Highly recommend the UA6176 over the Avalon 737, especially for vocals. The compressor on the UA (1176LN)is the big feature on this box, EQ is basic, Pre is nice but a little noisy due to the tube I suspect. Summit?

Nick

http://www.summitaudio.com
go see it

Originally posted by AEW:
... Summit?

Nick

not sure what the pricetag is on that summit but I would certainly do alot of shopping before dropping $1k+ have you listened to BA's or Vintechs? API's if your wanting decent "rock-N-roll" pres specially for drums :)

whats your application? a universal pre?....vocals? strings? drums? do you *need* an EQ or compressor in the box?

There are soo many options out there in the $1k-$1.5k range.

Check out the tech talk forum....alot of us are always in the process of building our own pre's...I know some neve projects are about to start, API and im about ready to build a few original 610A's :) you could probably do 2 or 3 for the price of one :D

Rock, pop/rock.

I need more for vocals, and i need Compressor and EQ.

Originally posted by scenaria:
...

whats your application? a universal pre?....vocals? strings? drums? do you *need* an EQ or compressor in the box?

There are soo many options out there in the $1k-$1.5k range.

...

6176 is dirtier than the 737. But that's not a bad thing. They both have a good compressor, but an 1176 is hard to pass up...especially if you dont already have one. Plus you can use the 1176 as a standalone unit by flipping a switch. The Avalon has a better eq. Much more flexible. It's also probably a bit silkier with a more round low end. The opto compressor is more geared toward vocals, and probably more transparent, but certainly can be used for other things. An 1176 makes things sound a bit more aggressive.

I guess I don't understand why you need an EQ or a compressor in a 24 bit world, other than as an effect.

I would worry more about what you want the pre to do, if it comes with an EQ then thats gravy.

I have UA M610, beutiful aggressive sound
Earthworks 1022 - super clean amazing for acoustic instruments

Focusrite Red 1 - probably my best sounding general purpose pre.

Sebatron vmp200e - a very very sweet tube pre. has lots of charactor.could become my favorite mic pre soon.

Back to my earlier comments: I guess I can see using a little EQ when tracking and the UA610 and Sebatron both have very nice EQ for a little touchup.

I just don't see any need to use an external compressor anymore. If you track at -18dBFS you get 20dB of headroom, 90 dB of S/N and your pre gets to run in its absolute sweet spot. What could be better??

I sold all my compressors.

As someone who used to own a Summit Audio MPC-100A I can tell you that the mic pre is very good but the compressor sucks. If you want the same kind of mic pre sound of the MPC-100a (which is a variant of the 990 opamp) get John Hardy M1. You need to decide if you want colored, color-less, or something in the middle. If your looking for both a mic pre and compressor and maybe even an eq as well, there are less choices but still some very good choices.

I own and really like these:
Vintech X81 (Neve 1073 type of sound with 4-band eq)
Focusrite Red-7 Micpre/Comp/De-esser/Exciter The real workhorse for anything.
API 512C micpre and 525 comp. Jaw Dropping big & Phat.
AMEK CIB Micpre/Comp/Eq One of the best channel strips made. The eq alone is worth the price.
Manley VoxBox Tube Micpre/comp/eq. Nice , warm tube tone.
And not quite as good as the others but the best bang for the buck, Joe Meek VC1Qcs Micpre/comp/eq/exciter.

Don't think that you have to have an all-in-one-box. Mix and match offers great flexability.

If you're considering the 737 you're in the $2k price range. If you can squeeze $500 more, look at the Millennia Media Origin STT-1. Many options in one box - tube or solid state pre, opto compressor and eq.

Check it out here:

http://www.mil-media.com/docs/products/origin.shtml

Hi AudioGaff:
How do you like that x81. I've never actually used one but on theory I love it. I've always preferred the class 'A' neve sound of 1073'ish pre's but when it comes to kick and other things, liked the EQ on the class 'A/B' 1081's. So a unit (even if it is "new") that combined these and at a reasonable cost would be a win-win as far as I'm concerned.

the X81 is class A right ? so it would be like a 1073 and an 1081 combined ?

