converters in your delta might be crummy, but the 2D sound you're hearing is probably coming from the even crummier mic pres. Unless you've never recorded with a decent pre into it, you can't really tell whats causing the crappy sound. I would say get the nicer pre even if it doesn't have digital out, because at some point you'll upgrade to a better interface, and then you'll still have a nice pre. You will probably get a better sound with a nice pre and crappy conversion than a crappy pre with nice conversion. Thats just me though, i'd be interested to see what others say.

My first choice is - computer first! It is(Now) computer-based everything, after all... So, assuming the computer itself is up to snuff, and the recording space itself is well-controlled - sound-wise, the very next thing is the interface(The sound card)... EVERYTHING else is supplemental to and dependent on the interface. Worst part of a fine sound card is that we spend all that money and we can't even show it off to anyone! Oh well, we'll just hope they, too can hear the difference(Or buy one of those clear plastic computer cases!)...

For now, I would not go with simply, say, 2 1000 dollar mic pre's, to plug into the delta. Sounds like more than a bit of a waste... Plus the fact that any 1000 dollar mic pre should probably have mics worth much more than that to show THEM off at their best!

Still, with 2k, one should be able to find a considerably better computer interface and still get a couple of pretty nice pre's? Lot's of ways to go.

My vote would be something in the Lynx line to suit, along with any number of pre's in the 200 to 300 dollar per channel range. Presonus MP20's, for instance(Even less cost per channel when you get, say, a 4 or 8 channel unit.). Lots to chose from, any of which should be a great improvement.

Could go with an all-in-one interface/pre unit? I like to keep things seperate, but with a 2000 dollar budget, one could find something pretty darned nice in a MOTU.

Could even go with a Lynx(Or an RME, whatever works for you) and a excellent small mixer, with built-in pre's? A&H, Mackie, Soundcraft. A analog(Or digital) mixer, itself, is still a pretty handy thing to have around and despite word to the contrary, mixers can have very good pre's...

TG

I have to disagree strongly, no offence intended Teddy. I just don't agree with you on this one.

I would say that good pres absolutley come before good converters ... What's the point of even the best conversion if you're feeding it garbage ... GI / GO .... or cart before the horse.

Think about a Sebatron VMP 4000e.

This from well known Nashville Producer Monty Powell ....... he bought a vmp-4000e three years ago .....

"Sebatron,
Hey....thought I would check in, been so busy the last couple of years it's crazy... You should know that I have been spreading the Sebatron gospel around Nashville as much as I can... Just FYI, in the last year artists with a combined total of around 13 million albums sold have all recorded thru my quad that you guys sent me... That includes Keith Urban, Rascal Flatts, Chris Cagle, James Otto, Shannon Brown, Anna Wilson and other major label artists...

The pre's still sound great and everyone is impressed when they hear them. I have lent them out a few times to other producers as well. I am building a new room, a tracking facility that will see even more traffic and might want to get some more stuff.......hope all is well...gonna browse the web site now and see what other goodies you have been churning out recenty......peace....."

Monty Powell

In my expierence, a good mic pre can even make the cheaper mics sound better ... There's nothing that affects the sound more IMO than the pres.

The word is getting out finally on Sebatron ...

Teddey, I said I don't plan on changing my interface at this time, It's 6 ins/4 bus configuration provides me all the in/out/routing that I need at this point in time, also with the 2 digital ins if I use good outboard converter I don't see what difference the interface would make. I've used this thing for about 4 years or so now and It is rock solid, I have no problems with crappy drivers or system crashing. Also, regarding your comments on mics, the mic in my collection I'm most proud of is my K2 and this mic would bennefit greatly from a high end pre (as would my 57's). And I have to wonder what's the point of using a $200-300 pre with an interface like the Lynx? I would assume Pre's in that range are probably built the same way the onboard pre's in my interface are built, and probably wouldn't sound much better? Am I wrong on this?

What I'm looking for, really, is recommendations on which would be the best way to go to get the 4 pre's I need and the 2 channels of conversion w/ s/pdif interface. I would like to get a couple different flavors, if possible, under my budget of around $2000

Hey imagineaudio:

With $2k, you have a few options. I would tend to agree with Kurt and lean you towards the Sebatron. However, I would also recommend that you DO change your interface. True, crap in=crap out. However, another analogy is - fine colombian coffee through filter soaked in crap is gonna taste pretty damn bad.

