I'll go along with this...but please remember these are my opinions based on a 40 second mp3, played back in Samplitude on el cheezo PC speakers....

1. Overall sound quality pretty good...the entire example is not centered in the stereo field, averaging 3-5 degrees to the right, never really getting centered...I missed the high end a bit both on playback and on the scope...I would not even venture a guess as to your signal chain, but it kinda sounded like either an XY or ORTF a little off center to the sources....perhaps even a single point mic, cardiod, again off center...

2. The little I heard, it sounded like a pretty small room...again, impossible to guess without hearing more...I've done concert recordings (quartets, piano/violin kinda stuff) in people's homes with the same 'feel' to the environment.

3. The performers seemed to know what to do...and I think you did a good job (again from what little I heard) of not getting in the way of them...to me, that is a critical element to this kind of music; not overdoing it....

4. I'm not gonna rip ya, I'm gonna suggest though to pay critical attention to centering your main mic array...I would like to hear a bit more on the highs (assuming they were there in the 1st place)...All in all, I think you are off to a good start....

So, when you gonna spill the beans and let us know what's what?

Hi David
I think the way the bowing is captured is nice -I like this quality in the small Oktavas, when you can get a some that aren't pieces of crap. What mics did you use?

At the risk of being flamed to death, one thing I never cared much about is accuracy in stereo imaging, once the soundstage isn't dead or flat, and there is no problem here in that regard. If your mics were not really centred, and you use panning, you can end up with a situation where the timing cues and intensity based stereo aspects won't meet up and I think it's better to leave it as it is -not everybody will agree with this. I had this problem when my stereo bar began to turn clockwise very slowly during a concert, but when I tried to correct this with panning, things started to go a little weird, although this was an extreme case.

My instinct would have been to give the piano more definition, but this is by no means necessary, and could sacrifice some aspects of the overall blend, which is quite nice. I actually really like this type of piano sound, especially when it's an accompaniment/collaboration.

I really like this recording.

Nice start!

John

PS I should say here that I don't generally perceive stereo the way other people do. My left ear is not very good, yet I can hear higher frequencies with it than i can with my 'good' ear, so any remarks I make about stereo should be taken with a pinch of salt. My brother who has perfectly good hearing doesn't perceive stereo very well either, so maybe i just come from a family of freaks!

Thanks for the input guys.

Yeah, my meters showed a hang to the right, but it sounded fine to me ears, so I left it.

John, I had the same mixed feelings about the piano sound, but I ended up leaving it alone.

I'm waiting to see what the forum mods say before I spill it, but I'll let some out now.

That's Sursa Hall, the new 600 seat concert hall at Ball State University in Muncie, IN. It has variable acoustics (half live for this recording) and the entire 'shell' (the front wall) is a big QRD with a max well depth of about 1 foot. Also, this was recorded straight to two track, no post production at all.

Hi David,
a really nice recording as a documentation of a performance.

Some ideas from a rather new amateur here.

I will start out that there obviously is a lot of right things here. The musicians know how to play, the room seems good, the balance between violine and piano is right, there is no obvious hiss or other disturbances. From that point you can go on and make it even better as always.

First, the violine in my ears sounds a bit "scratchy" or "harsh" or how shall I put it. This can be from many reasons, but one of the reasons could be that you are a bit too close or not in the very sweet spot. In some directions the sound from a violine (in my small experience) can sound more "harsh" than in others. One classical position where it can sound really bad is from straight above the violine on top of a hardwood floor. There is of course quite a bit of taste involved in what you want to have here.

The "scratchiness" can also be more or less prominent depending on the kind of microphone I use. In my experience my pair of Neumann KM-184 (cardoids) tend to enhance that sound, while my pair of KM-183 (omnis) tend to diminish it. In general I have quickly become a fan of using omni mics in this kind of recordings. They sort of have very warm round, beeing there sound to them. Some of my best recording has been done with four omnis, two in the center as main mics and two outriggers to get just a little more stereo and room feeling. A jecklin disc is also a really good device for some recordings.

As for the room feeling, I sort of get the feeling that the violin is very close and the piano in a completely different room. There is almost no "room" in the violine sound, while almost too much in the piano.

