The Dynaudios are an excellent brand. Very well respected. KRK and Haffler are less expensive alternitives to the Dynaudios. If you can find a used pair of Yamaha NS 10's you can't go wrong with those either. Any of those speakers will serve you very well
.....Fats :w:

Go to your local hi-fi store and look into a pair of Paradigm mini-monitors or Reference Studio/20's... then at least you'll get to hear them 1st. The stereo image on these is very *excelent* and they sound excellent and are relatively flat.

I too mix on Paradigm Mini Monitors. I like them a lot, they are great for the price, sound great and pretty honest. BUT I find it difficult to get the midrange, particularly upper midrange right with them. I have become convinced that this is what distinguishes good monitors from "flat sounding" hifi speakers, like the Paradigms. A friend has KRK V8s, which I don't like listening to, and which seem to my ears to somehow mis-shape the sound in favor of the midrange. But the key is, you can really hear the midrange very clearly. That's what many people say when they praise NS-10s, that they're very detailed in the midrange. When I shop for better monitors to replace my Paradigms, this is what I'll be looking for.

Yes Sir! You are correct!......... and Harrumph! Ugly factor! That's what MONITORS should sound like! The ugly truth....not all dolled up in a dress, dancing around for Bubba! That is exactly what makes NS 10's s widely accepted. Thousands of engineers rely on them daily but I can hardly imagine them going home to a pair. No way, at home they listen to the Paradigms....I do! The KRK V8's are an excellent choice also. I really like KRK speakers and I find them very reliable for making critical decisions. .......... Fats
:tu:

Somewhere Between The Desert and The Left Coast

Ahhhaa I get it.. Refugee from Area 51!!!

Just Kidding fats, we love ya!!!

(hope you are having a humorus day, I am! I just did precision machinework all day at the office for a bunch of 10K POTS. Damn they look good..perhaps I may need to take a picture of them..all 15 of them..I got my holes within 12000ths. Had to cut all the shafts too!!!, then cutting the homes for 1/16 allen set screws...like a damn watchmaker)

I get joy from doing precision machinework (just like SP does)...Bill, all covered with Machine tool cutting oil.....

Bill,
It's like this;

:D

roland rsm 90's or ds 90's are decent. they are sort of like the genelecs.

not as good though, the imaging and stereo placement is better on the genelecs but the rolands are pretty good for the money. especially the unpowered ones.

roland is worldwide so pricing and service should be ok.
if you can afford it get the dynaudios though.

chris perra

Yes,I listened the NS 10 latelly and hated them...I fell pity for all those engineers/producers who used them for decades...The Dynaudio BM 6 are my favorites at this level,but sooo expensive,even the Genelecs 1030APM are cheaper here...I dont like the Rolands either... But I know I`ll have to spend all this money someday...Maybe I`d better wait for some new stuff at the Frankfurt`s MuzikMesse...
Thanks for the posts.
Ciao.
Baiano.

I'm pretty much in the same position and I was kind of hoping to like the Tannoy reveals, but I didn't. So far the only monitors I have listened to that i could see myself living with for a number of years is the Dynaudios. I have only listened to the bm15a (and not the bm6), but they are mighty fine! I really don't want to spend that much, but as it looks I'm gonna have to. The search continues...

I listened the NS 10 lately and hated them...I fell pity for all those engineers/producers who used them for decades...

Thanks anyway but I don't need your pity! I have recorded records that are available at Tower / Virgin and Amazon.com the world wide. I'm not rich but I'm happy!!!
I don't know how many times I have to say this but,.... NS 10 aren't supposed to sound good! They are supposed to sound accurate!. You can take a pig and put lipstick and a wig on it and it may even look pretty good but it's still a pig!. The "pig" in this case (metaphorically speaking) is your production. "Putting lipstick on it" is running the sound through a pair of "good sounding" speakers. Run it through a set of NS10s and you will see (hear) it as it truely is....a "pig". Make it sound good on an honest system and all of a sudden you don't have a "pig" anymore ...... and it will "travel" well. ...... Fats

"NS 10 aren't supposed to sound good! They are supposed to sound accurate!." -

Aw, cmon Fats - "ACCURATE"? I've NEVER heard anybody claim that! I've listened to stuff on NS-10's and ran away screaming.

