Not that I'm an Avid fan in any way, but aren't these support options? Meaning you have the choice to buy these various support packages; but I don't think it's necessary to just use PT.... kinda like having the choice of getting the extended maintenance plans that car dealers try to sell you when you buy a car...

OTOH, you'd think that, after paying $600 (the cost of buying the prog from scratch and not doing an upgrade) that there would be support included.

But, what do I know? I'm not one of the Avid kool-aid drinkers anymore.

not sure either, I saw this over at the slutz last night on a boycott Avid post, seems this is a mandatory something. Maybe someone here will chime in and talk more about it. I need a good laugh today.

From this to the new and improved updates, its like a bad loop lol.

it's the whole update thing that drives me crazy. not only Avid but everyone. i get it .... memory and miniaturization advances increase speed and functions ... yeah yeah, just give me something i can figure out without having a computer sciences degree and then leave it alone for a while.

the whole forced update thing due to OS "advances", hardware obsolescence and the dropping of support for software is contrived planned obsolessence. they could do things differently and still go the bank a few times a week. that's why i advocate hardware and much as possible. it keeps going and going and going.

how many people have software and plugs that are more than a few years old and what good is it if i can buy an LA2 for $400 when i have to pay to upgrade it in a year or two and then buy it all over in another 2 or 3 years and that keeps going on and on? (times this across all the plugs you use).

Kurt Foster, post: 421035, member: 7836 wrote: and what good is it if i can buy an LA2 for $400

Kurt...Kurt...C'mon now buddy... time to get up and get ready for school... ;)

An LA2 for $400, you say? LOL... uhm... okay....and where would that be available, please?

Just kidding. Your point is taken. The last platform I used was Sonar, and I was on version 7.0 PE for over ten years. Everyone I knew was upgrading either Sonar or PT every year or two, and I stayed where I was (running Windows XP 32 bit until just last year, by the way...LOL) Why? Because for what I was doing, it worked just fine for me. At the time, I thought it was the best platform for me in regard to audio and midi integration. It wasn't until last spring, when Chris turned me onto Samplitude, that I made the move away from Sonar, and my reason for that was simple: I thought Samplitude sounded a lot better than Sonar did (I'm not saying this to bring up the ancient debate about whether all DAW's are the same or not)...

And, I can honestly see myself being completely content with this version of Samp for quite sometime. There's an upgrade around the corner for Samplitude in December, and I'm in no rush, because I don't have to.
I'm not in business anymore - at least not to the extent of what I was from 1988 to 2004; so I don't need to upgrade to every little change out of necessity - the necessity of keeping up with my competitors like I used to have to do.

Here's the other thing about Avid: They absolutely KNOW that they are the kings of digital audio production platforms, from the smallest home studios, to mid-level project facilities, to the biggest and most renowned studios in the world. Like them or no - and I don't, LOL - they have carved their own niche out in this industry. They are by far the most popular platform ... and they know it.

So, they can pretty much do or charge whatever they feel like doing or charging, because they know damned well that their client base isn't really going anywhere. I respect the boycott that Chris mentioned, but honestly, I don't believe it will matter in the least. Those consumers, on all ends of the studio spectrum, are not going to dump or walk away from a platform that they have invested large sums of money in, for both the software and the hardware that they have invested in to run PT. Some guy who just dropped 10 large on an Avid C24 controller isn't gonna boycott them over a $200 licensing fee, whether it's obligatory or not.

Please don't get the impression that I'm defending Avid. I can't stand their policies, their support, their constant squeezing of every last dollar out of their customers...or the way they treat their customers.
I'm just saying that I really don't think they are going away anytime soon.

I would love to be proven wrong on that last statement, by the way. ;)

FWIW d.

I was very anti when Adobe changed their model to subscription, and vowed I'd never 'rent' my work tools. I've now been paying them monthly for over a year, and have got used to it. The only worry I have is how much it will go up each year. Mine went up a bit, but I guess I'm still happy. Adobe of course lost a few customers, but if you use it to make a living, what option do you have.

I'm not an Avid user - I moved away when I got rid of XP, years ago, but for those that are, and want access to the latest features and support - you will change, at some point.

Avid is not the only game in town anymore.

There are other options that are just as good as PT, and in many ways even better ... and I say that as a long-time former PT user.

Those interested, or who may be on the verge of buying their first pro-based DAW platform, may want to look [[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.samplitu…"]HERE before you pull the trigger on Avid...[/]="http://www.samplitu…"]HERE before you pull the trigger on Avid...[/]

I don't like subscription services or doing things in the cloud. It doesn't seem safe? Or practical? It just sounds like a big moneymaking scheme? To keep us all as slaves. My other bills are bad enough. I don't need more subscriptions. I just want to buy my software.

I thought that too, but although I hate the principle of it, I don't actually notice the monthly subscription, but I always agonised over doing the latest upgrade - usually missing a version until a new feature appeared I liked or needed for a job. Now I always have the latest one - and with Adobe, I also can install their package on every computer, and if I suddenly need a job to be done on a different one, I can authorise it, do the job, transfer the files and then unauthorised it again.

I don't use the cloud storage however - not for security (although that in Adobe's case was press worthy), simply because of upload times when you need something NOW!

In the UK, people have stopped buying cars, and now lease them - so ownership is perhaps less important. I did complete a single job on an old version of Sony Soundforge - only a few years old on an ancient PC - and really noticed the usual machines facilities and functions were missing. I bet they too move to subscription at some point. We will have to see.

I may have a big problem with this. I don't know & I can't get any straight answers. I don't mind the subscription model. I don't mind the money. BUT I really don't want to be required to connect my workstation to the internet. Sometimes I do field recordings where there is no internet. If PT 12 needs to check in with Avid to see if my subscription is up to date, that is a deal-killer for me. I'll just stay on PT11 as long as I can.

Also, btw, I don't care at all about the collaboration features, the store ,etc. I'm quite happy with PT11 as it is.

I'm pretty confident to say Pro Tools, along with other DAW platforms are going to be following the gaming model where you have to be connected to the server if you want to move with the , UAD store front approach to plug and play, and to collaborate with your DAW's user groups all looking to find a way to play this game. We are moving towards the gaming platform.

I would expect Presonus and Pro Tools to be banging this one out head to head in the not too long future.
While all you Avid lovers ( the 3 stage levels) are doing that like gamers... , there will be the Samplituders sitting back watching the rest of the gong show wondering if we should be getting a part of the action, in a more polished way.
I suspect there will be a way for us all to play online, the question is, how much and will it be just more electronic distraction. We shall see.

It's not caused me any issues with Adobe CC - the computer needs to be connected every so often to update the licenser and there's no need to have a connection to use it, unless you authorised more than two computers, when it needs to be connected to restore operation. I can't believe ProTools would make permanent connection a requirement.

paulears, post: 426882, member: 47782 wrote: I can't believe ProTools would make permanent connection a requirement.

WARNING: RANT TO FOLLOW !

I'm just wondering what has happened to actual ownership of a product... I don't see as much of a problem with Avid offering this as an option - I would consider this to be a "lease" system, not much different than that same option you have with a car, and for some users, this might be the best way to go. But, for them to say "this is our new model and if you don't like it then that's tough ***t" ... is, to me, both arrogant and ridiculous. Like with autos, I should have a choice between buying and owning it, or, leasing and using it.

I use Samplitude. I don't need an internet connection to use it. For plugs, I use T-Racks, some Slate stuff, and a few Waves plugs; the T-Racks and Waves stuff is authorized directly to my HDD and the Slate plugs that I have are authorized to an iLok.
These all initially required an internet connection to authorize, but after that, they are resident and require no further connection to continue to operate, no further authorization after they've been installed and authorized.

I don't want to be forced to be tethered to the internet in order to work!

Of course I don't mind logging on occasionally - to get updates, fixes, etc., but I don't want to have to be logged on every time I want to work.

I don't want my computer to have to "phone the mothership" every time I open my DAW. There are just too many things that can get in the way, too many things that can go wrong.
Every time you add a step to your workflow, especially a step that you have no real control over - and that isn't really necessary, either - you are increasing the percentage of possibility for issues to pop up, for things to go wrong.

Three months ago, I was without internet service for almost three days, due to an ice storm that had come through our area. It took the cable company nearly 3 full days to bring the area back online.
If my DAW had required internet authorization to run, in that situation, I would have been dead in the water. What would I have done if I'd had an actual deadline to meet?

I think what bothers me most, is that it seems as though our choices as consumers are being stripped away, little by little. I don't want to be beholden to Avid's arrogant policies - or, for that matter, to any other company's force-fed policies, either.

If I want to try your product, then let me try it, or lease it to see what I think, and at that point, I'm bound by your rules, and that's fine.

But... if like your product well enough to buy it, then take my money, say "thank you"..... and then stay the hell out of my way afterwards. If I need you, I'll contact you.

I get that there are studios that have so much money tied up into their Avid rigs that, after a period of time, it seems almost impossible for them to switch to another format... beyond switching ( or getting rid of) the gear, there's also the learning curve of a new platform, and that switch is not always an easy one... it took me the better part of 2 months, working everyday, to finally get a handle on Samplitude to the point where I felt I could work in front of a client without having my abilities come into question.

But... still, I can't help but wonder just how far will Avid have to go - before even the most loyal of customers finally throws up their hands and says 'This has gone too far...enough is enough."

With few exceptions, apparently Avid hasn't yet reached that point for these people and these studios.

For me, they overstepped their bounds several years ago, and I know a handful of other pro engineers, like Chris, and a few of my friends on another forum that I frequent ( all pro engineers) who no longer drink the Avid Kool-Aid anymore, either, but our numbers are few. We're the rare exceptions, and certainly not high enough in number to make the folks at Avid lose any sleep.

It's funny though... with the exception of one person, every engineer friend I know who uses PT hates it. They bitch about it all the time, and, they can't stand Avid as a company. I've lost count of how many times these friends of mine have complained about Avid's customer "support", how it takes sometimes as long as a week for tech support to get back to their customers, and how, once you finally do get a chance to talk to an actual person, the customer reps are rude and aloof.

But... they still keep using it. And that's the rub right there, gang - because Avid knows this. They absolutely know that they've got their customers by the nads. And they don't care one bit, either.

FWIW

d.

It's a shame, because as a peice of software I like it. It's just obnoxious with the corperate crap, and it's Imo unstable. Subscription is the future, i don't like it, but really it's not that much different than it was. We have all upgraded one thing to get the new thing working, and pandoras box opens.

Computer technology in general moves faster than the average consumer can keep up with. Often too fast for its own good. As I professional I expect to upgrade the main computer system every 3-5 years. I usually don't stray too far from watever was the current version of DAW when the computer was current either. I don't like the idea of losing your capabiltites if the subscription ends.

Avids plan is to be the hub for artists collaborating thru their networking service. This will replace the formely broken record company buisness model for owning artists material and creative rights. Selling us toys is just the beginning. By creating a digital infrastructure, they keep a hand in the consumer pocket round trip.

You should have seen how avid handled an account with a technolgy college some of my co workers teach at. It's not just the little guy they take do it to, half a million doesn't get them to bat an eye, nor does the threat of losing it. Whacha gonna do punk? Not teach pro tools..? Lol

The problem is that everything that makes avid suck as a creativly filed entity, makes its amazing from a bottom dollar point of veiw, to profit makers. It's quite genius from that perspective. Apple is already there, just when I cathch on, steve jobs dies, and my apple products have worked progressively worse, in the last year or so. The original ios 7 was nearly flawless, and currently I would describe my stuff working sluggishly and not smooth.

Look I'm a former business major who stopped going, I hate the lack of moral coniousness they teach. But I not naive enough to say I wouldn't do the same thng if the stakes were that high. Shure is one of the few company's I can think of off hand that hasn't cheapened their products or strayed from the original buisness model.

kmetal, post: 426903, member: 37533 wrote: I'm a former business major who stopped going, I hate the lack of moral coniousness they teach. But I not naive enough to say I wouldn't do the same thng if the stakes were that high. Shure is one of the few company's I can think of off hand that hasn't cheapened their products or strayed from the original buisness model.

I guess I just don't get the whole "in order to be successful in business you have to be a jerk" business model. There have been plenty of very successful companies that have been customer-relations oriented, and that have done very well by having a reputation as being customer friendly.

I don't really have a problem with PT as a production format in itself. Honestly, it is an incredible value for the money. I remember, back when it first came out, I thought "this is the ultimate sampler", and it did what it was designed to do very well.
If, in the early years, they had been better about midi integration, I would probably have never moved over to Cakewalk/Sonar. The lack of midi implementation in early PT versions was really the only reason I moved away from it back in those early years, and by the time they finally got around to handling the midi thing, I had already been working in CW for so long, and was so familiar with it, that I just stayed with Twelve Tone, until I switched over to Samplitude last year.

That's not to say I stopped working with PT entirely - because it's pretty much everywhere, from the simplest home recording rig up to the nicest of pro facilities, and if you are a hired gun engineer working in different rooms, there's no doubt you're gonna have to work with it eventually - and I did, many times, and still do. I don't mind it as a platform ... while my own favorite is Samplitude, if I had to do a session on PT, I wouldn't have any problems doing so; it's a solid, up to date production platform. I just don't believe that in order to record and mix a great sounding album that PT is obligatory in that regard. There are several great platforms to choose from. PT sure ain't the only game in town anymore. ;)

Funny... think about how successful Avid is now even though they are arrogant and couldn't care less about customer satisfaction.... now, imagine how successful they would be if they actually did start caring about their customers. ;)

I said all of this when Adobe announced their creative cloud - and vowed I'd not do it, with pretty well the same strong view as Donny's above. I've now been paying them for over a year, and frankly, I'm actually happy. They have extra bits and pieces released quite often, and I now have software I didn't have before. Some I've tried and I won't use, but other stuff is actually new to me and useful. I've never had an issue with not being able to run any of it because I didn't have an internet connection, I can run the software on multiple computers, if I wish, and if I try to run it on an authorised computer, it simply asks me to dump one of the others, which it kills remotely. Then on that machine - I have to re-authorise, but from then on, it's fine again. I just can only have it running on two at the same time without authorisation problems.

It was brave of Adobe to do this - and I really thought it would fail, but it hasn't, and judging by the numbers of people at a recent seminar who are all subscribers, most were very happy. I suspect Protools will simply follow the same route.

This is a major shift in attitude - not the manufacturer's attitude, but the users. I'm renting the software. I don't own it. At first this was odd, but now, when I look at my computer history I have so much older software I own, that doesn't work any longer because it doesn't like windows 7 or 8 - I have other software that can't be authorised for a new computer because the servers were closed down, I have more that doesn't have access to the modern codecs, and other software that I can't even find the authorisation code to type in. In effect, it's scrap. I swapped my studio computer over to a new one, and getting Cubase up and running was a pain - needed quite a bit of messing around to get the licensers to make it run. I needed to use Adobe Audition for just one job on it, and rather than network all the files to the video room, where Audition is mainly used, I just activated it on that computer, did the job, then reactivated it on the video machine.

I suspect that Protools have seen all this, seen the users give in, and then smile - and will follow Adobe's lead.

I always wanted to own my software too, but not any longer. I just want to use it! Not sure how it is in the US, but so many people in decent jobs here now don't own their car, they kind of rent them, paying £X per month for a brand new one, then when it is two or three years later, they swap it for another new one. Our auto history was that people always owned cars from new to scrap, and now that has changed too.

We have a class structure that says owning your home is best, renting a home is worst. Across in Holland, more well off people rent as standard. That hasn't happened here yet, but watch this space.

I have no problem at all with that model, Paul. Much of what you mentioned makes a great deal of sense. You make some great points... like this, for example:

paulears, post: 426975, member: 47782 wrote: but now, when I look at my computer history I have so much older software I own, that doesn't work any longer because it doesn't like windows 7 or 8 - I have other software that can't be authorised for a new computer because the servers were closed down, I have more that doesn't have access to the modern codecs, and other software that I can't even find the authorisation code to type in.

I couldn't agree more. And if that is the best way for you, then you should absolutely do it this way.

My problem is when this type of business /product model becomes obligatory, and the choices of doing it the new way, or sticking with an older way, is stripped away from loyal customers, and crammed down the throats of the customer base.

;)