Here it is Thursday afternoon...and still no UPS truck from Markertek...Grrrrr...Where's my foam??? Hehe...anxious little snit, aren't I?

Ya mean foaming at the mouth ain't enough? :=)

Well...my big packages of foam arrived late yesterday afternoon. My wife's first comment was, "You paid *how much* for a bunch of packing material????" Women! Hehe...

Hopefully tonight I'll get a chance to work on it...

DH
It is probably agood idea to unpack the foam and let it relax at room temp for a day or so before you attempt to glue it up. Fats

Hey James, glad the foam isn't only at the mouth - What Fats mentioned about taking the foam out of the packages reminded me - some of these foams have been known to outgas for a few days, and there may be formaldehyde involved. If you notice a smell that you don't like, it might be a good idea to separate the foam in a protected but airy place, like a garage, and let a fan or two blow through it for a couple of days. The fumes from some of this stuff can make you sick if you don't air it out first.

Fats, glad you mentioned taking the stuff out of the box, I had forgotten about some of these things... Steve

Ahh, there is nothing like the smell of formaldehyde in the morning. DH, can I come over to play…I love a good formaldehyde buzzzzzzzzzzzz. :D

Steve,
Good point! A lot of times MarkerTek ships foam wrapped up in a cylinder held together with shrink wrap. If you try to hang it without letting it "relax", it will curl up and come off the wall. Letting the product air out is a real good idea too, unless your like me and suffer from brain damage from all the years of abuse (a child of the '60's). I heard FOX wants to do a "That 60's show" but they can't find anyone who remembers what it was like
....... :D ......Fats

Well, as it turns out, I have been unable to install any of the foam anyway...this has been the weekend from hell, so the foam has had a great chance to air out! I actually spread it all out on Friday night before a quick session that I had planned, and looked at how I was going to lay it all out...so it should be good and aired out before I get to it again...

Unfortunately, the baseball playoffs are going on again tonight, so ain't nothing gonna happen again tonight! :) I should get this batch up sometime this week though...

I can tell already that I need to order more foam, I only ordered 4 bass traps, I hav no idea what I was thinking!!! My ceilings are 7'7" high, and it will take 3+ bass traps for each corner...I must have been having a 60's flashback when I ordered those... Plus, as I mentioned earlier, I didn't order anything for the back wall yet (behind me in the sitting position), so I need to get at least 6 more bass traps for the back corners, plus the diffusion stuff for the back wall and ceiling.

The 2" stuff from Markertek is more like the Auralex "Wedgies" product, rather than the standard 2" Auralex blade tiles. They have smaller and more numerous blades on them than the standard tiles. Here is a quote from the Auralex web page ( http://www.auralex.com ):

"Wedgies are 1' squares of 2" thick Studiofoam and are a great solution for spot treating sound studios, home listening rooms, iso booths and more. With slightly more wedges per square foot than 2" acoustic Studiofoam, Wedgies feature maximized surface area for greater exposure to sound waves. Wedgies are a great solution for small flutter echo problem areas and, when spread apart, yield beneficial sound diffusion off their exposed edges."

I am sure they work just fine, they just don't match the 2 big 2' x 4' Auralex panels that I bought a couple of weeks ago.

DH,
You shouldn't need any more foam. The bass traps I described don't reach all the way to the floor. You only need to treat the upper 2/3 ds of the wall. What kiind of adhesive are you sticking it up with? Fats

man, this is a good thread. Im going to refer back to it when i start treating my room. mine is 26 ft X 19ft with 10 ft cielings. i have a 8ft X 10ft vacal booth in one end 1/2 foot from the front wall

All this talk of foam... I want diffusion, and it seems I cant find any except for auralex, and its pricey. The metrofuser seems priced ok, is it any good? ANy help appreciated!

Bill Roberts said:

Look at http://www.acousticsfirst.com and scope ut sound channels and bermuda traps. Great stuff.[QUOTE]

acoustic first has them too but talk about expensive!! Good diffusion is usually pricey.
The Auralex diffusers are the cheapest I have found. Have you seen the newest product they have? Tiles and they don't cost that much. I wonder how effective they are?....Fats

[/QUOTE]

Originally posted by Cedar Flat Fats:
DH,
You shouldn't need any more foam. The bass traps I described don't reach all the way to the floor. You only need to treat the upper 2/3 ds of the wall. What kiind of adhesive are you sticking it up with? Fats

Well that is great news about the bass traps! :)

I have a can of the Auralex spray adhesive, but I need at least one more I think. I have heard that if you want to have the foam be "somewhat" removeable, you should spray only on the foam, if you want it to me more permanent, you should spray the adhesive on *both* the foam and the wall. Any comments?

Well...I finally mounted my foam tonight! :D Lots of work, but it is hopefully worth it! I still need to buy a few more pieces of foam, and the diffusion squares, but at least 90% of the foam is done! I put the 4" thick Markertek foam at the wall ceiling/junctions as you suggested, but I cut it them in half, so the 16" square sections are now 8" x 16". This saved me some of the 4" thick sections to go around, and it looks pretty cool that way! I then have a row of 2" thick Marketek "wedgies" under that, and then the original Auralex 2' x 4' panels that I bought underneath that. Finally, I put the bass traps in the corners. I still need 3 more bass traps, and 2 more of the Auralex tiles to complete the foam treament for the front wall(behind the monitors) and ceiling. I still need to finish the back wall with bass traps, then the diffusion.

So now for the burning question...did all this time/money/energy do any good??? Great question! We will have to wait until tomorrow to find out! I am way too tired to test it! Travelled all day, got back in town, ate dinner, and started cutting foam...I'm sure my ears aren't up to the challenge at this point, so we will have to wait until tomorrow morning to find out! Besides, the foam tack really stinks, and the whole basement smells of glue!

Ahhhhh...the suspense!

Fats and Knightfly...you guys are really awesome! This is a project I have been wanting to tackle for such a long time, and I never could have done it without your help and advice (and encouragement!). I am almost home now!

Cheers! :w:

Here are some results from the sound treatments that I have done in my studio based on all the info in this thread.

First off, subjectively, the room sounds just *fantastic*!!! :) until you get to a *big* peak at 8K:

8K.......+7.5.......+7.0

then things level out again pretty well all the way to 20K...

------------------------------------

Since the EQ is boosting the low frequencies to get the room ot be "flat" (some of them quite dramatically!), does this mean that my foam treatments have squashed all the bass out of my room???

Also, look at the big difference between my L + R channels. What the??? My studio is set up much closer to the Right wall than to the Left wall, and the bass traps are quite close to the speakers (2 - 3 feet). Look at the difference between L & R at 31.5 Hz for example! Wild! You would *think* that since the right speakers are closer to a wall, and closer to a corner with a bass trap, you would get more low frequency absorbance, but maybe with the close proximity to the wall, this effect is negated.

Remember that I still have no treatments whatsoever on the back wall (behind me while sitting)...should I think about adding the bass traps there, or is the bass already too squashed???

How can I interpret this data, and how can I use it to my advantage??? I tried comparing this data to the data that I got from Steve's RoomTune program, but I am really not sure how to interpret the RoomTune data...other than it is useful in pointing out problem frequencies.

Any suggestions here, or is this kind of stuff normal?

Thanks! :w:

DH,
I Think you're in the ballpark! The room should be set up as symmetrically as possible. This is very important! If you can't do it facing one way move the set up until you can get it as symmetric as you can get it. You gotta do this. Once you add some diffusion on the ceiling and the rear wall, some low end will return. Also try taking your settings from a couple of different positions, see what's going on in the corners. You will notice just where you stand in the room while you take measurements can effect readings. I would rather see that the treatments are sucking the lows out rather than there still being a lot of low peaks. It's much better the way it is. kickin' some audio butt! :tu: Fats

"All this talk of foam... I want diffusion, and it seems I cant find any except for auralex, and its pricey. The metrofuser seems priced ok, is it any good? ANy help appreciated! " -

Tubedude, I know what you mean. I doubt if a space shuttle costs as much per pound as some of these "ninth root quadratic hemi-head polysyllabic ectrabob arrays" people dream up -

If you're a heavy reader, one alternative I've heard of is book shelves at the rear, with randomly sized books, all pushed to the back (my thought, seems like it would cause the uneven front depths seen in some of the diffusors)

Another, MUCH cheaper way are DIY poly-cylindrical "absorbers", which also, by their convex nature give good diffusion - there is some good info on those at these two sites -

http://www.discmakers.com/pse/index.html

that link has several good articles on other studio stuff, a basic idea of poly's in the Acoustics Part II article.

As an aside, here is an actual test report on Egg Cartons, and their acoustic properties -

http://www.acousticsfirst.com/docs/egg.PDF

When I went looking for info on poly's, I came up nearly empty - however, I did find some good DIY info on acoustics - follow this one for some good general DIY tips. Unless your time is worth $200 per hour, it'll probably be worth it...

Creamware

For diffusion, convex is good, concave SUCKS. I've even been considering a rear wall (control room) out of those "cottage stones" like Home Depot sells - the ones that are curved in front. It would give (literally) a ton of mass, + a really diffusive surface. Only thing is, it would require a really good support - we're talking about a weight per foot of 8' height wall, of about 700-800 pounds. A 12 foot wall 8 feet high would weigh about 4-1/2 TONS... Still, really cool effect if you're into Gothic/Medieval stuff.

OK, 'nuff rambling here, hope some of these brain-farts helped somebody somewhere... Steve

Knightfly,
Here are some sites for diffusors....Fats
http://www.rpginc.com
http://www.acousticinnovations.com
http://www.silentsource.com/index.html
__________________________________________________________________________

"The extension of the frequency range beyond audibility is beneficial to sound quality and produces brain electrical activity from the area associated with pleasure. The absence of frequencies above 20 kHz result in subliminal frustration and restlessness."

James, cool that the room sounds at least as good as you hoped - However, now is the time for that look at RTA usage. Go here -

[url=link removed[/url]

and click on "understanding RTA" -

as far as the unequal responses, that's normal with a non-symmetrical mix position. Literally EVERY frequency will have different nodes and anti-nodes in a room. The freq's that match modal response will "come out even", and will have nodes at walls and any other boundaries (floor and ceiling) - these freq's will be strongest at the boundaries, having the highest pressure and lowest (zero)velocity. ALL frequencies will have their highest SPL at boundaries, since a boundary by definition STOPS the sound, and zero velocity = maximum pressure.

The FUNDAMENTAL (lowest)frequency for each dimension of the room will be at a NULL dead center between its two corresponding walls (or floor and ceiling) - the SECOND harmonic of each dimension's resonant frequency will have peaks at walls AND CENTER between the two corresponding walls, with TWO nulls spaced equidistant between the peak points. The THIRD harmonic will have peaks at walls, and two more peaks at 1/3 and 2/3 the distance between the walls, with corresponding nulls between the peaks; this goes on up to about 300 hZ; it actually goes on indefinitely, but we don't care above 300, since the nodes are by then so close together as not to be discernible.

If you follow the last paragraph, and realize that this is true of EACH dimension of the room, you can see that placing either speakers or mics (or ears, for that matter) at dead center is usually not good. For the sake of a symmetrical sound field, we HAVE to be centered left-to-right, but should NEVER be centered front-to-back or top-to-bottom. These points will have either nulls or peaks, depending on the harmonic (1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc) at each frequency represented by a room mode.

Even though the foam tames these nodes/antinodes, they are still there and will cause uneven response since some of them are peaks and some are nulls.

These considerations can also help get a better sound when micing any sound source in a tracking room. Sometimes, when you just can't find a good sounding mic position, remember you can also move the sound SOURCE. If you can't get the source to sound good in the room to your EARS, it stands to reason that it won't sound good to a mic either. Move something and try again - sooner or later you'll find the sweet spot for that sound source, then finding a mic position can be as easy (or hard) as walking around until your EAR is happy.

Almost NEVER will either mic or source sound right when centered between any two boundaries. For example, you may find a female vocalist that sounds incredible, but not when you record her - maybe it's because she is only 4 foot 6" tall, your ceilings are 8 feet tall, so guess where her mouth is located when she stands up - halfway between the floor and the ceiling! In this case, I would offer her a stool that puts her head 6" to a foot lower than when standing, and DON'T put the stool centered between any two walls... just one example of creative mic placement based at least somewhat on science instead of magic.

Hey Fats - thanks for those links - I already knew about two of them, but was looking for DIY info for building polycylindrical diffusors. IF James' wife is already making noises about "overpriced packing material", wait til he brings home 8 $200 pieces of plastic 2' square - (RPG)I'm not sure even I could explain that to my wife, and I've gotten away with some serious shit from time to time... :=)

Knightfly,
I hear you, unfortunately nothing else works as well. The bookcase thing, I heard that you should leave a cavity behind the books, for trapping. I'm going to get the RPG's in birch. It's going to be $1000 for the back wall but they will last forever or at least until they come out with a 48 bit 192 k version. Ha Ha Ha Ha :D . I may need some of the Auralex T' Fussors on the ceiling above the mix position but that's all the plastic I'll use. I can't believe how much they are charging for some thin formed plastic. Man, we're really paying for the science on this one aren't we? It must cost them at least a buck or two to stamp these things out. (I wish someone had asked me if I wanted to invest in these thingies.) Foam isn't that expensive to make either. It's the same old story, anything associated with audio costs a billion bucks..rant rant rant! A lot of the "pro rooms" build their own diffusers, must be a place where you can pick up the correct dimensions for these things. It wouldn't do me any good however, I'm mentally challenged when it comes to carpentry. Plus where would I keep all the tools / workshop? You would need a table saw do cut the pieces and I just don't even want to start another collection of stuff to store.............. Fats
__________________________________________________________________________________________

"The extension of the frequency range beyond audibility is beneficial to sound quality and produces brain electrical activity from the area associated with pleasure. The absence of frequencies above 20 kHz result in subliminal frustration and restlessness."

Steve...thanks for the tips, they are actually quite helpful, and believe it or not, make pretty good common sense! Changing the sound source position and mic position is something that I think we all do, "just because it sounds better", but it is interesting to see some of the science behind the scenes. I have a natural vocal booth in my basement in the "L" extension that I described above, and I can get some really awesome sounds, but I have also noticed that the ideal position is not what looks ideal symmetrically, but rather off to one side a bit, etc.

With regard to the symmetry of my listening position...this has concerned me quite a bit since Fats' earlier post on symmetry...Even though it is not possible to move my mixing table setup, I *can* move the monitor position (and chair position). Duh! I was so worried about the desk, I was not thinking that the critical symmetry issue revolves around the monitor and listening position, not where the desk is! I have now actually moved my left monitor stand so that it is symmetrical with the right monitor with respect to the side walls (it involved a move to the left of less than 12"). My monitors are now slightly more than 2 feet from the back wall, (which is much better than they were before), about 3 feet from the side walls and my speaker stands have the speakers positioned about 6" above the center of the floor/ceiling position. This seems to address most of the monitor placement concerns that have been voiced.

I also now know that my earlier RTA readings were slightly flawed with respect to L + R readings (I had the panning setup incorrectly so that the supposed LEFT channel pink noise was actually coming out of both monitors, and the same with the RIGHT. What an idiot!). I might try it again now that I have moved the monitor positions, but after checking out the link above on RTA usage, I might just let it go...

Once big concern I have is with the 8 KHz dip...I wonder if that was just a fluke, and I want to check that again to verify...

I also just got back from Guitar Center and bought those last 2 Auralex tiles that I needed to complete the front wall (behind the monitors), so that might effect the readings as well.

While I was there, I noticed that they have a whole stack of the really basic Auralex diffusers for US$6.95 a piece. They are not the T'Fusers or Metro-Fusers, but they call them the "MiniFusers".

http://www.auralex.com/sound_diffusor_minifusor/sound_diffusor_minifusor.html

I might just cancel my order for the MetroFusers and get a few of these to try...you can't beat the price. It would cost me about US$84.00 for 12 of the Minifusers vs. about US$160 + shipping for 12 of the MetroFusers.

The bottom line is the difference in the sound of my room, and that is *huge*. It is really amazing to me the difference in my sound! Anyone who has not done some form of acoustical treatments to their rooms is really missing out...I can't believe I waited so long! :mad:

Thanks again for everyone's help in this...more to come...

I Love it when a plan comes together...............................
___________________________________________________________________________________

"The extension of the frequency range beyond audibility is beneficial to sound quality and produces brain electrical activity from the area associated with pleasure. The absence of frequencies above 20 kHz result in subliminal frustration and restlessness."

Look here,$18.00 each and free shipping...
http://www.foambymail.com/CornerSolutions.html

NOW we're talking... I'm still looking for some PROPERLY priced diffusors. What a crock of shit to charge so much for some styrofoam. These people need to get real. Maybe I'll buy an RPG Skyline, have it molded and make about 200 of them and sell em to you guys for $10 a piece. Hows that sound? Ha! :)
Ripoff...
Peace.

Tubedude,
Put me down for 10 or 20! Did you see the answer to your question re; design of your room. I really think the panel diffuser I described to you will work in your situation. Shouldn't cost more that $75 to build....Fats

Tubedude!
[[url=http://[/URL]="http://Foambymail.c…"]Foambymail.com[/]="http://Foambymail.c…"]Foambymail.com[/] Great resource. Thanks from all of us! Best price on these products I have seen yet! Fats

For corners, I agree, I have similar corner traps...Ck my new thread...

(Dead Link Removed)

Guys, one LARGE warning about SMALL prices for foam - be SURE to ask if the stuff is class 1 FIRE RETARDANT - can you imagine being in a double walled, nearly air tight room with a flash fire? Makes overdone marshmallows seem like a light tan by comparison.

I've seen people caught in a Zirconium chip flash fire, and trust me - the amount of sleeping pills you need after seeing that (no, neither of them survived, but one took two days to die) will KILL you before you get any sleep.

PuhLeeeeze, don't ignore this to save a few hundred $$$ - who'se gonna know the proper way to fondle all your toys that survive the fire, when you're lookin' like an ad for the Colonel's EXTRA EXTRA CRISPY ???

Think about it... Steve

Good point about the flammability issue. Even if you don't smoke in your studio (who does these days? I certainly don't) certain pieces of tube gear have been known to go up in smoke for no apparent reason. Something to think about.

BTW I smoke and use tube gear. ;)

On the bubblewrap front, I should have guessed. That's what's inside [[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.decware…"]these things.[/]="http://www.decware…"]these things.[/]

:c:

Ok, I found some excellent diffusirs, they are these: http://www.acousticsfirst.com/artdif.htm
Model C-wm is the one. I pushed some buttons and can get a bulk deal at $75 each. Still high as hell, but that is 25% off retail. I have to buy 5 boxes to get that price though, which is 20 diffusors, total, or about $3000. Ouch. THe prices I see listed on these elsewhere is a box of 4 for $390. This is as good as it gets as far as I can find on these type of diffusors. If anyone wants to go in on some, let me know. If we can get enough people to buy 2 or 3 of em at a time, maybe I can order 10 boxes and get em around $65 each.
How much are the nice auralex ones, each?
Anyone else know where these can be had, cheap?
I really am thinking about having a Skyline molded and make about 100 of em. I wont tell if you wont :)
Peace.

Here was an idea I had, might sound kind of stupid, but its an idea for those that dont ahve any money.
UPS and Fedex both make a shipping "tube" for shipping rolled up blueprints, etc, that is a good size triangle shape and is pretty heavy duty. These things would paint very well, and can be had free in many cases. They would glue right to a wall, and could be stuffed with carpet foam or whatever before you hung them. I think they would actually look quite nice once they were painted. I would paint them a different color that matches the curent room color, and then hang them. Bet they would make really nice diffusors placed about an inch apart in about 6x6 foot areas.
Comments?

Here is 10 cartons of the UPS ones for $6.80
3 feet long, 3.5 inches high, $.68 cents a piece. I think a wall sprayer would paint these just fine, leave the wall side unpainted.
Heh...
http://

Here's one i stumbled across:
http://www.stores.ebay.com/gramursupplyco/plistings/list/all/dept6/index.html

Very fair prices, tho i'm not sure about the fire resistance...

"Inflammable means flammable? What a country!" - Dr. Nick

These guys sell fire retardant for foam, cardboard, wood, etc - Sooo, even if some of that cheap foam burns like expensive gas, you could probably tame it with the spray-on stuff.

http://www.natfire.com/

check em out, or not - your call, your insurance... Steve

Knightfly said;

Guys, one LARGE warning about SMALL prices for foam - be SURE to ask if the stuff is class 1 FIRE RETARDANT - can you imagine being in a double walled, nearly air tight room with a flash fire? Makes overdone marshmallows seem like a light tan by comparison.

This is something Auralex has put out there as a selling point and a reason you should pay more for their foam. Fact is all acoustic foam is fire resistant. It's mattress foam that you need to be careful of. If your really worried, take a small piece and light it on fire. That will tell you what you have for sure.....Fats

I am enjoying the sound of my room soooo much now, I haven't even thought about working on the back wall yet!

It is amazing to go back and listen to some of my older mixes now, and hear how heavy they are in the higher frequencies! Weird! Now that a lot of the lower/mid stuff is being absorbed, the highs are *really* high!

I should be buring a quick CD tonight from the new stuff I have been working on to listen to outside of the studio and see what it sounds like elsewhere...this should be the first real test of the new room!

Thanks again to everyone for their help...I am diggin' life!

Also, Markertek certifies their stuff as flame retardant...

I've been trying to think of a way to make an effective diffuser... How about this

A board with large peices of crumpled of cloth or paper coated in plaster of paris... these would be large "balls" that have alot of nooks and crannies and built up higher and higher to achieve a wider bandwith of diffusion?

Would something like this work?
Marshall

I still think the UPS shipping tubes will work very nicely.

Check THIS out...
http://www.macmidimusic.com/razquaddif.html

That's the stuff.....If anyone wants to know about diffusion, click on that url. Good info......Fats p.s. I wonder how much?....... :tu:

Hey Guise - I'm waiting for a call-back on pricing as I type -

Meanwhile, got the specs in front of me, such as they are - looks like a DIY type of guy with a radial or table saw could make one (also assuming he knows what a dado is) for the price of some glue/paint, a fair amount of time and about 1-1/2 sheets of 3/4" MDF (what the real ones are made of, based on a SWAG, is maybe 5/8", based on a given weight of 60 lbs and approximately 1-1/2 sheets) -

Sooo, if you already had the tools and space and time (sorry, Fats, from your earlier posts you'll just have to pay the price :=)) it looks like this:

parts - about $20
time - depending on expertise, 4 hours (cabinet maker) to 3 days (just got the saw, not sure how to plug it in)(in this case, triple the materials cost, hehehe)

Still waiting for the only sales dud in the place to call back...

Still waiting...

OK, after an hour wait, called again and got this:

Price each, $259, shipping each $25.
West coast may be cheaper shipping if drop-shipped from BC. The salesman promised to call back (right...) with info on drop ship in quantity. MacMidiMusic had only 3 of these in stock (Nashville)

Since a typical project control room would need at least 4, they would probably be shipped on a pallet for better protection (according to their website) and delivery to west coast would be 3-4 days, probably longer and more expensive to other parts of the country.

Out of USA people, sorry - probably better save for a table saw... These things are 60 lbs each and 2 feet by 4 feet by 8 inches without packing. Shipping costs would most likely pay for the table saw and your time... Steve