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I'm looking at an amp for recording, three of the same line as a matter of fact. Two of which have speakers rated at 4 Ohm and the big daddy having a speaker rated at 8 Ohm.

From an engineer's standpoint is this significant? How about from a guitarist's standpoint :D I'm fairly sure that for guitarists more ohms = better, but my knowledge is a bit fuzzy.

Comments

jg49 Mon, 06/01/2009 - 02:58

I don't have and really don't know if there is an exact answer to this question. The generally accepted wisdom seems to be that a speaker matched correctly for the impedance of the amp will sound good and that impedance in this situation is not generally thought to provide a significant difference. For example JBL builds 4 ohm speakers for a lot of sound reinforcement systems, if 4 ohm speakers were crap I doubt that they would market them. On the other hand companies like Fender use 16 ohm speakers in most of their higher end equip. Is this just because of the tube amplifiers design, I don't know.
I do know that custom rigs for pro guitarists often use mismatched cabs, a 4 ohm cabinet for an 8 ohm amp is believed to supply a bassier more distorted sound while a 16 ohm one will deliver a brighter sound though this does lower the life expectancy of tubes or amps.
I can't tell by listening that that amp is 16 ohms and that one is definitely 8.

Boswell Mon, 06/01/2009 - 03:33

Guitarfreak wrote: I'm looking at an amp for recording, three of the same line as a matter of fact. Two of which have speakers rated at 4 Ohm and the big daddy having a speaker rated at 8 Ohm.

From an engineer's standpoint is this significant? How about from a guitarist's standpoint :D I'm fairly sure that for guitarists more ohms = better, but my knowledge is a bit fuzzy.

More than a bit. If you are talking about combo amps, then the designer will have done the job of matching the amplifier output to the impedance of the loudspeaker, and it need not concern you.

The thing you should be concentrating on for a recording amp is how it sounds at relatively low power levels, including taking into account any distortion settings you feel you need. The better the sound you can get when running at 10W or so, the easier it will be to get a good recording from it.

Guitarfreak Mon, 06/01/2009 - 08:11

Boswell wrote: The thing you should be concentrating on for a recording amp is how it sounds at relatively low power levels, including taking into account any distortion settings you feel you need.

That's the vibe I got, but some things that people say throw me off. I quote bands that have the exact tone I want, and people all of a sudden say, cranked tube amp, cranked tube amp, there's no question about it, cranked tubes... And that contradicts everything else I know about studio recording. How?

Boswell wrote: The better the sound you can get when running at 10W or so, the easier it will be to get a good recording from it.

And how would I measure the voltage going into the power amp? I don't have meters or anything. Is it like an easy math equation? For instance, if the amp is 100 watt, and if you want to run at 10 watts set the volume at 1 or below? Or is there significantly more to it. There's gotta be, or else this wouldn't be an olympic art form. @_@

jg49 Mon, 06/01/2009 - 09:55

Look there are two simple ways to get the cranked tube overdrive and ten watts, buy a ten watt amp and run it all the way out, or even say a 15 watt amp at nearly full throttle. The other way is an attenuator like this
http://www.samedaymusic.com/product--THDHP
But since that unit costs 75% of your amp budget I guess you are probably gonna have to find a small amp, because running a tube amp on 1, or completely throttling down the amp with a master volume will pretty much negate the tonal quality you buy the amp for in the first place.
This is one of the reasons Davedog was talking about something like this
http://guitars.musiciansfriend.com/product/Fender-Champion-600-5-Watt-1x6-Combo-Amp?sku=485054&src=3WFRWXX&ZYXSEM=0&CAWELAID=44097308
he said that they have made very good recordings with it. Hard to feel like a guitar god cranking out 5W, but you want it for recording right?
The other option in your price range is a Line6 OMG NO not solid state!!!! Price range vs tone vs versatility Is it the best killer tone no, but $500 and the best killer tone can't truly coexist in the same sentence. sigh, life is full of compromise.

anonymous Mon, 06/01/2009 - 10:24

The other option in your price range is a Line6 OMG NO not solid state!!!!

