NICE!

Okay, I'm now an EV RE27 fan.

Nice, will see what I can do with my new md421.

...

I loved the EV 868, gotta have it, I already have two re27´s and they rock!, but position with those guys is vital.

Thanks for your work, Bent. We all appreciate it.

Of the samples you posted, my favorites were the RE27, which has a "squeak" that's invaluable in a kick mic, and the 868, which has guts without pushing (rather than allowing) low end through it.

These are both abstract qualities, I know, but they're imperative to my interpretation of a good rock kick drum sound. I'd love to hear these 2 together.

I'm glad you guys liked it.

I'm with you all on the RE27, that was a shock to me.
I was very happy with it's results. I expected it to sound more like the PL, but it came out more like the D2.
I really like the D2, it and the RE sounded great off the 01V through phones.

I think this about wraps up the kick drum as far as my mic selection goes.

Anyone have any requests for other parts of the drum kit?
Snare's next, I suppose.
I'm hoping within the next month to have covered each piece and the kit as a whole...

unreal. bent thank you so much. this is such a great thread and could be very useful to a very large number of people. including me!

thanks a ton!!

that re27 is my new fav
the i was disheartened by the beta91 itself though... it seemed to lack "balls" and low end.

The Audix D4 is even 'bigger' in the kick.

Wait till you hear the D2 on the snare. Kinda like an i5 on steroids witha 10" maple shell drum.

I also liked the 868.

I hate you, Bent!!!!
What, I gotta go out and buy ANOTHER mic?!?!?!? LOL!!!
I've used RE-20s for sooo many years it ain't funny. It's been so bad, I would get really ticked when somebody here would dis the RE20 for the D112 on kick. Amateurs, eh?
Now I have the hots for the 27. It has that little added presence('squeak') that Patrick mentioned that I don't get with the 20. I will certainly not be selling my RE20s ANY time, but now I have to get the 27. I was going to buy a Heil PR40, but now I'm gonna pop the added dough on the EV. At least they're on sale at BSW, where they're including the shock mount for $450.00. Ooops...

Yeah snare would be nice, over under every mic... I am sure there will be sm 57 and md 421 8-)

Great demo. The RE27 was great. I didn't think the 868 was anything special.

That being said, I wouldn't run out and get an RE27 until someone A/B'ed it with an RE20. At first, I just assumed the 27 was a more betterer 20, with increased sensitivity. Actually, its performance chart is competely different than the 20. The output on the 27 is way boosted above 2kHz, while the 20 is flat. That range probably doesn't matter for a kick drum, so for that use, an RE20 may sound just as good.

What I meant was, I wouldn't run out and buy an RE27, if I had an RE20. Sure wish you tested an AKG 414.

I am sure there will be sm 57 and md 421

Yes, of course.
And 57 / 441.
And now, D2 top and RE27 bottom, and vice-versa...
8-)

This is really great thanks so much for all your work!

This was a really great test. Another vote of thanks for all the hard work.

The only one of these that I own is the D112. Yep - that's what it sounds like raw. I got it cheap and until the last month just used it for live music. I've been recording some country and jazz drums in the last month and have been a little frustrated by its limitations. So it was interesting to hear it in comparison to this group. I like the D112 in comparison to most since I'd rather cut the boominess than boost the thump and I don't go for as much beater punch. Just my prejudice. Could probably end up in about the same place with most of them.

I definitely liked both EV mics better than the D112. Is the PL20 just an RE20 with different cosmetics? I keep going back and forth between the 20 and 27 trying to decide which I like best.

Hey Ben, when you do the snare, if you can secure a Beyer 201 be sure to include that.

Again....the D2 is gonna blow a bunch of folks minds on a well-tuned snare. D1 for jazz snare.

I thought that was a pretty cool demonstration bent. I particularly liked the last cut as it included all the instruments this time! Your stuff sounds great! All except those bass drum examples. I'm just kidding.

Actually, I can't say that I have a favorite from your demonstration? I could work with any/all of them and probably have. If the meters move and there's not lots of buzz or hum, I can make it sound good, if it already doesn't sound good.

So what microphone did you use for that wonderful rock-and-roll cut? It sounded incredible! And to think it was all recorded with a single microphone. How did you get so much stereo from a single microphone?

I like to teach so I sold my training bra.
Ms. Remy Ann David

Misposted - sorry.

Remy - got a break from the cover band action, eh?

So what microphone did you use for that wonderful rock-and-roll cut?

Oh, you mean that track by those kids that called themselves Soul'd Out?
That was recorded with one of those cool Binaural Holophonic mics I mentioned on another thread! :lol:

Kidding...
I posted that track previously, but I think I spoke incorrectly about the mics used.

I'm pretty sure the mics were as follows:
Kik - 868
Snr - SM57 up and 441 down
Hat - 81
Toms - EV468
OHL & R - Oktava MK219
Keys - Countryman FET85 DI
Guitar - 57
Bass - Behringer DI120
Sax - 421

Board: Crest HP8
A/D - Motu 24I/O
DAW - Vegas 5.0

All recorded "live" but sax, overdubbed later.

I've tried md421 on kick... nothing exciting,I think I will return it to GC and may be buy again when I am done with buying everything else. Love EV ND 868

Did you have the 421 set to M or S?

I've tried everything, every position of the knob and moving it around just enjoyd ev nd 868 more.

By the way is it a normal dry kick drum sound? I mean those ones you listed, do you get decent sound from them after equing compressing reverbing etc? If you could just show me please how to get tight clicky thumpy sound (deathclock) I would send you a beer over the internet 8-)

Haha. Dethklok's sound? Just sample a stopwatch, drum-replace, and roll off anything below 2 KHz.

well dethklok is just one of the samples 8-)How about Master of Puppets sound?

Nice clips Ben!

Try a Soundelux u195 outside the resonant head. Trust me!

For the low end thunder (a la Hotel California), but the Fat switch on.

Coming from the sound reinforcement world and playing in bands/doing gigs for 30+ years I'm trying to make the transition to the recording world.

To me the Beta 52 sounded more like what I would hear playing with a band. That's why I used it in my live system.

Does something about it "not" transfer over to recording?

I thought most of those mics sounded unnatural for a bass drum, made it sound boxy or even like a larger floor tom like an 18" not a kick.

To me the beta 52 sounded most like I would want my kick to sound like. I can hear the beater and feel the energy were it should be.

Am I missing something? Educate please, I'm confused.

the beta is ok. i always think of it as a more "versitile" kick mic than a lot of the other popular live-use kick mics (d6, d112). because you're right, it does deliver a full sound, but i cant stand it's raw tone. with the proper EQ and Compression, you can make a Beta52 do whatever you need it to do; it just requires some sculpting.

anyone wanna trade their Beta52 for my D6???

-dave

I am going to have to try the RE27 on my next it
i typically use the d112

Thanks everyone for the kind words, I'm glad you enjoyed this post.
I was a bit pressed for time which is why some of you may not hear your favorite mic in the same light.
As I state below, I did not mess too much with placement (I believe that if I did I would have ended up with a lot of different mics whose
samples all sound relatively the same to some extent, know what I mean?).
That having been said, here are a few answers to some of your questions:

Bob:

Is the PL20 just an RE20 with different cosmetics?

Near as I can tell, they are very similar in construction.
Here are their specs (I can't find originals, sorry):
RE20 - http://www.electrovoice.com/download_document.php?doc=799
PL20 - http://www.fmsystems.net/pdf/cutsheet/pl20.pdf

Gertok:

By the way is it a normal dry kick drum sound?
I mean those ones you listed, do you get decent sound from them after equing compressing reverbing etc?
If you could just show me please how to get tight clicky thumpy sound (deathclock) I would send you a beer over the internet

The samples posted are totally dry, no real attention to placement other than matching all to the same angle / height / distance from beater head,
recorded with a muffler in the drum, in a small room, with matching gain throughout.

EQ'ing them helps, as it does on all things. I admit, I'll eq the hell out of anything to make it sound the way I want.

As far as attaining a tight, clicky, thumpy Lars-ish sound -

Tight = Proper tuning and gating (short hold, fast release - there's hardly any tail on a kick like Lars').
Clicky = Mic placement / selection & 3-4Khz boost (big boost, like 3-6dB+) and a slightly boosted high shelf starting about 6K.
Another trick I'll use is some distortion on the highs - play with it, you'll feel it when you find it.
Thumpy = Mic placement / selection and low/mid scoop (150-900Hz+/-).

Patrick:

my favorites were the RE27, which has a "squeak" that's invaluable in a kick mic, and the 868, which has guts without pushing (rather than allowing) low end through it.

I totally agree with both points! I'll do some editing and throw one on a track with the other, might sound pretty cool.

Taxman:

I wouldn't run out and get an RE27 until someone A/B'ed it with an RE20.

Looking at the EV links above, based on the specs (I know, you can't go on specs alone) I think I came close using the PL20.

Big Daddy:

I thought most of those mics sounded unnatural for a bass drum, made it sound boxy or even like a larger floor tom like an 18" not a kick.
Am I missing something? Educate please, I'm confused.

