stating that much more clearly than I did, David.

Also, all you have to do is google for "missing fundamental" and you will find many demonstrations where they remove the fundamental from a note and it still sounds like the note, except not as well defined.

i think that this is what happens with the ns10 speaker mic trick. i was just thinking that it work like a missing fundimental microphone. creating the illustion of frequencies that arnt really there though sujestion of other frequencies.

kind of like vegetarian meat.

sorry kurt im getting prettie off topic.

Not at all ... This is exactly what I was hoping for Frob.

Keep goin' folks! Good stuff.

Some good info being put forward here! In my case, I used to think it was safe to just work with nearfields, and it wasn't until about 5 years ago that I added a sub. I have never looked back since.

You may not "hear" 20-40HZ, but with a good, accurate subwoofer, you will certainly feel it. I DO hear 40-80 HZ on my system (I upgraded to a Bag End Infrasub 12; self powered about a year ago, used various other brand-x subs before that), and I would never mix/master anything critical without it. Not something that was going out to clients or replication facilities.

Sure, if you're just tracking, having fun, or doing bargain basement demos, you can certainly get away without a sub. But don't kid yourself for a moment. You're missing an important part of the whole picture. This is part of what the "Big boys" will charge you for when it comes time to master: Adjusting and/or FIXING the lopsided bass levels is often necessary because most folks just don't have the ability to hear down there with their systems.

Nearfield monitors are great for what they do, but IMHO they do a lot of disservice without a sub going on.

Consider this: many people feel that while the limits of human hearing go up to about 17-20k depending on age and impairment, but it's just as important to capture frequencies many times that, for all kinds of reasons - many of them intangible. (Some even claim it's felt on the skin instead of the ears, not unlike the low end.) That's why mics and premaps have specs that exceed 20k. It's necessary for the whole sonic picture.

Going in the other direction, it's just as critical to know what's happening down to the limits of human hearing and feeling, esp if there's something being missed by speakers that aren't giving you the whole story.

Personally, I'd hate to miss something like a footfall, plosive, mic rumble, etc. that mars an otherwise flawless production. When I listen to commercial recordings for personal pleasure and enjoyment, it's astounding to hear what has slipped through the production cracks. It runs about 60-40 percent in terms of good vs. "Oops!". I could name names, but it's not the point here.

You can keep sonic "blinders" on if you want, and say it's "Good enough", but the fact is that cars and home theaters (where a lot of your finished products will be played) are now sporting subwoofers that can reveal your good mixes as well as your not-so-good mixes.

Would you knowingly mix with speakers that have a huge chunck of sound missing at, say.....1k to 4k? Or speakers that abruptly roll off at 10k? I think you know the answer to that.

In this world of cut-throat studio rates and everyone doing it for themselves in their bedrooms, I think it's in the best interest of everyone reading this to make sure you've got the best monitoring system you can get your hands on to give yourself and your clients the BEST, most accurate experience. Whether you 'hear" it, or "feel" it, the end result is the same. It's just as critical as the highs, and you need to manage it, period.

Ignore what's going on down there at your peril.

JoeH wrote: Some even claim it's felt on the skin instead of the ears, not unlike the low end.

That goes hand-in-hand with getting chills from someone scratching their fingernails on a chalkboard.

David French wrote: I'd like to remind everyone of the psychoacoustic penomenon known as the missing fundamental. It so happens that if a significant number of overtones on a given fundamental are sounded but the fundamental itself is not, the fundamental is still perceived. Many organs get their lowest notes by this method. Sub-bass enhancement processors like Waves Maxx-Bass use it as well. Also, thsi is why we are able to hear that 41Hz low E on our small speakers. Just something to think about.

hmmm.... i just heard a 14Hz sine wave on my headphones... no problem....

but below about 35Hz i REALLY had to turn up the volume...

i guess this rules out both the "feeling sound" and missing fundamental imo.

but i'm not in doubt than when you listen to speakers (at those frequencies) the whole body is involved.... (just as our nose is involved in the midrange.....)

Extended low bass is a good thing but only if it is accurate. Deep bass nulls and resonance's generate overtones and harmonics that muck up the mid bass ... all making matters even worse than not knowing what is going on below 40 Hz. If the room is too small, using a sub or a speakers that produce a lot of deep bass only makes things worse.