It's digital, not solid state. Solid state uses transistors, digital uses... logarithms and... digital stuff. :lol: This would be what I would recommend for Guitarfreak's budget. Seriously.

But yes, tube amps need to be cranked. The shortcut is to get an amp with a master volume, and turn the master up to 10 and keep the preamp levels at about 1/4 (on a scale from 1 - 10). I use this strategy with my V3 and it works amazingly well.

soapfloats Mon, 06/01/2009 - 23:13

I think a lot of the disconnect comes from the fact that guitars have become exemplified by arena rock.
You're recording a guitar track, not recreating AC/DC live @ Glastonbury.

Whenever something in recording doesn't make sense, I always remind myself that the recent album that is my benchmark (beautiful balance, mix, stereo spread, and tones) was recorded almost exclusively live (all-together) with SM57s. Really!

Are you unhappy w/ the amp sound itself or the way it sounds recorded?
I'm not saying don't get a better amp - just make sure you're actually addressing the real issue.

Boswell Tue, 06/02/2009 - 02:35

Guitarfreak wrote: [quote=Boswell]The better the sound you can get when running at 10W or so, the easier it will be to get a good recording from it.

And how would I measure the voltage going into the power amp? I don't have meters or anything. Is it like an easy math equation? For instance, if the amp is 100 watt, and if you want to run at 10 watts set the volume at 1 or below? Or is there significantly more to it. There's gotta be, or else this wouldn't be an olympic art form. @_@
No meters necessary - your ears are the best instrument for this.

What I find works well for recording is the sort of volume level you get from a practice amp. That's not to say you should actually use a practice amp, but treat your main amp as though it were one. Crank the input gain to get the distortion or other effect you want, but wind back on the output gain so the acoustic output is at a level you might use when the neighbours have elderly visitors for tea. Position the SM57 and you are good to record.

Guitarfreak Tue, 06/02/2009 - 07:54

Boswell wrote: Crank the input gain to get the distortion or other effect you want, but wind back on the output gain so the acoustic output is at a level you might use when the neighbours have elderly visitors for tea.

K, that's what I've been doing lately. It works pretty well because I have a distortion in front of it. Now what if the person in question has an all tube half stack/combo? Same rules apply? Because if we are talking about tone here then you lose a lot of the tube tone by turning it down. Or so I hear, I've never actually gotten the magical opportunity to play an all tube amp cranked.

soapfloats, it's definitely the amp though. It sounds decent enough for a small gig but not great. But when recorded you really get a feel for how solid state and fake it sounds. The high end sounds crackly and thin. And like I said before, it feels too airy.

Lately though I've been going for more of a metal tone. I've heard a sound clip from the Peavey 3120 which sounded really good. You guys tell me, can I get the sound I'm going for out of a small amp, or should I bite down and save up enough money for an all tube half stack?

mark02131 Tue, 06/02/2009 - 10:31

Fender makes some amazing remakes of some of the best amps they ever made. Sweetwater.com has a nice selection of them. I like the smaller amps for recording, I also like to record amps that have a single speaker.

Sure you can put a full stack in a sound proof room with a mic and crank it up but I don't recommend it.

Really any tube amp that uses the 6V6 output tube is going to sound pretty good. I have never heard a bad sounding 6V6. Also the 6L6GT's are nice sounding.

anonymous Tue, 06/02/2009 - 11:50

What I find works well for recording is the sort of volume level you get from a practice amp. That's not to say you should actually use a practice amp, but treat your main amp as though it were one. Crank the input gain to get the distortion or other effect you want, but wind back on the output gain so the acoustic output is at a level you might use when the neighbours have elderly visitors for tea.