I know literally 1000's of records have been made using NS-10's, even though most people use "real" speakers also, to check the freq's the NS-10's don't reproduce, but it can't be because the NS-10's are "accurate" - When I've listened to them, all I heard was hyped mids, no bass, and OK top end.

Granted, I've not personally mixed anything on them, but from the listening I've done I would think that the reason so many successful records have been mixed on them is that they DO hype the mids, and as such they would clue you in to the fact that you have too many things fighting for the midrange band, and with that mid-hype of the NS-10s, you would REALLY notice the crowding.

Also, in today's market, even if I WERE to suddenly decide I couldn't live without NS-10s that would only make me MORE afraid. The word I get is that there are mostly roached out NS-10's out there for sale, that have either been blown or at least abused, and that sound wrong even for NS-10's - Where do you go for parts, when the item has been dropped by the manufacturer?

What I use for a quick "confidence check", after mixing on KRK's with a 24 dB/octave crossed Yamaha sub, is a Sony cassette boombox that has "CD" inputs on RCA's. That tells me whether I should even bother to get off my ass and take a CD to the living room or car, or to keep working on it...

I can see calling the NS-10's an "industry standard", since you can't find a picture of a serious console/studio without seeing a pair sitting somewhere close, and I realize that they expose mid-range warts well - but I sure wouldn't call them "accurate" without limiting that to sounds above about 120 hZ or so...

There, did I successfully start a new war yet? Never let it be said that I pick on SMALL groups, (hehehe) Steve

Well they are... down to about 80 Hz. Very flat in comparison to most other small monitors. The bass and treble aren't all hyped up. That's what makes them great. I like the KRK's too and when it's time to replace my NS 10's that's most likely what I'll get... but my last post was in response to the "pity" remark.... yeah he feels pity for engineers in all the major studios...yeah, right! Fats

Yeah, agreed on both counts - KRK's rock, and I too really "pity" all those poor bastards that hafta do exactly what they want in their good-paying day jobs...

Myself, I've always been the guy designing, repairing, modifying or setting up the gear - now, I've finally gotten nearly to the point of having everything I need to be able to do my OWN thing, and DAMN it feels good... Steve

Knightfly posted: (speaking about NS 10's)

Granted, I've not personally mixed anything on them, but from the listening I've done I would think that the reason so many successful records have been mixed on them is that they DO hype the mids, and as such they would clue you in to the fact that you have too many things fighting for the midrange band, and with that mid-hype of the NS-10s, you would REALLY notice the crowding.

Steve,
NS 10's don't hype the mids, so much as not hyping the bass and treble. The thing I notice about NS 10's is you can really tell when the low mids, 200 to 500 Hz., are "loading up" in your mix. I just made a rough mix of the first 16 tracks I've recorded in my new DAW system. I burned off a quick reference CDR to take to a friend so he could listen to it and come up with some jazzy guitar fills for the verses. He will come over to my place and record the parts tomorrow...He popped the CDR into his boom box and the mix was perfect! His family were all oohing and ahhing about how good it sounded! I didn't have to make any excuses for it "being a rough mix". First try....how many can say that? I mix mostly on the NS 10's with checks for extended lows and highs on my Tannoy DMT 12's...a quick check on the Auratones tells me how it will sound in a car or boom box. I couldn't do it without all 3 sets of monitors but if I didn't have the NS10's ugly factor, it would just be so much more guess work, poke and hope until I found something that was acceptable. Steve, I swear, if you would try NS 10's for a month, you would never go back to girls.....ha ha ha ha! ....... Fats

"Steve, I swear, if you would try NS 10's for a month, you would never go back to girls.....ha ha ha ha! ....... Fats " -

Soooo, Fats, are you using the woofs or the tweets as a girl replacement? 'cause if you're using the woofs, I'm definitely outa my league :=)

Seriously, if it weren't for the obsolete/questionable quality factor on used NS-10's and replacement parts, I would most likely buy a pair, if nothing else to add to the choice factor. Right now I have a small set of JBL's, Tannoy PBM 6.5's (I absolutely HATE titanium tweeters) and KRK K-ROK's (5, 3 shielded), a twin 8" Yamaha sub and a Hafler 10" 200 W sub - oh, and the Sony boombox I mentioned earlier - thinking about those Yamaha sets with the MSP-5's and dual 8 sub to use at the keyboard station, but need to budget for two new computers, 4 19" flatscreens and an interface that will work best between my DM-24 and Samplitude/Sonar (both of which need upgraded), plus want at least 4 more channels of quality pre's and a few dozen more mics, so more speakers will have to wait their turn.