Despite what bass trap manufacturers say, no amount of bass trapping will turn a 10' by 12' room into a place where you can hear deep bass accurately ... It may improve it but it will never be accurate.

There is a limit to how much low end a small room can handle..

i dont think that you should mix the whoel thing on a sub, because while they are getting more prevelant they are still not the norm. i say that every mix should be checked on a good hifi system with a sub, but not nesesaraly mixed.

If you are going to use a sub, the crossover should be set up correctly so that you get an even response while doing a crossover sweep. This will help to make sure that what you are hearing is accurate.

I tend to get a lot of bands that tune WAY down. A is typical. THat low is is about 27hz if I'm not mistaken. It seems as if everyone that comes to my studio has two 12" subs in their car and they have to have that low bass. It's a chore to get accurate.

Dropped-A on a 5 string bass is 32.5hz, plus harmonics at 65hz, 110hz, etc. and other overtones because of the nature of the instrument. (I know enough to know that you'll get harmonics up each octave, but I don't know enough to tell you what other overtones you'll get.) Of course, you're going to have a subwoofer pushing that. A bass cab is basically that: a subwoofer cab. Of course, you have more range on the frequency response, but not much. And, in case you're wondering why some subs have a tighter bass response than others, look at the frequency response. If it can go up into higher frequecies (say 3-5k) and stay above -10db, you can safely assume that it will give you more of a punchy sound due to having less weight of the cone to move (However, everything should be subjected to a listening test.).

THeBLueROom wrote: I tend to get a lot of bands that tune WAY down. A is typical. THat low is is about 27hz if I'm not mistaken. It seems as if everyone that comes to my studio has two 12" subs in their car and they have to have that low bass. It's a chore to get accurate.

according to my chart it's 27.3Hz..... no car subs deliver that i'm sure.... in that small a room.... i think it's the missing fundamental part playing tricks here..... i think it's safe to say that you need at least a 200 litre cabinet to have a 12" go that deep.... unless you apply eq of course..... but still hard....

With all the talk about frequency, does anyone adjust what they are doing based on the key of the song? I've never really thought of it that way, but there would have to be some merit to thinking about it.

For example...if I know the song is in E major and I really wanted to accentuate certain tones - say for simplicity, the root, fourth and fifth would it make sense to make dips around the other tones to minimize the "build up" of those other tones in the harmonics?

Seems like a much more technical approach to mixing than I've ever taken. Does anyone approach mixing this way?

Unless there is something dominant about a particular tone (like pedal tones) needed in a song from a particular instrument, I don't bother with it. Besides, there is more than just the sine wave to it. You would have to include a majority of the overtones for it to really sound right.

iznogood wrote: hmmm.... i just heard a 14Hz sine wave on my headphones... no problem....

but below about 35Hz i REALLY had to turn up the volume...

Interesting. I have a pair on Sennheiser PC150s in the office and I can't hear 14Hz though them at normal listening volume and if I turn the volume up I get distortion and can hear upper harmonics from that. I can hear 22Hz though.

I experimented a little and the frequency at which the sound seems to have a definite pitch rather than just being very low is about 37.5Hz.

I'd have to experiment with speakers to find the point at which you're concious of feeling the sound but I see no reason why there shouldn't be some overlap between sound that is heard and sound that is felt.

i used sennheiser 265 linear....

they're clean and LOUD!!

(borrowed them to a hardcore drummer once.... he liked it.... they were loud as s*** .... he could hear everything although pieces of cymbals were flying around him!)

iznogood wrote: according to my chart it's 27.3Hz..... no car subs deliver that i'm sure.... in that small a room.... i think it's the missing fundamental part playing tricks here..... i think it's safe to say that you need at least a 200 litre cabinet to have a 12" go that deep.... unless you apply eq of course..... but still hard....