What were you smoking when you wrote this? If it's a digital or solid state amp then your advice is fine, but for tube amps it is the exact opposite of what you want. The tooooooooone comes from pushing power tubes, not preamp tubes.

jg49 Tue, 06/02/2009 - 12:40

While really alot of this is personal taste, after all if there was some perfect equation then all good amps would sound identical. I am of the opinion that both preamp distortion and power tube saturation are essential to bad to the bone tone.
This is a quote "When you cut out or simulate any major component in a classic amp rig, something is lost. You can lose a degree of dynamic depth or lose a distortion component such as preamp distortion, power-tube saturation, or speaker distortion. As you move time effects from post-mic toward the front of the amp, you introduce increasing degrees of "intermodulation distortion", as the delayed signal conflicts with the immediate signal in a distortion bottleneck. The best Tone (or a rig for the widest tonal palette) has:

o All 4 degrees of distortion: preamp distortion, power-tube saturation, output transformer distortion, and speaker distortion.

o Minimal intermodulation distortion (the most would be time fx before the amp, introducing a degree of I.M.D. at each distortion stage).

o Full dynamic depth. Requires transparent preamp distortion that allows all notes of a chord to come through. Requires power-tube saturation response. Requires a hard-driven speaker. Requires direct power-tube/speaker interaction with no dummy load in between."

Another quoted opinion
"THE STUDIO REFERENCE RIG SETUP AND TONE

The reference, authentic, pro-studio approach to a genuine, authoritative rock tone uses the following sequence of processing stages:

o Eq-related effects
o Preamp distortion
o Eq and non echo-related effects
o Hard-driven power tubes, output transformer
o Hard-driven speaker, traditional cabinet -- guitar placed near the speakers
o Mics
o Post-processing at the board: eq, echo-derived effects, reverb

It's important to understand the basic stages that are used in a pro rock studio, in order to try to reproduce these stages as closely as feasible, whatever your equipment situation.

Many guitar tracks were recorded with echo before the power tubes, but almost always, the amp is not cranked, because the beats are unmusical and scramble and weaken the basic Tone. The only way to combine *cranked* amp Tone with echo-derived effects is to place those effects after the amp.

Now, if you want to attempt genuine pro rock studio tone with low room-noise levels, you know what's important, what the reference setup is that you're trying to emulate, and what shortcuts you might be able to get away with while retaining as many genuine cranked-amp elements as you can.

The speaker isolation cabinet, with perhaps a small speaker, driven directly by a 5-watt amp, *might* be able to perfectly reproduce all elements of the Reference Setup and Reference Tone except for room reverberation and feedback through the guitar. You could then fake (or improvise) those two elements by reverb and by putting the guitar close to a monitor or using the Sustainiac."
Amp Summit - Guitar Player, Mar & Apr issues, 1996

These are the reasons why many of the true pro lead guitarists record with practice amps run at full or nearly full throttle. In my discussions with some of them regarding the tone issue, most seem to prefer these amps in small or moderate studio spaces. They seemed to feel that while you give up a tiny amount of overall tone using a smaller speaker, most often referring to "brighter" less dense sound the overall results are worth the trade off.
I am not an amp tech in fact I am not very technically inclined, I am dyslexic and find it difficult to remember specs without notes especially numbers, so with that in mind it is my folkloric understanding that most "Metal" tones are derived at from the use of multiple preamp staging or "cascading" (built into the amp itself) where a good deal of the overdrive is developed in the preamp stage and flushed out in the following three stages (power tube saturation, output transformer, and hard driven speaker.)
There is one other key idea in the last quote often overlooked by guitarists in self recording, all reverb, delay and echo should be added in post production.

anonymous Tue, 06/02/2009 - 12:56

These are the reasons why many of the true pro lead guitarists record with practice amps run at full or nearly full throttle.

Yes. Forget the stack. Go get a head and a 1x12 cabinet. Like jg49 said, preamp tubes, power tubes, and the speaker(s) are all essential links in the chain to getting good guitar tone. While the distortion occurs in the preamp tubes, pushing the preamp tubes isn't going to do much of anything. Pushing the power tubes is what creates fat, rich, and punchy tones that are still crystal clear. Pushing the speaker is another step often overlooked. I have found that using low wattage speakers helps tremndously, as they distort faster and don't sound "stiff" like higher wattage speakers do. I wish I could afford an isolation cabinet right now, but I think that is a ways down the road for me. 8) Right now just using a 1x12 with my head works quite well. :D

Guitarfreak Tue, 06/02/2009 - 16:29

So you guys are leaning towards an all tube head. What all tube head would you recommend? While we're at it why not recommend a 1x12 cabinet too?

