I just did it!

It works hotdamn!

I’ve recorded stereo on two tracks using the Stereo RCA from the mixer REC OUT into the SUB INPUT in Tascam and activated channel 7/8 and it recorded on tracks 3 and 4, left and right respectively!

I’m going to try to redo it and take pictures of my settings!

Thank you all who contributed today!

Bless y’all!

Excellent!

Good News

Ok, so here’s what I’ve done.
There is one setback though - the line signal reacts to the mixer master sliders - which I think is weird, since it should be a stand alone line that only delivers the “mix”, not the volume.
But, anyhow...

The mixer handles the PA as usual and my mic’d vocal and mic’d guitar amp run in to the mixer.

I’m driving the PA because I like the “feel” of live recording and hearing the sound from PA while playing - planning on doing this with a full band.

The vocals and guitar are nicely balanced with the mixer and sent to the PA. The two channels I’ve used were both panned to full left and full right.

I then run the “RECORD OUT” RCA line out from the mixer into the Tascam. The buttons underneath this line are not pushed in - that means “AUX MASTERS” = Pre. I thought this would keep the line as stand alone signal, but apparently it’s not working. I think I’ve tried pushing them in too - that would set them to “POST” (meaning master vol sliders have effect).

The “RECORD OUT” goes into the “SUB INPUT” RCA stereo line at the back of the Tascam track recorder. It is the only RCA/stereo line in for this machine.

I’ve “activated” the channel 7/8 by selecting “ASSIGN” = L-R underneath it. Also “line out“ L-R and “effect cue” = 2/cue. The last selector is on “tape cue”. All the levels for this channel are on full including the master fader.

The Tascam manual mentioned that the 7/8 input only records on tracks 3 and 4.
So, I’ve engaged them by selecting “INPUT” = mic/line. I’ve also panned these two channels to full left (3) and full right (4).
The trim and fader level are on full.

I’ve bussed the channels 3 and 4, and in the buss they are automatically going on 3-left and 4-right.

Pressed record and play and started recording.

By doing this I should be able to mic even a whole band, run it into the mixer, find a nice balance and then record that.

The set back I have at the moment is that the stand alone line from mixer to recorder is reacting to the mixer master vol sliders? No idea why this is happening.

I’ve posted some pictures.

Thank you so much for everyone who chipped in today! You really helped me in trying to figure this one out!

All the other channels in the Tascam, I kept off or unassigned.

Yes the Master faders are in the path of the Sub in, you would have to modify the mixer to change that. Glad you figured it out.

Pics of the settings...

Attached files

More pics of the settings.

Attached files

Link555, post: 467920, member: 31690 wrote:
Yes the Master faders are in the path of the Sub in, you would have to modify the mixer to change that. Glad you figured it out.

Hi Link,

Yeah, that’s kinda annoying.. If there is a line out, why would any one hook it up to the master vol? Now I have to crank up the PA to get a decent signal - which is not ideal. That’s not at all how I think a “line out” should work.

And I was hoping the push/pull buttons would somehow disengage the signal from the master vol but no.. Either in or out and it had an effect on the line out. The DM12 manual clearly says that “post” = master vol and “pre” = without.

Trim the room volume back via the level controls on the PA's power amps or powered speakers. Then you should be able to run your master fader at the 0 mark and send healthy level to the recorder.

bouldersound, post: 467925, member: 38959 wrote:
Trim the room volume back via the level controls on the PA's power amps or powered speakers. Then you should be able to run your master fader at the 0 mark and send healthy level to the recorder.

Good thinking. It’s the only way.

If there only would be away to get a “line” signal out of that mixer, I wouldn’t have to touch the PA. Now, it becomes a balancing act - with a line out I wouldn’t have to worry about the PA volume, but just raise or lower the line signal with the recorder..

There is a monitor out, and the aux sends?
 