Now in my mind there is a bit of post processing you can do to enhance the sound a little. The following is what I tried.
- increase left signal about 2dB to center the balance
- increase the stereo spread a little. I went to about 130% in my Samplitude effect.
- perhaps slightly lower the area around 3kHz, a few db to make it a little less harsh sounding.
- a tiny bit of room simulation will also help in smoothing things out.

There is a difficult place around 18 seconds into the piece where some kind of phasing effect makes the violine sound a bit off. I haven´t worked on it but it can probably be postprocessed out as well.

Good luck

Gunnar.

I actually like this level of scratchiness, just like the breath of a singer. One thing I hate is when the scratchiness and smoother tone separate from each other, and you end up with an incoherent mess at the top -it can also happen quite easily with flute where you can hear a very unnatural fafafafafa on vibrato. The other extreme would probably be the 'stream-lined strings' that enabled Herbert von Karajan to turn the Beethoven symphonies into lift music (or maybe I should say elevator music :wink: )

I like the balance here.

John

John is right on the money. It is a question of taste very much.

Just for the fun of it I will stick my neck out and make a guess on what mics and placement has been used. You can all laugh at me afterwards when the truth is revealed.

My guess is: pair of cardoids in ORTF or similar, perhaps a pair of Studio Projects C4. Placement about 1 meter above the hardwood floor. (If this is correct, an change to a higher stand would change the sound for the better). Violine player in front, piano farther away, and we are seeing the back of the piano player from where the mics are.

My clues: not much energy in bottom octave, say below 50 hertz points to cardoids. The stereo image is a bit diffuse (ORTF generally is a bit more "sharp" there), but could very well be cardoids. The piano lacks a bit of the high frequencys, so the mics are not quite in the "sweep" from the reflections of the lid.

Now, go ahead and tell me the thruth. I actually enjoy beeing wrong in these things. It is part of the learning experience.

Gunnar.

Sounds good. Isn't that a viola, not a violin?

sounds like a viola to me

Yeah, I would say Viola. Needs darker, smoother tone.
I played the f minor for my Carnegie debut in 2000. It was recorded by the hall engineer.

I really like the sound of the hall, David. Sounds like you're going to have a lot of fun working in there, if this is going to be a regular thing. (It looks a little bit like the Perelman Theater here in Philadelphia, in the Kimmel Center for the Performing Arts. The side balconies look similar, too.)

My guess is you were limited by where you could put the mics, etc. (And I suspect it was from a lower vantage point as others have mentioned....?)

At first glance from the picture, I'd attempt to fly a pair of omni's with the intention of getting the best blend of the pair, and then spot-mic as needed. You could also go with stand mic'ing a pair on the piano, a spot mic (preferably overhead) on the violin, and then an overhead omni pair a bit out in front of the front line of the stage, MAYBE even 1/3 of the way back for hall ambience, but watch out for time delays and smear.... That's a bit of overkill, but if you're making a multitrack live recording and want the best of both worlds, you'll get detail on the performers, some natural house ambience/reverb, and good applause level (which can get lost if you're too close to the performers anyway...)

I think you've got a great space to work in, regardless, and it's lovely for a quick 2mic recording!

Aaah. Viola. There you see how much my guesses and advice is worth.

Gunnar
only excuse might be that I play trombone, whatever that is worth.

Thanks for the input guys. I agree that a slightly darker tone would have probably been better. Gunnar, I admire your bravery in guessing! I'll tell it all after I hear from Ben and Cucco.

ghellquist wrote: only excuse might be that I play trombone, whatever that is worth.

The definition of a gentleman is someone who owns a trombone but chooses not to play it.

Rich (a recovering bass trombonist)

Sonarerec wrote: [quote=ghellquist]only excuse might be that I play trombone, whatever that is worth.

The definition of a gentleman is someone who owns a trombone but chooses not to play it.

Rich (a recovering bass trombonist)

I always thought it was the sax...

David -

In all, I think the recording is good, especially considering the fact that it's your first venture into classical. Let me tackle a few things here, but I'll preface it all with the fact that I only got the opportunity to listen through cans, not my Dynaudios, so I'll say I can give you an 80% answer.

1st - yeah the stereo was shifted a bit - not much though. I don't see this as being something that would drive me nuts. In other words - don't worry too much. If it were a larger orchestral work, I would worry. An interesting note - you mention that you saw more amplitude on one side of the meters... The interesting thing about recording classical is that you really can't rely that much on the eveness of the meters. Often, the left will appear far stronger than the right b/c the violins are on the left - their sound is more directional and aimed at the mics. The basses are more omnidirectional and get picked up quite well by both mics. So, detented pots are super when recording classical - that way you always know your levels are matched. In the absence of detents, you can always use a good uncorrelated noise source as a level baseline. (AC hum should be equal through each pair of mics.)