I'm still keeping the Blackstar 5 watt on my blacklist, unless we can find a good all tuber for a reasonable price. Plus I like how it comes with its own cabinet, which takes the guesswork out of the equation.

For metal now, I still like the way the Peavey 3120 sounds, at least from what I've heard it sounds good. I have no idea what cab the guy in the video is using though. Looks like a 2x12.

BTW, just a side question, that cascading of the preamp tiers, that's referred to as rectifying right? Dual recto means it cascades once and triple recto means it cascades twice right?

anonymous Tue, 06/02/2009 - 18:05

The Blackstar is precisely the idea though.

It's nice when someone reassures you that you're on the right track every once in a while.

I really wouldn't imagine that the Blackstar is all that great since it's priced so low. I can practically guarantee you that you will end up upgrading once you can afford it. There's a reason Mesa Boogies are used by so many guitarists, and it's not because they're prohibitively expensive; it's because they get the job done. The Peavey 3120 is a much better choice, although, it is brand new, so I'd imagine there are some bugs Peavey will need to work out. I don't like being the first person to buy a new thing. You can get a V3 for less than the 3120, and it just seems that Peavey was updating the XXX to be more like the V3 if you ask me: https://www.carvinguitars.com/products/single.php?product=V3 There are a lot more amps around the $1,000 mark that are decent, so I'd recommend looking there. And you might consider a combo amp, as it will cost less to get a combo than a separate head and cabinet.

Codemonkey Tue, 06/02/2009 - 18:30

"It's nice when someone reassures you that you're on the right track every once in a while."

That means that somewhere, you're doing the same as someone else.
Your tone is your tone. You can get suggestions on how to change it to give you other tone, but doing everything everyone else does means it all sounds the same.

Guitarfreak Tue, 06/02/2009 - 18:37

Why does everyone always talk about sounding like someone else being a bad thing? Tone is tone, and if someone has good tone then why wouldn't you want to sound like them?

I believe you should differentiate yourself by doing different things with the music and composition. Tone is tone, and bad tone is bad tone.

When I hear someone play guitar and they sound stylistically like a copy cat of another artist out there, I turn it off. But I've never heard a song and said, this guys guitar sounds just like Eddie Van Halen's guitar (next).

jg49 Wed, 06/03/2009 - 03:01

Oh course you are doing something like someone else has done before or every guitarist would have to have their own custom amp and exactly how many different circuitry could there be.
NCDan "I really wouldn't imagine that the Blackstar is all that great since it's priced so low."
It is a 5 watt amp! How much should it cost? I've never heard it but it is in the same price range as the Fender Champ which if you like Fender sound is a great little amp.
As far as individual sound goes both the Foo Fighters and Kirk Hammet (Metallica) use Mesa Boogies and I can't think of two more diverse sounds. It is what you do with it.

jg49 Wed, 06/03/2009 - 09:28

Have you tried out this
http://www.americanmusical.com/Item--i-BLA-BH5HS
You could later add this upgrade, use the next link go to Blackheart page. Trust me not many will have this. Only about $100.00 total costs over your budget.

http://www.mercurymagnetics.com/pages/mainframe.htm
Or you could buy any other amp and upgrade.
Sigh, but the reciewer said not for Metal heads, als and alack.

When you say wire your own I assume you mean replacing and not talking about winding a transformer yourself?

Guitarfreak Wed, 06/03/2009 - 14:46

Yes, actually it's funny that you mention it because I did look at that amp also. But it seemed a little too 'vintage' for me I guess. What did you mean by upgrade? Did you mean use a nicer cab?

About the output transformer, I was under the impression that it was something inserted in between the head and the speaker to allow you to have saturated tube tone at lower volumes. Please tell me if I am wrong.

Davedog Wed, 06/03/2009 - 18:05

I've heard a Blackstar. My guitaist who IS a HUGE gear slut, btw, Bought one and brought it to a gig. He played a whole set with it. The clean settings left me a bit cold but most could be that we didnt spend a lot of time setting it....the distortion side, however , is something to behold.

Realize that this is a pedal builder company. They have very high-end distortion pedals in their catalog and this amp is simply one of their pedals with an amp attached to it.

For hard edged and even metal rock this thing @five watts and on the distortion settings is KILLER.

And until you've actually heard one, dont be so sure that the price point is an indicator of value and usage.

This same guitarist uses a Carr Hammerhead every night. They aint cheap! They sound incredible. He uses this little amp because we simply dont play venues that the early JCM800, the early 70's 100 watt, or the David Bray modded Plexi would be usable. Nor would either of the actual real wood Marshall cabinets work for us as a band.

But it is all about tone. Its why we can play a lot louder with fewer complaints than most other bands in our club rotation. Theres not any crap coming out. And the wash from the stage is at a minimum. The PA is meant to do the work and it does. We just have a decent level for us so we can hear the monitors clearly, all the guitars and the drums....Sound men love us!

So, if you want an amp that you can record heavy distorted stuff, that has articulation and bite, that Blackstar will do just that. And the EQ actually is effective.

Kapt.Krunch Tue, 06/09/2009 - 08:07

Back to Ohhhmmm...

Some amps are more forgiving of an impedance mismatch at their output than others. Many Fenders will be OK with a one-step up or down. If it has a 4 ohm out, you can try an eight, but probably shouldn't try a sixteen. Definitely, DON'T try a two-ohm load.

If it has an 8-ohm out, you could go either way. 16 ohm load will make the sound a bit cleaner and tighter, and not quite as loud. 4 ohm will probably break up quicker and be a bit louder. I can run my Marshall cab at 4 or 16 ohm, and I like 4 better. Don't mismatch loads on Marshalls. Period. My amp and cab are both switchable to match, so it's OK.

You have to find out which particular amp is forgiving of this, and not. If in doubt, run only at the proper load it was designed for.

Also, 10-15 watts can get fairly loud, with an efficient speaker. In fact, theoretically, it would take a 100W amp to SOUND only twice as loud as a 10W amp, if the same number of equally efficient and "power-rated relative to the amp" speakers were used. Which is actually an impossible task, but the theory is there. If you put a VERY INEFFICIENT speaker on a 50W amp, and a VERY EFFICIENT speaker on a 15W amp, it's conceivable that the 15W amp could easily keep up with the 50W one, volume-wise. Plug a little 6W Fender VibroChamp into a cab with an EVM12L sometime. Going from an 8" relatively inefficient speaker, to a 12" efficient one makes it SOUND louder. It also sounds cleaner. The EV will handle gobs more power, so you'd think it would load it down. It's not really working it hard, which is partly why it sounds cleaner. It's also not quite "as tight" as the 8". The amp is doing all the distortion. With the lower-powered, smaller 8", it starts compressing and distorting when the amped is turned up. It gets to a point where it really doesn't get louder, it's all compressed and just gets more distorted.

As mentioned, though, all the things in the path, from the guitar and string guages, to the pickups, to any overdrive or distortion boosts in front, to the input circuitry to the preamp design, through the tone circuitry, through the output amp, through the transformer, and finally the size, type, efficiency and number of speakers affect the tone and volume of an amp.

Lower-powered tube amps are great for recording because they can be cranked up further, a BIT less loud than higher-powered ones. This means fewer sound waves bouncing all over the place to deal with reflecting back into the mic(s). 5-10W amps are perfect for cranking up and sticking a mic in front of. They can sound at least as huge as a wall of Marshalls. Ask Page or Clapton or any of those guys about tiny little amps and big old sounds.

OK, enough of my caffeine-induced post.

As always, everything I write is open to debate. Feel free to correct anything I may have misstated. I may learn something. :wink:

Kapt. Krunch