Hey Wes,
I believe Kurts comment was on a thread that I had going. I havn't heart the RNP nor many other high end pres at this point so keep that in mind. There are others around here that are more familiar with these units than I. That being said, I've been doing a ton of research into mic pres of all sorts and find that quiet a few engineers really love the RNP. Even Fletcher of Mercanary recommended one and said he thinks they're great. Nathan of Atlas Pro Audio uses RNPs as well. Both are guys that have access to virtually anything they want. I met a guy that has a SEB 4000 and says the RNP while differnt is very much just as good as the SEB. My 2 cents (again never heard the thing) If you went into a record store and saw an unkown band selling they're disk for $4. You'd probably say, " eh, this probably sucks cause its only $4 bucks. In all actuallity the CD could be great AND a great value. I think the RNP is dismissed by some because it isn't $2,000. Now is it as good as Grace or Great River, probably not. Is it damn close, to the point most of your clients couldn't hear the difference unless you point it out....I'd guess the answer is yes. Good Luck

Jason

Wes,
The RNP is a very good unit. It is simple-no bells or whistles, But it will stack up fine against anything in the sub $800 per channel range.

I have used a few higher quality pre/compressor units such as Manley Vox Box or a Drawmer (19xx?)unit that had great sound if not a strong particular character. But I loved my first RNP/RNC combo enough to go buy another.

I can't imagine you would ever get rid of a RNP. I always find situations that they are my first choice.

Yes I plan to pick up many other pres in the future for variety. I'd love a Sebatron or a DaviSound or a JLM TMP8. Possibly a Toft ATC-2 or something like a UA610 or something. But unless I just had to free the money up, I wouldn't sell my RNPs,

I just got through recording my bands 3rd album using mainly the RNPs. If you are interested get with me and I'll post some Samples of the music.

Tom Menikos
T-Mix Studio
tmenikos@academicplanet.com

I bought one of these some months back, having read enough reliable hype to justify gambling $450.

I mostly agree with Tom--It's not the greatest thing to happen to pro-audio ever, but it does outshine many, not all, but many in its price catagory.

The thing I never hear mentioned about it--and what I like it for in the end, considering it is a solid performer, is that it doesn't seem designed for a rack but more for being portable. It's teeny-tiny. I would recommend it more for someone looking to fill out a small, portable field kit or something. The big cons: I'm not in love with how it handles bass frequencies and its 6db gain intervals are no fun--they aren't deal breakers, but they can create an issue.

Originally posted by cheap bastard:
I bought one of these ... [RNPs editor ] ... some months back, having read enough reliable hype to justify gambling $450 ....

.... I mostly agree with Tom--It's not the greatest thing to happen to pro-audio ever, but it does outshine many, not all, but many in its price catagory.

The point that I repeatedly try to make is, none of these inexpensive (not just the are-enn-pee) are significantly better than the pres found in many small format mixers, despite all the hype saying the opposite. In my judgment a person is far better off using the pres that come in their Wackies and saving their dough until they can go get a great pre amp. It is much like the difference between a Ford Crown Victoria and a Lincoln Town Car. You can get a Mercury Grand Marquee with all the bells and whistles that the Town car has, but really, it is still a Crown Vicki, with “lipstick”. The Town Car has better suspension, a better engine and better insulation. It’s just a more solid ride.

The difference a really good pre can make, even with cheap mics, is astounding. While the prosumer type pres are a very small step in the right direction, the difference is miniscule in comparison to the gear pros have been using for years. A little more on that.

Much of the thing I think that we seem to like about pres like United Audio, Neves and API's etc, is part of a preconception of what we think sounds good. Because we have heard these records for years that were cut using these tools. When engineers were using them in the 60's and 70's many actually complained about how colored they were and the "Holy Grail" was transparent mics, micpres, eq's and compressors. Now days we hearken back to those good old days and seek out this gear that was actually hated in many cases. I am guilty of this myself. I actually don't like transparent gear. but I don't record orchestral pieces or pipe organs. I do pop production.

On paper many of the budget pres, like Wackies and are-enn-pees, are very flat, have low noise, extended bandwidth and arguably extended headroom. Not my cup of tea at all. I like color. I love attitude (couldn't tell, could ya?). While these "less expensive" pres have these flat attributes, they still are passed over by pro engineers for pres more of the ilk like Grace, Millennia, Great River, all known to be extremely accurate.

