Hey Cucco,

I'd be interested, its a small (but important) niche and the stuff I learn from pros and practicioners I would like to pass on to others in the teaching profession.
I've found that recording is by far a better teacher than I will ever be.

Phil

I absolutely love listening to minimal mic'd recordings, but I rarely have the oppurtunity to work with those ensembles. As far as recording an entire orchestra, I'd love to do that someday.

-Erik

Count me in! (I'm in the 75-99% group.)

We could talk for days and days, hours upon hours about this genre, but it's not often the most desirable (let alone understood) niche going. (I like it that way, actually. ;-)

My website (finally back up and running) shows a lot of what we do (WestonSound.com) if anyone wants to know more.

While we're on the subject about this niche/genre, in what markets/regions do you record?

And, who does this full time, part time, or just for fun?

I haven't had much experience with orchestralm choral or ensemble recording but I've always appreciated it and listen to it frequently (105.1 is the biggest station here in So. California). You can definitely count me in as well, I've always wondered how they do it.. What it's like to record an entire orchestra. Sounds exciting!

Count me in. I do this as a sideline to my own amateur level playing in the orchestras (I play bass trombone). Getting larger and larger though. Live and act in Stockholm, Sweden.

Gunnar

I recorded 2 chiors that my wife was in and the end results sounded quite good. I would like to learn more about it. At this moment in time I'm very interested in M+S stereo techniques.

Regards

Liam

I forgot to say."count me in" 8-)

Liam

Count me in the 75%-99% category... I'd say it is probably closer to 75%, though, for the big groups. I'd say 99% of my recording is classical in nature and the last percent being jazz, and the occasional film or rock date..

Love to see a forum here for that- I don't come here that often, but I'd be here more if there was a forum for my kind of work.

--Ben

BTW tofu, I am one of the engineers here in SoCal that puts stuff up on 105.1 and 91.5...

Hey there, Ben!

Welcome aboard. Good to see you over here!

I think we're a small bunch indeed, and that's fine w/me. It's a niche within a niche as this point, and this topic/poll has been up for a little while now with few responders. (Oh well....)

I'd like to see some actual discussion going on here, after everyone settles in and says hello. (Any immediate topics/questions come to mind? Anyone?)

My own short-list would included: What platform and what software are folks using for classical and long-form recording/editing/mastering? (Ben, I already KNOW yours.... ;-) I'm wondering if there's an "unofficial" preferred software beyond the usual stuff like PT's, etc. (PC, Samlitude [soon to be Sequoia] here).

Also, after this "poll" has run its course, perhaps we could create an actual page, thread, or sub-forum dedicated to classical and jazz recording in general within RO. Just a thought.

Joe

I am extremely interested in joining such a community. I don't record orchestras - yet - but chamber music, mostly violin and piano (violin is my major instrument; I'm a conservatory student). My budget right now is also quite limited, and I don't have a whole lot of gear, and none of any high standard, but in the future it is something I intend to invest in.

With the exception of this group, I find it very hard to get decent advice on recording classical music in general, microphone positioning, what gear to use for best results, etc, so a classical music online community is in my opinion much needed. You have my full support!

JoeH wrote: Hey there, Ben!

Welcome aboard. Good to see you over here!

8-) Been around here on and off for years... Just don't post much.

My own short-list would included: What platform and what software are folks using for classical and long-form recording/editing/mastering? (Ben, I already KNOW yours.... ;-) I'm wondering if there's an "unofficial" preferred software beyond the usual stuff like PT's, etc. (PC, Samlitude [soon to be Sequoia] here).

Tee hee... Put me down in the Sequoia cheerleading section. :P I started with Sound Forge as that is what I could afford (back in version 3 or 4) and when I worked in a couple studios, I was using Sonic. Soon my workflow in Sound Forge was almost identical to my Sonic workflow. Then Sequoia was announced and my life changed. These days I record directly to Sequoia, but the trip to Sequoia has been paved with a number of formats. I started going to DAT, then CD and Masterlink, then to a DA-78HR... The problems with all of these in the end came to reliability and having to load into the DAW in real time.

Also, after this "poll" has run its course, perhaps we could create an actual page, thread, or sub-forum dedicated to classical and jazz recording in general within RO. Just a thought.

Joe

Sounds good... As those who know me know, I can go on at great length when it comes to classical and jazz recording. :D

--Ben

Your experience is similar to mine, Ben. Nowadays, it's all about workflow and data transfer/storage.

Before DAT, it was VHS or BETA VCRs and Sony F1 converters, and analog 1/4" half track before that. Originally, back in the 80's, we even had a 1" MCI JH-110 8track machine. (Big and heavy!)

I still have a lot of F1 VHS/Beta tapes in the vault, and surprisingly, they still seem to play OK whenever we have to pull something up. (Fortunately, most of the important stuff has been transferred to CD, etc. by now.)

After the F1, we went to DAT for about 10-12 years.

I got away from DAT as soon as CDr's became a reliable & affordable alternative, and about the same time added a DA-78 to my rigs. It was nice to stop having to worry about getting it all perfect in one pass to DAT, but as you mentioned, "Real time" transfers were beginning to get prohibitive. I'd almost have to start transferring to HD the moment we'd get back from a remote. NOT fun. I had to get a second machine in the studio to get around hauling the remote machine back inside to do the transfers. Every gig would involve a CDr "raw" 2-bus, and then DA-78 transfers to HD.

Then of course, there's a final archive to be made of finished projects: Edits, 24 bit mixes, CD backups, etc. usually onto DVDr's.

Nowadays, I usually do everything at remotes onto an external Firewire HD with my laptop/samplitude rig, but I still run the CDr and Tascam DA-38 as a backup. (It'll be a long time till I trust the laptop and firewire rig to be completely bulletproof.) The good part is that afterwards I can just plug the HD into my studio system, and immediately begin working on a project.

Time and data management have become one of my most precious resources, and it really adds up, esp with 2hr concerts on multitrack tapes, sometimes multiple nights or rehearsals too.

