That said, I'm sure everyone here is about to embark on a lot of seasonal performances - you may be IN them or recording them. I've got three weekends of some-good, some-odd stuff happening...how bout you? What's ahead for you over the next three weeks? Anyone?

'tis the season for choir work... Had 4 choirs on Wednesday night. Got 2 more choral concerts on Sunday... So far, had to turn down 2 messiah's... (darn my friend for getting married on a Saturday in December....)

Lots of fun with omnis...

--Ben

There are so many things to discuss! So many things that I'm interested in have come up already. Glad Samplitude has come up. I have Sonar and a demo of Samplitude, and the sound quality of Samplitude is wonderful. Not knocking Sonar though.

Just ordered a Mini-Me for a knockdown price (Lunatec too expensive) but I can add a DAV BG1 with the price difference. It would be great to discuss stuff like this with orchestral/choral recording people.

I'm looking forward to hearing all about unusual venues and ensembles, and solutions to the problems that come with them.

You could probably have a whole forum on piano micing!

John Stafford

Four DIFFERENT Choirs (remotes) in one night, Ben, or was it a cattle-call? This is indeed a crazy time of year. Literally every choir or singing organization seems to come out of hiding this time of year. :-)
If it's not another "Messiah" Performance, it's a collection of holiday songs, both Christmas and Hannuka. (I"m not complaining, of course..it's good to be busy.)

We go into a dizzy of holiday stuff starting next week, but this weekend has us recording an unusual work; a chorale & orchestral performance of Michael Tippet's: "A Child of Our Time." (Definitely NOT something to cozy up with around a warm yuletide fire, but a good work to delve into and it's musical food for thought. This is one of those works that has an almost mandatory panel discussion afterwards.) It's got a 120 voice choir, med sized orchestra (bigger than chamber, smaller than full symphonic) and four soloists out in front. We recorded two nights of rehearsals and will do the concert on Sunday, editing the whole thing together after the music director makes his picks.

It's also grant-writing season for a few clients, and we've have to jump through a few deadline-based hoops to get some compilation CDs out the door this week. Sometimes it's scary to know you're a critical part of a clients 5-figure grant proposal, but nice to know they want to include you should the grant actually HAPPEN.

Oh btw., I watched a DVD of Tan Dun's "THE MAP" last night. (Deutsche Grammophone release.) Absolutely fantastic stuff.....has anyone see or hear about this work yet? GET IT and check it out, esp the multimedia recording done in China itself. Lots of DPA and Schoeps mics all over the stage; looks like they mic'd it for live PA and multitrack mixing. (The DVD sounds GREAT, esp in surround.)
I want to find out more about the team that did the audio. I'm sure they had a helluva time putting THIS one together.

No... Not 4 remotes, 4 choirs on one concert- all different groups, though with different accompanying groups. The 4 ensembles from the Univ. So. Calif.

Sunday, though, is 2 gigs out at once. Have a colleague covering one and I'll do the other and cover the post prod on both. Then it is 2 editing projects next week and a couple recitals and another choral concert.

Then nothing on the books until February... :? Gotta love the freelance life.

--Ben

Just wanted to register my interest, though I am only an amateur. I'm mainly interested in recording high quality sound for video. This is a logistic nightmare, as I have all the video equipment, and lighting, as well as sound stuff, to set up.
I use a single Schoeps MK4 and MK8 MS stereo pair. I generally set this up about 10 feet away from the front of the orchestra, and about 10 feet up, and hope for the best! I know it would be better if I could experiment more with the exact location, but I am generally pretty pressed for time. Also I find it difficult to judge the quality of the sound using headphones (Audio Technica ATH-M40fs).
Are other people using MS stereo techniques, and how do you set this up optimally?
Patrick

I use mid-side a lot. Usually, I use stereo mics so I can vary the middle pattern depending on the situation (usually an AKG 426). I also use a Royer stereo mic a lot for this kind of work.

Only thing you need to be aware of is that your sides are out of phase to make it work as a pattern. Because of this, if the level of the sides gets too high, it can sound like you have phase problems (with only 1 mic!).

