Hi kids. The upgrade has officially started. The first item has been on my list for a very long time. Chances are it will never leave my side. I have wanted a special chain for that great vocal sound, specific lead instruments etc, one that stays patched because it is what it is and it starts with a great preamp. (okay purists. I'm one. it starts with the source. but AFTER the source and the mic. )
I have found and added a very good condition Groove Tubes ViPre. Aspen Pittman is a genius and this thing is proof of it.
Next. Phoenix DRS-Q4 and a Summit DCL-200.
Comments
So, Chris.....Have you investigated the hardware version of the
So, Chris.....Have you investigated the hardware version of the Shadow Hills comp yet? Theres optical...same system parts as the LA2A, theres VCA, three different transformers with different core material, all parts are completely switchable out of circuit, detent switches everywhere....A beast. Under 7K....I can only imagine what the real deal looks like.....Fairchild level of operation.
RE Shadow Hills: This aught to charge up some discussion over time.
I'm not too excited on Shadows Hills anything. Looks like over priced clever eye candy marketing to me. Great looking gear. My first impression is what a terrible website and idiotic marketing. Then, the Summing box they make is the furthest thing from right. Those extra valves and tranny they add are a gimmick to me. I don't need crud, color and extra circuits added to a summing amp. SPL and Dangerous have it right.
FWIW, when you add a tranny or other stuff for "colour" into the equation of a summing amp, it softens the attacks of transients. Thats the last thing I need. Mass headroom and silky clean, transparent straight line is ALL I want. But I can see why some people like what they are promoting. A hunch, this product would attract more users with sound plagued from poor converters, zzzy music.
I get colour from other methods, don't want it there for certain. Thats how I hear it all.
So after seeing how they understand that, I don't trust what they are doing.
I see what you mean about the site!! LOL what a trip...... So yo
I see what you mean about the site!! LOL what a trip...... So you dont like transformer based gear? I know some of it adds 'color' I'm not a big fan of color but it can be useful on certain styles of music. The LA2A is definately a unit of some coloration. A color of greatness but still adds something. The thing I liked about the Shadow Hills was the ability to dial out color by use of the optical and the nickle-core transformers. In rudimentary electronic designs, there are many circuits that have transformers, tubes, and essentially the same building blocks as a Fender amp but they add nothing to the sound. Designed that way I'm sure.
Of course we all hear differently and thats the beauty of production.
Its good that you have a handle on your direction for your room.
Tell me what you hear on the newest take in the dropbox.
Davedog, post: 396979 wrote: I see what you mean about the site!
Davedog, post: 396979 wrote: I see what you mean about the site!! LOL what a trip...... So you dont like transformer based gear? I know some of it adds 'color' I'm not a big fan of color but it can be useful on certain styles of music. The LA2A is definately a unit of some coloration. A color of greatness but still adds something. The thing I liked about the Shadow Hills was the ability to dial out color by use of the optical and the nickle-core transformers. In rudimentary electronic designs, there are many circuits that have transformers, tubes, and essentially the same building blocks as a Fender amp but they add nothing to the sound. Designed that way I'm sure.
Of course we all hear differently and thats the beauty of production.
Its good that you have a handle on your direction for your room.
Tell me what you hear on the newest take in the dropbox.
NOT in a summing amp! Comps, etc for sure. But definitely not in the summing section. So my comments and judgement on Shadow Hills is based from them building a summing amp made stupid.
IMHO, anyone that goes for that concept, and markets something like that, doesn't understand the concept of hybrid done right. But, this would exclude anyone wanting a Shadow Hills colour adding into everything thing they own. But again, why would we ever pay from something that takes away or colours the transients in the summing section? Its not logical. Its a gimmick.
So, an API 2500 sounds like an API 2500 with Shadow Hills. Or an U87 always sound like a Shadow Hills u87. Follow? Nothing is pure and everything is altered including other peoples mixes.
If you want colour, The Folcrom is the ticket. But I am talking about summing now, not comps.
I have the raw tracks but that involves going back through and c
I have the raw tracks but that involves going back through and closing everything on the individual tracks. Theres nothing on the 2-bus. Its the way i would send it to the Mastering house. we could talk about stems if you want to experiment with that. It'll take a bit and I gotta go do some business downtown but will be back this afternoon. I . for one, would like to figure out how to send stems back and forth for processing at different places. I think this is the model of an upwardly mobile and flexible studio. Things I dont have I should be able to hire out and continue my production process with the client reaping the benefit.