So - pick up the Sebatron (a very versatile machine - capable of delivering numerous different sounds) and pick up something like an RME card with analog inputs.

You may even want something like the Focusrite ISA428 with the digital option board. You wouldn't have enough to upgrade the interface (I know, I know, you don't want to - but maybe you ought to consider it...).

There are numerous options out there in which you don't have to sell your soul to the Chinese products such as ART.

J.

hmm...I also see the digital option for this ISA428 is about 5-600$.....

Yeah, but the preamp itself can be had for around $1400. This is the amount of your budget, right?

I personally think that the Sebatron and the RME would be the better choice anyway.

J.

this is a tough topic. we must remember that building our studios will always be a work in progress, especially for some of us on the lower end of the scale.

but there is the "weakest link" theory.

great pre's with crappy converters=crap
crappy pre's with great converters=crap

oh don't forget the "good mic" "bad mic" factor.

really, you gotta change both if you want to compete, cuz there's no such thing as a magic button.

but if i had only one choice right here, right now to make, i'd say...............

DRUM ROLL (what mic would you use for this drum roll)
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Cucco wrote: fine colombian coffee through filter soaked in crap is gonna taste pretty damn bad.

start from the ground up. get good converters!!!!!

okay to me it is mutch like this, an old beat up 4track casset deck is goin to sound great with a nice preamp/mic/room however a 2inch 30ips reel to reel is going to sound horable with a starved plate pre and a mxl mic in the untreated hall way.

the converters are not horoble, infact they are just fine, think of it like taking a picture, a great picture can be taken with a disposable camera just like a 1000 dollar cannon. well so long as the picture is a good picture to begin with, and the person who is framing the picture knows how to frame a picture.

its not the weakest link, its what improvment with have the most noticable effect. inthis case if they are to buy say a rossetta goin in through FW card they are still taking a picture of crap. if they change what there are taking a picture of then even with a toy camera it will look gold.

get the better pre, you will (dare i say) not even notice the converters.

Now you did it. NOW you did it!

I went and had a look-see at a few of the things we're talking about(Got that Sweetwater catalog in the mail just the other day, ya'know. Cat had peed on it - a damned Full Compass fan... but still readable past page 19.).

Now that I've "read-up", I'm standing by my remarks. I'm just going to harden them a bit.

Delta 1010. "Semi-pro". Not worth spending big money on at any point in any chain it's in. I take back my Presonus MP20 suggestion(250 per channel) as I fear they would be "too much pre" for this interface. For the 8 TRS 1010 inputs, you'd end up spending 2000 dollars for the 8 pre's to fill the jacks. WAY over the line for this 200 dollar card with it's 200 dollar aluminum box... Am I the only one to shudder at the thought of spending a grand or more, per channel for "real" outboard converters to feed any sort of digital anything into this toy? Oh, that's right, it only handles SP/DIF... Who would bother to even make good outboard converters for that?

Lynx. Sky's the limit in how you surround it - it'll hold up 'til you get WAY up in the stratosphere - and it only costs half your budget. I'm told similar good things can be said of RME - BUT and still, when I looked at them(Some time ago), even RME, just didn't have "it" all - mainly too many compromises to the "semi-pro" market - too many 1/4" jacks, etc. Lynx(Even LynxOne), had it all - all pro - balanced XLR, AES/EBU, sync, etc. and STILL gave you SP/DIF and midi, if you absolutely needed it, to interface with your kids games or something? Midi was eliminated in later Lynx models as being a waste and buyers do complain about the still-included(Lots of us must have kids?) SP/DIF.

Sebatron. No idea. Didn't look. As stated above, if it's "high class", it ain't for the 1010. And, I, for whatever reason(s) when I read about it(I forget and no longer care.) have already passed on it for myself, in favor of a John Hardy, a Pendulum or a Doug Fern and I'm just sticking with(And making money with) my Mackies 'til then(I'll get by.).

BTW: Sorry Kurt, I've never heard of the producer you reference, nor any of the people in bold lettering... I'm sure they're wonderful, of course. I will dig into my Mix magazine library and "bone-up"(Oh crap, I threw 'em all away a few weeks ago. I'm sure I can find the "Entertainment Tonight" sight on-line and... nah.)...

You MUST build a SYSTEM! Made up of parts that FIT! The easiest way is to start at the beginning. If you start at the middle, you'll never have ANY IDEA where to go next - the beginning, or the end - or STILL the middle? Do your best to make no part better or worse than any other part.

I feel another ludicrous analogy coming on - Even if you pay 10,000 dollars for ONE TIRE for your car..? At the very least wouldn't your other "plain" tires feelings be hurt?

That's it.

TG

....I'm not changing my interface at this time....

This seems like an unnecessary argument to me.

Having both good converters and a good pre makes for the best front end. Noone will argue that, right? That having been said, the question is "upgrading which one makes the most noticeable difference?"

I will agree with Kurt that IMO, upgrading pre's makes a bigger difference. But upgrading both converters and pres makes an even bigger difference.

I like my front end right now. I have a sytek mpx-4aii feeding a lynx l22. By this time next week, i should have an isa 428 feeding my ls-aes expansion card.

I agree with teddy about the lynx. I love my lynx. This was a noticeable difference over my presonus firestation.

You can get a lynx 2 with 6 analog ins for $1200. I know kurt has some alternate recommendations to the sytek that would give you more than 4 channels. Offhand, I cannot remember what they are right now.

But this would get you in the door with a good front end. You can continue to upgrade pres as you go, for variation. But this would be a good start. And under $2000!

How do ya like that!

-eric.

...just to add to the above post...

I am not charging for my services at this time........I do not use the 1010 but I do believe the same converters are involved. I have a good friend of mine who does charge for his services and uses 2 1010's for 16 ins. He uses an old 24ch alan/heath board for the pre's and gets much better results than I do. I don't think his console sounds "great", but i'm sure those pre's sound better than what I've been using, so I think I'm going to have to side with Kurt and frob....and thats what im looking for help with.

Eric, that sounds like a good option....I'll be looking into that.

Maybe i just need a better paying job......

This has gotten rediculous. I would take a nice pre over a nice converter any day. Obviously both would be an ideal solution, but pre's have a far more profound effect on sound than converters. I have an old VS880 hanging around... and i dunno what kind of converters it has but they're old and 16bit....., but a good pre as a front end for it still sounds like a good pre. However another local tech around here has RME, and he uses behringer preamps, and it sounds like ass. This is looking at audio backwards to me.....i might be wrong, but for me you start with your source in your room.....thats the number one factor in the sound... next is your microphone used to pick it up, next is the preamp and any outboard gear, and finally it is converted to digital. Converters before pre's to me is like saying that upgrading your pro-tools rig is more important than acoustically treating your tracking room that sounds like a basketball court.....theres an order to these things.....

Kswiss wrote: This has gotten rediculous. I would take a nice pre over a nice converter any day..........

Amen to the brother!

Kswiss wrote: I have an old VS880 hanging around... and i dunno what kind of converters it has but they're old and 16bit..........

Actually I think you'll find they are 18bit, and they actually aren't too bad.

hey imagineaudio,

does your friend frequent these boards often? how about the recording website forums? there's a guy on there with that exact setup under the username Theodore. Used to go by fiend on there.

Anyway just in case that is who you're referring to, he also uses a grace 101, which is a nice step up from the pres on the a&h board. He might be doing most of his overdubs on that pre instead of the a&h board. Just a thought.

I also found the pres that were compared to syteks. The studio projects SP-828. 8 channels at around $600.00. The specs on the sytek are a bit better, but if you can, try and test one of each. That would be the only way to know for sure. Maybe you won't like either! :lol:

-eric.

Great Mic pre and other outboard over great converters anyday and everyday. Plain and simple. I've recorded and heard other recordings that are near mind blowing status done with modest ADAT converters. If I had too, I could live with that level of converter quality for a very long time to come.

You guys miss the whole reason for great converters. All the hype on having to have the greatest converters does more harm than good for many. Great converters reveal more detail. And if that detail is based on what most people use/have that is crap or half assed mic and mic pre, and a poor to crap sounding recording environment, crap monitoring environment, crap plugs, crap sounding instuments, ect... all you really gain is showing more detail of all your crap...
.

Check out the Focusrite TwinTrak Pro. It is two channel with compressor and eq and has a digital card option with SPDIF out. Through the SPDIF you won't be getting any influence from your interface (good or bad).

I want to make sure I wasn't misunderstood. (Since the post immediately following mine made it kinda seem that way...)

I agree - the pre is the more important part of the chain. However, the converter shouldn't be forsaken. It is the last link in the signal chain and no matter how good everything is up to that point, a heavily jittered signal or one with a lot of smearing will cause serious damage to high frequency content in your music.

All that said - get your front end in line first. If you have the option of upgrading both at the same time - go for it. If not, focus on the pre first, then go for the converters.

Most built-in converters in gear nowadays will do just fine for all but the highest-end of audio. (One notable exception - I can't stand the converters in the Alesis HD24 44/48 version - listening to recordings on this make my teeth hurt.)

J.

eric, I don't think this is the same guy.
cucco, I don't think your post was misunderstood.

Just for the record I understand the purpose of converters and the importance of the entire signal chain, from room to player to instrument to mic, and so on.....

The TwinTrack seems like an OK option to me, but being focusrite's budget line, would I get the same performance from, say, the Aphex 207D.....2ch w/ digital out? I understand that most pre's under 5-600$ are built pretty much the same way...?

Done what I could up to and including being a horrid bully(You should have seen the rabid responses when I said, on an old forum, that my Sound Blaster was good enough - no need to spend more on a sound card...).

Still and alright, the 1010(it's fine, for what it is.), stays.

You just CAN'T buy converters(At 500+ per channel), THEN 2 more channels of good pre, for the SP/DIF inputs - because you cannot justify the price due to the low interface price/capability and quality. I guess you can use the TRS in's(God I hate to even acknowledge that! But, you certainly can.), so the most you can have is 4 channels of analog pre - for now - until you upgrade your interface.

So, the only suggestions anyone can give, if you must spend all 2 grand on pre's, is what pre's at 500 bucks per channel? Please, suggesters, keep in mind that the whole damned soundcard(Converters, break-out box and all) only cost $75 dollars per channel and he'll only be able to use 300 bucks worth. For myself, I cannot, in any sort of conscience(Good or otherwise) make any recommendations at all... Wait! Yes, I can!(Sweetwater to the rescue! Always finding new ways to spend anyone's money - God bless 'em, every one!)

The M-Audio Octane! 8 channels, 600 bucks. If the 1010 is good enough, so is this preamp - and with this card it really is good enough! Or, blow a grand on the Mackie Onyx 800R(Down, Kurt!! Down, boy!!!). Both may, somehow, be able to use the XLR's, the TRS's and the SP/DIF's at once??? Then, you'll have a grand left over, that along with 200 "extra" bucks that you've no doubt saved up by now, will STILL get --- no I won't say it......

TG

Aphex

I have an Aphex 207 (the non-digital version). While it is certainly not the best preamp I have ever used (I did a few sound recording internships in pro studios), it was a pleasant surprise when I compared it to the mic pres on my audio interface (an Aardvark Direct/Pro 2496). It has a smooth sound that adds just a touch of warmth. For the price, I feel like it is a really great deal. It also makes my tracks sound much better than using the mic pres on my Mackie 1402 VLZ.

I would buy the 3D Audio Pre CD Vol 1 from Sweetwater (http://www.sweetwater.com). It contains a comparison of several different mic preamps. The engineer recorded tracks of the same material with the same signal path with the exception of the mic pre. You can listen to the tracks and see what you like.

TeddyG....My original question in this post was this

"What are my options for 4 ch pre (or 4 single ch, or 2+2)and 2 ch converter around $2000?"

If you can't recommend anything because I'm not changing my soundcard right now, then please refrain from posting on this topic. I understand the equipment I have (I dont use the 1010). I understand what my plans are for the near future. I understand my needs and my goals, and what I'm trying to get at here. Replacing the interface is inevitable (sp?) but when I do that, I can still take my 4ch pre with me. Your posts have been neither insightful or useful.....

Here are a couple links to some other reviews on the Sebatron vmp 4000e, just so you won't have to take my word on it.

http://www.futureproducers.com/userreviews_reviews.php/model/256

http://www.mojopie.com/vmp2000e.html

Teddy,
Let's start a different thread re pres or converters, which one first ... so we don't hijack this thread.

Have not heard the SEb. but gets great reviews.

HAVE heard (and used) the ISA 428...great unit. Well worth the cash. alto music has 'em for under 1500.

Also, if you're a DIY guy (in short, do you own a soldering gun?) check out the seventh circle audio stuff. I've been waiting for the rumoured 2 space rack to come out so I can get a couple of the j99's.

Everything I've heard through the j99's (and the n72) sounds amazing. Haven't heard the API clone, but sure it's great as well.

PRES BEFORE CONVERTERS! My old MXL mic (my first mic!) sounded great through UA pre into 001 ("shitty" converters). My BLUEBERRY sounded like GARBAGE through the 001 pres (diff pre, same converters). The addition of good pres (and DI's- I got 2 avalon u5's) have made BY FAR the biggest impact of signal quality. PERIOD.

I was pleased when I upgraded to RME converters but not overwhelmed.

The Sebatron 4-channel VMP4000e is $1899.00, right in there, price-wise. The Focusrite IS 428 is $1700. Univeral Audio has the 4110, 4 channel, for a bit more at $2500. The Presonus M80 8 channel, though, is "only" $1800(For later expansion?).

Lots of pre's, like the Grace 101, for around 500 per channel(Hard to beat), if you'd like to stay with seperate units and not lose them all if one fails? There may be other usable benefits to having separates? Tube or solid state? My choice is solid state, at first, but, if tube is your choice Summit Audio's 2BA-221 is nice though $600 per channel and they can be "linked" and have a tube output - worth a look-see. My "ultimate" choice for a solid state pre would be a John Hardy, but 4 channels might be double your budget, or more. My ultimate choice for a tube pre would be something in a Pendulum Audio, though I would get the single channel Quartet, at around 3 grand, as I only need one really good one and could use the "channel strip" features, at times...

TG

Yes, KF, there probably should be a "sticky" - that gives at least your opinion of how to set-up a computer audio facility - where to start, how to proceed. Maybe begin it as a normal thread and let others chime-in and build on it for awhile? What parts of the system make the most difference and why. What different(Maybe "priced") systems will actually be good for - amateur - semi-pro - pro - super pro?

teddy, thanks for some reccomendations. I think I'm looking at getting a couple different flavors, up for consideration at the moment is the brick and a 2 ch sebatron....If I can find one to try.....that leaves room for either a grace 101 or RNP......or maybe something else. Im not going to jump into anything without hearing it first so this seems to give me a place to start....

kurt....does sebatron have a "try before you buy" type program?

imagineaudio wrote:
kurt....does sebatron have a "try before you buy" type program?

Yeah, they try your credit card right before you buy it. That's about the jist of the program.

imagineaudio wrote: ...does sebatron have a "try before you buy" type program?

Yes, they have a 30 day money back guarantee.

From their website......

Sebatron Direct's 30 Day Satisfaction Guarantee

If you are unsatisfied in any way with the quality or peformance of your Sebatron product, simply repack it and send it back to us within 30 days of purchase and we will issue you with a full refund.

TeddyG wrote: The Focusrite IS 428 is $1700.

Holy S&%T, I live in the wrong country. Here they are $3,495 WITHOUT the AD option, and if you want that, it's an extra $1500!!!..... while you can get the Seb 4000e for under $2k.
A no brainer really here in Aus

Hey Mark, where you at? I'm in Melbourne.

The Seb's are well priced for us Ozzies indeed.

Funny thing is I've found some on ebay recently that worked out to cost less than if I bought locally, even after shipping and conversion. Apparently that's cos they were older prices according to Seb.

I'm half way between you and Wilson's Prom.

audiofreqs wrote:

great pre's with crappy converters=crap
crappy pre's with great converters=crap

I've got to disagree here. A great pre through crappy converter's will sound unbelievably better than great converter's and a piece of crap preamp.

If you don't believe me get an Avalon 2022 or M5 and run it through your stock coverter's. Tell me you don't hear a difference.

You also have to realize that every digital thing you buy sinks like a rock in value. It will probably be worth nothing in a few years. Buy what you need digitally but realize your most solid investment will be your analog gear.