A question for all you Studio Drummers. I run a small studio and record mostly Hard Rock and Metal bands. What are the best heads to suggest for my clients for the recording sessions?
Tags
Comments
I agree with Rod. Heads to a drummer are like strings to guitar
I agree with Rod. Heads to a drummer are like strings to guitar/bass players. Musicians take their sound personally. Of course, I think it would be okay to ask that the drummer put fresh heads on before the session begins. I would hope that you wouldn't even have to ask, unless that's their sound. I know it's expensive-especially if if they have a monster kit, but it makes a difference.
A drummer uses a particular brand because (a) their favorite drummer uses them, (b) they've tried them all and like the way these sound, or (c) both. Ask the drummer what sound he's going for (recorded examples are helpful) and go from there.
Jason
it's easy to assume that drummers should know and have the right
it's easy to assume that drummers should know and have the right skins for type of music being recorded. but for some it's the last thing they realize and or know about.
i'm a drummer, to me for hard rock and metal stuff i like a 2 ply skin. ie: remo emporer or the equivilent from evans, aquarian. clears have less crack to them, less attack, coated have more crack and attack.
if i need a heavier thicker thump i use pinstipes or evans hydrolics. moon gels go along way for getting just the right amount of tone from the drum. getting the sound right to begin with makes it easier to mix for sure especially for heavier stuff.
usually we get out the gates or tape wallets to the drums to get that thump to cut down the overtones. but if you use a thicker ply skin to begin with you get less overtones and more fundamental.
for kicks i like the powerstoke 3's. for snare i'll use a coated emporer 9 times out of then. the other 2 times a coated ambassoder for brighter more ringy sounds or a coated pinstripe for a more controlled sound.
it's also important to note that you can get most drum sounds from what your drummer has there that day. but it takes time and is way easier if you have the right skins to begin with.
as well, the right style and make of a drumset will be a large factor in tone regardless of the skins. if you are using 1960 something ludwigs, the bearing edges are probably pretty round, that's the main thing that contributes to a drums tone.
so as a result the skin choice will affect the tone, but you won't get the rock tone that a more modern tama, yamaha, pearl, ayotte,ect kit will.
bearing edges that are cut fairly sharp usually give the rock tone we are looking for.
good luck
chris perra
Chris, you're very knowledgable and also a drummer - and for
Chris,
you're very knowledgable and also a drummer - and for me - that is (was?) my point.
I don't assume that a drummer should know - I state that a drummer should know.
Any good drummer should care enough about his kit - his sound - his "trade" to make it his business to know.
If he doesn't want to invest that time - then he probably won't impress me in the end as a session drummer.
Happy Hunting and thanks for a different perspective............
:p:
Rod
Thanks Chris. It's refreshing when someone actually posts useful
Thanks Chris. It's refreshing when someone actually posts useful information instead of useless rambling. I would love to have your email address for future reference. If you don't mind, you can send me an email at gmontis @ columbus.rr.com .
The drummers I have had in the studio so far are clueless. I end up tuning the kit myself most of the time. I need to make these guys sound as good as possible though, so hopefully I can attract the better musicians to the studio.
Thanks out to you also JBuntz.
as an engineer and a drum fanatic but not a drummer, i would nev
as an engineer and a drum fanatic but not a drummer, i would never assume to tell a person their craft. i will sit in the room with him and listen to the kit, then place my mics and go into the control room and re-create that sound on the board. in most instances this approach works fine. if i'm dealing with an inexperienced drummer then i will give a few helpful suggestions but always let him/her make the final determination. drum sounds are my specialty and to me the very foundation of any good recording.
Peace to all you drummers and this is in no way meant to reflect
Peace to all you drummers and this is in no way meant to reflect on the many very professional players out there.
As an engineer, I find for the most part, that drummers, even the most meticulous, do not consider the 'little' things in recording their kit.Are the lugs all tight? Have they been 'treated' ie. cotton balls inside or a spray foam works too...? Are the heads fairly new? Do they have a selection of snares with different tonalities? Does the pedal sqeak? Does the drummer understand tuning to eliminate overtones and tuning to eliminate sympathetic tones in the other drums? Is the drummer willing to be flexible in their setup? By this I mean, how many drums are going to be used on a particular song and do you need all of em?