For a little over $1k, Universal Audio 2108, excellent for drums and just as satifying with vocals. The soft saturation sounds great and you can get a great range of tones from this pre.

Hi AudioGaff:
How do you like that x81.

I think it's great, and find that it indeed sounds like a 1073. But I should also say that solunds to me like a new 1073. Meaning that it ever so slightly sounds cleaner, faster, harder. Old 1073's often don't even sound the same, but the ones my partner has sound more slow, lazy and have a little more variance in tone when you hit them hard or very hard transients but I'm talking about some very minor/subtle differences.

the X81 is class A right ? so it would be like a 1073 and an 1081 combined ?

Yes. The X73 and X81 have the same mic pre. The X81 has the same kind of eq as the 1081.

Originally posted by AudioGaff:
As someone who used to own a Summit Audio MPC-100A I can tell you that the mic pre is very good but the compressor sucks. If you want the same kind of mic pre sound of the MPC-100a (which is a variant of the 990 opamp) get John Hardy M1. You need to decide if you want colored, color-less, or something in the middle. If your looking for both a mic pre and compressor and maybe even an eq as well, there are less choices but still some very good choices.

I own and really like these:
Vintech X81 (Neve 1073 type of sound with 4-band eq)
Focusrite Red-7 Micpre/Comp/De-esser/Exciter The real workhorse for anything.
API 512C micpre and 525 comp. Jaw Dropping big & Phat.
AMEK CIB Micpre/Comp/Eq One of the best channel strips made. The eq alone is worth the price.
Manley VoxBox Tube Micpre/comp/eq. Nice , warm tube tone.
And not quite as good as the others but the best bang for the buck, Joe Meek VC1Qcs Micpre/comp/eq/exciter.

Don't think that you have to have an all-in-one-box. Mix and match offers great flexability.

Focusrite RED7 does everything superbly! except clean it's own scratchy pots! lol

Originally posted by Bret:
Focusrite RED7 does everything superbly! except clean it's own scratchy pots! lol

I've had my RED7 for over 6-years and the pots on mine still all work fine. My Brother has owns the RED1, RED2, RED3 for almost as long and has never had any problem with scratchy pots either.

Originally posted by AudioGaff:

Originally posted by Bret:
Focusrite RED7 does everything superbly! except clean it's own scratchy pots! lol

I've had my RED7 for over 6-years and the pots on mine still all work fine. My Brother has owns the RED1, RED2, RED3 for almost as long and has never had any problem with scratchy pots either. I have had my RED7 and RED2 for 8 years now...after a year, pots on both started to get scratchy, called Focusrite service(before digi.)
and was told, the pots could have sat around on the factory shelves for a couple years in humid conditions before units were built,and good luck! guess I'm still suffering the trauma of breakin these beasts open and servicing them myself!
Pots have worked fine since. Cramolin Gold I think it was.

Originally posted by sdevino:

Focusrite Red 1 - probably my best sounding general purpose pre.

Sebatron vmp200e - a very very sweet tube pre. has lots of charactor.could become my favorite mic pre soon.

Steve,
I am with you when it comes to the Sebatron VMP.. I gave it such a good review that no one wanted to believe me. I was almost crucified for saying so many the good things about it but everyone is coming around now that they are getting a chance to hear it! I am currently waiting for a Sebatron "Thorax" to be sent to me.. I am very interested to see what Sebatrons slant on EQ and compression is..

As far as the Focusrite Red, check out Joe Malones JLM TMP8! This is an 8 channel compact mic pre that is of the "Red Range" type / design. I recived one the other day and I have to say it is another great mic pre.. Those Aussies seem to have this mic pre design thing down pat! The TMP8 retails at $1850 USD (I know it's not peanuts but that's for 8 channels!). You can learn more at the JLM website, http://www.jlmaudio.com ... Kurt

If you want solid state, i would recommend the API channel strip thingy (the model number escapes me) that has a mic pre, 550EQ and compressor.

if you want all tube (and, unlike most others, REALLY all tube) the Manley VoxBox is terrific (at commensurate cost)

does it have to be all in one?
Buy a Geoff Daking mic pre/eq and add an API 525 compressor or one of Geoff's compressors and have a great all discrete chain that can do anything.