Here's what I hear. If I was mixing this, I would get all the
Here's what I hear.
If I was mixing this, I would get all the added plug-in out of there and get back to the original sound and Blues! Those plugs do nothing, Dave. They are for the most part a gimmick and added smear.
Here's my thoughts on all this. How many comps and eq's do we really need on every track ITB? For the majority, one well designed EQ one each channel is all I need. Then a few dynamic controllers that can be strapped on a 2-bus, a clean verb, delay etc. the basics... .
And these should be transparent and not smear our sound. But people can't hear that until you relearn what you are listening for. Its a nightmare once you are all caught up in this facade. All this extra hype on these plug-ins was created around the Bull Shit Avid started because their products sounded like cheap samplers. And of course we needed DSP and it to work for everyone with a Mac.
A DAW is a multitrack sampler. Some have better editing and workflow than others.
10 years later we are still believing this BS. The first thing you do it stop using plug-ins! Less is always better. I know there are exceptions and these would be the clinical tools and automation.
Record at low volumes so the transients can breath its where it starts and ends. Then, mixing OTB with some juice sure makes all the difference. Right now everything is so amalgamated from the plug-ins rubbing, there is no life. Its not just you doing this. Its the sound of sample based music. Pro Tools etc. " A DAW is a multitrack sampler"
This is Blues, its not dance music. You don't need all the junk added. Trust me. These guys play so well, you've got them all controlled to a point, nothing is excited and dynamic. Its all controlled in the mix and I cannot do it justice OTB.
If you can, I know this is a task, but if you could take off all the compression on every track, remix it all so that it sounds like them playing together and save it. Don't think about it too much. Just set the levels for them and save it. Ill, do my thing on this end and see if it makes a difference.
Davedog, post: 396984 wrote: I have the raw tracks but that invo
Davedog, post: 396984 wrote: I have the raw tracks but that involves going back through and closing everything on the individual tracks. Theres nothing on the 2-bus. Its the way i would send it to the Mastering house. we could talk about stems if you want to experiment with that. It'll take a bit and I gotta go do some business downtown but will be back this afternoon. I . for one, would like to figure out how to send stems back and forth for processing at different places. I think this is the model of an upwardly mobile and flexible studio. Things I dont have I should be able to hire out and continue my production process with the client reaping the benefit.
I think it would be well worth the effort and a welcoming discovery! I have some time right now to share.
Ya, working with stems is very cool. Pro's and cons and a big topic, definitely where I'm heading.
More to share for everyone. This will help everyone one planet
More to share for everyone.
This will help everyone one planet listening. If you aren't doing dance music, take the shit off the tracks and let the music breath naturally. Let those peaks live! Track it right so you don't need to fix it with plug-in and compression. Of course if you are tracking a bunch of idiot head bangers that don't understand dynamic, I guess we need the control but who wants to be tracking that crap anyway.
I track at low volume, and I plan way ahead so the 2-bus has extra headroom. - 8 at the mastering bus is really sweet and when the faders are still close to 0. I hardly touch my faders. When I have to touch them, I feel like I scratched a new paint job.
If you are having to pull faders down because your 2-bus is in the red, you are killing it. You should indeed be thinking about mixing OTB too. Why Mixing OTB rocks. So we don't have to control our individual tracks and compress them. The secret is in the transients. So if you are taking away transients, you are ultimately turning your music into sampled based audio. Times that by 48 tracks with plug-ins all working and it is nothing but crud.
Limiters are nesesary but use those at the end. Not during the mix. I would however, use a limitier if I have an out of control spike that I wanted to catch so it did't effect all the other tracks down the pipe. But, ya know what, rather than reaching for that limiter, thats the beauty with Samplitude! Object based editing. Fix that spot and keep it clean.
And many plug-in compressors, man they are over rated. To my ears, plug-in comps do a really goofy things to sound. They take space away and you often don't realize it at the time. And plug-in reverbs, yuck! Talk about making your life hard.... Talk about creating a box. But, we all don't have the luxury to by 4 Bricasti's . But if we are aware of these things I mention, allow room, your mixes will sound glorious!
food for thought. If you take an image of a cartoon ( like a sm
food for thought.
If you take an image of a cartoon ( like a smiley ) you can shrink that image so tiny and still see that it is a smiley. However, If you take an image of a human face and try and shrink it down to the size of the smiley, it will look like a blur.
Music is the same. Electronic music ( missing transients, or full spectrum) can get really loud online and we don't notice its missing anything. Electronic samples are like cartoons or animated music. Pop music is a form of animated audio. We have a real singer inside a cartoon.