At this point, our long term archive plan is now buying HDs almost in quantity. In today's Sunday paper, Best Buy is selling a Western Digital 120 gig HD (internal) for $50 after some rebates. (list at $99 now!!!) That's just insane when you think what a gig USED to cost. ;-)

Instead of pulling my studio computer apart each time, I've bought a $25 self-powered external firewire "Caddy" from CompUSA and have begun saving and cataloging entire projects (usually sorted/stored by client) onto their own HD's. it's really gotten that simple, and while it's anyone's guess what format will survive, I'm hoping that CDr, DA-x8's and Hard drives will be available in one way or another for another decade or so. For $50 per 120 gigs, it's now worth incorporating it into the price of the projects. Hell, it's not much different than paying $120 for a 30 minute roll of Ampex 486 1" tape. BETTER, actually. ;-)

Hey guys, thanks for the excellent results! I actually had a pretty good idea who would be responding to the poll, but I figured I'd put it out there on the chance that more of us are lurking. The great news is that it has been viewed over 200 times! That's a lot of views despite the only 12 replies.

Anywho - Ben and JoeH, thanks for your insight into your techniques and equipment. It's absolutely amazing how far we've all come from just little while ago. I recall the days of my trusty Nakamichi Dragons and 1/2" decks and then the day I finally made the plunge to digital (DAT - I skipped the whole digital on video thing - don't know why, just didn't want to do it. On an interesting side note, I just saw one of the Sony F1s on Ebay the other day. I thought about buying it for the hell of it, but my wife talked me out of it.)

As for your question JoeH concerning platforms/software/etc. Personally, I use a few different systems - DAT, DAT and more DAT. (Usually as back ups, but on those days where I'm stretched really thin doing 3 or 4 recordings at different places at the same time, I'll pull 'em into primary service). Also, PCs running Cubase SX2 and Pyramix (soon to upgrade to the full system w/Mykerinos etc.) and an Alesis HD24 (rock solid, but sh*tty converters). I use conversion from Apogee, Ramsa, and Lucid (until I get my DAD's here in the near future).

I've thought real seriously about switching to Sequoia, but I can't figure out if it will record/edit multi-track DSD/DXD. If anybody here has insight into this one, I'd be in your debt.

Ellegaard: I guess my post title should have included something about chamber stuff and recital work - by all means, you are one of the few, the proud, the orchestral recordists... The moment you attempt to capture a live orchestral instrument as faithfully as possible, I would lump you into the category. In this case, size doesn't matter :lol: .

The fact that 200+ people are looking at this post is a good sign that there are a lot of interested people out there and it might be worth having a section devoted to symphonic/acoustic music.

Thanks all!

Jeremy

Cucco wrote: I've thought real seriously about switching to Sequoia, but I can't figure out if it will record/edit multi-track DSD/DXD. If anybody here has insight into this one, I'd be in your debt.

I'll leave my personal bias against these formats aside for the time being... (a la DSD-wide, aka PCM audio, lack of consumer support, etc...) Sequoia will not work in DSD. Probably never will, either (unless somebody brings a DSD sound card to the market- but considering that no native DAWs work with DSD, that likely ain't gonna happen).

As for DXD, do you mean the 24/384 format? If so, yes, it will work on that- however there is yet to be a converter out there that will do it. Realistically, you're looking at multitrack 24/192 if you have a reasonably powerful machine and a Lynx sound card. Processor and memory will dictate how much you can do at that resolution and more specifically how many tracks you can record at that resolution.

There is support built in, however, for the Phillips DSD authoring tools to export your PCM stream to a DSD master.

As those who know me will attest (when they pick their jaws up off the floor when they see how fast and accurately I can edit, then tweak their audio in the object editor), especially for those that work with Acoustic music, Sequoia does deserve a serious examination.

--Ben

PS, in the interest of being up front, I do work [very] part time for the only approved turnkey provider in the US, although I won't profit from potential sales. Think of me as a somewhat interested cheerleader.

Ben,

Thanks for the information. I have always liked Sequoia's format and have been quite interested in using it as my primary system. My confusion about their support for DSD comes primarily from their website where it states that DSD mastering is a possibility. (However, they conspicuously left out recording and editing.) Believe me, I totally understand your hesitations towards DSD, though 10 million players have been sold world-wide (True, a lot of those were "bundled" players that are thrown in with a DVD player and many don't even realize what SACD/DSD/DXD are.) Also, despite the "out of band" extraneous noise, I truly do enjoy the sound of a well recorded SACD.

As for DXD, I'm intrigued. Mainly because, by all technical specifications, it should be better than DSD. Digital Audio Denmark (DAD) has actually released their Axion converter capable of recording at 24 (32 bit float) 384 kHz. The only problem is, how the heck do you get that into the PC? Until someone like Lynx or RME comes to the rescue, it's either Mykerinos and Pyramix or Sonoma. :cry:

I am very seriously considering being content with 24/192 until we begin transmitting music telepathically and skip this whole "format war."

I would be interested in talking to you or your reseller that you shamelessly promoted :lol: about a Sequoia system. I will be in the market very soon.

Thanks,

Jeremy

Cucco wrote: Ben,

Thanks for the information. I have always liked Sequoia's format and have been quite interested in using it as my primary system. My confusion about their support for DSD comes primarily from their website where it states that DSD mastering is a possibility.

There was much confusion among the users as well- myself included. At one point they were talking about supporting it, but the lack of a card that could handle it was the reason why it never took flight.

Also, despite the "out of band" extraneous noise, I truly do enjoy the sound of a well recorded SACD.

As do I... The SACD's I have heard have impressed me in many ways. As for the sales stats, I doubt that many of the folks buying the discs or players are purchasing because it is DSD. Take the Stones re-release. Touted as a hugely selling SACD. It was a dual-layer disc with red-book CD audio. How many bought it for the SACD layer and how many bought it because it was a Stones remaster?

I am very seriously considering being content with 24/192 until we begin transmitting music telepathically and skip this whole "format war."

Heck, most of my clients can't tell the difference in sound between a 24/96 session and an MP3. Believe me, I'm aware of the format wars and I've made a conscious decission to stay away. Heck, one of the most popular classical guys here in LA just upgraded to 24 bit 44.1KHz. He uses a Mackie 1604 VLZ for his recording. The recordings sound fine and he has a large number of very happy clients. Are we doing this for us or are we doing it for the clients? AND how much are we willing to pay for that- both in grief and dollars. In the end that is the real question.

I would be interested in talking to you or your reseller that you shamelessly promoted :lol: about a Sequoia system. I will be in the market very soon.

Thanks,

Jeremy

It was not my intent to promote the company I work for, but a number of folks from this board stopped by our booth at AES- JoeH being one of them. I just wanted to admit some of my biases. :P I would prefer any questions about this to come off the board...

--Ben

Ben,

Thanks for the quick and thoughtful reply.