Now there is a new generation of pres that are hitting the market. The designers have finally caught on that a lot of us are not interested in the least in accurate. We want color, attitude and soul. Something organic. The pres I have been raving about are prime examples IMO. I won’t mention the names because I don’t want to turn this into yet another endorsement of these products, choosing instead to stay on the topic. While these pres aren’t as inexpensive as the Wackies and are-enn-pees, they do represent a substantial value, will last forever and perhaps may even increase in cost/value as more pro recordists learn of them. This has already proven to be the case with one of the mic pres I regularly mention.

Now if a person is going straight into a DAW one or two tracks at a pop and doesn't require a mixer for no latency monitoring of multiple tracks, one of these inexpensive pres might be the low cost solution. I still think a great stereo pre would be better though.

Originally posted by Kurt Foster:
The point that I repeatedly try to make is, none of these inexpensive (not just the are-enn-pee) are significantly better than the pres found in many small format mixers, despite all the hype saying the opposite.

Judging from posts you've made on other threads, am I correct in assuming that you've never tried the "are-enn-pee" (as you disparagingly put it) that you are commenting on?

I just want to be clear, because your post sounds like you have actually tried it.

I still like my rnp for direct electric bass and overheads.

why do you call it by that name, and why Wackie? I bet you woldn't want to be call Hurt, now would you?

ohh, not being serious!! j/k

Originally posted by Yon:
I still like my rnp for direct electric bass and overheads.

why do you call it by that name, and why Wackie? I bet you woldn't want to be call Hurt, now would you?

ohh, not being serious!! j/k

Yon,
I call them that because everytime a reference is made to these names on the web, a link is created. It is not a slam on the products or the companies. I just don't want to create more internet buzz for them as I don't recomend their products. Particularly in the case of the are-enn-pee because they say on their website how much "buzz" there is on RO about their products. This refers back to the days when friends of EFF-EMM-ARR, were mods here. Much has changed (I'm sure some would argue, for the worse, but I don't agree) since then.

You can call me anything you like. My wife calls me "your assholiness" (as in "yes, your asshoiliness") all the time. I usually answer to just about any name you choose to hang on me. Call me anything except late for dinner. mmmm --- foooood! (he said as he scarfed down a piece of heat 'em up pizza) ..

Originally posted by jroberts:

Judging from posts you've made on other threads, am I correct in assuming that you've never tried the "are-enn-pee" (as you disparagingly put it) that you are commenting on?

I just want to be clear, because your post sounds like you have actually tried it.

JR.
What is so disparaging about are-enn-pee? It is simply a phonetic spelling of the name. And haven't you asked this question of me before and received an answer from me? I think you have..

No I have not tried one. But not because I don't want to but because the company won't send one to me to review, citing being back ordered on them as the reason. But even this reason (which I regard as a huge load, like one unit would make a difference) is IMO, nothing more than an excuse.

If I were to get one I would be willing to give it a shot and if it came up to snuff, I would post a review saying so and I would shut the hell up. If it didn’t meet my expectations, I would post samples of it in use as I do with all the things I get. I try to let the members hear these things and have an opportunity to make their own decisions. I can only conclude that the company doesn’t want this to occur, preferring to keep the distribution limited and the ability to hear it in action before purchasing non existent.

There are several reasons I have for not accepting the hype generated about it. One is the only people I have ever heard educated, knowledgeable comments from, are either friends of the owner of the company advertisers or a dealer of the product. Another is that several designers whose work I respect, say it is really nothing more than the same type of design that is found in many small format mixers. Last is power supply issues. The thing is capable of running on a wide range of low voltages and at either polarity. This makes it suspect in my book. While it is certainly as good as a Wackie pre, it costs much more than one. I think the price is inflated and that it would be more in line with the pres in the $100 to $ 200 range. Once again, if I am wrong, all the company has to do is send me one. I would gladly eat my words if I am wrong. To me the question is not if I am wrong or right on this subject but does this thing really sound as good as they claim it does?

Originally posted by Kurt Foster:
What is so disparaging about are-enn-pee?

You're kidding, right?

And haven't you asked this question of me before and received an answer from me? I think you have..

I think I have not.

No I have not tried one.