But organic music rich in acoustic transients are just like a picture of a human face. You cannot increase the volume of the master without removing the detail that hide in the transients and space your can't see.
So, depending on what you do to each track, all the way through the digital factory, will determine how clear and "real" open and alive it all sounds at the end of the day. Limiters and plug-ins are what remove the real, or turn it into animation, a cartoon. And a lot of that detail isn't seen in the digital meter.
To make things even more interesting, combine rich acoustic music in a DAW, add plug-ins and VST's and you have a sonic nightmare, quagmire. Tracks that can get so loud beside others that can hardly compete in the same song.
Hybrid Audio is the art of creating balance between real and animation, so a Rembrandt looks good on the same wall as Abstract art. So it sounds good in the "wall" of sound.
excellent posts Chris. I couldnt agree more. I will tell you tha
excellent posts Chris. I couldnt agree more. I will tell you that nothing I've added has been for repair. These tracks are recorded with intense care and levels are perfect. I add things looking for a 'sound'. I dont need anything on them but i am searching for something outside of what could be a demo level record. I cant help the need for brick-wall limiting it is what we all have to work against. Since this release is looking at national exposure, there are certain things I'll have to do to compete with big room releases.
Davedog, post: 396993 wrote: I will have to understand how to ta
Davedog, post: 396993 wrote: I will have to understand how to take the sub-master stems off the session in order to send those to the dropbox. I need to know this anyway nows as good a time as any.
I've cleared a mix without any plugs I'll send it later tonight after I get the levels right.
You could either, just give me a stereo track ( like you have been) but mixed without any limiting or compression on the tracks.
Or,
I always create stereo subgroups 1 to 8. Example: Drums, Bass, Vox, Guitars, Synths, Harmonies, Percussion, Effects. I bus all the individual tracks into one of those 8 (more or less) groups. Then select (solo) however you do it in Pro Tools) each group and save ( bounce) them as a complete stereo wave tracks. Make sure they are all saved at zero so they line up. And even better if you don't do a SRC ( sample rate conversion) . If your session is at 88.2, bounce them as that. No need to dither.
This is how the ReMix's are done. Stem mixing keeps the producers general effects and mix in tack but breaks it up enough to actually work on it in greater detail than just mastering.
I import these stems and do my thing. In some cases, depending on what the producer wants, I can rewrite ( replace etc) a stem, a part, bar, effect etc. I also have more control on shaping the entire mix OTB. I do the same here. Send all the stems OTB ( avoid SRC) and save that complete session onto a second DAW ( capture DAW) for finalizing > mastering> online distribution . It Rocks!
Make sense?
Creating subgroups(stems) is something i have done for many many
Creating subgroups(stems) is something i have done for many many years so thats not the problem. Its getting the bounce to include ONLY the subgroups. And getting them out as individual sections so you can line them up is where I dont know much. Once things go to the computer I'm in unknown territory for me....Maybe soloing them will work for me. We'll see. My sessions are all at 24/48 and I only dither @CD printing.
The track without (okay a couple of limiters) on things is now available. Theres a limiter across the drum bus due to the summing of 10 tracks getting the submaster a little out of hand and seeing peaks I dont allow.....the bass has a particular comp on it that gets it to thump more than is actually on the track.....theres now a verb on the voice but only on a sidefill track not the main voice. Thats it. Its called ILIKEIT X wav on the dropbox.
Okay, backup time... Comparing the other mix to this, I like bef
Okay, backup time... Comparing the other mix to this, I like before compared to now because the drums are too far back now. Stems are the only way I can actually play with the mix. Now that you mentioned the kit was hot, running out of room, and limiting it, that's what I'm hearing and know is killing this mix. We got to get you OTB Dave. You don't run out of room like that, OTB.
The part that goes, "You no exactly how I feel" , after the harp, why does it die there? Is that the limiter?
audiokid, post: 397002 wrote: Okay, way more life now!!!!!!! Sou
audiokid, post: 397002 wrote: Okay, way more life now!!!!!!! Sounds like a different mix. Its opening up. I'd like to hear this without the limiter on the drums. Rather see them clip than limited.
The main Vox has way too much verb.Having the stems would be awesome.