Yeah, I agree whole heartedly that the marketing numbers are inflated BS! Case in point: my mom, who has never heard of SACD, DSD, DXD or for that matter doesn't even know who Telarc is (despite the fact that she was once a renowned classical pianist) recently purchased a few SACDs. She doesn't have a player and didn't even notice they were SACDs. She just thought the price had gone up for recordings of the Mormon Tabernacle Choir...

Don't worry, I was just ribbing you about the "shameless promotion." I would never take to insulting people based on stuff they do for a living or their personal preferences. I think it's awesome that musicians are partnering up for this stuff, not just big business owners. It makes me feel a hell of a lot better about supporting the product ! :D Oh, and I will be contacting you regarding a Sequoia system, but I will do it off line.

Thanks,

Jeremy

(P.s. I still keep 3 Mackie 1202 VLZ's in my arsenal for location gigs - there's no telling how many times they've come in handy. Ultimately, you're absolutely right, 99% of our clientele couldn't tell you if they were listening to SACD, CD, MD, or MP3. I just really like to hear smooth, liquid sound - the kind I only get in really high rez... or analog)

I´ll just chime in to the choir. I am an amateur, toddling along and learning on the way. Current equipment is a laptop and either an MBox or a Motu 828mkII depending on how many cases of cables and other stuff I care to carry along. There is a huge difference taking the subway with a two channel setup or a ten channel one.

My choice of application is Samplitude, and, well, the object model fits really well to me when I record and mess up mainly chamber music and symphony orchestra. Most often because I sit in the backline playing the trombone.

Gunnar

Wow; where should we start, eh?

Looks like we're off to a nice start with some good attitudes and pleasant idea swapping. (Let's agree right here and now to ALWAYS keep it this way! :-) Jeremy, your comment about never insulting people on thier personal preferences is VERY refreshing and well taken. (I"m sure we've all seen some nasty things on other boards...) All I want to do is share stories & ideas, comiserate if necessary, and help anyone else who wants to venture in this genre on their own.

My vote would be for a separate sub-forum or topic area. (How can we petition RO to help with this?) I also hope we can include everyone in this new thread; both newcomers and seasoned pros. It's a great field, and those who enjoy this line of work can attest. It's not for everyone (Fortunately) and there's a ton of great things worth discussing. We've just barely scratched the surface with topics, from sample rate, converters and choice of software. (Seems like a lot of Samplitude/Sequoia user here, but we'll try NOT to gang up on the rest....hehehe...)

For whatever it's worth, I got into Samplitude via Red Roaster in the mid-90's. Being a PC person, I needed to find a way to do classical recordings onto CDs without breaking the "live" (with audience & ambience) aspect, longer movements, etc. with 2 second pause times. (Which ALL the others were doing that, but someone suggested Red Roaster. (I think it was a jest/poke at "Toast" for MAC at the time.) In any case, I got it and upgraded all the way up into Sampltidue professional over the years since. I'll be happy to share any praise and tips about Samplitude/Sequoia as things progress, but the main selling point for me was the intelligent, well-thought-out interface that just seems so VERY WELL suited to classical and long-form music. (Theater, operas, jazz concerts, etc.) I know there are those who use it for all kinds of things (even loops, live multitrack/overdub sessions, etc.), it really is flexible. I use it for live location tracking/recordings, editing, mastering, restoration work, and even the occasional movie soundtrack for DVD's, etc.

I'm sure, however, there are many others who have their preference with other apps on other platforms. And this place should be open to all to discuss their favorites, too. WHatever gets you there comfortably, I say!

I'll also confess right here and now that I'm a Mackoid, too; have been for almost ten years now. (Just upgraded to the ONYX 1640 mixer with firewire....more on that as things develop.) I still have a variety of 1202's, 1402's, and 1642's for various uses, and for me, the preamps are just what I need: a straigth wire with gain. No tricks, no filler, just the goods. (I'm NOT into gadgets and gimmics, "PHAT" is something that's done afterwards to a bass track in a pop song....compressors are for filling your tires. ;-) Aside from CDr safety 2 mixes, I go right out of the preamps to the multitrack as most probably do.) I also have access to a really fine API Legacy board in a local NPR studio that's also loaded with UA, Focusrite and other great tools, (including PTs HD) so I get my kicks with those preamps and modules, too.

I've got nothing at all against other more exotic preamps, they've just been a bit out of my reach financially (at least for now). I'm surely open to hearing about how they work for others, and what they recommend when I DO make a purchase someday.

In no particular order, I'd love to see the following topics kicked around, to name but a few:

1. Ensembles - large & small, instrumental & choral
2. Instruments - mic'ing techniques, balancing, (and how to avoid bumping into a violinist carrying a $2.5 million $ Strad!!!)
3. Live recording logistics; load ins, locations, gear choices, media, post-production, CDs, labels, etc.
4. Client relations - getting, keeping and maintaining clients. (to include freebies & extras vs a la carte' pricing.)
5. Mics, cables, stands, and other ephemera essential to the art of "Live Classical Recording."
6. Favorite music/ensembles, (least favorite too!), favorite venues, stories and (names changed to protect the guilty) HORROR stories.

I hope we can have a blend of EVERYTHING, from the nerdy/techie stuff to the 'behind the scenes/between the lines approach one uses every day to work in this genre.

In all humiltiy, I think this is an elite area for people to choose to work in, and as I've said before, it's NOT for everyone. I hope this thread/niche can be a place to chat with those who're already up and running with it, as well as those thinking about getting into it.

Good ideas Joe... Have plenty of stories about good and bad gigs. Some even have pictures.

Jeremy- if you want a liquid sound, all you need are good mics, pres, and converters... There are some golden converters that don't do 96K. Listen to the old Prism and dB Technologies stuff (ie AD122, or AD-2). I cut my high-end chops on a lot of that stuff and it will hold up to anything out there today.

--Ben

Great, great stuff here. As someone who majored in music (classical guitar) but saw the entire recording industry collapsing as I was graduating, I have long said that recording classical music would be my dream job. However, long ago I abandoned my ambitions of working in recording music as a career and have since found my niche working in pro sports TV broadcasting, and I'm in a great sports town for doing that over the long haul. If you've watched any pro sports broadcast on TV, you know that we use compressors for far more than airing up flat tires........

Back to recording - I have invested in a modest recording setup here at home that I typically use to record friends and the occasional referral that I get to haul it out to someone's garage for a few days of recording, all for a small amount of money and food/malted beverage. I do it because I love it. And doing this has made me toy with the idea of recording student recitals and the occasional solo musician (I'm speaking "classical"ly here) and the like in my spare time. So my immediate question(s) comes more from the business end of this than the technical end.

As I stated, I abandoned any notion of eeking out a career in pop recording long ago. This was because of the changes that have happened in the project and mid-level studio markets in the past 10 years. There's just no opportunity there anymore with the DAW/Guitar Center revolution. Being that classical recording is such a niche, have you guys faced the same struggles in dealing with this paradigm shift? Is the classical client base less inclined to go buy a few mic's and some software in order to save the money spent on a good recording? Are you able to independently market your services in university settings for recital recording, or do you find that most universities, as mine did, have their own modest, mobile recording setups and a staff-half-engineer that records recitals at students' requests? I'm curious about a comparison/contrast of the pop and classical recording environments at the project/mid-level. Basically, are the struggles the same?

This is a great idea for a new branch of RO. While I don't do this day in and day out, I will definitely be a lurker, and will contribute when possible. The constructive approach is great, a rare thing. Let's keep it that way.

FifthCircle wrote:
Jeremy- if you want a liquid sound, all you need are good mics, pres, and converters... There are some golden converters that don't do 96K. Listen to the old Prism and dB Technologies stuff (ie AD122, or AD-2). I cut my high-end chops on a lot of that stuff and it will hold up to anything out there today.
--Ben

Ben,
Well, I'll definitely agree with you there. I've used the older db tech stuff and I did like it, but I never liked it near as much as good old analog. And now that I'm hearing such wonderful stuff from Meitner, Euphonix, and the new Prism stuff, I just can't justify going with lower sample rates - they just don't sound the same.

JoeH,
All good topics you bring up here. I'd like to expand on one of yours - how not to bump the violinist carrying the $2.5mil Strad... - I'd like to teach some of those yahoos not to set their violins and their drinks on my work surface, or to watch where they walk so they don't knock over a mic stand holding 3 Schoeps microphones, or for that matter to stop talking during takes - not talking within 5-7 seconds of the completion of a take,etc. (I don't sound frustrated, do I?)

jdsdj98,
Really, at no point have I felt all that threatened by clients going out and buying their own gear to record themselves. There are those that do it - as a matter of fact, some of the larger orchestras in my area have full set-ups which they use all the time to record their concerts. However, the vast majority of them realize that, to get the best sound possible, they are going to have to bring someone in to do the job.

Personally, I don't do the recital recording for most college students around here, for a few reasons.
1. Most of the kids can't pay even modest rates for this
2. The colleges typically have a few microphones and a DAT that they do the job with (and some poor music student does work study to record all the recitals - that was how I got my start in the biz...)
3. I go after the bigger fish - I try to get contracts with the college itself to record all of the ensembles. Yeah, they could still hire the college kid to do it, but usually this stuff is used in recruitment etc. They want the highest quality possible.

J...

Jeremy; I know what you mean about space to put your stuff. I try to get there as early as possible to "stake my claim" in terms of where I'll set up. For regular clients, there's usually a set place and no one's surprised. But I've had my share of last minute violinists running in and dumping their stuff on me, or under my table, next to me, etc., while they dash out to tune up at the last minute. (Busy professional players seem to do this a lot! ;-)

I've made it clear to my helpers, though, that if they do touch anything onstage: all mic stands' joints and screws get checked and double-checked (esp if the gear has been in a cold van overnight, with temp changes, etc.) so that there's no falling stands or dropping booms in the middle of a performance, etc. Gaffer-tape anything that could trip someone, too. I've also told them that in a test of wills or potential collision, the violin or cello player WINS every time. GET OUT OF THE WAY and let 'em pass. The price of a mic vs. a player's damaged 6-figure instrument is not worth hassling over. (I wonder how many people realize that the price of just the BOW (not to mention the instrument itself) can be well over $10-15K? I'm not kidding.....some of them are astronomical, due to the cost of the rare woods involved.)

I was chatting with a clarinettist last week about how her "new" instrument sounded, and she gratefully admitted she didn't need a mortgage to buy it. She went on to say it cost less than most string players' bows. Be it a violin, viola, cello or bass, NEVER put anything near 'em, or do anything dangerous. (No cowboy stuff; NO sudden movements onstage during setup with musicians present, and move gently, slowly. ) I've seen cellists that leave their instruments out onstage on breaks, with the floor peg dug in the stage, and the neck resting on a chair, the body suspended in midair. Scares me to death just being NEAR 'em! (Snap!!!!!)

As for clients and how to get 'em, that's a complicated feat in and of itself, something we could talk about in a dedicated thread. It's a fact of life that people will try to go "on the cheap" and do some things themselves. It happens in every business: It might be a kitchen-sink haircut, or a home-made dress, or cookies for a bake sale, or a little minidisc at their feet with a built in stereo mic. ;-) That's all well and good. Some people can do this stuff fine on their own, some are complete luddites.

I have found though, that at least in Classical music, there is SUCH a heavy burdon on the serious musician to get it right onstage, there is often very little time for anything else. (I'm talking about the really GOOD players, not the jack of all trades wanna-be's.) There's a lot of folks in between, and that's fine if they wanna make their own DATs', or live CDr's of rehearsals, even a DV tape of themselves conducting or soloing. But as Jeremy points out, they WILL pay for a professional to do it right, eventually. (Sometimes you have to painfully sit-out a production or two, watch them trip and fall [losing a terrific moment to incompetance] and then let them come running back to YOU to do it right. Not always, but it does happen, and we must NOT be smug when they bring in a sh*tty recording with a desperate plea to "fix it up as best as you can!!!" heheh.. ;-)

The better-run organizations know how to compartmentalize, and have specific people to do specific tasks, including contracting the players, stage managers, librarian duties, etc. Most people have far too much to do than try to record it all as well. Many are teaching and performing elsewhere, and the rehearsals barely cover the prep time for a concert. (Most are sight-reading the charts at these things, too! It's a lot to process.)

I've found those that try to accomplish too much (running a recorder while running a rehearsal) tend to be not very good at either one. It just looks shabby, and the pro groups don't embarass themselves that way. (It's often a union issue in the larger halls, too.)

Living near or in a larger urban environment helps a lot, simply because that's where the schools, ensembles and concert venues are. Older cities are good too, for the same reasons. I should also point out that nothing happens overnight in the classical business. Most of your clients' organizations may be older than YOU are, and chances are they'll be around long after we're gone. You ALWAYS have to be aware of the big picture in any deal you create.

There's no one sure-fire way to get business, but from my own experience, I'd say the personal approach is best. Cold-calling & slick sales people do not work well in this business. It takes a long time to get established, and it has to come from referrals, proven track records, and making the client comfortable with what you do. Remember, they've been working literally their whole lives on their craft, in a genre within a genre....they are VERY hesitant to try something new, but they'll be loyal as pit bulls if you take good care of them, and let them shine for their peers and overall reputation with a killer CD.

Again, this is probably a whole 'nother thread, but it helps to be a good business person as well as a good eningeer. You will often deal with different levels of people in a bigger organization, from the music director/conductor to the stage manager, to the business manager, to the Advisory board, to the accountant, etc. etc. Gotta learn to speak all the different lingo, of course. You can be hidden away in a broom closet somewhere, but it wont help you line up the next concert or meet a new potential client (a guest soloist, perhaps?) backstage. It never hurts to take some time to schmooze just a little too. Know your clientele, and know what they find necessary for a comfortable working relationship with you. (I'll give you a hint: It's NOT about the sample rate on your DAW. ;-)

Sorry to run on again, the coffee has obviously kicked in. Time to go edit.....there's lots to discuss on this topic, obviously.

8-)

Almost forgot, good reading here:

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/30/arts/music/30gold.html?pagewanted=2&adxnnl=1&oref=login&adxnnlx=1101831041-jknKtxjGGuTPb7kD1zcxvg

(You may have to register to gain access, but it's quick and painless, and it IS the NY Times. They won't spam you. ;-)

JoeH:

Excellent points here -

Everyone, you would do well to listen to his advice. Knowing classical musicians and how they work will help get the gigs. Getting to know gigging musicians will help you get the gigs. One way that I get a few of the "Farm Team" orchestras is by having my musician friends give me referrals. If they get me a gig with an orchestra or ensemble that they are playing with, I give them a finders fee (usually $100). Also, being that I am a classical musician, it's easy to rub elbows with these fellows.

As JoeH points out, these guys are VERY busy. Most instrumental professional players have multiple jobs. (For example, I play professionally, teach horn 3 days a week, run a studio AND work for the government in a forensics/biometrics field - and I know plenty of people that do this AND MORE!)

If you can show good communication skills and stay on top of things, you will get called back.

And as to the last statement JoeH made, it's not the equipment that makes the difference. Though it may give you a warm fuzzy feeling. Last year, I got spread REALLY thin one day. I record all of the high school honor bands/choruses/orchestras and due to reschedulings I had 7 to record in one day - all at different venues and all pretty much at the same time. On two of the gigs, I had to resort to subpar equipment:
1 - a Mackie 1202 vlz pro, two GT AM51 mics, and a Minidisc recorder.
2 - a Mackie 1202, 2 AT 3528s, and a Technics tape deck

Despite the caliber of the equipment, I turned out decent recordings and had 0 complaints (which band parents and band directors are quick to do if they don't like it!)

Thanks JoeH!

J...

Re: Budgets... I've felt a huge pinch by the "home recordist" In the end, most will agree that my services are worth the money, but here in LA, if it isn't film, there ain't no money. I have orchestras that bitch about $350 to record their concert, and then when they do hire, it takes 6 months to get paid.

Heck, I make more money off of student performances at USC than I do off of groups like that. Students are fickle, though... If they can borrow their friend's minidisc and place it in the front row (or even worse, the back row), they'll do that in an instant. I haven't purchased a major piece of gear in about 3 years because of the softness of the market. They, unfortunately, don't realize when they are applying for jobs that those recordings will benefit them.

The other issue I run into (and I have a client coming over in a couple hours to wrestle with this) is rescuing the minidisc recording. The mic isn't in the right place, the MD's compressors kick in whenever it gets too loud or too soft, etc... They end up spending more rescuing the recording than they'd spend doing it right in the first place.

Now, on to Joe's points- instruments.... The things you mention (especially the cello) happen at the highest levels. A couple years back when Yo Yo Ma came to town, I was working the concert. In the rehearsals, he would place his instrument like that. It almost fell on its own once. :o !!!! I'm generally pretty cool about players that need to stash their junk- perhaps it is from too many years of being one of those players myself. BTW, your clarinetist was absolutely correct- I feel quite fortunate only having to own an instrument that costs $4K, although a clarinetist needs 4 or 5 instruments to really be able to work professionally so that investment even adds up.

I've found that here in LA, people are loyal until they find somebody that will do the job for less. Obviously, at the highest levels, there is a certain amount of loyalty as there are contracts that have been in existance for years. Everything below that seems negotiable. Also, Joe's comment about word of mouth is absolutely correct, too... I get 80% of my work because of word of mouth referrals. I've pretty much stopped advertising because all it got me was LA Recording Workshop and Full Sail students looking for internships.

In the end, the one thing I have going for me above just about every engineer in town is the fact that I spent years working and playing along side the people that hire me. I have intimate knowlege about what it is like to be sitting in the ensemble during the performance/session and as a producer or engineer, I try to work with that same attitude/work ethic. Of course, the fact that when the conductor shows me some really complicated score, I can follow what is going on also helps.

--Ben

Jeremy, sure sounds like you're one BUSY guy. It's amazing what you can do when you have to. (My busiest day last year was THREE remotes; I was stretched pretty thin, indeed. When I buy anything new, it's always with an eye towards how I can use it as part of my live remote rigs. )

Getting paid is always the part of the equation that people find painful. (Whether you're writing the checks, or waiting for them.) For years and years, I found the whole process demeaning and embarassing, I just HATED talking tough with people, so I just sat and fumed. Finally I got fed up with being nice and patient, so I simply drew up a clear concise agreement form for new clients to read, sign and keep a copy. They know our terms, and they really do try to get me paid within a reasonable amount of time. (That still doesn't stop some clients from crying poor-mouth. One of them recently took 10 months to pay off a $1600 balance, $400 at a time.) I also have a rate sheet with several options that I now give out, instead of explaining the same thing over and over again on the phone to people who are just kicking the tires. Helps to be clear and concise up front, so there's no hard feelings later.

I know what Ben means about students - a lot of them, anyway. Many are just simply oblivious, have no working $$ (unless it's from their parents) and are simply just in a hurry to step over everyone on their way up. (The exuberance of youth!). For a while, I was really overdoing it with a few prodigy's out of Curtis Institute and a few others locally, "giving away the store," figuring they'd be clients for a long time to come. (Not necessarily so!) One of them was the hottest 14 yr old flutist to hit the scene at the time, and her parents were all over me to cut her a break on a demo, give out pointers, tips, etc. Once she got recognized and drew some major venue (and label) attention, they forgot all about those who helped on the way up. GONE GONE GONE. For one of her last local recitals, they cancelled a recording on me, saying the record label didn't feel it was necessary; they'd take it from there. No problem, I saw it coming & expected it at that point. It happens. (Heaven forbid they go to bat for you with the record label and INSIST on using the person who knows them best! ) I"m not bitter, it's typical sometimes, of how people view their hometown roots.

But that's a bit rare; most clients - at least 50% - are loyal and come back whenever they have the funds to record.

Nowadays, I take a professional, polite approach to all, and see who's in it for the long haul. They're free to do what they want, of course. My helper and I were just discussing this the other day: Seems like there's two kinds of musicial people out there: Those who really don't care (or will do the recordings themselves) or those who are wise enough to make your aquiantance, get to know how you work and what you can do for them long-term. (Dream clients, I guess you'd call 'em. ;-) You can usually tell within 5-10 minutes of meeting them which type they are.

I'm always clear with new and growing clients that our goal is long-term growth...TOGETHER. I cut deals and throw in extras when I can, but I also (nicely) let them know I'm doing it. (It's one of those little things to keep 'em choosing YOU and coming back for more.) As Jeremy mentioned, the parents of a lot of these groups are just WAITING to do it themselves and cut you out (with a camcorder mic or minidisc in the front row or worse). Always gotta be one step ahead, if you can.

We don't have much film work here (and of course all the serious scoring gets done in LA or NYC), but we do have a flourishing arts community (in spite of NEA cuts and the Bush admin in general). The major source of funding (regardless of ticket sales) is Grants. Most of my clients are registered as non-profits, so their bottom line is always a moving target. (When they run out of $$, they go begging, stage fund-raisers, write grant proposals, etc.)

It may sound cold-blooded, but the smart approach is to avoid the starving artists, the time-wasters, the users, etc. and seek out those with good funding and visions for the future. Grants are a self-regenerating cycle: They need a good recording to get a grant, and then they need to record the next event to justify that same grant, and apply anew for the next. In many cases, they also use the CDs for local broadcasts or fundraiser sales. (Often getting around the liscensing fees by "giving" them as premiums to donors and contributors.) Composers in residence work the same way, too; very often they work in the cost of the recording into their grant proposals; a good recording has become as vital as the printed score.

Safety in numbers works well, too.... 50-100 member choral groups will pony up a minimum number of copies to self-fund a CD recording for their events. These are smarter-than-average people who sing one or two nights a week for the JOY and enrichement of it, and have a little disposable income to buy a $15 CD after their concerts. (More dream clients!)

As you might have guessed, none of us are doing this for huge finanical rewards (or god-forbid: FAME), it's just a great way to make a living doing what we love to do, with some pretty cool toys.

Hey All,

Some great stuff that I haven't seen discussed here at RO in any detail. (At least not since I've been around) I would go into detail on my stuff and background, but I'm in the middle of Holiday season as a choral director and also trying to get our annual Cd out into the public's hands by next week. (can you say NO- Doz)

I'll drop a note in the mod's forum about your request to see if there's an interest.

Wow! much interest here. hmm... should we create a forum for you folks and see what happens? What would it be called? Who would moderate it? Is it sort of like our Live Sound forum. http://recording.org/forum-32.html
Maybe merge the two?
Thoughts? (y)

Classical techniques? Acoustic music recording? Umm... How wide or narrow of a net do you want to cast? If it is limited to classical, it will be pretty low-traffic, I think, but nice to have.

What do the folks here think if it were to cover acoustic music in general- covering classical, jazz, world/folk, etc? A number of us that work in classical also cover some of the peripheral musical forms that are related...

--Ben

<< Wow! much interest here. hmm... should we create a forum for you folks and see what happens? What would it be called? Who would moderate it? Is it sort of like our Live Sound forum. http://recording.org/forum-32.html
Maybe merge the two?>>

I don't see all that much of a connection, at least not in technical terms. (Believe me, I've done both, and while I don't hold any grudges or take any negative views of the profession of "live sound", it's a completely different animal.) From what I've seen of it, the "live sound" forum is all about speakers, cables, amps, mics, processors, and the art of sound reinforcement itself: big and small venues, amplified and generally LOUD - Just about the complete antithesis of recording classical, acoustic jazz, choral, chamber music, etc.

I don't think we'd have too much in common except where we'd meet on a stage with a splitter, one capturing it live for a recording and one amplifying it for the house.

Just curious, but what does being a moderator involve?

As for how wide or narrow a net we should cast, I guess that will take on a life of its own should we start a separate forum area. Who and what gets posted may indeed vary wildly. (It would be nice to also see some response from folks who do bluegrass, folk-based stuff, and other non-electrified music. There's theater too, as well as opera, choral music, recitals and chamber groups as others have mentioned.)

Right now, it's just a small handful of us posting on one thread, so maybe we need to wait and see. Frankly, though, I find it very refreshing to meet and chat with other folks into the same thing, going through the same issues and situations as I am. Nice to find some comraderie, for sure!

Perhps the toughest part would be what to call it...."Classical, Jazz and Acoustic Music Recording" ? "Serious Music Recording" ? Natural Recording? (That sounds too much like a nudist resort, I guess! ;-)

Well regardless, , it's surely an idea who's time is due, IMHO.

This is a great idea!

I'm currently getting my new setup together, but my immediate interest is in recording the choir, so they'll sing my stuff (that's the plan anyhow!). The paid gigs don't bring in that much money, but I'm not really bothered about that yet. Once I get those Schoeps (or Audix 1290o -thanks for the recommendation Jeremy!), there not coming out of the box unless the money is decent!

What amazes me is the diversity in the equipment people use. I once sang on a choral recording session where a Neumann Dummy head was plugged into a tiny cheap Mackie desk and out to DAT. An unusual distribtuion of resources?

Really looking forward to this new forum!

Great idea Jeremy!

John Stafford

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But you make a great point; it's pretty amazing how many ways people can find to make classical recordings. Not all of them work as well, of course! ;-)

JoeH wrote:
Crown makes a similar device (I forget the model #; it's 2 spaced PZM's on a big chunk of plastic that you stick on a pole....unfortunately, it's ugly visually and sounds harsh, brittle and edgy, IMHO.

That would be the dreaded SASS-P. What a nasty mic- sounds as bad as it looks. Boundary micing can be good, but just not Crown (rather Schoeps instead... :) ). Speaking of such things, I made an interesting discovery by accident one day- a B&K 4006 on the ground of a reflective stage makes a great boundary mic. I was switching mics on a stand comparing which I liked more as a cello spot. I put the B&K on the ground but forgot to change the patch at the console. Sounded stunning.

It's a good example of a client bringing me a "bad" digital (cold) recording, and asking me to clean (warm) it up. (Our solution, (hey Jeremy!) was to send it out to 1/2" analog tape and reroute it back in. Hehehe.)

No need for that analog "stuff" In version 8 of Samp or Sequoia, just use the new analog suite of plugins... :P :roll: :lol:

--Ben

FifthCircle wrote:
That would be the dreaded SASS-P. What a nasty mic- sounds as bad as it looks. Boundary micing can be good, but just not Crown (rather Schoeps instead... :) ).

yeah, it's hideous, isn't it? (I was just being kind! Haha) We a/b 'd it against some other things once in a Mic shoot-out with AT's & DPAs. it was really sad. My client dumped it as soon as he heard the proof. (He was on a limited budget and bought some AT-3035's instead, which sounded much better right out of the gate.) Oh yeah, this was/is another example of clients trying to "do it themselves" and coming back to me with the mess to clean up. It's a college choir on a limited budget, but the director is usually overworked anyway, and aside from taping his own rehearsals, he always makes sure we're hired to record the important stuff.

Speaking of such things, I made an interesting discovery by accident one day- a B&K 4006 on the ground of a reflective stage makes a great boundary mic. I was switching mics on a stand comparing which I liked more as a cello spot. I put the B&K on the ground but forgot to change the patch at the console. Sounded stunning.

I've done some dumb things by accident with those B&Ks, too....they NEVER sound bad. Hehehe. One time, a stand holding a pair "drooped" almost to floor (In slow motion, they tell me) and we recorded the entire work with a pair of omni's, on stage, 1' from the floor, in front of the reeds. Damn things didn't sound bad a all! ;-)

No need for that analog "stuff" In version 8 of Samp or Sequoia, just use the new analog suite of plugins... :P :roll: :lol:
--Ben

Yes, well, I'm WAITING! And waiting! and waiting!!!! :roll:

Can't wait for v8 [Samplitude]. I got v7.23 installed just for something to do while we wait.

I am a piano player/composer/arranger by profession but am learning more about recording all the time. I work mostly with chamber music and other acoustic genres.

I think a forum including onsite as well as studio recording of acoustic instruments would be of huge benefit and interest.

Thanks for bringing it up, guys!

Bruce P.

Damn, this thread gets more interesting every day!

As for the new Forum - it might be a good idea. I originally posted the question just to see if there was interest. Based on the number of views, I'm guessing that there is. However, there have only been a few vocal participants - JoeH, John Stafford, Ben Maas, Phil and myself. Not to discount others who have posted, but these just seem to be the most vocal. That either means that these guys would be the only ones actively posting in this forum OR they would be the pool from which you would pick your moderator(s). Personally, I would think that it would be more of the second one than the first.

Of course, I would firmly agree with JoeH that if a forum were created for this niche, it shouldn't be combined with live sound. Perhaps it could be called "Symphonic and Acoustic..."

Now, on to my thoughts on the previous posts: Yeah, the crown dummy is awful - but personally, I think most binaural stuff is awful. Sure, it has it's place in some situations, but I'm opinionated and that's my opinion. Also, I hate crown's boundary layer mics. I know a lot of people who use these in pianos, but truthfully, I just don't dig the sound. The Schoeps BL mic is far better, but even still, I just prefer a good spaced pair or XY for piano. I've never tried laying an omni on the stage to get a suedo-BL mic. I'll have to give that a try!

JoeH - yep, I am a proponent of DAT, but truthfully, I much prefer it as a back up device. From time to time, I will call them into primary service, but more and more lately, I find myself going to a multi mic setup. I'd hate to say it, but I'm finding that the DATs are going more and more to my budget mobile rigs - especially now that HD recording is so much cheaper. Also, yeah I dig going into analog for a lot of things. I find it to be the best SRC process available. What I usually do is come out of the pc in analog to a parametric EQ and then back into the box via 24 bit/44.1 as the final stage. (I do all internal processing at the higher rates when possible) Then, of course, I dither to 16 bit and keep both files for master records. Truthfully, it's been a long time since I went back to tape, but I wouldn't hesitate to do it if I thought it would benefit the recording.

Ben:
I'm anxious to work with you and your guys at SD. The more I hear about Sequoia versus Pyramix, the more excited I get. I don't think it would be considered sales if you go into a little more detail about the analog plug-ins. Please, do tell... (especially share if they are included for FREEEEEEEEE)

All:

I'm going to start another thread later today concerning a recent horror that I've had with one of my regular clients. I'm sure you will all get a kick out of it and have your own horror stories to boot.

Thanks!

Jeremy

I keep a pair of crown PZM mics in each of my rigs 'just in case" and fortunately I rarely have to use them anymore. I usually forget I've got them. Every once in a while, though, I'll get a situation where they've GOT to close the lid or something, or the piano is just in the wrong spot to put a mic under the lid (or 1/4 stick, what-have-you). About 20 years ago (in my wild youth! ) I thought they were good for getting good hot piano levels through a PA and a loud band. I still feel that way (in a pinch) but I really hate 'em for serious classical piano recording. (NEVER NEVER NEVER, please don't make me do it!) The last time I used 'em for a serious piano recording, I was fortunate that the piano was centerstage under my main omni's and so all I really needed was a little sparkle/touchup from the PZM's. Otherwise, fuggetaboutit!!!! Too pingy, thin and poppy-sounding for me. (I want the DPA 3521 stereo mic kit! Waaaa!)

(Here's a thread topic all on its own, sure to invite many responses: How do YOU mic a piano, and under what circumstances/ensembles? Choise of mic's? Location? Pickup pattern? That's one we could talk to death, too. ;-)

You mentioned Pyramix, Jeremy, and that's got me curious. The folks at Algorithmix make their sonic Laundry package, and they say it works with BOTH Samplitude/Sequoia and Pyramix. I'm waiting to add "reNOVAtor" to my upgrade to Sequoia, if and when it ever comes out. (Sigh) Algorithmix says they make a stand-alone version of the whole suite of noise reduction tools, but (gad) the prices is almost the same (if not more?) than the upgrade to Sequoia, so it's hardly worth it. (And it's still vaporware, from what I've heard - or not heard - so far.)

reNOVAtor seems like a very exciting and kick-ass tool for restoration and noise removal work. I had Jeff (at Sequoia Digital) perform some emergency "noise-removal" surgery for me a few weeks ago. (We FTP'd the before & after files back and forth, and the results were nothing short of amazing. Client was blown away with what we removed from the first 2 measures of a critical piece that had no alternate takes.)

Ben might be able to explain it better than I can, but it's not the traditional cute & Paste "Slight of hand" editing that we all use for noise reduction. It's something like "Photoshop for Audio" as someone (Ben?) explained to me at AES. You really have to see (hear) it in action. It's nothing short of amazing. I can't explain (yet) how it works, but it's stunning.

It's SO good, I plan to launch a bit of an advertising campaign here once I DO get it, and sell the idea to clients that finally, YES, we CAN remove most coughs, sneezes, squeeks and other contaminants that were impossible to remove before. There are a LOT of heartbroken clients out there with semi-perfect takes that would love to remove a chair-squeek here, or a cough there. Up until now, my questions were always: "Is there a repeated phrase somewhere, or an alternate take?" As anyone who edits digitally, if you don't have something to copy/paste in, you're S.O.L. in most cases. reNOVAtor is now taking us beyond that with some pretty jaw-dropping tricks.

(looking forward to your horror story, Jeremy. I've got a few, too...."the names have been changed to protect the GUILTY, " however.... )

Whoa... A number of things to reply to here...

The Analog Suite of plugins is free with Version 8 of Samplitude and Sequoia. It includes 2 plugins- a transient modulator, and a compressor/tape sat plugin. The comp runs in a "VCA" and "Opto" mode.

If you aren't familliar with it, one of the main cool things about Samp and Sequoia is the ability to work at the "object" level. Means that you can non-destructively work with an entire channel strip anywhere on any piece of audio. Actually it is more than a channel strip because there is also pitch shifting and time stretching as well. The new pitch shifting is done through a new process they call "Elastic Audio" which is basically pitch automation- either manual or automatic. This is a wonderful thing when you are editing music where pitch tends to slide over time.

Getting into some of Joes comments- the object editor is a miracle for audio restoration. What it means is that you can plugin automate restoration processes and have them come in very slightly or hard over a specified period of time. It really opens up a whole new set of power. The new plugins by Algorithmix are indeed amazing. ReNOVAtor is just one of the amazing plugs, but it is pretty stunning.

The best way to describe it is that it is like photoshop for sound. You see a spectral view of the audio, you draw a box around the part of the sound that is undesirable, tell it how to interpolate and hit process. The sound then disappears and the surrounding material is untouched. Pedal noise, coughs, squeaky chairs, guitar finger squeaks all become a thing of the past with this plugin.

Algorithmix Sound Laundry is definitely a different product than the stuff available for Sequoia these days. They have also licensed some of their stuff to Pyramix as well. The stand alone plugs are still quite a ways out (considering it took a year to get these plugs out from when they were released, I don't see it happening any time soon). The Linear Phase EQ of theirs is one of the clearest, sweetest digital EQ's I've ever heard. I haven't shot it out against Weiss, but everything else I've shot against, the Algorithmix has won...

re: piano micing- definitely a new thread- I could go on at great length here as well... Those DPA piano mics did look pretty cool. I think we could do threads on all sorts of instruments/ensembles if a forum actually happens.

On a different note, just found out last night I'm recording the Britten War Requiem in a couple months... Woo Hoo. Chorus, children's choir, 3 soloists, organ and LARGE orchestra. Should be a blast. :)

--Ben

Yep; we have a variety of topics I've not seen addresses anywhere else:

1. Piano & soloists mic'ing - what mics, under what circumstances.
2. Gear choices - for remotes vs. in-studio (I think most of us do remotes vs. in-studio, but I'm sure it varies for each of us.)
3. Ensembles & venues. Got a favorite group or hall, or both?
4. Upcoming gigs....advice or bragging....what's on your schedules and how do you intend to tackle some of the odd and unusual things we all run into? (bad venues, instruments like pipe organs, choral shells, antiphonal choirs, etc. etc.)
5. Hardware - cases, cables, roll-carts, and other "must have" items for the gigs. (What's in YOUR roadcase?)
6. Favorite music to record. Least favorite music, etc.
7. Client management. We've touched on this a bit already, but it's as deep as it is wide. There are all kinds...how do YOU interface with people? Got any tips?
8. Horror stories. (yeah, I love this stuff. Heheh....Jeremy mentioned something coming soon...I"m all ears.) Want to dish the dirt on a few diva's or prima donnas? Difficult soloists? Equipment failures at the worst moments? Train wrecks can be fun...if they happen to someone ELSE, that is. Hate to see good people suffer (esp onstage) but sometimes there IS poetic justice and sooner or later everyone gets their due. (Even US!)

Getting back to Samlitude/Sequoia for a moment. We could possibly have a thread on this (and other) software away from the Magix site, if only to discuss how it works within our own niche. (There are also things we should and should NOT discuss over there, I've found the MAGIX/Samplitude forum tends to be more nuts and bolts anyway....why doesn't it do THIS, when are they going to change THAT, etc. etc. Lots of classical music recordists use Samp/Seq for sure, but I think they're too busy or just not interested in posting there among the deadly serious tweakers.)

Well, the holidays are fast approaching, and I'm sure we're all hearing Christmas music ad infinitum on the radio, tv, in stores, etc. I've had a few client Christmas CDs just come out, and fortunately they were a bit more than just the same old slop we hear over and over again. One isn't Christmas music at all, it's just timed to be a good gift idea, while the other is some good choral Christmastide stuff. "Silent Night" being the only old chestnut on it. So, while it can drive ya crazy if you let it, Christmas music tends to start seeping in from August onward in this biz, esp if the client wants to make it in time for a Thanksgiving release date.

That said, I'm sure everyone here is about to embark on a lot of seasonal performances - you may be IN them or recording them. I've got three weekends of some-good, some-odd stuff happening...how bout you? What's ahead for you over the next three weeks? Anyone?