I won't bother repeating my comments about close-mindedness from another thread.

Have you tried their compressor?

Originally posted by jroberts:

Originally posted by Kurt Foster:
What is so disparaging about are-enn-pee?

You're kidding, right?

And haven't you asked this question of me before and received an answer from me? I think you have..

I think I have not.

No I have not tried one.

I won't bother repeating my comments about close-mindedness from another thread.

Have you tried their compressor? No I am not kidding. Anything you see as disparaging is being read into by you. It doesn't come from me. Can you offer a better phonetic spelling of the initials? If you can I will use that just to make you happy.

Regarding my closed mindedness, that goes to show you knew the answer to the question before you asked. Once again I would be willing to listen to one if they would send one out.. it's not my fault I have no way to hear it. It's not my fault that distribution is tightly controlled so the only way to get a chance to hear one is to purchase it. But I am not about to spend 500 bucks on something I have never heard. I don't buy guitars mail order either.

No I have not tried the comp either and even if I had, it's apples and oranges. Comps and Eq’s don't require as robust a power supply as mic pres do. I have heard great comps from companies that also manufacture dismal mic pres.

Originally posted by Kurt Foster:
... it's not my fault I have no way to hear it. It's not my fault that distribution is tightly controlled so the only way to get a chance to hear one is to purchase it. But I am not about to spend 500 bucks on something I have never heard. I don't buy guitars mail order either.

But why would you slam it if you hadn't heard it? Why wouldn't you just reserve judgement?

No I have not tried the comp either and even if I had, it's apples and oranges. Comps and Eq’s don't require as robust a power supply as mic pres do. I have heard great comps from companies that also manufacture dismal mic pres.

I was just wondering why you don't slam the comp as much as the pre.

Kurt, you make the comment that it's not any better than a "Wackie" but you've never tried it. Come on. You're better than that. Harvey Gerst, who has heard just about everthing, loves it. Mercenary and Atlas both carry it, which is no small endorsement. I own the RNP and can tell you that it's a significant improvement over a Mackie.

I did not say it's not any better than a Mackie. What I said was "none of these inexpensive (not just the are-enn-pee) are significantly better than the pres found in many small format mixers, despite all the hype saying the opposite."

Harvey Gerst, who has heard just about everthing, loves it.

Harvey may have heard everything but he and I don't agree on what sounds good. Harvey had a hand in desiging some CAD mics which I dislike quite a bit. he also designed some amps for Acoustic, which I also have never been wild for.

Mercenary and Atlas both carry it, which is no small endorsement.

It's funny that you mention that. I have yet to see Fletcher say anything positive about any product that he doesn't sell. He also has made negative remarks regarding some pieces that I like quite a bit like the Millennia STT-1, which he again does not sell. He is a gear dealer. Of course he is going to chat up the are-enn-pee and everything else he carries. All while slaming stuff he doesn't have. I expect that. To do otherwise would be bad business on his part. Fletcher is not stupid. He is also friends with the eff-emm-arrs owner. He has to have something to sell to the low end buyers or lose their dollars. But I absolutely would not look to Fletcher or Mercenary for unbiased opinons.

I on the other hand am completely independent. I sell no products and recive no compensation for any of the reviews I write. I do not get paid to moderate ar RO or write reviews. I do this simply for the love of the work although I sometimes wonder why I would want to subject myself to so much critique and in some cases abuse.

In spite of the fact that the owner of RO (Chris) has begun dealing gear, the review process is completely independent. It actually works the other way around. If I find something that impresses me, Chris sometimes takes the lead and tries to get a dealeship for that product.

I don't clear any reviews through Chris before I publish them in the E Mag. This process is completely seperated from the operation of the RO bb and Sebatron Canada.

I actually have received gear I hated and refused to write reviews for. I post audio samples of all the gear I get. I choose to let others hear for themselves what the stuff sounds like. Make their own desicions independently from mine. If they come to a different conclusion, fine. To each his own.

Once again I say I would love to hear the are-enn-pee.. all they have to do is send one out and I will give it a fair listen. But I am not going to purchase one unheard..

Wes said at the beginning:

Price per channel-wise, the JLM is on par with the RNP

US$1900 divided by 8 = $237.50
Less than half the price per channel of an RNP.
Whispers to Fred: If you can hold out till spring, save up & get a JLM.
Regards,
Tom

US$1900 divided by 8 = $237.50
Less than half the price per channel of an RNP.