Attached files

in a pinch, i've taken a line out of the headphone jack via an insert cable and used the headphone volume knob to control the level to the c/r monitors. i can't say the impedance's are a correct match but it worked for me in the past.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjH8Pz_5IjvAhXPsZ4KHdmBAYcQFjAJegQIGxAD&url=https://www.sweetwater.com/insync/headphone-outputs-used-line-outputs-for-line-level-gear/&usg=AOvVaw3FvtUlLETz7TrVuZnGzU11

Yep, you could use the MONITOR OUT to control the PA level.

But it's actually entirely normal for the RECORD OUT to follow the master fader. The master fader isn't really intended to set the listening volume. It's there to make creative changes such as adding a little boost for a chorus section etc. In a live setting it's pretty standard to have the master fader right around the 0 mark most of the time and set the listening level on the amps (or speaker processor).

Okay. Great. Now here's the other "way" which frees up your mixer to control only the PA room volume with it's main sliders and also allows you to mix and record at whatever volume you'd like without these being affected.

You can do this with a pair of guitar cables.

The OUTPUT to the INPUT= this: From the mixer, you take the AUX 1 and AUX 2 outs and bring those into the recorder line inputs for channel 1 and channel 2. THIS is where the Pre/Post switches are going to do their job. Set them to "Pre". This will be pre-fader for every channel in the mixer and pre eq for every channel in the mixer.

NOW the Tascams inputs are going to act like a recording mixer which they are designed to. Pad/EQ/assign/pan/level Your main slider on the recorder is now your main playback level which you can run BACK into the mixer for playback. I suggest one of the stereo tracks for that.

ON EACH channel of the board you have knobs that are green. These are the AUX sends to the AUX OUTS you hooked to the recorder channels 1&2. They are completely separate from the mixers main outs. You balance your instrument and voice and whatever you plug into the mixer through this BUSS or matrix. Each channel has it's own output to Channel 1 or Channel 2 on the recorder. You choose which via AUX1 channel level or AUX 2 channel level.

This should get you all you need.PLUS. You will be monitoring in real time through the phones output on the mixer.

Link555, post: 467927, member: 31690 wrote:
There is a monitor out, and the aux sends?
 

I know link555 but at the moment they are going somewhere else..

And since the record out is there I thought using that - and isn’t an RCA line signal a better quality than an aux monitor 1/4 jack signal?

I’m planning on recording a full album with this thing :D And would like to make it best possible quality. I don’t have resources for studio time at the moment so it’s going to be old school lo-fi four track tape approach. It will be mastered and partly mixed with a computer later down the line.

Kurt Foster, post: 467928, member: 7836 wrote:
in a pinch, i've taken a line out of the headphone out via an insert cable and used the headphone volume knob to control the level to the c/r monitors. i can't say the impedance's area correct match but it worked for me in the past.

Could work for sure.,,

StupidGuitarist, post: 467931, member: 52518 wrote:
And since the record out is there I thought using that - and isn’t an RCA line signal a better quality than an aux monitor 1/4 jack signal?

Not really

bouldersound, post: 467929, member: 38959 wrote:
Yep, you could use the MONITOR OUT to control the PA level.

But it's actually entirely normal for the RECORD OUT to follow the master fader. The master fader isn't really intended to set the listening volume. It's there to make creative changes such as adding a little boost for a chorus section etc. In a live setting it's pretty standard to have the master fader right around the 0 mark most of the time and set the listening level on the amps (or speaker processor).

Makes sense! I think I’ll just set it to zero and work my way from there.

I’m still pretty sure some club DJs record their sets by using line outs - and surely those recordings don’t increase in volume every time they crank up the chorus?

If you follow what I gave you you will be able to optimize your setup without any odd balancing acts between the live segment of your board and the recording segment. The point is to get a volume controlled signal into your recorders inputs. The EQ and all that is in the recorder. Use it there. All you need from the mixer is a tap of the applied inputs....ie: guitar/voice/whatever

Davedog, post: 467930, member: 4495 wrote:
Okay. Great. Now here's the other "way" which frees up your mixer to control only the PA room volume with it's main sliders and also allows you to mix and record at whatever volume you'd like without these being affected.