Too bad Bill Gates doesn't feel the need to adopt a couple of "older sons", or we'd both have it made, huh? Signed, EFCOF (you have to ask if you wanna know...)

Steve,
I'm sure there's some NOS NS 10's somewhere...probably cost a fourtune! I'll venture a guess and say due to popular demand Yamaha will re issue NS 10's in the not too distant future...at a significantly higher price...like $500 each rather than the $300 a pair they were selling for a short while ago....the girls thing was in ref to your mix's will get you a "chubby"...... Fats:D

Fats, the NS10 has a 7dB peak at 1500hz, not exactly flat :)

http://www.dillonacoustics.com/Loudspeaker_plans/Yamaha/Yamaha_XOYA1.htm

I love my NS10's although I hate their sound. But the point is, when it sounds decent on NS10's, it will sound better on almost any speaker :D

Hi everybody.
Yes I am sorry for all those bastards who spent half their adult lives listening to the NS 10...Like I feel pity for all those keyboard player who in the "old days" had to carry their Fender Rhodes around to play gigs...I am happy that I am a beginner and just started messing with recording in the DAW era,so I never messed with analog (my first compressor is a plug-in...),we might be at the pre-history of computer recording and we are all a sort of pioneers...
You producers/engineers with Tower Records/Amazon CD`s have just missed a thing: This is a beginners thread and we beginners usually will have budget for only a near field set,every pro studio that has a NS 10 in it has also subwoofers and a extra set of larger monitors....but we beginners can only afford a good/versatile near field set (nothing to do with the NS 10),for us beginners a NS 10 set can be as good as a trap for fishing lobster...I plan to buy a "good/versatile" monitor and still use my hifi monitors as an extra reference...now if we can go back to those Genelecs 1030 APM,Dynaudio BM-6,Mackie,Event and so on...
Thanks and dont be sorry for my ignorance...
Baiano

"It`s raining a lot these days here in Lisbon-Portugal"

Baiano

I listen every day to those crappy NS10 monitors, not for mixing, just comparing, and I can tell you if the vocals are in balance with the music on NS10, it will translate good on any decent hi fi speaker.
If the guitars are to loud on NS10, they are really to loud. So the NS10 is a speaker that sound like a wet morningpaper, but at least you can trust them, and that's why they have gotten so popular.
The only problem are the lows under 80 hz, but put up the volume and you will see the white cones moving like hell! :D
I have had them all, the small Tannoy's, Genelecs, KRK's, Alesis M1 and more of these babies, but I still trust the NS10.

I hope you will have the opportunity someday to record something with really good gear like Neumann tube into a great pre and hi end converters or a 2" 16 track. From there to a hi end console like 9098i or a really good digital console. And then listen to your monitors again!

I hope you will get there!!! :w:

Peace, Han

Baiano wrote:

You ... have just missed (one) thing: This is a beginners thread and we beginners usually will have budget for only (one) near field set, every pro studio that has a NS 10's in it has also subwoofers and a extra set of larger monitors....but we beginners can only afford a good/versatile near field set (nothing to do with the NS 10)