FWIW - High Quality Car systems can easily produce subsonics. The whole "not enough space for the wave to develop" is a myth. You hear via pressure, and that pressure exists the moment the speaker moves - no matter if you are 1" away or 50' away (well, as long as you take into account sound's speed of 1120'/sec). With a car install, you end up with around +12 to +18dB of "cabin gain" on the low end. Granted, these systems are not ruler flat down there, but 20Hz is way easier to reproduce in a car than in a large room, as the car will have less destructive interferance, and way more constructive interferance. I used to be a bass-junkie back in high-school (pretty seriously), and I probably had the lowest-tuned system in my area. 20Hz would pound your chest just as hard as a 60Hz tone would. Even now with my 10" subs in small sealed enclosures, I still enjoy 25Hz response. You just have to compensate (attenuate) the more resonant bass frequencies for your installation (around 60Hz with a 2/3 octave cut, or use fully parametric EQ's like I do), and then the really low stuff will be back in line amplitude wise. Some of these "dB Drag Racing" cars are tuned for one frequency to be as loud as possible (over 170dB these days!!!) - this is not what I'm talking about. Some of the car audio subs are completely insane - like 2000watt RMS subs!!! Yes, RMS!

Believe it or not, just because you have a woofer in your car does not mean it is a "boomin system". A sound-quality based car install is really a beautiful thing IMO. If you have not experienced one, I suggest you do. Anyway - Ramble over... Rock on!

PS - 35Hz response will make me happy on a set of studio monitors. Low enough to get most of the"Important Bass", and you usually end up with a "useable low frequency limit" at around 31Hz. The lowest of lows are missing, but for recording actual bands etc, you don't usually have much sub-35Hz energy anyway (unless you are heavy on the synths and samples).

:cool:

as the car will have less destructive interferance, and way more constructive interferance.

an all glass room the size of.... well... a car....... :roll:

The whole "not enough space for the wave to develop" is a myth.

well..... maybe..... did you ever do foh (live) work??? my experience is that you need to move a distance away to really feel sub's..... or just like the day i made things fall down i another room far from the speakers....

and some respected litterature has been written on the subject.... i just can't remeber any links..... :oops:

Yea, I was way into car audio a few years back and 20-25hz was pretty much a "must be able to produce this if you consider your system good" type of thing. Folks that come thru here always want that low A on the bass to be nice and smooth to round out the low tuned guitars. And on my chart it says 27.3hz is a low A on the bass, not 32hz. I use my subs in the studio simply as reference for the lower frequencies. I turn them off for the most part and turn them on to check certain things against commercial discs. It takes awhile to get used to mixing this way, but then again it takes awhile to get used to monitors period. I can't imagine NOT having subs in the studio now.

iznogood, have you ever had a well tuned accurate car audio system? Without a doubt, you can use every bit of the low frequencies and even point out errors in your mixing technique if you do have an accurate well tuned car audio system. I know, I built them for years for high end car audio sales and installations companies. There are car audio systems that will produce well below 20hz. Although you can't hear it, you can certainly feel it ...it can make you nauseous.

Awesome discussion everyone!

Great topic!

8-) 8) 8-)

iznogood wrote:
an all glass room the size of.... well... a car....... :roll: :

Agreed - this is not the best environment for accurate midrange and treble, but considering the interior dimension of a car's cabin is usually less than 10' max, any wave longer than 20' will easily re-enforce itself with constructive interferance. You will get a dip at some higher bass notes, but the really low stuff (~50Hz and below) will not be affected by destructive interferance from my experiences. This only adds to the gain (bass boost) a car's small interior provides.

iznogood wrote: well..... maybe..... did you ever do foh (live) work??? my experience is that you need to move a distance away to really feel sub's..... or just like the day i made things fall down i another room far from the speakers....

and some respected litterature has been written on the subject.... i just can't remeber any links..... :oops:

I can't say I have done tons of subs in a live setting, but I do know about how the bass can be louder in a venue at 50' than at 20' due to constructive/destructive interferance. What about outdoors? I have always observed that an outdoor system does not exhibit these non-linearities. You only have one reflective boundary outdoors (the ground), so the inverse square law is pretty accurate in describing low frequency propogation (in respect to amplitude drop at a given distance) with limited boundary interactions (less reflections). I do have a pretty extensive Pro-Audio background in PA systems, just not much experience with monstrously huge systems.

How is a wave different at the speaker opposed to 20' away from the speaker? It is still the same "wave", it has just spent energy moving through the air, and the energy is now dispersed over a broader area. Otherwise, it is the same waveform, correct? Is the air somehow "processing" the waveform (basically "air pressure") at a certain distance? You have a compression followed by a rarefraction no matter where you are in relation to the speaker. Once you include room interactions, this is where the wierdness happens IMO. What about porting a box? How do ports work if the waveform has not even "Developed" inside the box yet? What about tight micing a Bass Guitar Cabinet? Do you loose low-frequencies there? Its all about pressure from what I can tell, not "wave development".