You can do this with a pair of guitar cables.

The OUTPUT to the INPUT= this: From the mixer, you take the AUX 1 and AUX 2 outs and bring those into the recorder line inputs for channel 1 and channel 2. THIS is where the Pre/Post switches are going to do their job. Set them to "Pre". This will be pre-fader for every channel in the mixer and pre eq for every channel in the mixer.

NOW the Tascams inputs are going to act like a recording mixer which they are designed to. Pad/EQ/assign/pan/level Your main slider on the recorder is now your main playback level which you can run BACK into the mixer for playback. I suggest one of the stereo tracks for that.

ON EACH channel of the board you have knobs that are green. These are the AUX sends to the AUX OUTS you hooked to the recorder channels 1&2. They are completely separate from the mixers main outs. You balance your instrument and voice and whatever you plug into the mixer through this BUSS or matrix. Each channel has it's own output to Channel 1 or Channel 2 on the recorder. You choose which via AUX1 channel level or AUX 2 channel level.

This should get you all you need.PLUS. You will be monitoring in real time through the phones output on the mixer.

This! Yes and thank you. Will try it for sure!

One thing though - I would need to create “another mix” using only headphones since I’d loose my monitors right? And this “mix” would be without faders - it would be created with the aux levels, is that correct?

AND nothing will have to be kranked to get a small amount of gain. I see you are using the AUX outs already. WHAT ARE THEY GOING TO? I asked an hour ago.

Davedog, post: 467933, member: 4495 wrote:
Not really

Good to know!

StupidGuitarist, post: 467936, member: 52518 wrote:
This! Yes and thank you. Will try it for sure!

One thing though - I would need to create “another mix” using only headphones since I’d loose my monitors right? And this “mix” would be without faders - it would be created with the aux levels, is that correct?

No. You would move you monitors to the "MONITOR" jacks right above the AUXES. It looks like then that the "Local" knob would be its power(volume) knob.

Davedog, post: 467937, member: 4495 wrote:
AND nothing will have to be kranked to get a small amount of gain. I see you are using the AUX outs already. WHAT ARE THEY GOING TO? I asked an hour ago.

They are going into this weird transmitter box which I think goes further onto some monitors when live?! I’m not entirely sure to be honest.

I don’t usually fool around with PA and recording stuff. But since I’ve got more time in my hands now because of no gigs and the world falling apart I thought I’ll educate myself.

You WANT to monitor the INPUT to be in time with any tracks you want to go in on a take. You do this through the monitor section of the board and either use the main outs or the monitor out or both if you have two different sets of speakers.

Davedog, post: 467939, member: 4495 wrote:
No. You would move you monitors to the "MONITOR" jacks right above the AUXES. It looks like then that the "Local" knob would be its power(volume) knob.

Tomorrow is gonna be a long day :) I’ve got to go now but will check in tomorrow!

Thanks so much guys! I really wanna give this little Tascam a chance! The sound quality is great and I love the simplicity of recording by just pressing a button. No screens anywhere!

Davedog, post: 467941, member: 4495 wrote:
You WANT to monitor the INPUT to be in time with any tracks you want to go in on a take. You do this through the monitor section of the board and either use the main outs or the monitor out or both if you have two different sets of speakers.

I get you Dave, but the whole idea is to keep the PA running as normal while recording. I can’t just unplug my monitors and main speakers when recording. It’s gonna be a “live” recording of the band...

StupidGuitarist, post: 467934, member: 52518 wrote:
Makes sense! I think I’ll just set it to zero and work my way from there.

I’m still pretty sure some club DJs record their sets by using line outs - and surely those recordings don’t increase in volume every time they crank up the chorus?

