dwoz wrote: [quote=Cucco]Hmmm...

I can't believe anyone would suggest that Zilla isn't "worth his salt" as it was stated. Check his credentials dude - more commercially released/credited records than most any of us here.

What he's suggesting is perfectly fine assuming 2 things:

J.

...and those two things are: a) you've got days and days of budget to screw around in the studio. Kind of makes the question of "if I only have two pres" MOOT. If you can afford to be in the studio for days to single-drum overdub the kit, then you can CERTAINLY afford to rent in a couple more pres for a day.

b) you are incapable of getting a good kit sound. Maybe its YOU...maybe its the kit...maybe its the drummer...maybe its the room... I would posit that whatever problem is preventing you from getting good tone in the first place, will STILL be a problem with Zilla's technique.

So, With all due deference to Zilla's discography, which is probably great, I must question his guidance in this thread. Maybe he's used to working with umpteen-close-mic-every-drum-damn-the-torpedoes-and-phase-nightmares producers...

dwoz

How the HELL do you purpose that laying over tracks will take DAYS AND DAYS of studio time?

AND FURTHERMORE, WHO THE HELL DO YOU THINK YOU ARE TO THROW AROUND STATEMENTS LIKE...

b) you are incapable of getting a good kit sound. Maybe its YOU...maybe its the kit...maybe its the drummer...maybe its the room... I would posit that whatever problem is preventing you from getting good tone in the first place, will STILL be a problem with Zilla's technique.

You're obviously VERY full of yourself and feel that your technique is the only one viable (as is evident by your arrogant and myopic statement...

Amazingly enough, ONLY Davedog and remyRad have REALLY answered correctly.

)

The last time I checked, there is no ONE single way of recording anything. You really are quite full of yourself, aren't you?

Snide comments and arrogance are not welcome in this forum.

J.

I second that, J.

While I definitely do not claim to have all of the answers, I believe my suggestion was just as viable as anyone else's...

...

...not to mention that until someone proves otherwise, everyone has a valid voice on this forum with which to express relevant opinions.

The answer to "what were the years of the Second World War?" is very simple: "1939-1945".

As for the "limited mic pres" question, things get a bit more complicated. There are many legitimate answers. Otherwise there would be *lot* less to do and say in forums such as this one.

If you were expecting only one kind of answer in the first place, dwoz, why bother asking the question? Go read Tape Op. It's a great magazine, it has great suggestions, and you'll only get the answers you're looking for instead of pesky post-ers with their boring firsthand experience and creativity and helpfullness.

Try to remember what is said about opinions: they're like assholes. Get it?

Cucco wrote:

How the HELL do you purpose that laying over tracks will take DAYS AND DAYS of studio time?

well...let's pretend, hypothetically speaking, that we're dealing with your average Dave weckl, or a Van Halen brother, or any guy with a double bass setup. You spend a while figuring out that you're getting bad sound, and decide to do takes anyway. You have to get a good run-through from the drummer...for the "feel". then you've got to re-mic the drums for each pass to replace them, and also get a good take from the drummer. You might be lucky enough to only spend two days on a task like this, for a 5 song EP (them's 12 hour days methinks)

AND FURTHERMORE, WHO THE HELL DO YOU THINK YOU ARE TO THROW AROUND STATEMENTS LIKE...

b) you are incapable of getting a good kit sound. Maybe its YOU...maybe its the kit...maybe its the drummer...maybe its the room... I would posit that whatever problem is preventing you from getting good tone in the first place, will STILL be a problem with Zilla's technique.

I'm just a cave-man AE, who wonders what one of those factors would be changed if you did "old-skool drum sound replacement"?

Every time I've ever dropped a meatball off my pasta plate, it ALWAYS hits the floor. Not once has one surprised me and hit the ceiling. I can't help thinking that with every passing day, statistics are more and more on my side and I'm getting CLOSER to the meatball that will go splat on the ceiling.

You're obviously VERY full of yourself and feel that your technique is the only one viable (as is evident by your arrogant and myopic statement...

Amazingly enough, ONLY Davedog and remyRad have REALLY answered correctly.

)

The last time I checked, there is no ONE single way of recording anything. You really are quite full of yourself, aren't you?

Now, I was getting all geared up to be Mr. Sweetness and Cuddles, but you come along and hurt my widdle feewings. true enough there is no one way, but there are most DEFINITELY "mainstream" ways, and "esoteric" ways. Zilla is quite happily skipping along the exotic brick road in this thread, and god love him for it.

And if you check the frick'in CONTEXT of that thread you quote, You'd understand that I was addressing the notion of PROBLEM SOLVING, not the notion of recording. If anything, my answer in that post described the MOST EXPANSIVE way of recording, in direct opposition to many who declared VERY NARROW parameters for recording.

Snide comments and arrogance are not welcome in this forum.

J.

I must imagine that a tremendous burst of feedback blasted through your brain as you wrote that.

love you too, sweet-cheeks!

dwoz

THIS could become 'controversial' simply via tone and happenstance....' It shouldnt....

Chill and listen fer a minute...

J. go visit dwoz in his digs @ prosoundweb The Marsh, and you will see just how benevolent he is being and correct me if I'm wrong...in deference to our feelings here about high levels of crap-i-ola.....He is playing along..

Also....it seems that we are all saying the same thing....ANY method will work considering the situation.

As an AE/Producer, these are the things I look at when dealing with a client. It helps to get a feel for how they like to work as opposed to their image of what they are going to sound like. There are definately those who would never benefit from a prolonged session involving mic changes on a per-song basis, as there are those who's experimental side looks for and expects these kinda things tied to their creation of their stuff.

Which is right?

Neither ......unless I deem it so!

If you've hired Dave W. or Ginger frickn Baker, then you've somehow managed to piece together some sort of recording package that has high-end pres at all the IMPORTANT spots in the mic'd-for-better-or-worse sound pallette.

So dwoz.........right or wrong, the question still remains (in the eyes of this poster) in a session not-quite-up-to that level, where should the only high-end mic pres go????

It's still dependant on the musical stylings and the playing capabilities of the DruMMerDuDe.........

Put em On the Goshdarned kickdrum and snare LIKE I TOLL YA AlreAdY!.... (actual quote from 1970's era AE)

Davedog wrote: THIS could become 'controversial' simply via tone and happenstance....' It shouldnt....

Chill and listen fer a minute...

J. go visit dwoz in his digs @ prosoundweb The Marsh, and you will see just how benevolent he is being and correct me if I'm wrong...in deference to our feelings here about high levels of crap-i-ola.....He is playing along..

Darn right I'm taking tone Da' Dog! I'm familiar with Dwoz over on the PSW and I know he's lurked around here for some time. (As I'm also a perpetual lurker over at PSW.)

My point is simple - people come here for helpful advice. Dogmatism and cynicism aren't the order of the day here. They work fine in the Marsh, but this ain't the marsh. That's why many of the folks come here.

Also....it seems that we are all saying the same thing....ANY method will work considering the situation.

But that is NOT in fact what Dwoz is spewing. Instead, he's attacking the credentials of one of our finest engineers on this board (Zilla - and he's more than capable of standing up for himself, I've just seen that in most cases, he simply won't reply when someone becomes a dick - smart) and suggesting that others' ideas won't work.

Well, Dwoz, I'm not sure how your studio works, but overlaying drum tracks is not difficult at all! Lay a kick and a snare pattern down. It's not hard to get a good sound from these instruments using 2 good mics and 2 good pres.

Then, lay your overheads down. It's really simple and it doesn't take 2 12 hour days!

Am I being an ass in this case? HELL YES. I know I am. However, I really get sick and tired of dogmatism and elitism on these boards. IMO, the Marsh is rampant with these problems. That's why I choose to post and mod here. I think THAT fact alone (the lack of ego and dogma) is why many folks are here and not in the MARSH.

Sorry Dog - I know I'm being a dick in your house (2 posts in 1 day nonetheless!) I just get REALLY frustrated. And I don't care how a person behaves in another forum. If they'd like to behave that way, they can do it in their forum. Here, kindness, assistance and the lack of ego (or at least a gently compressed ego) are how it works.

To put a finer point on it - statements like this

dwoz wrote:
Anyone who said that it HAS to be on the OH's, is a lying sack of dung at least some of the time, and might accidentally be correct some of the time.

Anyone who said use them on your best mics doesn't process beyond the "ohh, look at the shiny pretty thing" level. Now, don't get me wrong...I have found myself looking around the CR in the dark, marvelling at all the pretty lighted meters and leds and stuff...no denying its a fun part of the gig!

are inflamatory, arrogant and uncalled for. Referring to anyone as a "lying sack of dung" has always been considered an insult where I'm from.

J.

Cucco wrote:

But that is NOT in fact what Dwoz is spewing. Instead, he's attacking the credentials of one of our finest engineers on this board (Zilla - and he's more than capable of standing up for himself, I've just seen that in most cases, he simply won't reply when someone becomes a dick - smart) and suggesting that others' ideas won't work.

I did nothing of the sort! I merely disagreed with something he said. I've personally found that musicians as a species, are recalcitrant when it comes to breaking the ensemble down to smaller units than the ensemble level (tracking/overdubbing). I can just imagine their reaction when I tell them that they have to break it down yet further. What Zilla has proposed...and I can certainly see where such a technique would give a producer *ultimate* control of the drum sound...is something that your typical recording musician will push back on. "You want to record single drums a take at a time exactly WHY?"

To a musician, it is almost like asking a guitarist to play his solo one string at a time. He's going to push back on you and question your credentials.

To put a finer point on it - statements like this

dwoz wrote:
Anyone who said that it HAS to be on the OH's, is a lying sack of dung at least some of the time, and might accidentally be correct some of the time.

Anyone who said use them on your best mics doesn't process beyond the "ohh, look at the shiny pretty thing" level. Now, don't get me wrong...I have found myself looking around the CR in the dark, marvelling at all the pretty lighted meters and leds and stuff...no denying its a fun part of the gig!

are inflamatory, arrogant and uncalled for. Referring to anyone as a "lying sack of dung" has always been considered an insult where I'm from.

J.

Little too much "character" and "color" for ya, spanky? As some here would know, my online take of things is not to just be a human wiki. I like to wrap generally real information in a package that makes it more interesting to read. Of course, I'm a complete amateur compared to some of my buddies...luminaries and visionaries like Slipperman and Aardvark, who have IMPECCABLE knowledge of things audio, and run circles around me.

But, if a little less curry and a little more ketchup is what's needed, then I can probably accommodate. After all, here at home, I have learned to lay off the habanero when cooking mac and cheese for the kids.

someone pm me and let me know which way to go?

dwoz

I really dont have any problem at all with the occasional 'rolling eye' focused on someones postings....as long as it doesnt become myopic in the process.

I dont really see the 'attack' on Zilla's credentials, but simply an argument against that particular method based on a real-life scenario peopled with (ack!) 'musicians'....

Which I endorse. Both sides of...Since I've operated in both ways on numerous occasions.

Zilla and Cucco both have vaild points of fact here....I say it is entirely dependant on the situation and the abilities of the 'Artists' to deal with that situation.

dwoz has the same credibility with his statement AND he is probably dead-on in his assessment about how yer 'nermal-gitar-wankin-lets-get-this-show-goin dinks are going to react to the time spent on such a move.

See, ya cant do this little trick with just anybody. Its a SLOW process compared to set-em-up and push the red button. It takes someone whos knowledgeable enough to buy into this methodology and wants to PAY for it. I'm not on here to argue the time equation...I've been-there-done-it so I'm more than aware of the ease which recording things one string at a time can have. Its tedius at best and when you have folks in who have a different idea of work flow and results, you would have conflict.....as dwoz was suggesting.

My point is to not get our backs up in a roar simply because someone dissagrees and uses colorful language to describe their point. We do have a bit more of a 'code' so-to-speak here at R.O. In comparison to the bit livelier escapades over in the Marsh. I personally enjoy both. As long as theres a content based on fact and relevent information and not personal attacks.

This Is NOT your K Foster kinda place any longer.

This IS the Dogg House.

So J. Chill ..You still da man.

Dwoz....I like you. You bring information to the table thats pertinent. Realize we like a bit more conservative personalizations here. But you're still welcome.

Lets all have fun though... I'm not a fan of it getting too dry and droll. We're all soldiers in this audio army. Its best not to take things too seriously.

Davedog wrote:

So J. Chill ...

Absolutely Sir. In this house - you da boss!

:D

J.

Hadn't visited this thread for a while and it looks like things have gotten a bit :-?

Are either of you trying to give up smoking or something???

In the years i've been involved in all this malarchy, i've realised one thing above all else.

Everyone has an opinion.

Whether you agree with that opinion is another thing. It does not categorically mean they are incorrect (in most cases :wink: ) .

I stated earlier in this thread my preference to use the better stuff up top - but if it didn't give me the sound I wanted it would only take my 5 mins to swap them around. That's just my opinion.

C'mon guys - lets not forget that a good proportion of this is about creativity and experimentation. Without this, music would not evolve, but be a sterile vacuous entity.

o2x wrote: Hadn't visited this thread for a while and it looks like things have gotten a bit :-?

Are either of you trying to give up smoking or something???

In the years i've been involved in all this malarchy, i've realised one thing above all else.

Everyone has an opinion.

Whether you agree with that opinion is another thing. It does not categorically mean they are incorrect (in most cases :wink: ) .

I stated earlier in this thread my preference to use the better stuff up top - but if it didn't give me the sound I wanted it would only take my 5 mins to swap them around. That's just my opinion.

C'mon guys - lets not forget that a good proportion of this is about creativity and experimentation. Without this, music would not evolve, but be a sterile vacuous entity.

Yeah o2x - I did get a bit cranky. My apologies if I went too far.

Dwoz - I do respect your opinion. My only issue arises when it looks like ego more than info appears. If your intent was to help and not bitch-slap, then I apologize for becoming an ass.

J.

Cucco...you've got to understand something. I'm without peer, the most self-important bastard on the entire planet.

sosume *(anyone here know the story behind this?)

However, you'll come to notice, if you read me for awhile, that anytime I'm calling *idiot* on something, I'm typically including myself inside that.

I've got no delusions about how much I know...in fact, I knew a HELL of a lot more about EVERYTHING when I was 20, than I do now.

However, I'm a BIG PROPONENT of looking beyond "procedure" and examining "process". Explanations that look like recipes or lists of steps, tend to ring my bells, and I want to go into "what makes you think you have to do a,b,c,d...what are you REALLY doing there."

There's often collateral damage.

dwoz

O2x! I hadda laugh....Really loud!

Reason: When was the last time you turned on a radio and DIDNT hear sterile vacuous entities called songs? :lol:

I'm not laughing at you....its just a funny thought and really a quite appropo deliniation of our current state of unachievers in the music business....

But thats another thread entirely.

You are right about experimentation though. Anyone sets foot into my personal lab had better come prepared to brew something different.

dwoz wrote: Cucco...you've got to understand something. I'm without peer, the most self-important bastard on the entire planet.

sosume *(anyone here know the story behind this?)

However, you'll come to notice, if you read me for awhile, that anytime I'm calling *idiot* on something, I'm typically including myself inside that.

I've got no delusions about how much I know...in fact, I knew a HELL of a lot more about EVERYTHING when I was 20, than I do now.

However, I'm a BIG PROPONENT of looking beyond "procedure" and examining "process". Explanations that look like recipes or lists of steps, tend to ring my bells, and I want to go into "what makes you think you have to do a,b,c,d...what are you REALLY doing there."

There's often collateral damage.

dwoz

Yeah Dwoz - you know, I think I did misunderstand you.

I must have been PMSing or something. I re-read your posts both here and on the other topic and you weren't being that inflamatory. What can I say - I sincerely apologize for being a dick to you. I read it with the wrong inflection and obviously had some misplaced anger.

If you read much of my stuff you'll see that I try to be as helpful as possible but get VERY defensive when I think someone is throwing in too much ego. That's what I interpreted and I must say, I read WAY too much into it.

This isn't my first public apology on this board for this very thing and it's likely not to be my last, but I do insist it is sincere.

Now if you'll excuse me, I must go self-flagelate for my penance. (Not self-flatulate. That would be far worse!)

Jeremy

Davedog wrote: When was the last time you turned on a radio and DIDNT hear sterile vacuous entities called songs? :lol:

My point entirely - when people get too bogged down in what pre-amp/mic combination to use here and what signal chain to use there, they concentrate on the how and not the why.

Rules are there to be broken. Where would we be now if Les Paul hadn't decided to chain some tape machines together, or Phil Spector didn't overdub a squillion times, or if Jimi Hendrix woke up one day and said, "you know, maybe i should listen to those guys and not turn my amp up to 10 after all."