For orchestral work, M-S is great because you can "focus" the middle towards your woodwinds and get a good pickup without the use of spot mics in a multi-mic system.

--Ben

If anybody is interested, I have a yahoo photo page up that has some photos of various gigs that I've done. Among them are an acapella vocal group I did at the Chapel on the Hill in central Calif, the large choir/orchestra thing that Joe mentioned earlier in this threat that I recorded at the Sydney Opera House last summer, a gig I did recording spatial music at the Getty Center Auditorium here in LA, and some other random shots...

the page is: http://photos.yahoo.com/fifthcircle2004

--Ben

Fantastic! They made a forum for this. That's just awesome and much needed! I'm looking very much forward to reading the posts and finally having a place where I can get competent help and criticism on what I'm doing most of - classical music. Great initiative guys!

Welcome, Ellegard; you can thank Ben for taking the initiative and getting this forum up and running. I hope we see a lot of new posts, and are able to pool our info and talents.

Hope to see more of your posts, opinions, and hear lots of stories from all (good AND bad!)

Thanks, JoeH. My perspective on this forum will rather be from the musician's, since my experience with recording is limited. I'm still new in this particular business, learning and aquiring gear, but I hope I can contribute with my own experiences, mostly those I have as a violinist in front of the microphones, but also behind all those knobs and faders.

Thank you, thank you, thank you, finally a forum that has what I want.

I am mainly interested in recording choirs and classical pipe organ on more of a amateur level. As far as the children's choir is concerned it is one that my son sings in and my wife plays for.

My main equipment is

Song Hi-MD 800
2 Earthworks SRO
ART DPS II
I like the new Hi-MD as it lets me record without any compression and then I can go straight into my computer and then burn a cd. I just used this set-up for the first time a few weeks ago and was very happy with the results. I know many of you are rolling over because of minidisc, but it works for me. I'm ready to learn more here and look forward to reading all post.

Peace to all,
Van

Crane wrote: I know many of you are rolling over because of minidisc, but it works for me. I'm ready to learn more here and look forward to reading all post.

Peace to all,
Van

Nope, not rolling over here. MD is a perfectly viable format for recording in the field. True, it's not as open and clear as even DAT or HD, but it sure is cheaper and is generally fairly bullet proof. I got a couple MD recorders around for back up on gigs.

J...

Thanks for the reply. Glad to see some other people use minidisc. Have you or anyone else had a chance to compare the new Hi-MD to dat? I may be looking to buying a good used dat after the first of the year. Thanks again, Van

I haven't tried the HD-MD, but it looks promising. (Just dont' have the time & resources to check out ALL the new formats....sometimes, for good or bad, I just have to stick with what works for me at the moment.)

I DO have a 2nd gen MD recorder, with a lot of features (including the ability to turn off the auto level and stuff, and with various other good options. I use it for interviews and such, it's really a fine device. (And I would probably use it in a pinch on other stuff if I had to...) I keep it in a briefcase with everything in it: 2 mics, table stands, power supply, batteries, blank discs and adapters. It's a perfect "all in one" kit for interviews and SFX recording in the field.

I think you may find that while many of us have our favorites (and things we really DO dislike intensely), this seems to be a good, polite and informed crowd that isn't interested in mocking or picking on anyone for their choices. These choices are often based on budgets and available resources, and none of us have a big bag of cash to buy anything we feel like.

Whether it's a profession or hobby, it's a labor of love for anyone attempting to get into this part of the sound rec biz.

Hi from France.

I am happy to join your (little !) community.

I record classical stuffs for 25 years now.

I'll introduce myself later when I'll have more time.

Happy Christmas

Jean-Marie Mathieu

Hi everyone. Please count me in among those in the 75-99% range. In fact , that is what I actually do for a living. I use a Beyerdynamic MC 833 N (C/7) Set, which is a 3 capsule microphone for MS operation and XY operation. I am most concerned about compression since we air our program every week on TV.I complement the stereo mike with an AKG414-EB in omni pattern to get some very low end. Best regards to all!!

JoeH wrote:

"Shameless plug dept: I've written a long rant/essay about it, (Mic'ing classical music - 2 vs. Multiple) and if you have the time you can visit my site and read it. (Westonsound.com - click on "Articles", and follow the link, etc.)"

JoeH, I´ve read your essay and I couldn`t agree more with your approach based on multitracking or closer micing in order to avoid all those unwanted noises generated by the audience, A/C systems, street traffic, etc.
The only drawback would be that you must have the conductor at the mix session, and that is not always possible. Otherwise the recording engineer would be in charge of the musical balance and I think that would be a very objectionable situation. However I promote this approach at the Orchestra in which I work with. Since we do have a principal conductor who performs about 80% of the venues and lives in town so we can work very closely. I found other information on your essay very valuable like time aligning tracks and the considerations about program material going through 2 ambiences. Very useful info!!!. Thanks. Javier
BTW. It comes to my mind that another thread could be."Symphony Orchestras;¿how loud should they sound?".

Hi, everyone!

I am very happy to have found this forum, as there are few places that I know of on the WWW to discuss classical recording.

Joe H- I read your essay on 2 mic VS multimic recording and enjoyed it. A good explanation of how when when we have no visual and enviornmental cues to help us, the audio balances must be much more exact to provide a good musical experience. I noted, though, that you mostly used enviornmental noises as examples of this. I find that many musical balances need correction as well- especially when choirs and vocal soloists are involved with modern orchestras. So-- I'd love to see more in-depth discussion on when and how to spot-mic.

I'd also love to see discussions on (for instance):

Streamlining setup time. (many of the shows I record are at venues that are too busy to allow much of this).

Assistants I would love to know how to care for and feed these creatures. Budgets seldom allow me to pay them more than token fees. Mostly I do all the work myself as I need it done with great care, but I also feel a desire to pass knowledge on to the next generation...

Dynamic levels Many clients say they want 'full dynamic' but also do not want to constantly adjust their car volume controls. I employ various tricks to help with this. Unlike pop, in classical, dynamics are still allowed and encouraged (thank god). But many find 'untreated, full range' modern orchestral recordings unlistenable except under 'full attention, headphones on' conditions. I'd love to know what you folks do with this issue.

Anyway- that's my first post! Looking forward to checking back here soon!

sincerely

Exultavit

Some great ideas on discussions- There are a number of things that I have some particularly strong feelings about.

Why don't you start a couple threads to cue the discussion in one way or another...

--Ben

Big welcome to Javier & Exultavit; Thanks for the kind words, too! That rant/essay of mine was born almost entirely as a counter-argument against someone (no one worth mentioning here) who's a "purist" and had been touting his "2- mic" approach to many people I knew, and not doing a very good job of it anyway. (Said person doesn't edit, either, and has something of a reputation as "difficult". (Again, best to leave out any names...)

I grew tired of trying to explain it over and over again to skeptics or people who just don't know enough about the process in general, and would occasionally be swayed by the whole "2 mics are the only TRUE way to record. Ever." I've done plenty of 2mic recordings, but as we all know, there is often a lot more to the story.

There are lots of times when it's a great approach (Philadelphia Orchestra did one of those recordings with only 2 mics a few years back, but it was late at night, multiple takes, and NO ONE ELSE in the building to make a sound), but IMHO the lengths one must go through to pull it off are just as off-putting and complicated as doing it the way we do now.

Just this past week, I had to prepare a 1 hr broadcast of a baroque ensemble compiled from some recordings that we've done, plus a few tracks from a hobbyist fellow who means well, but only uses two mics wayyyy back in the audience for that "Natural" sound (whatever THAT may be....) To my horror, this other guy's recording had audience noises (esp sneezing!) in some places louder than the music itself. It was a pain getting levels sorted out to make it usuable, using some VERY clever multiband limiting here and there, some selective noise reduction and a few other goodies that Samplitude/Sequoia offers. These are NOT things I'd normally have to do with my own stuff, but again, a little knowledge (like 2 mic recording - in the wrong hands) can be a dangerous thing.

But it's good to see so many new folks, and I'm happy to see topics that Exultavit already being posted. Some GREAT ideas there. I'll respond over there as well....

Javier wrote: <>

This is an excellent point, Javier, and it's something that's slowly evolved with me in the last 5-10 years. Originally, it was almost always 2-track stereo recordings, with or without ambience & reverb. In the days of just analog 2-track recording, (and later DAT) we were often simply "stuck" with what we got (and the mindset was always "Get it right NOW; no "fix it in the mix" stuff.) In these instances, we got what we got, and aside from a reference copy (Usually on cassette at the time), they worked with it.

Since DA-x8's and ADATs, multitracking for even classical live recordings has gotten easier and more affordable, with more critical mixing done later. (with DAWs and laptops, even moreso!)

I handle the "who's making the mixing decisions?" question several ways.

For basic services and things that I know ahead of time dont have the budget for extensive edits/revisions, I have a line on our production agreement that states: "Mixing is at our discrection".

But whenever possible, I try to have a one-on-one with the conductor ahead of time and discuss their goals prior to any recording. Sometimes it's a guest conductor, or a hall that's new to both of us. We'll talk about the soloists, if any, and the blend he/she is hearing, what they want to avoid, and what they hope the audience will hear. I make it clear to them that I am there to interpret THEIR artistic vision and recreate what THEY are hearing. There are still some older conductors who are new to the whole DAW/editing thing, but more and more the folks coming up from the music schools and colleges are pretty hip to what can be done nowadays. It's a fine line between meddling and a good 'bedside manner", but the good ones appreciate your attention to their details.

Believe me, it goes a long way to gaining your clients trust and loyalty. One of the WORST things you can do to a classical/serious musician or conductor is to attempt to divorce the two: recording accurately vs. re-creating a concert in an arbitrary way like a rock or pop recording, where remixing can go on forever. You cannot make it appear you're taking control out of THEIR hands.

My clients do know that I make every effort to REALLY LISTEN to the ensemble in the hall, during the rehearsals/sound checks, etc. and I always strive for a good mix of realism first. (The really sparklie & enhancement stuff like Reverb, Room Sims, etc. comes later - only after it's been approved or suggested.)

In many cases, my clients simply trust me, and I am fortunate to have some great long term clients. (For the most part! ;-) Once in a while if something is really far off the mark, I'll do a remix (unfortunately on my OWN time), but it's usually rare, esp if it's an archival recording.

For more complex things with larger budgets, I will get the Conductor a copy before we get too far into the process. (Sometimes even via FEDex if one of us is going out of town, or whatever.) My most "Educated" clients get temp CDrs of a work in progress, where I let THEM make all the edit decisions, based on time marking on the CDs, and we then edit together, in person, quickly and smoothly after that. (Very few have the time & $ to sit and do something with me a that they can do with headphones in their own space.) Usually by then, most issues related to the "Mix" are taken care of.

So yes, the "who's in charge of the mix" can be tricky, but with many busy working conductors, the really talented ones won't beat you up terribly about "the mix". (Assuming you're doing a good job, of course!) Most of them will trust you if you're giving them a sense of confidence, and as long as you're clear with your objectives and pricing (and what it would cost them to do a huge, time-consuming remix), things will hopefully fall into a smooth working relationship.

My own semi-provable theory is that the more truly talented they are, the less BS occurs around them, likewise with the mixes & edits.

One of the "upsides" to this biz! ;-)

Cucco wrote: I am interested to find out how many of you there are and if there is any interest in creating a community specializing in orchestral/choral/ensemble recording.

If that combination of ensembles was what the poll was about, then I misunderstood.

Perhaps what you are suggesting is a CLASSICAL-ONLY community, as the only folks left out from the group you suggest are pianists, organists, accordianists, violinists and cellists playing Bach suites, etc.

This really touches on the entire aesthetic that Ben has mentioned before-- capturing sound vs creating sound. Closely connected is the desire to present a recording that has all the neccesary info to place the listener into an acoustic (real or convolved), rather than inside a guitar pickup. Of course, there is always an "editorial slant"-- do I choose Schoeps omnis or DPAs?

Well, enough hot air-- count me in.

Rich

Nice to see you here Rich... :D

--Ben