Yes, turn the PA amps/speakers all the way down, set the fader to 0, get decent levels on your master meter, then set your record level on the recorder and the PA level on the amps/speakers.

Sure they do. They're recording their performance, which may include bumping the fader up on occasion.

StupidGuitarist, post: 467931, member: 52518 wrote:

And since the record out is there I thought using that - and isn’t an RCA line signal a better quality than an aux monitor 1/4 jack signal?

Well actually they are both single ended unbalanced connectors, meaning have two conductors, +ve signal and return path connection. Both RCA style connectors and unbalanced 1/4" connectors essentially do the same thing. Its been my experience that RCA jacks are slightly more prone to wear out faster than 1/4" jacks.

RCA plugs were specifically designed for consumer electronics, and as such had to be cheap to manufacture. The metal in the RCA connectors has been made as thin as possible. The shield on RCA plugs loosen after repeated use, resulting in poor connections.

1/4" connectors as a product the resulted from the natural evolution of patchbay plugs. These plugs are designed to make solid connections over repeated plug/unplug cycles.

StupidGuitarist, post: 467943, member: 52518 wrote:
I get you Dave, but the whole idea is to keep the PA running as normal while recording. I can’t just unplug my monitors and main speakers when recording. It’s gonna be a “live” recording of the band.

What are the auxes feeding? I still dont know. Is it something you need both of them for? I didnt think you'd have to unplug your PA at all

What I'm saying is your PA board, the Midas is actually THREE separate mixers. Different types of functions per channel but separate from each other. The mains are not affected by the aux settings nor are the aux settings afeected by the mains and the channels.Unless you assign them to that duty (pre/post)

I can't tell from the photos whether you are using all those outputs or not. Is there some coming from the mains? The Moniotrs? The Auxes?

Davedog, post: 467947, member: 4495 wrote:
What I'm saying is your PA board, the Midas is actually THREE separate mixers. Different types of functions per channel but separate from each other. The mains are not affected by the aux settings nor are the aux settings afeected by the mains and the channels.Unless you assign them to that duty (pre/post)

I can't tell from the photos whether you are using all those outputs or not. Is there some coming from the mains? The Moniotrs? The Auxes?

Hey Dave,

I will look into this as soon as I’m back at the studio! I’m starting to get what you’re saying..

If I can use those auxes to record, that would mean they would send my mix exactly as it is set up on channel faders, right? And I would just have a separate volume control to send that signal out?

To answer to your question where they are going - it’s a weird little transmitter box that is only used for live gigs I think.. So, I could disconnect them for now and record from those outs.

Nevertheless, in a live situation those aux jacks would be in use and I would have to find a way to record from somewhere else on the board. And as far as I can tell, the only “out” that’s left to be used is the “record out”.

When using the record out in a live situation I would still have the fundamental issue of the “rec out” signal being greatly affected by the master vol sliders.

I guess we can easily come to a conclusion that it is a very basic mixer and I would need better gear to do what I want to do.

StupidGuitarist, post: 467952, member: 52518 wrote:
guess we can easily come to a conclusion that it is a very basic mixer and I would need better gear to do what I want to do.

Truer words were never spoken.

The only thing you're missing understanding at this point is that the channel faders/EQ have no effect on the signal coming from the AUX1 and AUX 2 channel feeds unless you ASSIGN it with the PRE/POST switches. PRE= no effect from anything on the channel OTHER than the gain control and POST= all channel controls effect the AUX output per channel. The AUX would always be the amount being sent to the recorder and the channel sliders and EQ would always be what the PA speakers see live.

Good luck.

Davedog, post: 467953, member: 4495 wrote:
Truer words were never spoken.

The only thing you're missing understanding at this point is that the channel faders/EQ have no effect on the signal coming from the AUX1 and AUX 2 channel feeds unless you ASSIGN it with the PRE/POST switches. PRE= no effect from anything on the channel OTHER than the gain control and POST= all channel controls effect the AUX output per channel. The AUX would always be the amount being sent to the recorder and the channel sliders and EQ would always be what the PA speakers see live.