Okay, so the bowing was rather pronounced - often due to too close of proximity or a directional mic aimed directly at the bridge. This is my first clue that directional mics were used. My second clue is the bass on the piano - not quite as present or full as an omni would present.

The balance between the instruments was fine on the recording, but I agree that it sounds as though the piano were in another room. Often, this is caused by poor spacing between the soloist and the piano or worse - the soloist is afraid they'll be covered up by the piano, so they go short stick. I'm guessing this was the problem. The HF is lost giving the impression of further distance.

Again, I think this is an excellent recording, you should feel quite happy.

My guess is definitely ORTF placed between 6 and 8 feet high (above the stage floor) aimed between 15 and 25 degrees down towards the stage and back from the soloist approximately 12 feet.

Of course, I'm probably WAY off, so don't laugh at me too much. I might re-assess once I hear this through my monitors.

J.

Yup, it was half stick alright. I had no control over their setup or placement. It was a concert, not a recording session.

Thanks for the input J.

David French wrote: I had no control over their setup or placement.

Oh, we never do. :cry:

where should the mics be angled for strings?

Dying to hear about the mic placement... I was "taught", as a starting point, to position the directional mics a meter away and pointing directly at the bridge. I fear that this is why those recordings have bow noise. Of course I like to experiment, and have found ways to smooth things out (to the diss-approval of my instructor at the recording class).

It is interesting to note that a famous violinist, let's say Mr. P.Z. prefers a Coles ribbon "about a bows length off the bridge".

I think that you are doing some fine things with this recording. I would recommend listening and analyzing recordings of the great artists from each particular instrument(whether it's Violin, Viola, kazoo, etc...) to see what great violists sound like on record. Examples such as Kim Kashkashian, Nobuko Imai, Yuri Bashmet. All amazing recordings and the benchmark for classical violists. Some of these Cd's even come with recording notes such as the gear, etc... Try an check them out with a variety of monitors.

Re: where should the mics be angled for strings?

violaman wrote: It is interesting to note that a famous violinist, let's say Mr. P.Z. prefers a Coles ribbon "about a bows length off the bridge".

That will a very different sound than a non-ribbon at that distance. The Zuckerman/Barenboim live CD is a very nice sound from both vln and pno

Rich

Re: where should the mics be angled for strings?

Sonarerec wrote:
That will a very different sound than a non-ribbon at that distance. The Zuckerman/Barenboim live CD is a very nice sound from both vln and pno

Rich

SSSSSOOOOOO True! I'm usually not a big fan of ribbons, but if you gotta use one, this is a good time and place. (Almost as good as shoving one in the bell of a tenor or alto sax).

My personal favorite for recording violin or viola is the Schoeps Colettes with MK2 or MK21s. With these mics, you can get surprisingly close to the instrument and still have fantastic sounds. For a more directional sound but slightly more distance, the AT 4040 is quickly gaining favor in my book for bowed or plucked instruments.

For cello, my favorite is quickly becoming the Gefell M296 - oh such a sweet cello sound.

I've rarely gotten the pleasure to use the DPA 4061, but I understand they are phenomenal for violin/viola/cello too.

J.

Thanks for the tips everybody. I will spill it once I hear from Ben.

Somehow I get the feeling that my scratchy, sibilant, off-centred recordings wouldn't be too popular 'round these parts :cry:

Note to self: U87 two inches from bridge is probably not a good idea unless client likes sandpapering eardrums.

John Stafford wrote: Somehow I get the feeling that my scratchy, sibilant, off-centred recordings wouldn't be too popular 'round these parts :cry:

John,
from me, quite the contrary. I hope that I am learning from every source and every recording I stumble on. If we discuss it here, even I, beeing an old reactionary grunt, can learn to understand and appreciate things I did not even knew existed.

And I hope it comes through that I really appreciate your recording David.

Gunnar

Hi Gunnar
I agree that it's important to keep an open mind, as there is so much to learn from every recording, and from everyone's individual approach and especially their priorities and compromises.