Theres a vast difference between a live gig and a studio session.I had a band in with a drummer that had a 14 piece set.And he swore he'd use it all.So, at their expense, and my ears, I spent 6 hours tuning and getting the set 'right'...They cut their first 3 songs and in listening back, I noticed that there were 8 tom and cymbals that were not ever used.But they were there adding to the noise floor.I pointed this out and it offended the guy something awful.So it all stayed.and so did the noise floor....small though it was it still added.We later cut the same 3 tracks with the guitarist who wrote the songs.We used a friend of mine who's a studio drummer.He played basically the same beats only on a well-tuned and prepped 4 piece kit.The drums were huge and there was never a noise factor.
oh yeah....when we had a real studio with a real studio drum set, we kept several sets of heads around.And two different snares. I always liked the Evans Hydraulics for rock, the Pinstripes for lighter rock and country,the coated ambassadors for everything else.Right now I'm enamourd with the Evens Gennera Dry head for the snare.
I agree that the drummer should know what heads to use. However,
I agree that the drummer should know what heads to use. However, most of the well known drummers state that they use different heads for playing live than in the studio. If a drummer is quite good but has not had much studio experience, a good engineer can go a long way in offering advice as to heads, tuning, etc. I learned more from engineers then I did from other drummers about how to get a good studio sound. After reading more than 2 decades of Modern Drummer interviews, it appears that more studio players use coated ambassadors than any other. My personal favorite is coated emperors on the tom batter heads with clear ambassador bottoms - powerstroke 3 on the kick and either a coated ambassador or emperor on the snare.
drbam
rod, my comments were not meant to slight you're opinions, a
rod,
my comments were not meant to slight you're opinions, at all.
i agree that in a perfect world i wouldn't hire a drummer that didn't know his kit , or how to tune them for the style we are recording.
but the reality is that most drummers don't think about tone, it's somebody else's problem. "i'm worried about my flamawhama lick in the outro." it's the engineers responsibility.
i think tripnet is in this kind of situation, or it wouldn't have come up.
a great video to research construction, head selection, and tuning of drums. is "drum tuning" by bob gatzen. it's a dci release. he covers everything.
chris perra
Originally posted by chrisperra: rod,my comments were not mean
Originally posted by chrisperra:
rod,my comments were not meant to slight you're opinions, at all.
Chris,
I was not offended nor felt slighted in the least.
I actually backed off because i learned something here.
I still maintain that i am a drummer who has spent his life learning his trade - but as you and others showed me - i am still not too damn old to learn - and if i act like i know everything about anything - that mindset will take away my ability to do just that - learn.
I accept that the "boys" in the room on that board understand more about "sound" than i do - so i suppose if my friend handling that came to me and wanted me to tweak something so there was not a conflict - i would be a moron to say no.
Now i happen to pride myself on being a lot of things.......... but a moron isn't one of them..... :D :D :D
So still i stand - corrected and humbled because of it.........
With admiration,
Rod
For heavy rock and heavy metal,then yes, pinstripes on all of th
For heavy rock and heavy metal,then yes, pinstripes on all of the toms. Coated Remo Ambassador on the snare (almost always for every kind of music) For the kick drum, I've recently started using the Evans EMAD with external dampening because you don't need any further dampening and you'll get the resonance of the kick drum shell more.A sound engineer complained that he could hear a slight vibration from the dampening ring, but it never shows up on recording. I'm sold on this head.
For playing jazz, I usually use(tho see below) coated Ambassadors on all of my drums. I will occassionally use rings or moongels to dampen the ringy sound when tuning alone doesn't do it, but I'll often add the gels to the resonator head. (this allows the batter head to move and it cuts down on the sympathetic ringing). I almost always tune the resonator head on the kick a full step lower although the resonators on my snares and toms are always exactly the same (and to a specific note).
I'm also one of those weird drummers that actually likes and prefers the Remo Fibreskins on my toms (2 rack, 2 floor) because it imparts a much warmer tone to the fills and solos when I'm playing a West African influenced pattern. It gives a nice round warm tone for jazz and blues too. Different strokes......
-Jeff
bring on the ring.....i love wide open drums!!!!! i have a prof
bring on the ring.....i love wide open drums!!!!!
i have a professional tuner come in before sessions to make sure the drums are tuned and ready to go. it's a small fee and saves me and the clients lot's of time. the drummer is usually very receptive to this, just like have the piano tuned before a session. a lot of drummers say they know how to tune a kit, but in reality it's not the case. i don't use dampers, cotton, paper towels or tape....i like the drums to ring out. that's just me, but in 20 years, i've never had any complaints :)
When my band went in, our drumer had fyberskins on the bottom to
When my band went in, our drumer had fyberskins on the bottom tom heads and his front kick head. The engineer fought over drum sounds for about a day and a half because our drummer didn't trust his judgement. Apparently he said that fyberskins are "the worst heads ever"
i don't know if i would put any batter head on the bottom, usual
i don't know if i would put any batter head on the bottom, usually i'll have clear ambassodors on toms and kick bottoms and a diplomat or designated "snare" head for the snare bottom.
i'm sure that your drummers particular configuration had a unique sound though.
did he end up with some of that setup recorded?
chris perra
Really it depends on the kind of sound you're after. The Fybersk
Really it depends on the kind of sound you're after. The Fyberskins may have been all wrong for your music. I can't imagine ever using them on the resonator side of toms. They're too thick and will give a dead sound. I prefer thinner clears on the bottoms of my toms, they react better. I also wouldn't use them for kick. For recording I always want a 1 ply for the kick.