Alo Baiano,
I realize this is a beginners thread...that is exactly why I'm stressing the use of good monitors. If you read this and the other tread re: monitors you will see I have constantly said there are other good monitors out there. I have also acknowledged that since NS 10's are no longer in production, we need to start looking for alternatives. What I am repeatedly addressing is the notion that NS 10's are: fatiguing, sound crappy and all the other misconceptions. If a mix is good, it sounds good on NS 10's. If there is too much low mids in a mix, NS 10's sound bad...it's the mix, not the speakers. Most of the pros I know mix on NS 10's and switch to larger speakers to check for highs and lows and then to a set of AURATONES to see how it sounds on cheap speakers (boom box). I am painfully aware that budget is a concern to home recordists, if you look at all the other threads in the Forum I have contributed to you will notice a common theme from me is how to spend your audio dollar wisely...I don't think buying a new set of monitors every year is a particularly wise investment. If you go and buy a cheap set of speakers like Yorkville's or Samson's your just going to want something better almost immediately. Get something that will last and that you will be happy with for a long time, spend your money once. If you can find some NOS NS 10's or a used set in good condition grab them… I too resisted getting NS 10's initially for the same reasons everyone else has sited here, I didn't care for how they sounded. I was operating under the misconception that my studio monitors should sound great! But studio monitors shouldn't sound great under some conditions…like when your mix sucks! NS 10's just tell the truth, a "Just the facts" kind of speaker …… Fats

(Dead Link Removed)

Thanks Fats.
I would not mind having a set of NS 10 around, my point is that it would be the only set of monitors I could afford for quite a while,I had the NS 10 with me for a week ,a friend was trying to sell them (six years old NS 10`s) plus amp for about 400 bucks,I almost bought it,but as I mentioned before I need a all- in -one near field set of monitors,I cannot afford having subs and extra monitors ,in fact having a pair of Genelecs 1030APM or Dynaudios at home would be a luxury ... I dont mind spending those over 1.500 bucks to have gear that will last with me for a long time,they would not only be my main but my only set or monitors for quite a while so we are talking of tough choices for a beginners budget...

"I not buying this bike and than selling it later to buy a better r one..."

Baiano

Thanks Bill.
I think this monitor thing is a BIG thing,I wish I could be so certain about the monitors as I was when I bought my 733 G4 and also when I bought my Tascam US-428,I am very happy with both so I kind of lucky for now.Little by little I am taking care of my room acoustics too,only my hi-fi monitors make me mad...I am sticking with my Rhode NT 1 and my Behringer Ultragain Pro ,I am more interested in learning how to use them right than buying the latest/expensiver gear (this is a home studio for God`s sake!!!!),in fact I am very happy with my gear and I dont plan to buy anything more for quite a long while, the only thing I am really missing here is a good/decent near field monitors set ....

"It keeps raining here in Lisbon..."

Hi Amigos.

I friend is trying to sell me a pair of used Mackies HD 864 but another one just told me not to buy them because they ad too much color in the mix.
I hate the Genelec`s 1030 A sound but he says you are supposed to have a Monitor that will not always "sound good",He had a couple of KVK and he loved the sound of it (me too) but when he would hear what he did later in a HIFI System or in his car his mixes would sound like shit...so I think for now he talked me into buying the Genelecs.

Yes Fats I think I`ve got finally your message now,thanks.(The "sound good" factor...)

Am I in the right patch here?????
Thanks for the posts.
Baiano.

"The weather in Lisbon-Portugal is very cold and moist now"

The Genelecs are very forward in the highs... good speakes but bright. I am leaning towards Dynaudios for replacments of NS 10's..... Fats

I was shopping for budget monitors during september and my choice was beween the Behringers and Alesis M1 active. I've had a pair of KRK K-Roks for six years and although they sound good to my ear I've never been satisfied with anything I've mixed on these.

Buying the M1's suddenly made it clear that the frequency response of the K-Roks did not fit me. The M1's are quite dull and you really have to work to make them sound good, whereas the K-Roks sounded good automatically.

I've listened a lot to the Genelec 1030A and 1031A as well the "dreaded" NS-10, at school, and find these (especially the 1031A) to be good in aquiring a well balanced and good sounding mix, but the cheap M1's impressed me although they don't sound "good".

This was my mistake, in hindsight, wanting monitors that sounded good in stead of buying monitors that would make my mixes come out good.