I'm no expert, but I do have a long-running love-affair with low-end :) ... I'll glady absorb any input on this subject! You guys would have thought I was 110% insane if you saw my Mazda Pickup back in high school. Eight 18" subs with 7 Cu Ft each in the camper-top with ~2500 watts RMS! 20Hz was a great feeling in that truck, and the girls really seemed to like it, too! ;) . I had major cancellation issues above ~60Hz or so, but the really low stuff would tickle you to death like nothing I have heard since. This was over 13 years ago now, and I have matured, but I still like good solid low-end as long as it is accompanied by a truly good sounding system with oodles of headroom.

Speaking of Subs + Mains, I also think ANY sub should be time-aligned to the main speaker it crosses over with (Voice Coils should be on the same vertical plane, and NOT more than 1/4 wavelength [@ the x-over frequency] away from the driver it crosses over to). If the sub is slightly behind and off to the left, you will NOT be able to get a smooth turnover at the crossover frequency. I also believe in stereo subs to allow time-aligning each sub to its mating satellite. I'm also one who believes that bass IS directional to around ~50 Hz, so stereo subs make sense to me.

See, I'm a freak! :twisted:

:cool:

i can say that silverchair's freak remix (off greatest hits CD) uses 30s to 60s freqs for their fundamentals. LOOOOOOW.

theres a good bit of kicks that reside in the 50-80hz or lower spectrum.

and techno.. people do strange things with techno.

My comments about the necessity of a system equipped with a good sub woofer assume several important things:

1. A properly tuned & setup room with minimal standing waves and non parallel surfaces.

2. Flat/accurate speakers, and subs that are designed to provide uniform, even response, all the way down to 20 hz, with proper crossover points relative to the nearfields' rolloff point.

Saying there's not enough reason to use subs because most people's rooms aren't tuned properly, or the subs themselves may not be flat is just an excuse, IMHO. It's like saying you shouldn't bother to learn to play the piano because most instruments you encounter will probably be out of tune and sitting in bad-sounding halls/venues.

I think the point was accuracy at all frequencies, for all types of music. Properly setup subs will do this, as long as you're careful with the calibration and tuning.

THeBLueROom wrote: And on my chart it says 27.3hz is a low A on the bass, not 32hz.

When doing the math: for A = 27.3Hz, Concert A = 437Hz.

32.5Hz was incorrect on my part. I should've gotten some sleep before I made that post. I am sorry about that. Just to be technical though :lol: dropped A on a bass guitar tuned to Concert A = 440 is 27.5Hz.

It's common to tune Concert A anywhere from 435 to 445, 440 is just the standard.

Dropped-A on a 5 string bass is 32.5hz, plus harmonics at 65hz, 110hz, etc. and other overtones because of the nature of the instrument.

If you did the math on that, you would have also noticed that I made a pretty bad mistake. an octave above 65Hz would be 130Hz, not 110Hz. That should've raised a question in someone's mind on the calculations. That should read:

Dropped-A on a 5 string bass is 27.5hz, plus harmonics at 55hz, 110hz, etc. and other overtones because of the nature of the instrument.

I was very wrong in my calculation. You were very much more accurate, THeBLueROom.

I'm a broad-bander. I had a stereo system preamp that I changed the low frequency corner from around 2 Hz to well below 1 Hz. The bass tightened up noticeably. For certain, it had nothing to do with the amplitude response - more likely with the group delay in the bass region becoming more constant.

Remember, if every piece of gear in your chain is, say, 1 dB down at 10 Hz and you have 3-4 of them in the chain - you AREN'T getting flat amplitude response in the bottom of the spectrum nor are you getting constant group delay. The same holds true at the top end of the spectrum.

That's why I believe that gear manufacturers should design their analog stages for extended bandwidth. One bandwidth-limiting item may not be all that audible, but a chain of them will be.

i was mixing a song in reason that had a LOT of low end, yet when i played it on the main system (that has a sub probably around 40-50) nothing was showing up in the low end, even though it kicks on freak remix.

its probably better to just cover all of the freqs, you never know.