I keep different kits and a whole lot of different types of heads for different sound. I personally prefer
the sound of Fyberskins because they model calf-skin heads for that "dunnun/sangba" sound that I'm after. But I don't always use them. And I only use them for the batter side of my rack and floor toms. I just like them.
I am a drummer - and will tell you - i work with my sound - and
I am a drummer - and will tell you - i work with my sound - and want you to record em just the way they sound. I worked my butt of to get this sound and it works for me.
I would not be real receptive to your suggesting i install particular heads on my cans just so you could record me......
Don't want ya telling my girl what colour panties to wear either...... :D :D :D :D
Keep smiling and have a great day.....
Rod
Originally posted by Rod Gervais: I am a drummer - and will te
Originally posted by Rod Gervais:
I am a drummer - and will tell you - i work with my sound - and want you to record em just the way they sound. I worked my butt of to get this sound and it works for me.I would not be real receptive to your suggesting i install particular heads on my cans just so you could record me......
Rod
At the risk of starting a flame with my good friend Rod…, :D as a producer, I would not use a drummer on a second session if they were not receptive to my suggestions on the first session.
I have seen numerous drummers come in and say exactly what Rod just said. "I work with my sound - and want you to record em just the way they sound. I worked my butt of to get this sound and it works for me", But when you mic them up, their drums sound like sh*t.. Drummers are notorious for liking obnoxious sounding drums just because they stand out more in a mix. A perfect example of this is the new Metallica Album.. It is a self produced record and listen to the snare.. it SUCKS! IMO, Lars had his head up his butt on that.. Where's Bob Rock when you need him? He world not have let that POINK! snare tone on the record..
A sound may work fine for a drummer in a live or practice situation but mics hear sounds different than the human ear hears them and when recording, you should modify a sound at the source when ever possible.
My favorite heads for recording are Remo frosted ambassador on the snare and pin stripes on the toms and kick ... I also use dead ringers on both heads on the kick.
--------------------------------------
Nope never used it! Never heard it! I don't know nothin' about it.. It could be the best thing since sliced bacon! (really!) :D
Kurt, Tis impossible to start a flame with me my friend......
Kurt,
Tis impossible to start a flame with me my friend........
Actually - this thread is running in 2 places - and you need to go to the 2nd one to see my earlier apology for being wro.....wroo..wrrroonnn........wrong (see i got it out ) :D :D :D
I forgot about this post till i saw your name and mine together.
Rod
Maybe someone can fuse these 2 threads back into one.
Originally posted by Kurt Foster: At the risk of starting a fl
Originally posted by Kurt Foster:
At the risk of starting a flame with my good friend Rod…, :D as a producer, I would not use a drummer on a second session if they were not receptive to my suggestions on the first session.
I guess the key word is "producer"... most of the time i'm the engineer, not the producer.
That being the case, i feel free to suggest whatever I want to the drummer, with the understanding that he's perfectly free to ignore my suggestions.
Originally posted by littledog, jr.: I guess the key word is "
Originally posted by littledog, jr.:
I guess the key word is "producer"... most of the time i'm the engineer, not the producer.That being the case, i feel free to suggest whatever I want to the drummer, with the understanding that he's perfectly free to ignore my suggestions.
Yeah, If you are not hiring the players, then what I said doesn't apply.. but I have and bands in before whose drums sucked.. and I would do all I could to talk them into using my studio kit. I was usually successful as my kit was a lot nicer that what their drummers would have, most of the time.. Even when you are "just the engineer' at the end of the project, if it sucks, the blame will fall on you 9 out of 10 times. In situations when there is no producer, the duty usually falls on the recording engineer, like it or not..
--------------------------------------
Nope never used it! Never heard it! I don't know nothin' about it.. It could be the best thing since sliced bacon! (really!) :D
Kurt I also would not like to start a flame, because I have a l
Kurt
I also would not like to start a flame, because I have a lot of respect for you, but I think the snare sound on Metallica's new album is pretty cool. In fact, St. Anger, #9 (Don't know the name), and the snare sound are about the only things I DO like about the album. Otherwise, I find it kinda stays in one gear. And I could be considered a pretty hard-core Metallica fan. Do you think the snare actually sounded that way, or did they boost the "bad" frequency?
Andy
Oh yeah! The question was about drum heads! Right? For a real
Oh yeah! The question was about drum heads! Right?
