Hey ya'll, Im Ryan from Western New York and Im looking to set up a pro audion and lighting system to do sound/lighting for the local band scene. The locals here deserve much better than they are getting now. Im just wondering if I am in the right forum to ask for advice on getting the proper set up.
So far Im thinking of going for a PreSonus StudioLiveboard and other than that its all in the air. Any help or guidance would be greatly appreciated.
Also with being new here but not new to forums I appologize if this isn't in the proper area. I think it is but may not be. :twisted:
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I've used powered speakers from several different manufacturers,
I've used powered speakers from several different manufacturers, (JBL, Mackie, QSC) all of them were pretty impressive. I don't know anything about the lower-shelf stuff. (you fill in the brand names) I'm running passive speakers myself, but if I were starting from scratch .... I don't know... I'd be doing the math.
If you can swing the difference look at upgrading the EQ at least to the 1231. It's money well-spent in my opinion. MadMax is right the KT (Klark-Teknik) EQ's are the ultimate touring EQ, but it's going to crush your budget (SQ$1200-DN$2200) My BSS FCS EQ sounds very nice, but doesn't get bounced around going to gigs, so I can't speak to it's road-readiness - it's also going to take a lot bigger bite out of your budget than the ones you're leaning toward.
The DriveRack PA+ (or DriveRack PX for powered speakers), is a cool piece and a worthwhile investment if you plan to use it for more than just a crossover. It can give you that master compressor/limiter Max recommends, along with the EQ, and crossover. Compared to buying a dual EQ, dual compressor, and stereo crossover, it's a decent buy. But you'll still want EQ(s) for your monitors.
I'd split the difference on Max's compressor recommendations and go with the 166XL.
Again, hopefully that helps rather than just stir the pot.
Honestly at this point everything helps! Knowing what my option
Honestly at this point everything helps! Knowing what my options are is what its all about right?
I did some shopping around online tonight and was able to whittle about 700 off the quote from the local shop.(kinda local anyways) That would bring it down to about 6500ish if I go with the GL2400 instead of the ZED and go with a pair of single 18 subs. I personally dont think that is terrible.
Oh while im on the subject of Mixers, what do you think of that price for the A&H GL2400 with the two faders needing replaced BUT it will be covered under warranty? Go or no go on that? That is my biggest and most urgent question at hand. At $1415 I doubt it will last very long and if you all agree I think it would be a marvelous cornerstone to building my rig.
Sure is Dvdhawk. Heres a link to the spec sheet. http://www.gl
Sure is Dvdhawk.
Heres a link to the spec sheet.
http://www.glseries.com/gl2400.php
The salesman said that it will be 100% fixable with no charges, says its an easy fix due to the individual cards for each unit in the board.
The faders are easy to fix too.... Alps. Pull the cap off the f
The faders are easy to fix too.... Alps.
Pull the cap off the fader, drop the bottom pan, unsolder 3 leads on the board or the fader... two screws on the fader... done.
About a 20 minute fix.
Hell, if you're any good at soldering... get em' to take another hunnert or so off the price and get two replacement faders for $50 and fix it yourself.
But if they'll do the fix before you pick it up... let em'.
Good little consoles...
I use the GL2200 boards all the time. Pretty decent sound, and t
I use the GL2200 boards all the time. Pretty decent sound, and they can be used for monitor boards when you want to upgrade your FoH. The 2400 is basically the same board.
The Driverack is nice, but its good to have an EQ you can reach for and pull faders. Nothing like instant adjustment in a live environment.
Thanks Hawk, the issue about having to get another EQ for the mi
Thanks Hawk, the issue about having to get another EQ for the mixer, I think, is what drove me away from the Drive Rack PA. Then again, I am one to prefer seeing, and feeling everything I've got going on....
Also, just a question....I know larger boards are being suggested, which are great, however, I know personally, I dont run sound at any venues that are big enough to have more than one band set up at a time, let alone have the bands set up (if they could) in enough advance to do a sound check and use twice as many channels to have everything setup. So, why get a huge board, as opposed to a 16-24ch board. Just my opinion, something to think about.