I agree with your point, as well.
I honestly don't have a better answer short of what I wrote above about placement.

In all honesty, I think each of these mics will work well in the kick.
I have listened to them on my Labtec CPU speakers w/ sub, AKG44 and Sony 7506 phones, and my EV S-60s - the samples sound different on all of them.
My Labtecs, however (to steal a term from D-Dog) don't lie.
On them, they all sound like viable mics.
They all have their place on the world stage.
Some are simply better for rock or metal, some for jazz, etc...

Oh, Gertok, while I'm on the subject, ask me about fx tricks on toms.
I bet I have one that you haven't considered!
Hey, actually - that might make for a cool thread...

-Ben

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6040497400049614749&q=metallica+recording&total=2436&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

Can see if at the end is the sound of the kick comes from the mixing board or it is just a camera mic.

I just want to make sure I am getting workable kick sound before I tweek any knobs

I think it's the camera mic.

8)

could this thread and the one with the snare mics tests be pinned up???

I have also stickied this post for all to enjoy and also so Ben doesnt have to keep bumping it daily.

For those newer folks, realize that the movement of a mic inside a bassdrum of only a matter of an inch or so, can make a huge difference in the attack, the tone, and sometimes the overload of the mic itself.

Also remember that when placing a mic inside a drum, if you have help doing so, make sure they dont kick it while your head is very close in.

Ears are precious and you've only got two.

For you Cyclops out there, yes, you've got two also.

Thank you Davedog...!!!

Ok, I'll try not to start with a new thread on this.. but i just "discovered" a new kick mic. (maybe it's been around for a while, but I don't hear people talking about it much)

It's the Dual Element kick mic by Audio Technica. Anyone try this one? Logic tells me it should be a sure-thing...

http://www.audio-technica.com/cms/wired_mics/4359efa46266c7e9/index.html

http://www.audio-technica.com/cms/wired_mics/c45c0dda459dad08/index.html

This is a fantastic resource.. great stuff!!

After listening to the kick samples, I'm not hearing what a lot of the posters are saying about the RE27.. sounds kind of weak to me; kind of like hitting a piece of cardboard. Here are the ones that sound good to me i.e., they capture the true kick sound without coloration; (not in order )
- Shure Beta52 )a bit colorized but nice)
- AKG D112
- D12e
- Beta91 + D112

- sorry but all the rest sound like cardboard!
Actually none of them really capture the sound of the kick the way I hear it.. but I think it has more to do with the heads, tuning, muffling etc.
( I'm used to my Yamaha RC sound which is full and deep with attack and perfect sustain etc.. )

Yeah, I gotta admit, I play on that kick nearly every day. It takes one hell of a beating. But, 9 times out of 10, that's the kind of kick I've gotta deal with at RC when the kids show up to lay down tracks.
Actually, come to think about it, their kicks often sound worse than cardboard...

Cool test. I like the RE27 as well. It seems very well rounded. I also like how huge the Beta52 is and how tight and clicky the D2 is. They're pretty extreme. I'd be curious to hear those two combined.

mark_van_j wrote: Ok, I'll try not to start with a new thread on this.. but i just "discovered" a new kick mic. (maybe it's been around for a while, but I don't hear people talking about it much)

It's the Dual Element kick mic by Audio Technica. Anyone try this one? Logic tells me it should be a sure-thing...

http://www.audio-technica.com/cms/wired_mics/4359efa46266c7e9/index.html

http://www.audio-technica.com/cms/wired_mics/c45c0dda459dad08/index.html

I really don't want to have to start a new thread.... :D

GREAT POST!

I have to agree that some of the mice were a little boxy/carboardy for me, but I did really like the EV27. I also was glad toward the end that some people liked the 52 cause I was getting worried I was crazy. I thought the 52 was the only one that captured the proper bottom AND some click. a perfect mix of both. Maybe its also cause that's what I'm used to running so much live sound at different mid-size venues/theatres, but I like that sound.

I'd actually like to hear the 27 WITH the 52. They sound to me like they would complement each other really well. not just the overall tone, but the actual freq that are being emphasized seem like they would line up well on those.

421 - I like a lot. And on a lot of things. but i'd have to mix it with a d112 or 52 for the bottom. In fact, I think I'd have to mix any of the others with a 52 or d112 for bottom (at least with most of the records I do - rock, punk, metal)

Side note - who ever watched that metallica video, what was the gigantic mic he was singin into? That 1st one is an SM7, but for the rest of the video, what's that one? Just always curious about that stuff...