I'm working on them. Learning a lot doing this. Reverb is all about taste. I dont like it all that much either but it is what I am moving into at this point of the mix. Learn as you burn......I dont allow clipping. No red lights at all. Not in digital. If was a tape machine the meters would only lift from the pegs when they took a breath.
audiokid, post: 397004 wrote: Okay, backup time... Comparing the
audiokid, post: 397004 wrote: Okay, backup time... Comparing the other mix to this, I like before compared to now because the drums are too far back now. Stems are the only way I can actually play with the mix. Now that you mentioned the kit was hot, running out of room, and limiting it, that's what I'm hearing and know is killing this mix. We got to get you OTB Dave. You don't run out of room like that, OTB.
The part that goes, "You no exactly how I feel" , after the harp, why does it die there? Is that the limiter?
Cant afford it. Yet. But I want to see what it sounds like OTB. I've worked on enough Large Consoles to understand fidelity simply because of headroom.
The band lays way back during that part. Its their arrangement and not a problem with a piece of gear . Its the way they interpret their song. The whole song concept is one of controlled groove. I wont mix it up further than their vision of how it moves forward. I know them pretty well.....The last 2trk I put up had no limiting on anything except the drum bus and it was only catching the red light peaks. The bass has that compressor but thats it. Nothing anywhere else. Other effx included verb on the secondary vocal tracks the main stereo track is dry....a delay on the lead guitar part...Fender Amp reverb on the tracked original guitar and some little pedal thingy.....Aphex Compellor on the bass....DBX160sl on the vocal tracks but only 1.5 to 1....smoother....
audiokid, post: 397005 wrote: Ah, something else I'm tuning in o
audiokid, post: 397005 wrote: Ah, something else I'm tuning in on.... The band is dragging in the guitar solo. I would speed that up if possible. Can you do this in PT?
Hope these suggestions sit well with you and help!
Yeah.....Just a hair. This drummer is a serious metronome. Usually you can drop it in anywhere in a song on the tempo he calls and it'll sync right up. Like you said....its the Blues....there will be warts. Unless it makes me flinch I never 'fix' anything.
audiokid, post: 397006 wrote: Ah, more. I think I have pinned d
audiokid, post: 397006 wrote: Ah, more.
I think I have pinned down something. In this last mix, if I compress it and boost the gain, the mix starts to sound like the others. So my question is, is this basically what you are doing ?
Maybe. Its like I've been saying, there's not too much of anything on anything and nothing except the two-bus for the drums is a repair. Its really natural. When you get the stems you'll understand.....it is the way it was recorded with no fluff. This is the way these guys sound live. My job is to move it into a more commercially viable setting. Not current commercial but big-time Blues on Tour.
I AM going to mix this from stems like I always do only now I know how to make separate sessions with them. As soon as I figure out how to put these in the dropbox we're in business. But now I'm going to bed.
Yer the admin....makes me no difference. I have the stems done
Yer the admin....makes me no difference. I have the stems done but still dont know how to get them into the dropbox. I was watching a tutorial and they kinda went through the steps to an ftp site but it wasnt clear as it could have been. I'll keep looking. Tomorrow we track the rest so tonight I need to prep some listening mixes for the band. I wont be here much.
Hi Chris. A weekend of tracking. Not done yet. I havent had the
Hi Chris. A weekend of tracking. Not done yet. I havent had the time to continue our jaunt. Will let you know more later. Our deadline is fast approaching to get product done and wrapped up in time for the Journey To Memphis. We have a few personnel issues showing up so I probably wont be able to take this to the level I want. I will hold out sessions for sharing with you at a future time as I'm interested in what OTB Hybrid with the level of gear quality you have can do to a mix.Stay tuned we'll get there just not soon.
Hi Chris. The new file in the dropbox is the one with 'bounce' i
Hi Chris. The new file in the dropbox is the one with 'bounce' in its title. It has the Shadow Hills plug on the output but is ready for the Limiter and the Bricasti. There may be some pumping but you can deal with it. Let me know what you think. This is the one I tore apart and started again with. All the drum edits are done as well as the the spaces between the vocals. I had lost the hat cymbal mic mid way through this tracking...so it got eliminated. Theres plenty in the overheads and the phase issue I was hearing is gone now.
This is, on occasion, the problem with small D Chinese capsules. They work great one day and then nothing. To remedy this I was going to buy a pair of Neumann 184's but couldnt get the price point I wanted. I bid on a couple of sets on ebay and unbelievably both sets sold for more than you can buy brand new ones for at a discount retailer! Some people dont get it. Anyway, I went ahead and got another pair of AT4041's. Great mics and black friday sales priced I couldnt resist!
Should solve the hat mic problem.