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DogsoverLava 3 April 2015

Original Song:
First real completed mix of this -- trying for a real "sway" kinda feel (hips moving) -- laying back - trying to get a rolling groove going (even though I'm using Superior Drummer). Still working at achieving an Americana kind of rock feel - a little Southern, and little California - a little Nashville. trying to develop my vocabulary here. Any thoughts or comments welcome.

There are a few exposed elements in the mix - hoping for some direction there to help me with it. As far as genre - also looking for some direction there. Where does this dwell?

[MEDIA=soundcloud]dogsoverlava/have-you-ever-wondered[/MEDIA]

Anyway -- as always - thanks for any input offered.

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Comments

pcrecord Fri, 04/03/2015 - 20:02

Hey thanks for sharing your work, Interesting song !
About the mix, everything seems well balance in termes of volume, pan and space.
The only thing is, you seem to have a case of over abuse of Hipass filters (specially the lead vocal).
The drum isn't suffering too much of it, and the guitars are near ok, but the bass is too far in the mix and the vocals are very thin.
Is it possible that your listening system gives you too much bass ?

audiokid Fri, 04/03/2015 - 20:27

pcrecord, post: 427528, member: 46460 wrote: The only thing is, you seem to have a case of over abuse of Hipass filters (specially the lead vocal)

Love it when we disagree like this!
hehe, sounds great to me! sort of 54 40 (y)
Those guy in the east don't know the west coast tricks hehe!!! :p

Vox is great, you have room for the bass now! Fill the mix with sub info
I think the mix is lacking bass in the bass itself, not the vox, its right on! Its ready for the bass detail.

Make me proud!:love:

DogsoverLava Fri, 04/03/2015 - 22:50

Thanks guys -- yes I've two main listening stations functional right now and one is very bass heavy and the other bass lacking so I was shooting for the middle but fell short. Just did the car trip around the block (which has been a good place to check mixes for me) and I did hear the lack of bass and a little harshness on the vocals (which I think are need to be lowered slightly by a few db). I'll work on bring the bass back in and see what the effect is. It may "soften" the vocals just by inclusion.

pcrecord Sat, 04/04/2015 - 05:19

The bass instrument is much better in place now. I still think the vocals still miss the bottom content but, I fully respect that it may be an artistic decision.
Since I don't like long vocal bending in general, the back vocal last bend is a bit disturbing for me. It's a very personnal comment but I would have made only one pitch progression in the chorus (on the word why) because it gets weird at the end.

audiokid, post: 427529, member: 1 wrote: Love it when we disagree like this!

Everyone is different in his/her background, influences, experiences and taste. It's fun to challenge ideas and opinions! ;)
I rather write an opinion that is way off track and be corrected than be silent. I think it's the best way to learn, specially when the ego is put aside !

DogsoverLava Sat, 04/04/2015 - 10:39

pcrecord, post: 427544, member: 46460 wrote: The bass instrument is much better in place now. I still think the vocals still miss the bottom content but, I fully respect that it may be an artistic decision.
Since I don't like long vocal bending in general, the back vocal last bend is a bit disturbing for me. It's a very personnal comment but I would have made only one pitch progression in the chorus (on the word why) because it gets weird at the end.

Everyone is different in his/her background, influences, experiences and taste. It's fun to challenge ideas and opinions! ;)
I rather write an opinion that is way off track and be corrected than be silent. I think it's the best way to learn, specially when the ego is put aside !

I'm feeling you on the bg vocals. I was trying to create the illusion of a looser more live vibe - where the chorus and bg vocals sounded like the band members were stepping up to the mic in a live sort of way - a bit haphazard with a bit of a disorganized and not written out kind of harmony -- I ended phrases at slightly different times. Listening back I see that getting old fast. Before we're done here I'll re-record them a bit more gently but with more precision and less bending and crossing. I think you are spot on on the critique -- they become a distraction on repeated listens. Could the bass come up more in the bass? Is there a frequency that's calling out in the bass to be filled?

audiokid Sun, 04/05/2015 - 16:38

the guitar and the snare is out of balance between the bass and vox. . I would reduce the guitar 4db down, most likely 2 db on the snare and you'll need to adjust the hats then too. I'd still add more subs to the bass bit right now the balances are off. . Your snare could have a bit better verb on it as well.

the mix is so close to big improvements. If you get it sitting right, a wide curve in the mastering will make great change. You need to get the balances better first. Make sense? Hope that helps.
.

DogsoverLava Sun, 04/05/2015 - 18:20

Thanks Chris - so I dropped the Guitars, snare and hats as recommended - added a we bit of verb to snare and gave the bass almost 1db boost with a few tweaks to the eq on it (adding back a little in the 90hz and 180hz range - very subtle). Also did a tiny tiny tiny adjustment on the EQ of the Lead vocal - just slightly pulled the curve left -- even more subtle). At this point I've made no changes to the track itself in terms of retracking vocals or bg vocals --- this way I can focus on the improvements made on the changes made (cause effect).

[MEDIA=soundcloud]dogsoverlava/have-you-ever-wonderedv3

As far as Mastering goes -- I have no idea what that fully does to a track at this stage - would I be right in assuming that Mastering would be done on the two track master channel? Does a Masterer need stems or does he take a two track?

Also - as I've been using Superior drummer - I've not included any fills in the drum mix so it's relatively straight -- how apparent to the listener is that? How much would drum fills augment the track?

audiokid Sun, 04/05/2015 - 18:35

This is getting so good! Bass is way better.

Your Vox in the verse's are too soft . Turn them up a bit and add a bit of bass on them (just for the verse's)
The snare and hats are still too loud. Turn both of them down another 2 db.

Do this next change for me. Then, upload that to our forum using the upload. I will load it into my DAW and see if an overall freq curve will help.

audiokid Sun, 04/05/2015 - 18:42

DogsoverLava, post: 427614, member: 48175 wrote: As far as Mastering goes -- I have no idea what that fully does to a track at this stage - would I be right in assuming that Mastering would be done on the two track master channel? Does a Masterer need stems or does he take a two track?

Ultimately, a mix should be 95% there . But in some cases, the mixer may not hear what it needs and a master can improve a lot of the mix, especially if the balances are all in place and its a simple process of doing a wide curve here or there like we do on a stereo.
Of course mastering gets very detailed and clinical, but for now, I'm hearing past things and just trying to get your ear better with some suggestions.

DogsoverLava, post: 427614, member: 48175 wrote: Also - as I've been using Superior drummer - I've not included any fills in the drum mix so it's relatively straight -- how apparent to the listener is that? How much would drum fills augment the track?

Fills are always the finishing touches to a cool drum performance. But lets just get the mix sitting better. You can have fum after building is better once you get this closer. The snare room or verb... is imho, still not right but I'm more concerned getting this fuller, fatter.

audiokid Sun, 04/05/2015 - 18:58

Personally, I love stem mastering. I think its the bomb. Did you write this? It sounds familiar.

Another tip, the dynamics of the drums lack, its what give sample drums a band name. But don't take it to heart. I have years experience in programming. Its art and can take days to get just the drums right. I don't always want my drums to fool people, but in the case I would because its got "room to do it. Songs at the bpm, with only the basic 4 piece sound have the potential to get "HUGE" and dynamic sounding. You can program drums so no one would even think about it. But, thats another topic.
I often look at songs with a publishing POV. meaning, get the song fat and punching, if it sounds like its programmed, thats doesn't matter. In fact, that can sell a song better because , imagine how this track would sound with 4 or 5 guys playing it.

DogsoverLava Sun, 04/05/2015 - 19:08

Thanks Chris - This is my original but it's not an unfamiliar chord change so in that sense I'm sure the chorus in particular shares territory with many other songs. I'm not entirely happy with the lyrics - a bit wordy - a bit too much narrative but an earnest anyway. Right now my playing and writing seem to be in an Americana styled idiom -- so I'm just building on that while developing more recording workflow and working with the physical limitations of my nerve impaired hands. Slowly improving there as well. This song came together fast for me - about 10 days total from initial idea to this.

DogsoverLava Sun, 04/05/2015 - 19:26

Rolled the reverb off all the vocals (I had verses, choruses and bgs all on separate stems/takes) and rolled the bass back off the verses as well and tried to match it a little closer to the lead vocal on the choruses).

Thanks for your help for sure - I will leave all the stuff up on my soundcloud as I posted it. Your compliments are very generous. It sure gives me a lift to hear that kind of feedback. I've got another song in this genre as well that I'm trying to finish. A little more sophisticated compositionally but something that fits quite well with this.

[MEDIA=audio]http://recording.or…

Attached files Have you ever wonderedV5.mp3 (12.8 MB) 

audiokid Sun, 04/05/2015 - 20:14

Production talk,

A B3 would sound deadly in this on the chorus, maybe the 3 one. . Just a bit with some roto going on. A different snare that was more of a thwack with less top, maybe a bit of the rim in there so its got an attitude. I would use that as an velocity effect ( as your velocity increases, the Thwack gets louder). What I mean there is you can have the snare rim or bottom mic louder on the 4th or on fills, controlled by a volume increase. It would add more more color to the snare.

This is really fun. Hope I've been helpful.

Cheers!

DogsoverLava Sun, 04/05/2015 - 20:21

A couple things: Listening position is wickedly important - speakers to ear/head level so I must remind myself to get into position for listening. My headphones are definitely too bass heavy and my speakers in my recording room lack bass so I'm always trying to get a balance between the two. I just recently plugged in a very bass heavy HT system that I'm blending between the small high ceramic speakers of my 80's JVC system to get the mix right (but I have no really good immediate reference set in the room to check). Alone the JVC sounds bass deficient - so when I bump up the bass while mixing on that alone it's too much.

Both your mixes sound good - the second one better on my JVC system (more obvious bass) and blended between the two speakers systems both mixes sound pretty awesome. Not sure where the sweet spot should be (almost wonder if there's a 'tweener) - but I'll definitely use this track as a reference when dialing in a mix. What's your preference? In my Headphones alone the bass in the second is pretty dominant.

DogsoverLava Sun, 04/05/2015 - 20:35

audiokid, post: 427630, member: 1 wrote: Production talk,

A B3 would sound deadly in this on the chorus, maybe the 3 one. . Just a bit with some roto going on. A different snare that was more of a thwack with less top, maybe a bit of the rim in there so its got an attitude. I would use that as an velocity effect ( as your velocity increases, the Thwack gets louder). What I mean there is you can have the snare rim or bottom mic louder on the 4th or on fills, controlled by a volume increase. It would add more more color to the snare.

This is really fun. Hope I've been helpful.

Cheers!

Ya - Thanks Chris for this - I'm really tickled by the effort and assistance. I'm with you on the B3 -- That's what I heard in my head too. I tried to get that organ vamping feel in the breakdown section with the slide guitar. (it's actually two guitar parts playing with a very lazy and delicate up-stroke pick attack in unison). For the slide part I just flipped the guitar on my lap with the neck pointing right and used an Sm57 s my slide like a lap steel guitar. I thought of picking up a little arturia minilab keyboard - might still do that next week.

audiokid Sun, 04/05/2015 - 20:37

PS, the mix, which I can't fix or demonstrate, is lacking in the overall low mid, Do you see where I reduced it on the EQ. It actually needs that increased in the music a bit. Its hard to pin it down but its still not as full as it could get.
I reduced it there because the kick is heavy there. So, if you pull that out in the KICK, you can increase that in the music. And so it goes like this until its glued.

I mix into the master. There is nothing better than that to me. Its the ultimate way to mix music.
Love our DAW's.

Matt Tue, 04/07/2015 - 11:35

A huge improvement. I made it a point to listen to it before reading any comments and what I thought is definately in line with the changes. My initial reaction was not enough low end, too much vocal verb in the verse and lacking some dynamics and build ups on the drums especially leading into the harmonies of the chorus. I sounds great now and I would focus on the drums for a bit. But I am a drummer so I tend to be critical about drums.

DogsoverLava Tue, 04/07/2015 - 12:19

Matt, post: 427712, member: 48561 wrote: A huge improvement. I made it a point to listen to it before reading any comments and what I thought is definitely in line with the changes. My initial reaction was not enough low end, too much vocal verb in the verse and lacking some dynamics and build ups on the drums especially leading into the harmonies of the chorus. I sounds great now and I would focus on the drums for a bit. But I am a drummer so I tend to be critical about drums.

Thanks Matt - I've purchased an Arturia Minilab and will be taking it with me this weekend (to a conference) and I'll woodshed a bit in the hotel room at night and see if I can develop some workflow to write and perform better drum parts (a deviation from the straight midi drag and drop on this track).

I'm taking a couple days away from the main track to allow my ears to readjust - then I'll come back to it and try to replicate Chris' EQ treatment within the individual stems, make some adjustments to the drums, and maybe add some keys per Chris's suggestion.

audiokid Tue, 04/07/2015 - 12:25

Thanks for all the kind comments.

Maybe this will help you as much as its helped me:
Coming from a guy who has been programming drums for 3 1/2 decades, I've been using MPC60's for years. Today I use an MPC Renaissance. They are awesome. If you invested in some sort of drum pad, I think it would step your game up significantly.

simman Sun, 05/10/2015 - 08:02

I like the song and think it has real potential. I agree with the comment about too much high pass on the LD vocal. I do agree that the mix is balanced but to me it just seems to lack overall dynamics/emotion. The song starts at a pace and never really seems go anywhere, IMO. Granted some of this is a stylistic thing not a mix issue and drum dynamics might help that a bit and I might also try different drum samples especially the snare - nothing like a good crack of a snare.

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