Just a story from the amateur world,
/Henrik

Let me say first that I have never heard the Alesis or Behringer speakers except at Guitar Center.... I have heard KRK's stuff but never the K ROKS... I have been very impressed with the KRK V6's, V8's, V88's and 9000's. I just don't even think any speaker made by Alesis or Behringer to be worthy of any serious consideration. These products are designed to a price point, meaning, the first thing the manufacturer decides is how much they will sell for . By doing that they have already decided to compromise on design, construction and components. I keep saying this and I will continue to do so. You can cheap out on everything else in your studio excepting mics, speakers, power amps and front end gear. Your monitoring chain and your front end make all the difference. These are the items that convert the audio from sound waves to electronic signals. There's a reason that certain pieces of gear are studio standards. The rest of this stuff is just made for hobbyists who make music that never sees the light of day... I can assure you that if Alesis or Behringer speakers were ever used to record or mix a successful record, we would be hearing about it from the said manufactures. If your getting good results with what you have that is great. I must advise the rest of the readers out there however to go for the standards. Check "The List" I posted previously on this thread. In my not so humble opinion, those are the speaker manufactures you should be considering. If anyone else has a speaker that they feel should be on "The List" please submit it for consideration. ........ Fats

I just bought a pair of new NS-10's (you can still find new NS10's here) and I can't wait to start mixing with them, if you use a nice power amp like a hafler i think they are all right...

if you use a nice power amp like a hafler i think they are all right...

try a Bryston amp if you can. :)

cheers
john

Congratulations on your purchase! Regarding power amps I would say Hafflers are the very least I would use. They are good amps (I have 3) but I would consider them at the bottom of the food chain. Like John said, Bryston is a good amp. There are lots of good amps about there. Look for a used Crown DC 300 (but not the newer ones like the Macro Tech line). Hot House also makes good stuff. Good start! ………… Fats
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It's my opinion, I'll play with it if I want to!

Here's a great article comparing most of the well know near field monitors (powered)...

http://www.prorec.com/prorec/articles.nsf/3fbdd95be86013f1862567f30025b305/0b7fa7e
d3205d3c86256ae100044f41?OpenDocument

When I first started digital recording several years ago, I borrowed a friends NS10's and I was very dissapointed by the lack of detail and other things. Then, when I listened on good head phones, I heard a lot of what was missing. I finally ended up with Mackie HR824's which are absolutely incredible, as you will read in the article.

[ December 24, 2002, 10:02 PM: Message edited by: Cedar Flat Fats ]

yeah I know bryston are just killer amps but I'm cheap ;) , hey I have the mackies too and I
like them a lot but I'm glad i'm back with the NS10's, I owned a pair of genelecs too but I got
rid of them, every time i thought i had a nice mix and then listened thru a friend's NS10's I
would go "UGH it sounds awful"! and then have to go back and make corrections....

[ December 24, 2002, 09:53 PM: Message edited by: Cedar Flat Fats ]

Alo Amigos.

Thanks for the replies,I just want to share with you guys a little experience I had.
I have always had a pair of Behringers as the lowest buying possibility,in fact I almost bought a pair in the Net... Luckly before that I went to some friend`s store to check on them,I was more than disapointed with the boxes!!!!
In fact they look rock-solid,big and they are heavy ,I listened to my test CD -Madonna`s "Like a Prayer" ,I just dig those synth Bass lines...It sounded like shit on the Behringers,what I mean is that it sounded "too good" with loads of high almost no medium and very weak bass (a bit like a loudness hi-fi system without the bass response...),we pulled all those knobs and buttons in the box`s rear we made sure we`d supress the highs but it just made things worse...From my point of view the highs are just killing this box...It seems that I`ll have to save all this money to buy a decent near field set...

Baiano.

I wish you friends a Happy New Year or as we say in Portuguese ,FELIZ ANO NOVO.

FATS!

DC-300?

Holy Mother of God.

You said that?

I just inherited a DC-300A (like the old school only silver front) and I remember how fantastically smooth they sounded in the 70's on Klipschorns playing dark side of the moon on 1/4" at 7 1/2.

With my NS1000M's, I am scared to connect it to them unless I have a 1 Amp quick acting fuse per channel.
I have also been told "they pass DC like and old woman passes gas"

You really think it is safe?

I have a Theta digital

Theta site

That is employed right now. Sounds like fast smooth tubes really and rock solid to below 20hZ bottom.

It is a review sample and I need to return it for CES. Been a hell of an amp.

I am scared.

Really scared.