Most bands have about 10-13 channels of stuff, but occasionally
Most bands have about 10-13 channels of stuff, but occasionally you'll run into a group that uses 20 or more. If you're going to be working for whomever wants to hire you, you should be prepared for this. As I like to run effects into board channels if I can as well, and really like to have a minimum of 3 effects(more is nice), that can really eat up a lot of channels. Especially if you like to run in stereo(3 stereo effects take up 6 channels). In a pinch, you can always use the returns or stereo channels of course.
MadMax wrote: [quote=stealthy]As for my amps (Crown XLS's)....I
MadMax wrote: [quote=stealthy]As for my amps (Crown XLS's)....I am 100% happy with them. Even after hours outside in the sun, they only get WARM at most. Inside, I cant get them to break a sweat at all.
Pfffft... you ain't doin' nuttin' till you see a Crown do the big BZZZZZZZZZZZT!!!!!.... poof....... whisps of nuked transformer..........
.......then silence out of probably 2 boxes....
..... but you're not quite sure which two!
That's when you're crankin'
Then you realize you got a nice big shipping bill...
Then too, you get a nice big shipping bill out of any amp you gotta send in.
(or get replacement parts for if you tech it yourself.)
Not been real happy with FCS... seen 3 of em on my bench before. They sound fine... just not up to severe road duty.
KT's da' bomb in my book.
Also look for some decent outboard...
Outboard
H3000 is one of the most versatile FX units, but the venerable favorites of TC's D-Two and M-One will suit most every rider.
Comps/Gates:
I'd seriously suggest at least a pair of comps on the two bus to act as a limiter, if nothing else. The dbx 160A's might be a decent choice, but I'm only going off my experience with the classic 160X's and 160XT's. 266XL's are ok, but you get what you pay for.
ACP88's are a good bang for the buck. They aren't all that, but decent enough that's I've had em' show up on plenty of gigs; local's, regional's and national's.
YaH!!
Lets go really OldeSkool and talk about Phase Linear 700's goin DC and throwing a three foot flame out of the subs! The 'dude' hanging onto the stand throught it was part of the show!! "Oh WOW Man!"...
We see a LOT of ACP88's up here at the indie venues. Very decent performance for the dollar and socketted IC's make em kinda simple to upgrade.
Unless I'm mistaken (oh really???) Presonus sockets all their stuff at that level.
Crowns are okay. NOT the semi pro stuff but the touring stuff which is a big budget builder. I still dont like amps that need 360degree airflow around em to keep things in operating temps......
A Midas board is going to be your best friend. The A&H are all okay....a bit flat sounding....NOT the oldskool Yahamama like a PM series but also not the boat anchor to tug around either...
The Ramsa boards are very very nice and very very sturdy. You can find em used for a nice discount. They sound good too.
A couple of DA7 digitals will get you all the HP you need. The layering through the menus makes for an interesting day but you get used to em eventually.
Get the best EQ outboard you can buy.
Really.
If you're sending left/right mains through this circuit, your loss issues with a piece of crap is going to be huge. A friend invested a bunch in his mains, power, board and scrimped on the outboard. Couldnt figure out why the PA always sounded so muffled. I went to a venue and after shutting all the EQ's off and rerouting the outputs direct and the effects through a sub and returning it to a channel, the whole thing really got pleasant and loud as it shoulda...go figure.
So choose wisely. Or you'll end up as dust like the Nazi's did when they opened the chalice box....
As for mains....I like Yamahahas...but EAW's blow em away as do Klipsch and Martin Sound.
Efficiency is paramount to getting a good sound with a small amount of cabs. Use your power well.. pushing air is an expensive thing when all your doing is pushing air against the design of the box.
QSC power is very good power.
How do all you knob jockies feel about the PLX series??
Just wondering. Liteweight and all.
Never farted around with Martin or Meyer. PLX on KF Series are
Never farted around with Martin or Meyer.
PLX on KF Series are pretty strong. Only saw em' twice though. Then the rig went to a new home.
Call me old skool, but big Crests on subs are decent combination's.
Gotta put in the word for an 8-10 aux console...... 10 auxes are usually plenty, IMHO, 8 are the minimum if you're gonna do FOH/Mon's from the same desk. Unfortunately, you don't get that many auxes in a Venice, but you can in an A&H that will be pretty road worthy.
PLX is top-notch power:weight ratio and I've heard some outstand
PLX is top-notch power:weight ratio and I've heard some outstanding Martin outdoor rigs. Meyer drum monitors are awesome. But I can't see how he 'get's into the game' using everything on OUR wishlists, plus lights on a 15k budget. He's going to have to set his sights a little lower to get started.
dvdhawk wrote: But I can't see how he 'get's into the game' usin
dvdhawk wrote: But I can't see how he 'get's into the game' using everything on OUR wishlists, plus lights on a 15k budget. He's going to have to set his sights a little lower to get started.
Exactly, it seems as if people are forgetting that he has no gear, has never owned gear, and never really "run sound". To be honest, this whole thing could flop, then he's out a shitload of money on "your" stuff!
Dvd, Stealthy, Thank you both for seeing stuff from my perspecti
Dvd, Stealthy, Thank you both for seeing stuff from my perspective. I would love to be able to have an unlimited budget to put my rig together...unfortunately I dont. My realistic budget is actually probably less than I initially expect BUT I dont want to go cheap. We'll use cheap as a relative term, this is an expensive rig for me, I understand that some of you have the funds and honestly the need for Top of the Line gear...I dont have either.
I simply want to be able to offer premium sound(again the term is relative, in my small market area this would be TOTL rigging) In all honesty I could go buy a $4000 dollar Carvin complete set and be a step ahead of the competition but that isnt the route I want to go. This is probably going to end up being a hobby/part time weekend gig for me. I have a job that pays great money and in my area I dont see it being a full time fruitful career.
Basically I love live music, whether its a guy playing acoustic at a party or if Im seeing the Stones in MSG(I wish!) I just enjoy music. The sound guys here blow...period. I look at putting this rig together as an investment into something I love. If/when it pays for itself Ill be exstatic, everything else will be a bonus honestly. If it gets bigger than that Ill be more than happy. Basically I am looking for a way to be somewhat relavent in my small music scene. I dont have the talent, well maybe its the drive, to be a good musician. I fart around a little but thats where it stops.
I really appreciate everyones input so please keep posting, it give us little guys something to research and fantasize about. But the gear I have rattled off and been lead to is really about as good as its going to get for me at this time.
It kind of goes to the "Does Gear Matter?" thread, this is GREAT gear to me, it may be sub-par to some. Thanks again for everyones suggestions.
As we all walk crawl or run down the paths that we follow in mus
As we all walk crawl or run down the paths that we follow in music, it is all for different reasons with one unifying theme. We are following our own passion, it has been extremely rare (maybe with the exception of promoters LOL) that the people I have worked in this industry came to it first from their love of music. All the rest of it seems like some ludicrous balancing act between that and money/life/family/work. Some have been fortunate in finding ways to make a great living out of it, some break even and others simply invest in their dreams with little care as to whether it offers financial return. Art can be cruel mistress. If anything the advice you are being given about buying the best gear you can possibly afford is from the school of hard knocks. "Please don't do as I have done!" I wish I had back every foolish $ I had spent but then again how would I have known that it was foolish. Ryan you have to use your better judgement in balancing passion and budget, but if this is truly in your blood then the money you spend wisely will offer years of service. One thing to remember is that all gear that must be sold at some later date goes at such devalued dollars that it stings and bad gear can hardly be given away. Do your best and good luck.
That is why Im asking about gear before committing to anything.
That is why Im asking about gear before committing to anything. I ask about a piece of gear, that was recommended, someone else recommends something that is much more expensive, much heavier and probably going to be a real PITA to use in a bar setting.
Im sorry if Im sounding frustrated...
Can someone tell me if my thinking is correct here, buses are the "groups" that I spoke about when referring to the GL2400 right?
So the GL2400 is going to be a 24ch 4bus 6aux console
What is going to be the major advantages to me in the situation of a bar/club setting with ONE band with going with say a GL2800?
The 2800 is 32ch/8bus/10aux board(that is 2600 bucks more than the 2400 and pretty much kills my budget)
If you think that I need a large format 32/8 console, sell me. Make me understand why I need to triple my investment as far as a board goes.
In the incarnation I have in my head I will NEVER need to do sound for more than 2 bands and that will be rare. In the rare instance that I would need to do several bands I could always rent a larger board but in reality that isnt going to be happening for at least a couple years.
Do you guys remember where you started? Did your initial investment meet or exceed what I have stated so far? The only piece of gear that I thought I had settled on was the GL2400, please remember that I have a budget of 10-15k, If I can do it properly for less by all means I am going to do so.
1st: Groups = Buses Rock and metal bands will rarely exceed 24
1st: Groups = Buses
Rock and metal bands will rarely exceed 24 channels. A ridiculously oversized drumset is the biggest channel hog in a typical metal band. Add bass and a couple-three guitars at most, plus a vocal or three and you're still under 16 in most cases. Returning the effects into channels as Spase suggests is always nice if you can spare the channels. If your passion is in working with rock/metal bands, I don't think you'll regret the 24-channel GL2400 at that price. That would be a compromise I could easily live with. If you get steady work with a band that needs more channels - submixing the drums on a small external board (while not ideal) isn't the end of the world.
I own 5 different mixers for different types of jobs from 8 - 32 channels, but my 16 and 24 channel mixers see the most action.
I know it's only rock 'n' roll, but I like it, like it Yes I DO!
Davedog wrote: How do all you knob jockies feel about the PLX se
Davedog wrote: How do all you knob jockies feel about the PLX series??
Just wondering. Liteweight and all.
Uhhhh... I was primarily responding to DD's general knob jockey inquiry... not suggesting that you can't do decent work with "budget" gear.
But yes, I too am talking from the hard knocks grad course aspect when I suggest you buy good quality gear... e.g. Good shit ain't cheap, and cheap shit ain't always good.
I've been fortunate to work with some really great world class gear, and I've worked on some of the weakest piles of junk that could possibly be cobbled together.
Sure, I would prefer the higher end stuff, but you really only find it economical to use for major production. There's such a thing as practicality. e.g. why would you haul a 48 channel Heritage 3000 and a 24 box rig into a 1200 sq ft bar?
But by the same token, why take a 12 channel, 2 aux toy to a gig where you know you'll consistently need at least 24 channels and 8 auxes?
From a real world experience, the GL series is fine, more than fine, and not quite enough... it depends on what situation in which you find yourself. But I would venture that in most cases, this level of gear would suit the vast majority of your needs.
As has been pointed out, you need aux's for monitor sends and you need aux's for FX. Four monitor mixes is almost always as small as you'll see on any rider. Two stereo FX units will use 4 more aux's.
No, you don't have to use em' as stereo, but if an FX unit has two engines, you can call it 4 FX and therefore the 4 aux's are again relevant.
The GL series can easily reverse roles from dual purpose, to single purpose at the flip of a coupla' switches. Granted, the same applies to the Midas stuff as well as Smackie and that level of gear. But this is IMHO, where the GL's shine.
When I bought my first pro level console, it was not centered around "In the incarnation I have in my head I will NEVER need to do sound for more than 2 bands and that will be rare. In the rare instance that I would need to do several bands I could always rent a larger board but in reality that isnt going to be happening for at least a couple years. "
More the opposite. I wanted the best bang for the buck that gave me extra channels in case I had one or two go bad, run the FX I needed and potentially deal with an opening act.
This was for my own band.
We were a 5 piece and just barely got by with 8 auxes and lived quite comfortably with 40 channels. Because we had extra channels, we got to do some bigger gigs where we could handle an opening act.
Do you guys remember where you started? I started by working on
Do you guys remember where you started?
I started by working on someone elses rig and learning every bit of sound knowledge I could. I learned how to change drivers, solder connectors, wrap cables (lots and lots of cables), remove channel strips from the boards for repair, and a whole host of other things that seem tiny and insignificant until it is your name and your rig on the line.
Eventually I ended up in charge of a full rig of my own.
The advantage to the GL2800 with the 10aux and 8 buses is going
The advantage to the GL2800 with the 10aux and 8 buses is going to be the sound. It has better pre's than the 2400 I believe. The extra auxes will give you more effects as well - especially running monitors from front of house. It also has mute groups.
Still, I think you're on the right track with the 2400. As I mentioned before, you can use it to start, and if things go well, you move up to a better front of house board and put that on monitors.
If I were you, I'd get a minimal set up to get going. Then keep an eye out on ebey/craigslist for used stuff off the list, or just save any earnings and put it into the stuff you need.
Minimal set up to me would be:
GL2400
Klark Technic DN360 (I see them for ~$700 on ebay)
3 - DBX 166XL dual comps<$800(2 for mains and 4 for sub groups or inserts somewhere)
2 - DBX 215 dual 15band eqs for monitors~$300(upgrade to 31 bands ASAP then you can use the 15's on inserts with the comps or separately)
TC electronics D two $500
Yamaha spx90 or lexicon lxp-15 for reverb(ebay ~$200 both easy to use decent reverbs)
Mics:
6 Senheiser e835s = $450
3 Senheiser e609 for guitars = $300
6 Sennheiser e604 for snare/toms = $700
1 Shure DMK57-52(3SM57s and a Beta52) = $500
3 - Radial ProDI = $300
For speakers, I would probably go for active speakers if I had to move everything around all the time:
2 QSC K12 = $1600
2 QSC K Sub = $2100
cables:
150' 24 Channel Snake w/20' split = $750
20' 8 channel sub snake = $100
15 - 10' mic cables = $250
15 - 15' mic cables = $300
10 - 3' mic cables = $100
2 - 10' 4 channel insert snakes = $60
1 - 10' unbalanced 1/4" snake = $70
mic stands:
3 straights
4 booms
6 short booms
about $350
12 space rack case $200
total $12130 if I added that correctly. That list has a lot of slop in it, I know I underpriced the main snake and the sub snake(for retail anyways) and a few items I priced out on ebay - which some people wouldn't want to chance. I'm pretty sure you could get all that and actually beat that price if you tried. That leaves you almost 3 grand for lights. You could throw together a 16 or 20 par set for well under $3000 I think.
Not a bad list. Like Spase said, I'd dump the the 215 in favor
Not a bad list.
Like Spase said, I'd dump the the 215 in favor of the 2231. A 15 band EQ just doesn't cut it IMHO. A 1/3 octave is the standard, and where ever you go, if you get a guest engineer in, they will expect at least a 31 band. Primarily because with a 31 band, you actually have the control you need... and specifically I'd pick the 2231 from the dbx line, because they are the long faders instead of the little dinky ones that are more all or nothing. You can find em' on eBay for pretty cheap.
Par's are getting MUCH cheaper now days... especially since you're talking club stuff. I'd look into the LED fixtures and a simple controller. e.g. 4 LED's per side on trees and 8 across the back on an 8 foot truss. That would be roughly equivalent to double that in standard gel'd cans, and they use a hell of a lot less power.
Get a seriously pro cable reel. Set-up and strike times get easi
Get a seriously pro cable reel. Set-up and strike times get easier and quicker and the maintainence issues with pulling cables to their locations is reduced by half. It will pay for itself by saving your cables from wear and tear AND....and this is a great thing....your most idiot friend can help reel em up. http://www.hannay.com I think.
Davedog wrote: Get a seriously pro cable reel. Set-up and strike
Davedog wrote: Get a seriously pro cable reel. Set-up and strike times get easier and quicker and the maintainence issues with pulling cables to their locations is reduced by half. It will pay for itself by saving your cables from wear and tear AND....and this is a great thing....your most idiot friend can help reel em up. http://www.hannay.com I think.
I have a friend that uses a hose reel he got from the hardware store. Works about as well and was a lot cheaper. They are a nice investment to save on cables though.
I used three hose reels for quite a while and they are great as
I used three hose reels for quite a while and they are great as well as cheap.
The main problem was they were difficult to pack and they fit in NOTHING other than a custom built box. I had one for main snake, one for speaker cable and one for mic cables. I built a box with three dividers and they slid in and out from there. It wasnt the best setup but it worked.
The pro-reels are generally built to spec for installation in standard Anvil cases. A case like an amp case is ideal as you can mount the reel upright and simply pull the cover off and wheel it to the spot. A wheel lock set also works wonders if you dont have something to stopper it with.
Stealthy thank you for your input, it is definately appreciated.
Stealthy thank you for your input, it is definately appreciated. The period of being uber-excited just after leaving the music shop yesturday and has wore off a little. Im actually contemplating changing the entire speaker set up today. In order to keep the costs down Im thinking of going with powered speakers for the immediate time being. As things progress I would upgrade to a rack, with amps and passive cabinets. I guess thats where I am today.