I wasn't being entirely serious in my previous post, but I'm sure most of us have heard a little bit of magic in test recordings when setting up equipment, but then mics have had to be moved because the balance was wrong, or there were phase issues. I really hate when that happens :evil: I must admit that some of my favourite recordings of my own have been the nice bits of the those that I've had to change.

I'll shut up now as this thread is supposed to be about David's very enjoyable recording.

John

Well, I guess Ben isn't coming around, so I'll spill it now.

Two DPA 4006
8" apart
4'6" high (the higher I went, the harsher the viola got)
5' from viola (a few inches back and it was washed in verb)
violist stood at front right corner of piano
piano was centered behind violist

Hopefully you can constuct from this description that I was aiming at them diagonally from the left side. This is the only way I could see to get them both in the center.

Anyone care to postulate on how I couuld have solved some of the problems of this recording?

Thanks a bunch guys, this is great education.

Well, see I told you I would be off...

I am surprised at the lack of presence on the low end of the piano given the configuration. This is likely due totally to two things -

1st of course would be the short stick.
2nd would be the placemement of the piano on the stage. Perhaps they were positioned in such a spot as to creat a significant problem for low frequencies.

Of course, neither of these issues were within your realm of control.

I want to stress again that this is a perfectly acceptable if not downright good live recording, so any "fixes" mentioned here by me or any other posters are simply minor tweaks that are dwelling in the past.

I would think that the situation of moving further away and getting harsher would reach a point of diminishing returns - meaning, past a certain point, you would see a dramatic change for the better.

I completely believe you that, past a few feet, you got lost in the verb. Some halls require only a few feet's distance, others it's been necessary for me to give over 20 feet of distance.

Moral of the story I guess is - be happy. You have a good recording and you obviously have good gear to back it up. Of course, I've seen your posts for a few years now and you obviously have some experience to your credit. These are all the ingredients necessary for a good classical recordist.

Go forth and record... 8)

J.

Well I think it sucks! :lol:

Seriously, I know some other guy could have done much, much better with the same gear and circumstances, and I want to be that guy.

What i'm really wondering is how I could have made up for the shortcomings of this recording. What could I have done to get a better viola tone? More low foundation on the piano? Different mics? Different placement? More mics? These are the type of questions i'm trying to answer. I'm sure I will see this situation again and next time, I want to be ready.

Ahhh, well when you put it that way... I get it.

Okay, so I got the chance to listen to it just a moment ago through my reference system including the Dyn's.

Yes, the viola is even more brittle than I thought. Having just now listened to it again, I don't feel as though this is excessive bow noise - rather something in the recording process which either only picked up a large portion of the higher overtones or brought them out significantly or simply bad viola tone on the part of the player. Thanks to orchestras like the Chicago Symphony and the New York Phil who are constantly striving towards making everything so friggin loud and bright that audiences want to be deaf during their concerts, many musicians are beginning to adopt this slightly worse than painful tone and it might very well be attributed to that.

However, let's make the assumption that it wasn't her tone and we'll move onto the recording.

First, your equipment seems to be fine. I will state that, in general, there are a handful of mics that I prefer over DPAs simply b/c I find the sound that DPA's possess are less than sweet and lively. They, to me at least, are overly clinical and favor the high end of the spectrum. Of course, IMHO...

If you are limited to two tracks, you might want to live with a little extra reverb and get those mics further out. If not, here's what I would suggest (and would likely have done given the scenario that you presented.)

Stereo mic the piano. Short stick doesn't make this easy AT ALL. For a recital such as this and a piano with short stick, I would go as far as to mount two omnis inside the piano. Just take care that you don't get a wash of mid-range muddiness. Some mid-range build up is fine - this is Brahms - he likes mid-range.

Then, I would have chosen a slightly more directional microphone and placed it over the violist. Something along the lines of a Schoeps CMC 6 MK 4 or MK21 or possibly even an Audix SCX25 (They're small LDCs that are quite sensitive and forgiving of excess harshness.)

Then, just for giggles, I would have mounted a pair of spaced omnis in the hall.

I'm assuming the violist was standing? (This is another trend that's starting to piss me off - soloists sitting down. That's just downright rude and disrespectful. As a horn player, I'm constantly standing for solo performances yet I see clarinet and flute players seated when performing now. ARRRRGGGGGHHHHHH.) But again, we'll work off of assumption for now that she was standing.