No one has mentioned the Vipre yet...or a DWFearn.....Or how about a Drawmer 1969 merc.ed.

Its an endless list...the Daking stuff is stellar as is the John Hardy and I am very impressed with the Millennia gear.

I need a nice Tube sound :)

With Compressor and EQ.

Gabriel,
Sebatron is about to release the "Thorax" channel strip. This is a vmp series tube mic pre, a tube EQ and compressor.. all in one "channel strip" box.. I will be getting one for review as soon as they start coming off the assembly line. I am looking forward to this box with anticipation... Kurt

The Focusrite ISA series price has dropped quite alot and it's worth having a look. I'm looking at the ISA 428 this weekend (there's a write-up on this pre in May edition of Sound on Sound.....sounds good), it's a quad with a variable high pass filter (16 Hz to 420Hz)...ok no eq and compressor but it's cheap and 4 pres in one box.

Nick

Originally posted by sdevino:
I guess I don't understand why you need an EQ or a compressor in a 24 bit world, other than as an effect.

Back to my earlier comments: I guess I can see using a little EQ when tracking and the UA610 and Sebatron both have very nice EQ for a little touchup.

I just don't see any need to use an external compressor anymore. If you track at -18dBFS you get 20dB of headroom, 90 dB of S/N and your pre gets to run in its absolute sweet spot. What could be better??

I sold all my compressors.

Interesting comments. So you obviously don't feel any need to track at levels approaching "Digital Zero"? I was under the impression you had to record really hot in the digital domain to take advantage of the bit depth. I'd like to see you elaborate a bit. Personally I find my compressors indispensible, and using them on channel inserts and/or the 2-bus seems to improve my mixes quite a bit. Thanks.

24-bit == 144dB of space between Digital 0dB and your quantization noise... Lower volumes can be accomodated comfortably with few ill-effects and the level can be brought up later.

That wasn't the case with 16-bit recording - Track at -20dB and you can easily hear the noise. Especially as a cumulative effect.

Originally posted by falkon2:
24-bit == 144dB of space between Digital 0dB and your quantization noise... Lower volumes can be accomodated comfortably with few ill-effects and the level can be brought up later.

That wasn't the case with 16-bit recording - Track at -20dB and you can easily hear the noise. Especially as a cumulative effect.

My concern didn't relate to noise. I was thinking more in terms of sonic detail and three-dimensionality.

Originally posted by Gabriel Sousa:
I need a nice Tube sound :)

With Compressor and EQ.

I highly recommend the Manley VoxBox. It has all that stuff. My only gripe is the compressor's attack time seems a little slow for some things. But for vocals,gutiars, bass, etc.. it's great.

The Vox Box is terrific, but why do you "NEED" a tube unit?

What if an equivalent transistor unit sounded better?
What's the paticular need for tubes?
just trying to understand...

remember the Ark was FICTION and the Titanic wasn't.

Well I would wait for a bit, because it seems a lot of high end Neve pres are dropping their prices. Amek, Focusrite ISA for example.
Now that could be only here in Australia, but we're talking around $1k.

Nick

Kurt, do have any idea if what the release date for the Thorax might be? I just went to Seb's site and couldn't find anything on it.

I have not heard.. I thought it was supposed to be released in July originally, but Sebatron wrote me saying it is still being developed.. good things come to those who wait, although I must admit to being anxious to see it!! I believe it's a vmp mic pre, an opto comp and a Sebatron TUBE EQ all in one box.. I have no idea what the price will be, in case that is the next question you ask, but no matter how much it costs (I think it will be quite reasonable considering all that it will do) I want one.. If it sounds anywhere as good as the vmp-4000 does, it will be a great piece of gear..

I think Sebatron's designs are destined to become classics. Dispite the attempts of some to slam them in public, more and more pro engineers are getting these wonderful pres in their hands and the reports are flooding in all positve..

[ August 19, 2003, 12:32 PM: Message edited by: Kurt Foster ]

Originally posted by bunny:

Originally posted by sdevino:
I guess I don't understand why you need an EQ or a compressor in a 24 bit world, other than as an effect.

Back to my earlier comments: I guess I can see using a little EQ when tracking and the UA610 and Sebatron both have very nice EQ for a little touchup.

I just don't see any need to use an external compressor anymore. If you track at -18dBFS you get 20dB of headroom, 90 dB of S/N and your pre gets to run in its absolute sweet spot. What could be better??

I sold all my compressors.

Interesting comments. So you obviously don't feel any need to track at levels approaching "Digital Zero"? I was under the impression you had to record really hot in the digital domain to take advantage of the bit depth. I'd like to see you elaborate a bit. Personally I find my compressors indispensible, and using them on channel inserts and/or the 2-bus seems to improve my mixes quite a bit. Thanks. I will leave the compressor discussion as a separate topic other than to say, I use lots of compression when its called for but I use plugins rather than outboard.

There is no need to track hot in digital in order to get "full sonic quality". I hve posted detail about this in other places so I do not want to side track this thread too much. The simple form of it is:
- a 24 bit converter has 256X the resolution of a 16 bit converter at any level. It can resolve 1/16,777,216 th of full scale at full scale, half scale or -90 dBFS.

- at -18 dBFS the 24 bit converter has better THD+Noise than 2 inch tape.
- Tracking hotter risks overs which sound bad, and pushes your analog signal chain really hard, which may also sound bad.
- So just track where your analog stuff sounds good and don't worry about the digital, it likes the headroom and has way more than enough S/N.

Steve

Please remove my post. Thanks. Edited 8/27/03 by sc1767.

[ August 27, 2003, 03:09 PM: Message edited by: sc1767 ]

Originally posted by sdevino:

Originally posted by sdevino:
I guess I don't understand why you need an EQ or a compressor in a 24 bit world, other than as an effect.

I will leave the compressor discussion as a separate topic other than to say, I use lots of compression when its called for but I use plugins rather than outboard. .......

There is no need to track hot in digital in order to get "full sonic quality". I hve posted detail about this in other places so I do not want to side track this thread too much. The simple form of it is:
- a 24 bit converter has 256X the resolution of a 16 bit converter at any level. It can resolve 1/16,777,216 th of full scale at full scale, half scale or -90 dBFS.

- at -18 dBFS the 24 bit converter has better THD+Noise than 2 inch tape.
- Tracking hotter risks overs which sound bad, and pushes your analog signal chain really hard, which may also sound bad.
- So just track where your analog stuff sounds good and don't worry about the digital, it likes the headroom and has way more than enough S/N.
Steve

My experience has shown me that when I track in the DAW at -16 when I get to mix I don't have enough volume on the tracks to drive the 2-bus to -2dB.. I like to record my tracks at -6dB. This allows enough headroom for extra processing if needed and lets me keep the channel faders at or near 0dB when mixing. This translates to less processing by the DAW and smoother sound.

I use outboard comps and pres because I feel they sound better. The day the plugs happen that work as well as my Urei's, Sebatron and Neves, then I will abandon them. Until then, I will continue to use them on the way in.

When I record, I usually have a vision before I track. I KNOW what it will sound like when I mix it. This is one reason my typical tracking date is about 6 hours and a typical mixing session is about three.. I mixed the all the Kenny "Blue" Ray records in one sitting each, usually 6 to 8 hours for 14 selections. ... Pretty much, it is set the faders in a straight line and roll the 2 track..

This all comes with experience and for sure is not as profitable as a session of unending tweaking of eq, compression and level setting.. but for me I hate to take any longer than necessary to do any task.. I hate working.

The new recordist may wish to use the pure, no eq, no compression approach when they start recording and mixing but as they gain experience, develop work habits, approaches and their "sound", cutting with eq and compression can be a real short cut, saving a lot of time. But you have to be confident in your abilities and have a good idea where you are going to end up.

[ August 19, 2003, 02:41 PM: Message edited by: Kurt Foster ]

Kurt I don't know why you make this so black and white.

I who choose to record straight in with no external compression also "have vision" and have most of my mixer set up with the compressors and EQ asnd FX I think I will need when I track.

I have also done lots of mixes in short order, but its not due to vision, its due to doing what it takes. If the mix is done in an hour then so be it, if the vocals need fader rides, there are 14 layers of guitar to build into a 3-dimensional space and 8 tracks of BG Vox then the mix is probably going to take longer than 1 to 3 hours.

[="http://www.graniterocks.com/Files/BeLikeThatToMe.mp3"]6 hour mix[/]="http://www.graniter…"]6 hour mix[/]

[[url=http://="http://www.graniter…"]1 Hour Mix[/]="http://www.graniter…"]1 Hour Mix[/]

I have no rules other than no smoking or drugs in the studio. My job is to deliver a result the customer is thrilled with and that completes the customer's vision, not mine. I use whatever technique or sound is called for.

As far as plugins and external gear, use what you are familiar with and have. I do not try to get an "LA2" or "Fairchild" sound. I just work with what I have and do my best to get it to sound great. I am VERY happy with RenComp, L2, C4, Mc2000 and my UA plugins and I really don't care if they sound anything like anything vintage.

I find when I track lower I get a more 3D, warmer sounding mix. Getting to master level is what the Msstering guys do. If I have to master I have some great tools for that as well.

Now lets change the subject back to mic pres.

[ August 19, 2003, 03:35 PM: Message edited by: sdevino ]

Steve,
I regret that you interpreted that as being directed towards you personally. I was pointing out that those who are embarking on their first expierences in mixing should try to visualise what they want in the end. In no way was I aiming my comments in your direction.

You have your way of approaching a task and I have mine.. You are free to explaine your approach and I should not be any less free to describe mine. That is the nature of a BB. I think that it is great that you can get great product from what you have, after all that is what it is all about. No one is the last word on it all.

It is plain for all to see that you and I both have different approaches. I have the bulk of my investment in dedicated hardware, mics and front end gear, mostly because I had a lot of this stuff left over from my analog studio. I have spent a paltry sum on my computer, interfaces and recording software.. (about $3200 total). You have chosen to spend the bulk of your cash on a Mac and a full blown Pro Tools system ($20k?). But we both end up with at 16 bit CD a 44.1. Kurt

[ August 19, 2003, 04:01 PM: Message edited by: Kurt Foster ]

Originally posted by Kurt Foster:
Steve,
I regret that you interpreted that as being directed towards you personally. I was pointing out that those who are embarking on their first expierences in mixing should try to visualise what they want in the end. In no way was I aiming my comments in your direction.

You have your way of approaching a task and I have mine.. You are free to explaine your approach and I should not be any less free to describe mine. That is the nature of a BB. I think that it is great that you can get great product from what you have, after all that is what it is all about. No one is the last word on it all.

It is plain for all to see that you and I both have different approaches. I have the bulk of my investment in dedicated hardware, mics and front end gear, mostly because I had a lot of this stuff left over from my analog studio. I have spent a paltry sum on my computer, interfaces and recording software.. (about $3200 total). You have chosen to spend the bulk of your cash on a Mac and a full blown Pro Tools system ($20k?). But we both end up with at 16 bit CD a 44.1. Kurt

Excellent points on all fronts Kurt. :tu:

One small point, Steve...
when you say there's no need to record "hot" in "digital" to get a full sound... that is largely true with 24 bit digital.
But in 16 bit digital, there is ample reason to fill as many bits as possible or the sound thinning is quite apparent.

so while it may not be necessary to fry the signal going into ProTools HD, one still wants to record a DAT mix as loud as reasonably possible.

on older versions of ProTools, as well, it was quite obvious that when one pulled an onscreen 'fader' down really low, the resulting lesser bit depth made for a really poopy sound.