For a really fat, deep tone, I like the remo pinstripe heads. I always use emporer clear for a resonant head.
For a more alive, but tonally warm drum, I like to use remo ambassoder coated on top.
If I'm playing funk, or fusion, I prefer to use ambassader or emporer clear, depending on how brash I want the kit to sound.
I would have to agree with kurt however, in that if I HIRED a drummer to do a job, he would give me the sound I asked for or he would not be re-hired.
If I was producing a band, and just knew that the drummer would be too pissed off to work with after his sound was changed, I would just use samples at mix down. He could be mad at me after the cd's finished.
With a band that self produces, and hires me for an engineer, I always offer my studio kit, and tell them that bringing their own kit costs more money, since mine is always set up. I also tell them that since drums are crucial to the sound of a cd, if they take that into their own hands I won't be responsible for how they sound. That comment usually strikes fear into the hearts of indy bands! :D
Ahh, so much to address here.. in chronological order.. Ori
Ahh, so much to address here.. in chronological order..
Originally posted by Downflow “I think the snare sound on Metallica's new album is pretty cool. In fact, St. Anger, #9 (Don't know the name), and the snare sound are about the only things I DO like about the album. Otherwise, I find it kinda stays in one gear. And I could be considered a pretty hard-core Metallica fan. Do you think the snare actually sounded that way, or did they boost the "bad" frequency?”
Yes, Treena pointed out to me as I was making that post that a lot of people seem to like that sound… I don’t. I find absolutely nothing attractive in it. It masks vocals and guitars and is generally irritating. But to each his own.
Originally posted by Steve Metcalf That was the snare on metallica's new record? I though there was a guy in the background yelling poink, and boooiiing, every time lars hit the snare!!!!
Arr-Arr-Arr-chortle snarf! That’s funny!
Also originally posted by Steve Metcalf I always offer my studio kit, and tell them that bringing their own kit costs more money, since mine is always set up. I also tell them that since drums are crucial to the sound of a cd, if they take that into their own hands I won't be responsible for how they sound. That comment usually strikes fear into the hearts of indy bands!
Words of wisdom, little pearls! Hey kids! That’s the way to do it!
Originally posted by littledog jr I guess you can get away with that more easily with pop music.
But if you do a lot of jazz, try telling the drummer with forty year old Gretsch or Ludwigs that he better play your DW set or he won't sound as good!!!
If the kit sounds like sh*t you bet I would… And if they don’t like it they can get the f%&k out! I would rather piss some drummer off than have a crap recording circulating with my name on it! Fortunately, most jazzers with a nice kit like that know how to tune them and they usually sound pretty good. Actually, jazz is the easiest to record for drums. In jazz, the drum tones are pretty natural sounding. In pop and rock, kick drum tones usually have nothing to do with what a real kick drum sounds like and the rest of the kit is usually pretty hyped sounding also..
--------------------------------------
Nope never used it! Never heard it! I don't know nothin' about it.. It could be the best thing since sliced bacon! (really!) :D
Well guys - if i was being hired to do studio work - i would pla
Well guys - if i was being hired to do studio work - i would play whatever you wanted me to play - to acheive the sound you were looking for.
You would - however - have to wait while i set it up to work for me - i play a real REAL tight kit....(tight as in close to my body)
If however - i was recording my band - i would have to play mine - set up only what i needed for each song (i too do not like the extra noise that carries from the other drums in a recording session)
So my short kit to start - and remove the ones i don't play for our latin stuff...... record them second -
but i will tell you - i am not the best drummer n the world (far from it in fact) but i DO know how to tune a kit - tune before every practice - take a lot of pain to make certain my kit is perfect - and have spent tons of money to get what i need for each sound i want...... so no matter what you charge me to use my kit - tis my kit i use for my band -
and steve buddy - when it's done it will sound great - and you won't have to screw around to make that happen............ ;)
Rod
Originally posted by Kurt Foster: In pop and rock, kick drum to
Originally posted by Kurt Foster:
In pop and rock, kick drum tones usually have nothing to do with what a real kick drum sounds like and the rest of the kit is usually pretty hyped sounding also..
I find this kinda sad, in a way, as I have always loved the natural sound of a well-made and well-tuned drum set. For my own music (which I may finally be able to start producing next decade :c:
I'm not an expert, but my drummer/engineer friend swears by Remo
I'm not an expert, but my drummer/engineer friend swears by Remo coated Ambassadors for toms and snare for most stuff. I forget what he said was his favorite Kick Drum head. He mentioned the Powerstroke? maybe? Either way, the thinner heads usually record better. You may want to keep some Moon Gel handy but be careful not to over do it. Use less than you think you need and only use it after you've tuned them the best you can.