Good luck.

Thank You Dave,

Will be experimenting with them next time I’m recording.

I still can’t get my head around the idea of my “Line out” not being a true line out. Here’s a direct quote from the web explaing any standard mixer ‘rec out’ function:

“The REC OUT usually works independently of the master level control - so that it outputs a steady 0dB signal regardless of where the master rotary/fader is set at.”

That’s what I think a record out should be as well.

I don't know where you got that quote, but in my decades of experience, the Record Out is pretty much always after the master fader.

Ok

bouldersound, post: 467955, member: 38959 wrote:
I don't know where you got that quote, but in my decades of experience, the Record Out is pretty much always after the master fader.

Ok! Good info.

Well, all I’m really after is a line level out that includes the mix.. it’s just a bit confusing since with a mixer the master volumes are primarily used for controlling the PA - why would it be beneficial for them to control the “line out” signal too? A separate control for the line out signal strength would be the solution..

StupidGuitarist, post: 467957, member: 52518 wrote:
Ok

Ok! Good info.

Well, all I’m really after is a line level out that includes the mix.. it’s just a bit confusing since with a mixer the master volumes are primarily used for controlling the PA - why would it be beneficial for them to control the “line out” signal too? A separate control for the line out signal strength would be the solution..

A "pro" setup would typically use the master fader as more of a creative control than just a volume knob for the PA. The volume would be set at the amps or powered speakers. Then the record output would capture any deliberate fader moves. If I were mixing on even a small rig like that, I'd do it that way. It actually works out really well when I record on my Zoom H5, feeding the mixer out to the H5 line inputs and capturing the stage noise on the stereo mic. If stage noise gets louder, I'll probably push the master fader up a little to keep the balance. That will be reflected in the recording and I won't have to adjust it later.

That said, a more advanced mixer would allow for a separate recording mix and a lot of other mix options (matrix and aux mixing). But you don't have all that stuff and, to be honest, you don't really need it as much as you think. Just put your fader at 0 and turn down your amps/speakers.

bouldersound, post: 467958, member: 38959 wrote:
A "pro" setup would typically use the master fader as more of a creative control than just a volume knob for the PA. The volume would be set at the amps or powered speakers. Then the record output would capture any deliberate fader moves. If I were mixing on even a small rig like that, I'd do it that way. It actually works out really well when I record on my Zoom H5, feeding the mixer out to the H5 line inputs and capturing the stage noise on the stereo mic. If stage noise gets louder, I'll probably push the master fader up a little to keep the balance. That will be reflected in the recording and I won't have to adjust it later.

That said, a more advanced mixer would allow for a separate recording mix and a lot of other mix options (matrix and aux mixing). But you don't have all that stuff and, to be honest, you don't really need it as much as you think. Just put your fader at 0 and turn down your amps/speakers.

Spot on! I was talking with someone today who has plenty of experience and he said pretty much exactly the same thing.

And totally agree with you about the room mic - could even be run directly into the Tascam machine on a separate track (if it'll take it) and then blend that in nicely.

Whole heartedly appreciate all the input from everyone and I think I've learned some with this thread. I hope it'll open up some ideas for others too.

Thank you y'all!

Is the sub input on the Tascam not designed as an input, but just a way to get a stereo input direct to the Tascam's output for cascading them. Using that as an input won't let it appear on any of the input channels.

paulears, post: 468410, member: 47782 wrote:
Is the sub input on the Tascam not designed as an input, but just a way to get a stereo input direct to the Tascam's output for cascading them. Using that as an input won't let it appear on any of the input channels.

7/8 input is intended by design to mix in midi sources or reverb / efx returns. there is no direct path to the recorder. you must use either the 7/8 sub or the channel strips / line inputs.