What is your thoughts to connecting this old bastard to my most delicately calibrated speakers?

Remember how it actually sounds? I actually forgot the extrapolation in brain waves of the thought of hooking it to NS1000M's...

It may bite my head off or I may fall in love..one or the other I suppose. Could not be worse than a Phase Linear 700B ja?

Shaking in my boots thinking of it.

Really, how do you think it will sound?

I will do it and report back, only after a resistive load is used with it for 72 hrs and a wavefore path is directed to the save button to see later (lol)

It could......well......

We will see I guess (scared)

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Earthworks Sigma 6.2s. Killer clean, accurate, time aligned little boxes with real bass. Pair them with something like a PS Audio HCA-2 or Bryston and they image like a MF. Every wart revealed in all it's sonic splendor yet oh so musical. Custom drivers from Vifa with tweeter response out past 40k. My Genelec 1030a are just gathering dust now along with our NS10s (which I can't listen to for an entire day without becoming VERY antisocial).

I love doing business with Earthworks, great folks!

ps. the DC-300 makes a great boat anchor!

I agree about the boat anchor concept.

The things were work horses for years and years and It may surprise me when I finally do hook it up. Until I actually listen to it on this system (I seriously have much finer amplifiers) it is anyones guess.

I expect it to have a woody bass, shrill mids and a rolled off high end. That is what I expect. Once I do connect it, it will be meaningful to see where this old dog actually fits in the audio food chain. I was surprised when I connected my Old McIntosh MC2105 to see how it sounds after all these years. It runs fairly high up the ladder, surprisingly so. I always thought it to be "politefully dynamic with a lot of bass bloom" but that was not the case at all. On this system it was close to as good as anything I have had and absolutely made the Adcoms' sound like childs toys. The adcom amplifiers were colored in comparison with a lot of 130 and a bite at 4K and highs that were blurry by comparason. It played at you, not enveloping you into the music.

THe McI was a good 8.5 as far as this system goes.

The Theta is a fantastic amplifier.

I just want a Halco myself.

I have done the set stuff and although it is juicy to listen to (2A3 and 45's) their is some speed and staging issues (depth to width) that seems a bit strange. Good as they are, they do not have the utter power to make the speakers simply dissapear.

I think the Halco amplifiers are upwards of 20 grand.

The finest sound yet, the amplifiers from KR audio. Riccardo Kron knew 30 years ahead of other contemporary tube designers and although he passed on this fall, he legacy will continue forever. How many amplifiers companies design and build their own tubes?

[[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.kraudio…"]Kronzilla[/]="http://www.kraudio…"]Kronzilla[/]

Yes Bill,
I said a Crown D300. I like them. I like the D150 and The D75's too. I like old Crown amps. Not the macrotechs and microtech but the old ones. I have never had a problem with them hurting my speakers. I have an old D60 I got off EBay for $80!. I love it. As far as Earthworks speakers, Yes I like their stuff. Great company.. Good products. The new 6.2's look to be a perfect solution for a small control room situation. Earthworks is dedicated to a concept of pure signal path, no coloration. Great for speakers, not my cup of tea for mics and pres. Although Earthworks mics and pres are very good, I just like stuff that adds character to a sound. ....... Fats

It would be cool if I throw this DC300 into the system and actually love it.

We shall see, new years day. It is in the corner right now roasting away on a dummy load to make sure it is good. I did some soldering on it (would not power up) and I had a skeleton that I robbed the finals from (that will missing the x former and caps..so now this baby is cooking away (I got heat sinc grease on my pants).

I do hope it kicks ass, I only heard one, one time in a high end system and it was not shabby at all them..actually damn good.

We will not know until I try if this thing is going to mate into the system. Like I say, it will be a fun thing and I will post how I think it compares with the state of the art of todays pricy stuff.

Old sh*t rocks... I am under the assumption that the D300 is class "A"??? Is that correct? I hope you decide you like it! ..... Fats

Nope, class AB push-pull outputs.

PNP's and NPN's ,4 per channel. :D but I do not think I could get more than 25 watts per channel from it :roll: and I would need a squirrel cage dual blower to keep it cool. Those rack mount blowers are over 400 bucks :eek: