Yea, I tend to agree. This seems to happen a lot with the Grams.
I think it's kind a like a payback for some artists who have been around for years, so now they feel that those artists perhaps didn’t get the level recognition that they should have because bla, bla, bla....
Just a theory.... If my theory is correct, it will probably keep happening. Seems like crap to me too.

i dont think that radioheads release is all that, actually kinda dissapointed with it after hearing all the prelisten raves... not as bad as blair witch project in the movie world... but nothing on the album is groundbreaking or that interesting. [alright fire away at me now]

becks album wasnt all that either. both albums were good, but shouldnt an album of the year be outright exceptional? i dont think ANY album came out lastyear was.

now Mutations done by nigel [radiohead] that beck did a few years ago is unfuckinbelievable.

i dont give a rats ass about steely dan. never have... not my cupotea.

Quote:
Posted by Alphajerk
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i dont think that radioheads release is all that, actually kinda dissapointed with it after hearing all the prelisten raves... not as bad as blair witch project in the movie world... but nothing on the album is groundbreaking or that interesting. [alright fire away at me now]
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Radiohead not groundbreaking.....hmmmm, well maybe not in your opinion but for them it is certainly a major departure from their particular norm and as such I would call it groundbreaking. I am not speaking as an avid radiohead fan and I have to confess it took me several listens before I really got into it. I now just really appreciate the talent that has gone into making it and the guts that got them to do it in the first place. I'm not ashamed to say I am a Steely Dan fan, you gotta appreciate the talent here, even if it isn't your cup of tea but it does seem a travesty that with some real cool new talent out there at the moment that the grammys as do the brits ( our own little show) seem to feel the need to honour those that were once great but have done nothing spectacular in years..... Yep a long service award would be a better description.....

Simon :(

I agree, if anything, they should have given SD a lifetime achievement grammy and given the album one to someone else. I love Kid-A, but I only think about 50% of it is grammy worthy.

Dear Fletcher and all,
Call me cynical, but the reason the GrammysTM exist (and the reason the OscarsTM exist etc.) is to sell more product. If you as a consumer haven't experienced the movie/album/TV show being honored, you are more likely to think, "hey, that's supposed to be a really good (whatever)" and be motivated to plunk down money for it.

Merit? eminem? Madonna? Madness.

And would someone please give Macy Gray a cough drop?

Yours,
Dan Popp
Colors Audio
USA

Hello,
Dave Letterman had a good joke the other night, it went something like this....
"Last night Steely Dan won the Grammy for album of the year...and the year was 1976."
hehe.
I thought the Macy Gray album was certainly
exceptional, #1 on my playlist for the year.
Kid A?...AOK I say.
simonsez

dont get me wrong, i think Kid A is better than a lot [most] of whats out there but that album sounds like a million hours of recordings i've done with others just getting together to record [mostly on some (several) types of intoxicants] so its not groundbreaking to my ears. the difference is that was released with their reputation on the line whereas i have no reputation. im glad they had the balls to do it too, i think they are one of the cooler bands out there right now. it reminds me a little of Mercury Rev's 'See You On The Other Side' which IMO musically blows Kid A away, mainly because its their magnum opus album, unfortunately they mixed to 35mm film which i think accounts for a really weird sound on the mix... certainly not anywhere as nice as sounding as Kid A by a long shot.

ive said this somewhere else i think but in general music to me lately seems very uninspired, even from bands that i absolutely love. ween for instance SOUNDED great [white pepper] but the songs werent on par with the past albums... i doesnt suck by any stretch but theres one track on it that i HAVE to skip everytime, im thinking of burning a copy of that cd without the song. but there are some really good ones too.

shit, what do i know?

Well I didn't think "Two Against Nature" was any more or less boring than any other of SD's stuff - which is to say, from where I sit, pretty fucking boring.

But then, I think the Grammys are totally boring as well, and couldn't care less who wins them. Considering some of the decisions NARAS voters make, if something decent happens to win, it's no prize. Who cares whether somebody thinks you're great if they also think Eminem is great? What does that really tell you about how good your work is or isn't? Ya know?

And yes alpha I would have to agree that, in general, music in 2000 sucked ass, and that even a lot of stuff by artists I normally like wasn't all that great. Luckily there are some local bands that have really kept me going, but nobody is about to hand any of them a Grammy and it's probably just as well.

--Lee

i've been almost entirely reliant on local music lately, nobody big ever comes here anyways...

the beck album is very fuckin cool too. i would have picked it over Radioheads submission.

while we are at it, despite all my pleas, my wife got madonnas new album. they got a horrible programmer on that album. i have a rule, if your gonna use a drum machine, dont make it sound like an incompetant drummer. oh well.

The Grammy's, ah, fuck the Grammy's. They suck. Don't get me wrong, I'd accept a Grammy, and would like to win one, but that doesn't mean that I don't recoginze how fucked they are.

What really sucks is the fact that the engineering Grammy is given before the show. The labels will shell out up to $100,000 and a point to mix an album, but the engineer's are kept off the program?

Mixerman

I think '76 was an excellent year for SD, myself. Let's see... I was stoned evvvvery day, doing my best to get laid, painting houses, and loving all of Katy Lied, Royal Scam... Ahhhh yes, it was a good year.

I was BESERK for Steely Dan through Aja and even Gaucho, though by then I was already missing the harder rock solos. It was getting a little too trimmed and buffed, if you ask me. Then I bought Kamakiriad, could barely listen through to it once. If memory serves, the frequencies HURT! Too trim and tight, with semi funky grooves that went on too long... Less and less "blend" and ambience in the mixes- almost like the stuff was all recorded direct. My heroes had gone too Formica clean- and I LIKE that kind of thing!

I guess I miss the sense of looseness, the sense that a solo that would make my jaw drop open was likely on every song, and the poppier, tighter songwriting of those mid-period albums.

I've seen SD on the tube just lately(their Video/ promo/ show thing?), and it sounded a lot like the Kamakiriad stuff taken further into tightassed, funk-like-a-machine music. And when I read that the best drummers in the world couldn't play rythms tight enough for Walter and Donald (and Roger?) and they had to tweeze the drum grooves in PT, I felt that there was no good reason to check into the CD more deeply. So... my opinion counts for shit 'cause....

I HAVEN'T EVEN HEARD IT! Should I bother?

Am I wrong? Tell me if I am!

WOE

Well for me it was a toss up between SD and Beck. I ended up voting for SD, Most of the artist I voted for didn't win. btw, I didn't
watch the show. I don't know why I stay a member of NARAS, It's exspensive, they never offer their members anything, if they do have a seminar anywhere close to you they charge for admission. I suppose I want a voice, in the selections. You know the old saying, If you don't vote don't bitch.

But Earl, we get those wonderful glossy mailings every few days...every one complete with at least one picture of "President and CEO of the Recording Academy, Michael Greene". I know that's why I'm a member.

Ya know, I've never met the man, but still want to backhand that fucking shit eating grin off his face. I don't know why, I'm sure he's a wonderful fella.

As for the awards spectical, it started out with way noble intentions. I'm sure the majority of people that vote place their votes on 3 levels...

1) Their clients, cohorts, co-conspiritors

2) Things they haven't heard but think they should like

3) Things they've heard that they do like.

One of the problems with the proceedure is people voting in areas where they lack expertise. :roll: I voted in the R&B catagory last year, a catagory I had a little less than no business voting in...except a couple of our clients were nominated.

They lump "Remixer of the Year, Non-Classical" (which is a scream in it's own right...I wanna start doing "classical remixes"!!) in with Engineer-Classical and Engineer Non-Classical.

They're all different disciplines. I have no idea what the best engineered 'Classical' recording might be, I voted for a friend who was nominated. I wouldn't know the work of any of those 'remixers' on a dare. I voted in that catagory because I'm qualified to have voted for "Best Engineered Album-Non Classical" and "Best Produced Album-Non Classical" (neither of my picks got the nod, but that's OK...

The only catagory I voted on where my "pick" won was 'Reggae'...the irony there is that "Art & Life" (Beenie Man) wasn't a 'reggae' record...it's "Dance Hall Style", which is closer to 'hip hop' than 'Reggae' (what can I say, I like that shit).

Now that they're a bit older and starting to listen to music, I fill out the ballot with my kids. In a couple of areas, they actually have a way more valid opinion than I. The fact of the matter is that the 'awards ceremony' gives the 'record industry' a nice shot in the arm, and picks up sales for a week or two...generates income for Naras (tm), which keeps them in the black, so they can send me more nicely printed junk mail that is sure to have a picture of "President and CEO of the Recording Academy, Michael Greene"

Originally posted by Mixerman:
The Grammy's, ah, fuck the Grammy's. They suck. Don't get me wrong, I'd accept a Grammy, and would like to win one, but that doesn't mean that I don't recoginze how fucked they are.

OK, this is what I don't get. If they're so fucked, why would you even like to win one? What would it really be saying about your work? Nothing. Let's say you did a really great record and they gave you a Grammy. Seems to me that the Grammy wouldn't lend any more credibility to your work if it was already good anyway - it'd be more like THEY were trying to give the organization some credibility by giving you a Grammy.

The ONLY reason I'd like to win one, is so I could show up in a pair of ripped up jeans and a T shirt (that's the other thing I hate, what the fuck is with the way people dress on that show?) and tell them how fucked they are, and not accept the award. That's the only thing that MIGHT wake them up is to get really embarrassed on national television by someone really in a position to embarrass them. I really wish somebody like Bob Dylan would've done a couple of years ago when he was on the show - that would've been even cooler than the Soy Bomb guy.

--Lee

Hey Fletcher, I did meet Michael Greene President of the recording academy once. I ask him a question, and I'm sure it was important. And he just smiled never said a word. At the same meeting I meet Terry Lickona, producer of Austin city limits, very nice fella. I also meet Ray Benson, from Asleep at the wheel fame, I think he was smoking the same shit that killed River Phoenix. My wife and I do the voting, hell she knows more then I do about most of the artist, I did vote for Steve Earle, he still makes some good music. Well NARAS is offering a discount this year, sign up now and save $35.00. Such a deal.

Originally posted by Lee Flier:
OK, this is what I don't get. If they're so fucked, why would you even like to win one? What would it really be saying about your work? Nothing. Let's say you did a really great record and they gave you a Grammy. Seems to me that the Grammy wouldn't lend any more credibility to your work if it was already good anyway - it'd be more like THEY were trying to give the organization some credibility by giving you a Grammy.

--Lee

I like the concept of the Grammy's. I just don't like what they've become. I don't like the way this business operates either, but I deal with it.

You're right, if I win a Grammy it will have more to do with the fact that the album sold allot of units, and was fairly poular within the music community. Perhaps, if I'm lucky, it would be the best engineered product of the 5 contenders. But that's neither here nor there. It's the highest award you can win in this business.

I wouldn't be heartbroken if I never won one either. I'd rather have a great run with no Grammy, then a shitty run with a Grammy. But that doesn't mean I shouldn't take a Grammy if it's offered, or worse denounce it to the entire world that's oblivious to the polotics involved.

Then my mook grandchild (no he's not even close to being born yet) can sell it to get some cash for whatever. Uy yuy yuy.

Mixerman

Originally posted by Mixerman:
I like the concept of the Grammy's. I just don't like what they've become.

Not to beat a dying horse, but when have they EVER been meaningful? I think I've mentioned before that I first realized that all was not right in the music biz world in 1978, when I was 15 years old and the "Saturday Night Fever" soundtrack beat out the Rolling Stones' "Some Girls" for Album of the Year. Not only that, the Stones had NEVER won a Grammy, and never did until NARAS finally figured out sometime in the late 80's or early 90's that they had seriously screwed up, and gave them a "Lifetime Achievement Award." Come on.

That is only one glaring faux pas out of many, but it happened to be the one that let me personally know that the award was totally meaningless.

I don't like the way this business operates either, but I deal with it.

Hmm.... why not try to change it? If everybody agrees that "the biz" is fucked up, but everybody just deals with it, then how will it ever be any different?

You're right, if I win a Grammy it will have more to do with the fact that the album sold allot of units, and was fairly poular within the music community. Perhaps, if I'm lucky, it would be the best engineered product of the 5 contenders. But that's neither here nor there. It's the highest award you can win in this business.

Well then I guess I'm just not in the award-seeking business. I have a problem with the concept. I guess, to me, the source counts. If Glyn Johns or George Martin or Steve Albini were to tell me I did a great job on an album that I'd engineered or produced, or one of my guitar heroes were to congratulate me on a guitar playing job well done, that would be a lot cooler to me than a Grammy. I don't consider most of the NARAS folks to be qualified to judge my work, even though a small subset of them would be, and other subsets would be qualified to judge someone else's work.

Or to put it another way, I couldn't care less what Dr. Dre thinks about my work 'cause it has absolutely nothing to do with what he does. And I'm sure he could give a damn what I think of Eminem, either. So why should we get to vote on each other's work and have that be considered legitimate?

I wouldn't be heartbroken if I never won one either. I'd rather have a great run with no Grammy, then a shitty run with a Grammy. But that doesn't mean I shouldn't take a Grammy if it's offered, or worse denounce it to the entire world that's oblivious to the polotics involved.

I'd like to think the world isn't that stupid not to realize all is not right in NARAS' world when Christopher Cross wins the top 5 Grammys. But maybe I'm just totally naive. In any case, again, how is anything going to change for the better if no one is willing to say what's wrong? It's really funny too, because I know lots of individual NARAS members whom I respect, all of whom complain that the Grammys are fucked, the business is fucked, etc... well then who exactly is doing all this bogus voting? And why, knowing that the system is bogus and doesn't work, should we care about it? Either it should change, or it should be ignored at the very least, and better yet denounced, by those who know it's not a real representation of anything, until it does change. Accepting the award and, worse yet, coveting it, seems like the best way to ensure that things will continue exactly as they are.

--Lee

Quote:
Posted by Lee Flier
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I'd like to think the world isn't that stupid not to realize all is not right in NARAS' world when Christopher Cross wins the top 5 Grammys.
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Oh Lee
if only this were true, the problem is that the world is stupid!!! We are fed and clothed by the media.... On the whole I personally don't give a fuck who won any award ( unless its me of course ) but if the media says its cool then it must be so ...... Well at least to those amongst us who react to them. The problem is that too many members of this planet are led by them and will follow anything they may care to say!! It is naive to believe that the general public are gonna buy anything that the media aren't gonna tell them to... More's the pity. Until we reach the day that allows free radio play name or not and until the next generaion learns that all that is in print or on the TV is not cool I really don't see that there is likely to be any sanity for those of us who have twigged them do you?
I too find these days that there is far more solace in Local bands... I like to find new talent and develop them and then license them and yes,therefore, it has been a dissapointing year but then hell, if ya really think about it when wasn't it?
Concentrate on what you love and what keeps you sane and fuck the rest of the BS that is our world.

Simon :eek:

Quote:
Posted by Lee Flier
---------------------------------------------------------
I'd like to think the world isn't that stupid not to realize all is not right in NARAS' world when Christopher Cross wins the top 5 Grammys.
--------------------------------------------------------
Oh Lee
if only this were true, the problem is that the world is stupid!!! We are fed and clothed by the media.... On the whole I personally don't give a fuck who won any award ( unless its me of course ) but if the media says its cool then it must be so ...... Well at least to those amongst us who react to them. The problem is that too many members of this planet are led by them and will follow anything they may care to say!! It is naive to believe that the general public are gonna buy anything that the media aren't gonna tell them to... More's the pity. Until we reach the day that allows free radio play name or not and until the next generaion learns that all that is in print or on the TV is not cool I really don't see that there is likely to be any sanity for those of us who have twigged them do you?
I too find these days that there is far more solace in Local bands... I like to find new talent and develop them and then license them and yes,therefore, it has been a dissapointing year but then hell, if ya really think about it when wasn't it?
Concentrate on what you love and what keeps you sane and fuck the rest of the BS that is our world.

Simon :eek:

Originally posted by Lee Flier:

--Lee

There is no changing it. It's human nature. It will change on its own, as demands of consumers change, or not.

These companies are too big for vendors (let's not fool ourselves here, we're vendors) to successfully change.

Mixerman

Originally posted by Fletcher:
So...we haven't touched on this...and perhaps it's more for the 'Bar & Grille', but I don't really care.

What do you think? And why?

I assume you're talking about Steely Dan's best album award? Seems I remember not too many years ago George Jones getting up and playing at the CMA and giving a dig to the members because the "old guys" weren't getting recognized anymore. And I don't remember them getting grammies before during their heyday, although my last two brain cells shrivel with fear when I try to get them to remember those days. Perhaps it's more for the body of work than the specific?

A friend of mine who has nothing to do with music or the business on the morning of the Gramm's told me that Steely Dan would win the best album category because the always give that award to either an exceptional/blowout (read sales)record (which could've been eminem's in other peoples eyes)or to some old guys who deserved one 20 years ago but were ignored 'cause the Gramm's are so out of step.
Beck's Mutations is a great record and so is Radiohead's OK computer but the records they were nominated for this year weren't as great IMO. So in the year 2021 Beck will get best album for his double record "ask my narcissistic assfaced twin" and in 2525 if we're still alive radiohead will win for their record "blurp blop tweazle drop(if Thom had been killed years ago we'd have a compilation out at #1 now)" Bad humor, Bad year for music...

Yep you guys have covered it all about the Grammys. The thing that is so pathetic about it, is the voting members should know better. I'd like to think that more of the members would have better taste than is usually the case. Also I think the new SD record sounds like crap. I used to be a fan, but those last 2 have been way too tweezed, and I never thought I'd hear a recording from them that makes the Nightfly sound WARM and SPACIOUS, lol. A buddy of mine compared the two and it is amazing how shitty the new ones sound compared to even The Nightfly, which I thought for years, was too thin and clean.

The only reason Steely Dans latest album is selling so well is that
50-year-olds don't know how to download it for free.

John, that's plagiarism. Give proper credit.

Ha Ha - yes Angelo you are right - I just loved the line. :) here is the full quote:

Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.

Thank you! :) :) :) :) :)

(Am I the only one that thinks DM is doin a bunch of coke when he gets on these rants? hehe)

DM looks like his head is gonna pop at any moment.

I am a big SD fan. I fact I just recently enjoyed viewing a DVD on the making of AJA which in my opinion one of the greatest albums made both technically and musically. We all have heard the stories of the obsessive amount of attention to detail this team of people invloved in making their records have spent. For the most part I have always admired it. However I am amazed that at the caliber of musicianship and technical ability present that they managed to suck the life out of what could have been a refreshing and inspiring sound again. The mechanical and clinical sound of this record is appauling to me. I have tried to like this record so many times much the way I have tried to like Allanis Morsette's debut album JLP. Great performances but the rcording just interferes with my ability to appreciat it.

>>> However I am amazed that at the caliber of musicianship and technical ability present that they managed to suck the life out of what could have been a refreshing and inspiring sound again. The mechanical and clinical sound of this record is appalling to me.
=============
That is exactly how I feel...

>>>DM looks like his head is gonna pop at any moment.
==============
I don't want to go off on a rant here, but...