In that case, the omni pair would have started out for me somewhere around 8 to 10 feet above stage and likely 10 to 12 feet out with a spacing of nearly 3 feet or so, but of course, there are performance considerations here. For example, if the musicians were 15 feet into the stage, it gets a little tricky to put a stand only 10 feet out as they tend to not like a mic stand with a 4 foot leg spread upstaging them and I can't say that I blame them.

Now, here's the beauty part. Use the overhead omnis as your main pair. Bring all other levels down to 0. Now, bring up the piano mics until you get the tone you like as it blends with the main pair. Once you have that settled, bring up the viola mic in the same manner. Of course, be mindful of panning.

You mentioned that you were bringing the mics in from the side of the performance - was this so you wouldn't block the performers?

If so, boy, they just need to learn to get over it. But if they won't a photo backdrop stand will allow you to place tripods on either side of the action on stage with a nice long pole in between it with which you can support your mics. This way, no one on stage gets upstaged by a microphone. You'll find great deals on these stands at http://www.bhphotovideo.com or http://www.backdropoutlet.com and many other photo retailers.

As for adjustments in post production - the only change I would make would be to put the appropriate delay on the close mics and maybe add a hint of reverb to them to allow them to blend better with the distant mics.

So, is this enough info?

BTW, I wouldn't say that it sucks - I recently busted out some of my early recordings (back from when BBE boxes freshly hit the market...) and boy do they suck! I'm thinking of capitalizing on this and issuing "remastered" versions of some of my early stuff. Hell, George Lucas does it, so can I!

J.

David French wrote: What i'm really wondering is how I could have made up for the shortcomings of this recording. What could I have done to get a better viola tone?

My first thought to your question is to get a better violist! But seriously, folks, did you confirm with your ears that the violist in question was actually producing the rich tone you are striving for? After hearing the consistent pitch problems I am skeptical that even a ribbon would be the fix.

Did you try going a bit higher (7ft?) and pointing the 4006 more towards the ceiling? I would have tried that, plus coming in about a foot.

Sometimes performance tradition seems to be totally at odds with what we "want", such as the seating of a piano trio. With those I do not think I could get a good recording (proper balance and pleasing presence) without piano touchups. My favorite mics for that job are TLM193 on an Altas bar pointed forward-- that's right, ZERO degrees incidence. It gives just enough width without touching the pan, which is hard L/R.

To sum up, I think that this is NOT a bad recording-- the piano sound proves that, and the room sounds lovely.

BTW what micpres? Any EQ?

Rich

Well, it's comforting to see Jeremy (Cucco) tell you almost verbatim what I would have suggested as well. (We'd only differ in the mic choices, I'll bet. :twisted:

I recently did a longggg recital (essentially violin & piano) with equal parts traditional classical and a lot of "new" material (composed by the violinist and others). The recital included everything from Bartok & Hungarian folk tunes to Bach to George Crumb & more....

After working all through the dry-run dress rehearsal, we finally worked out the mics to be: Stereo mic pair (AT 4050) on/inside the piano at full stick (the Crumb piece was prepared piano, and had to be amplified as well), a KM-84 directly overhead of the violin (on a big boom coming in from behind/to the side of the violinist), and finally a pair of DPA 4006's on VERY tall boom stands as out-riggers infront of and to either side of the stage. (Very wide spacing, but gorgeous stereo image, esp for the small recital hall that it was.)

We also did 2-camera video, as well as 4 channel surround audio playback for some of her more adventurous pieces, (sampled sounds and electric violin, too) Remarkably, it all came off without a hitch. When it's finished, I'll send you some clips of the traditional piano/violin recital stuff. It really worked out well.

IMHO, with a good accompanist, there's no need to close the piano lid; someone who knows how to accompany will surely play accordingly, and the sound is much much better that way. The sound goes "OUT" instead of rumbling around the stage, behind the soloist.

By the way, Jeremy I LOVE my KMi-84's, and wouldn't part with them for love or money. :lol: I'm not sure of their age/vintage, (pre-1982, at the newest) and I suspect they were modified, but they usually beat just about anything else I put them up against.

The newer KM-84's don't seem to have anywhere near the smooth detail, so I guess I can understand why some don't like these mics, but they sure do it for me. (Used one today on Leila Josefowicz in concert, flew it directly overhead....awesome player, awesome sound.)