FWIW (and with no opinion on the quality of any of the products under discussion as I haven't heard a one of them), the RNP is a two channel preamp that sells for $475 from Mercenary. So $475 divided by 2 = $237.00 per channel. You could buy the FMR and have enough money left over for a second rate subliterate rapper.

It is with incredibly great trepidation that I tiptoe through this minefield. I'm sure I will regret this in the morning.

But, Kurt, saying that you will continue to slam a product you freely admit you have never heard unless the manufacturer shows you the respect you deserve by sending you a review unit...

Sorry, it just doesn't sound ethical. It smacks of coercion or blackmail. At the very least, abuse of power. And while you may not care in the slightest, it plays directly into the hands of your critics.

Take into consideration that this perception is coming from someone who considers herself a friend. I can only imagine how those less friendly might view it.

I'm hoping that I misread something somewhere.
:(

Originally posted by Kurt Foster:

The point that I repeatedly try to make is, none of these inexpensive (not just the are-enn-pee) are significantly better than the pres found in many small format mixers, despite all the hype saying the opposite.

For what it's worth I do have an RNP, a mackie and a soundtracs desk.

The RNP is significantly superior to the pre's in either desk.

No I do not sell their gear.

No I do not know anyone involved in FMR audio.

Cheers,

Ragged.

I like my FMR RNP. The thing I like it with most of all is mic'ing acoustic guitar. I like the flavor and sonic fidelity.

Right now, I've got a Millennia TD-1, Grace 101, A Designs MP-2, Great River MP-2NV and a Sebatron vmp-2000e in the rack. I'm not going to say the RNP is the best pre of the bunch. But, I've never thought once about selling it. It's got a nice flavor and quality fidelity that I like. For me, I like it on acoustic guitar so that's where it gets a lot of use. YMMV.

Steve
http://www.mojopie.com

Dammit SwellJoe...you win by 50 cents!
My mistake...I was thinking it was a single channel...who knows why.
I should know better...I've got some pikz with the lid off.
Just ignorant I guess.
My apologies to whoever!
:w:
Regards,
Tom

Don't you people get tired of rehashing the same ole' question and response day after day after day after day after day........If you like the RNP buy it and shut up.

Quit asking for approval from Kurt. If you don't agree with him, fine. I'm married to the man and he knows I don't always agree with what he says and does but you people just don't quit.

If you use the search function you will see this topic has been rehashed at least 20 times since I became a member! Read the old threads and stop this nonsense.

Attack, attack, hate and discontent. Is this why you post on the BB's?
(Dead Link Removed)
Treena

I hope no one else views anything I have ever said as motivated by hatred. :(

no, don't worry white swan, you're a really nice person.

Originally posted by white swan:
I hope no one else views anything I have ever said as motivated by hatred. :(

What makes you think I would single you out from the group?

Treena

This whole RNP question is beaten to death. As somebody who has an RNP, a Sebatron 2000e, a Universal Audio 2-610, a Mackie 24/4 SR, a Studio Projects VTB-1, and a Pro Control 24 at the studio I will reiterate my take on these many fine products.
1. RNP: Excellent uncolored preamp. Better than VTB-1, Focusrite (in the Pro Control), or Mackie.

2. Sebatron: Excellent, versatile preamp. Detailed, clean if using pads to control input, distorts nicely if hot.

3. Studio Projects VTB-1: OK, better than Mackie, makes me about as happy as the Focusrites in the Pro Control. Good value at $129 if you have to buy an outboard pre and don't want to save a little more for the RNP (seems as usable to me as anything else under the RNP and you can't beat the price).

4. Focusrite (in the Pro Control): I am not particularly impressed with the Focusrite stuff at this level (Platinum). The VTB-1 is just as acceptable and cheaper, and the RNP kills them. The Pro Control is a great interface for Pro Tools, but I feel the quality of the preamps lowers the value overall. I wish they had gone with no-name preamps and knocked the price down.

5. Mackie: Usable, of course, in the sense that they function, but really at the bottom of the group. Totally usable for home recording, but not going to get you super-pro results. It should be acknowledged that Mackie has been an innovative and budget-friendly presence in the marketplace. I won't say they make the best budget mixers in the market, but they had a lot to do with making that market in the first place. Anyone want to say that Mackie HASN'T had an effect on the audio market?

6. Universal Audio 2-610: Wonderful, big, makes you happy you have ears on the side of your head. Is it worth the extra cash vs. the Sebatron? I am not sure because I haven't had enough time with the Seb to figure that out. Either way you are going to be happy.

From now on I am just going to copy/paste this reply whenever I see this topic. David

Any particular reason why my last post was deleted?

Originally posted by brad dowd:
Any particular reason why my last post was deleted?

Brad,
I have no idea,
I came online at 10 am. Please repost it.

White Swan,
I don't think I am slamming the product mentioned. I just point out that, judging from what designers and electronics whiz's I speak with have said, that it's not all it's cracked up to be. Doc's evaluation carries a lot more weight with me that all the people who have never heard any other pre that one in their Wackies. At least he has some other pres to compare it to.

The advertising on the product makes it seem as if it is to be compared with Neves, API, Grace, and Great River pre. I am sure that is not the case as if it were why wouldn't it be killing the competition in the marketplace. Why don't we see Bob Rock carrying a rack of these things into a studio that has a SSL?

For those reasons and because the company refuses to allow their product to be compared side by side with the Amek Neve 9098, Millennia STT-1, Sebatron vmp and now JLM pres, I am suspicious of the hype. Hey as I said before, all they have to do is send one out. Who knows, it just may be the best thing since individually wrapped hot dogs! But I can't say that until I have heard it. But I also won't sit idly by while people who don't know the difference between it and time honored standards tout it as something great just because EFF-EEM-ARR says it's so..

[ October 30, 2003, 01:51 PM: Message edited by: Kurt Foster ]

I have to say I'm sick of this topic myself, but there are a few people here on this thread who could put it to rest. Those of you who own a R.N.P. along with other mic pre's (specificly Mackie, Sebatron, Mellenia, Great River, Grace, and other high end pres) please take an hour or so when you have time and record some comparisons similar to what Kurt did for the Sebatron. More than one instrument would be even better. This would give us all the ability to make the judgment for ourselves. I'm sure many people would be greatful for your efforts and your personal opinion of the shootout.

Or better yet, someone send your pre to Kurt for a week. I'm almost at the point where I'm going to buy one and drop ship it to Kurt so we can stop hearing this stuff over and over. Are they really backordered?

Originally posted by Idjiit:
Or better yet, someone send your pre to Kurt for a week. I'm almost at the point where I'm going to buy one and drop ship it to Kurt so we can stop hearing this stuff over and over. Are they really backordered?

If you were to purchase one, it would be interesting to see how fast you got it. Hmmmmm know whut I mean??

I myself am as tired of this as anyone else is. But in good conscious I can't allow myself to sit idly by while this thing is hyped up to be the best thing that has hit the face of the planet by friends of the manufacturer and those who sell it. Especially when I know for sure there are other products available that are really good. Like I said, if it turns out to be as good as some seem to think it is, I would welcome it with arms wide open. There is no one who would like to see plenty of affordable quality equipment available, more than me. I would love to be able to tell that talented kid who is purchasing gear with his allowance that the RNP would be a good choice. Unfortunately, FMR has not allowed me to be able to do this. Lets all chip in a get one and then raffle it off when we finish with it to recoup the cost and refund everyone. I'm not sure if this is legal but I sure we could figure out a way to do this that wouldn't break the law.. I'm as curious and anyone.. K.

[ October 30, 2003, 03:51 PM: Message edited by: Kurt Foster ]

I think I may take a stab at doing a "test" this weekend, though it would only be against a humble API... well, okay, I guess I should barrow my friend mackie to make it a little more interesting. Sounds like a plan!?

Man I sure am glad there are all these people looking out for us, ready to call BS before they even smell it.

Just one of those useful threads, is it??

Originally posted by Yon:
I think I may take a stab at doing a "test" this weekend, though it would only be against a humble API... well, okay, I guess I should barrow my friend mackie to make it a little more interesting. Sounds like a plan!?

Yon,
I think that would be great. Bass and acoustic guitar would be useful IMO. An 87 is a great mic for these types of comparisons. A sound we all are familiar with..

While the U87 is a great and standard mic for the RNP test, it seems to me that it is unlikely that most who are going to buy a RNP will ever have, use or buy a U87. An additional more common used mic would also be helpful.

I suggested an 87 because it is a known quanity. What do you have in mind Gaff? I am willing to adjust .. K.

How about a mic that sounds good!

My U87 is mostly for show. It doesn't usually get picked against the shure KSM44

Either way, you can't really do this kind of test.

The questions should be:
"Is the XYZ preamp a reliable and useful piece of gear?"

Possible answers:
a. No mine broke when I first turned it on.
b. Yes works great for what I do. You should try it out and send it back if you are not happy.

One cannot compare various mic. preamps given all the variables:
- I use it for acoustic in a live room.
- you use for acoustic in a dead room
- I am making a metal mix
- you are making a folk album
- the singer nailed the first take with my pre
- the singer moved a half inch and didn't quite nail the take on your pre.

and on and on and on......

These are all colors in the crayon box. Good depends on what you need and what you do.

The RNP is a reliable capable, relatively neutral pre. That is probably a good choice for a studio on a budget. Besides moving a mic 1/2" will change the sound a lot more than switching pre's will.

:c:

Steve

Stevie YOU DA MAN.....No Really ...YOU ROCK!

Anybody really read what Steve said...And Recorderman said on another thread today.....

Moving a mic 2" changes things more than changing pre-amps.............GAWD I LOVE THAT!!!

and like the recorderman.....gimme a good room and 16 SM57's and a mixer and I'll make a record that sounds great.....as long as the songs are.

OH YEAH....also....THANX to Doc for his review and to Mojo Steve for his....These are guys with choices so they gotta know somethin....eh luceee

Originally posted by Kurt Foster:
I suggested an 87 because it is a known quanity. What do you have in mind Gaff? I am willing to adjust .. K.

The U87 is fine, I just thought the combo was sort of ironic and amusing. I don't know what to suggest? Mabe something in addition to the U87, that more people are likley to have or buy. Wouldn't want to go to low quality, mabe something like a AT 4050, TLM 103, C451, SM57/SM58, SM81?

I think Steve's post provides some much needed perspective.

As a lot of people have pointed out, FMR is not really stopping anyone from comparing their preamp to a Neve or a Millennia. (Or a piece of swiss cheese for that matter. I know which one I'd pick to melt over some toast, though. And yes, that's without even tasting it.) They just aren't sending us a review unit.

Maybe they don't send it to any internet reviewers. Maybe they are singling out Kurt for reasons only they and Kurt know. All that means is that we obviously think we are more important and influencial than they do. And that's an argument that is neither very interesting nor easily proveable.

I don't blame anyone for getting tired of discussing issues that have been hacked to death. Unfortunately, part of the dynamic nature of a bulletin board that proudly welcomes a constant influx of new members is there is going to be a lot of repetition of questions and issues. Maybe if we had a better search engine...

Maybe now that Kurt has admitted he respects Dave Doc's opinion about the RNP this whole thing will go away.

In the end we are all artists. (Well, some of us...). That means we feel things very strongly, and express ourselves, at times, flamboyantly. Some of us are prone to overstatement and hyperbole. So it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone if others react to our flamboyance equally flamboyantly.

That doesn't mean we have to call out the SWAT team, accuse them of being Al Qaeda members using this forum to sabotage Western society, or otherwise try to gang up and bully anyone into submission, just because we don't like something about their style and substance. For example, I was perfectly happy both teasing and debating Cheap Bastard on his post, but felt badly when it turned into a lynch mob, and was ashamed of my unintended contribution to that result. Especially when he has since shown to be thoughtful and intelligent.

Sorry for the rant. Long day and I'm cranky.

and like the recorderman.....gimme a good room and 16 SM57's and a mixer and I'll make a record that sounds great

Hey, I started out using a beat up used Peavey 16x4x2 MKIII mixer, a dozen SM57's, 3 SM58's, 16-ch/100ft snake (which was the guts of my PA system) and a Teac 2-ch reel deck to do live garage recordings of friends and other wankers where I mixed (with no outboard or effects) in the backyard on headphones. The money from those gigs bought me a brand Tascam 244 Portastudio and a Roland Space Echo that I still own. The thousands of hours I spent with that gear gave me more fun, insight, and experience about recording and mixing that anything else I've ever done.