Wow. Thanks so much for the great info everybody!

Yes, her tone was not the best.

Cucco, I’m amazed at the prospect of putting omnis inside the piano! I can’t imagine how you would get a good classical sound out of this setup, but I trust that you can, so I’d love to hear more about this. Where inside the piano? What kind of panning? How much of this do you use in the final blend? Do you have any samples of projects you have recorded like this? What technique would you use as a second option?

A directional mic over the violist, eh? Wouldn’t that make for a harsher sound? That’s what I’ve found so far with violins and violas. How much of this do you find yourself using in the final blend? Joe, please let me hear what you have to say about this as well.

Don’t you get the dreaded ping pong effect when using omnis spaced that far apart yet that close to a moving instrument?

Can you talk a bit about delays with this type of setup? Do you measure distances and add delays based on speed of sound calcs or do you use a ‘clap’ technique? Do you find that 10’ or so is enough distance so that the sound is decorrelated enough not to comb filter?

Also, I didn’t choose to mic from the side because of visual asthetic but rather out of a desire to have them both centered. With just the pair, I couldn’t think of any other way to do it.

Rich ,

I picked that particular spot in the recording because it had the fewest pitch problems! I did try going higher, but it got harsher. There is no EQ and the pres are from the Yamaha DM2000.

See, there's definitely a trick to it -

With the piano at short or no stick, none or very little of the HF content leaves the instrument. Instead, it bounces around quite a bit and then gets lost. By placing one omni over the high strings about halfway down the instrument and one more omni over the low strings a little further down still, you lose a lot of the attack which is uncharacteristic for classical. You then get a pretty good sense of a full piano tone with not too much percussives.

As for the panning and the blend - I pan lows left and highs right (pianist's perspective) and I do it until it sounds natural, as though I were playing it. Then I only bring it up enough in the mix that I have a good balance of direct and ambient piano sound. In almost all cases, the main mics are the higher in level and the inside mics are far quieter, but it varies from performance to performance.

I did a recent recording of Beethoven's Emperor Cto with a local college orchestra in which the positioning of the piano, orchestra and audience required that I mic inside the piano. If I have a chance, I'll post a very short demo of it.

J.

In general, an important ingredient in my setups is another pair out in the hall. I usually time-align the room mics with the stage mics. The room mics pick up additional depth and fill out the sound nicely. I just did a solo violin recital. This was a freebee recording so I did some experimenting. I used an MS pair of AKG Blueline mics about 4' from the violin - pretty much pointing straight at (perpendicular to) the top of the instrument. I had an MS pair of Studio Projects C3 mics in the center of the small hall - the mid mic on the room mics was also set to Figure-8.

Sounds nice in my ears. But could need a bit more room. i hear Classic but i get the ROCK feeling. only a two-track you say? :( Need some omni room mics to.

Hey Folks...

Sorry I haven't been around much... Things have just been so darned busy lately. I just haven't had enough time to spend on any of the forums. I'll try to give a listen here soon, but my studio is in a state of rather significant dismantling right now...

A couple thoughts from this thread- omnis can be great in the right circumstances.

When spaced, they can't be too far because then the image can wander. When spaced closer, you then have issues with there not being enough of a timing difference between the channels at [especially] higher frequencies. With the balls on dpa's you can get this, but they are some of the most "omni" mics out there. This is part of the reason why the jeklin disc can work well in the right situation.

When used closely, you need to watch reflections. I use them on classical guitar, but you need to watch floor reflections (I'll usually place a floor mat or something to absorb them). On a piano, you can only get away with them as spots when sufficiently away from the lid- having the lid off is even better (as Jeremy mentioned). I sometimes use them as orchestral spots when I want the bleed created by them to help the ensemble sound.

--Ben

Good to hear from you Ben and I'm looking forward to hearing what you have to say.

Hrrm. My guess was totally off. I have to compose myself a bit before adding anything to this forum. (Sort of occupied the next few days as well with other things. Daytime job).

Gunnar.

ghellquist wrote: Hrrm. My guess was totally off. I have to compose myself a bit before adding anything to this forum. (Sort of occupied the next few days as well with other things. Daytime job).

Gunnar.

Wow Gunnar - it sounds like you're being a touch hard on yourself. Don't you know that's not allowed around here - if you make any major mistakes, David or I will jump all over you for it. :lol: