The only common alternative for a beta 52 I would think of is the AKG D112. Mine gave me good service for the past 15years !
I think of buying a beta to have an alternative also ;)

If you record drums, I would first think of a match pair overhead mics.

for kick there's also Audix D6 ... for snare look at Beyer M201.

i have two pairs for sale, love to sell them to a member here over anywhere else.

The EV RE20 is at that price used and it's my favorite on kick. Great vocal - particularly voiceover - mic. I have not tried it on snare. It's bulky, so it might be hard to place.

you guys have me thinking...

pc: can you talk more about a matched pair for overheads please? why is that most important, and what do you suggest i look for?

audiokid: you have a matched pair of overhead mics for sale?

and... why cant i take the front off the kick drum, and drop a beta52, D6, RE20, AND a 112 and mix the them to taste. space shouldn't be an issue, keeping them in phase no problem.
I mean, i find that im liking the thickness i've been getting when using various processing on the same source. for example, i was working on this big phat (lol) bass patch last week, and instead of routing it out and back in through just one distortion pedal i went out and back in 3 pedals. one was a delay just to create a tonal "floor" that would drone on at a low level.
then taking the big muff pi for the monstrous low end my clone has and filtering the top end off.
the third was my black distortion (a rat clone iirc?) that i filtered the bottom off of, then mixed all 3 back to taste.
besides creating a larger and fuller sounding instrument, it allows for subtle tonal shifts as the song progresses so you arent hearing the exact same thing all the way through.

I have matched Mojave MA 100SP SDC with the bar and case. 2 x MA300 LCD, not matched but close enough.
I also have RODE matched NT4. more budget but a great deal as well. All these are new. Private collection that I got for my lake studio that is no more in the fold. Maybe one day again...
They are in our classifieds for those interested:
http://recording.org/index.php?forums/classifieds.11/

I don't no if they have to be exact, just two of the same is close enough, which these all are. Two mics the same for overheads is a beautiful thing. A must. Two mics for many things is a beautiful thing.

The MA100SP are maybe more than your budget but would be ideal for you.

Josh Conley, post: 417039, member: 47953 wrote: you guys have me thinking...
pc: can you talk more about a matched pair for overheads please? why is that most important, and what do you suggest i look for?

The reason to have a pair is to give a stereo image. If you were mixing in mono you'd use one overhead. The classic is an AKG C12 if you have a few pennies to spair. The reason for an overhead is to give you air and the sound of an acoustic kit - particularly on the cymbals. If you really like the sound of samples and electronic drums, close micing with a bit of reverb could be fine.

and... why cant i take the front off the kick drum, and drop a beta52, D6, RE20, AND a 112 and mix the them to taste. space shouldn't be an issue, keeping them in phase no problem.
I mean, i find that im liking the thickness i've been getting when using various processing on the same source.

You can, and some people do. But it is rarely necessary. We are not talking rocket surgery here. I've recorded the front and back of the kick to get different chunks of attack and sustain. But three or four mics seems excessive. (If your job is to track and deliver to someone who will mix, the game is different.)

good infos guys thx! most of your stuff is out of my budget chris, but the NT4 is a stereo mic, yes?

if yall think this would be the strongest addition i can make right now, im game. how much you want for it?

Actually, even though I have the NT4, I meant to say NT5. The NT5 is a stereo kit . That being said, I don't have these but you may want the NT55, (which are the same as the NT5 but have the pad)

If you are playing loud, the NT55 might be better for you. See what the guys say. I'm a mixer with a lot of mics..

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/NT5
They are hardly worth selling. $220 USD you pay shipping. Either way, they are there as an option if you want them.

More to think about.

I use the NT5's as overheads and sometimes for things like a stereo pair on acoustic guitar. No complaints at all. My drummer isn't the loudest anymore, but he's not quiet either and I have to deal with 6.5 foot basement ceilings on top of that, but I've never needed a pad like the NT55 has. I just run them straight into my Cranesong Spider and the results are pretty respectable (moderately treated tracking room). I don't know how much of that is the Spider vrs the microphone, but I think they're a pretty reliable set of overheads and at that price, I don't think you could go wrong.

Anyone have a 8 or 9 foot basement ceiling they want to sell?

I'm just gonna throw this out there...

You might want to consider a 414, or if you have the money, a pair of them... while not cheap, they are great all-round mics...beyond being sweet mics for drum overheads, they are also great for vox, acoustic guitar, guitar amps, horns, strings, piano, upright bass, pretty much anything you can think of. 414's sport four different patterns - Cardioid, Fig 8, Omni and Hyper Cardioid... so you have a great selection of patterns from which you could use them for multiple mic arrays like X-Y, ORTF, M-S, Blumlein, etc. They also have a built-in pad, -0, -10, -20, and a HPF, fixed at 0, 75hz and 150hz.

I have a pair of vintage 414 EB's ( 1979-80) that I'd never part with... but the newer models - XL, ULS and XLS-B's are certainly very nice mics too.

They can generally be found anywhere between $400 to $800 (ea) on Ebay.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/AKG-C414-XLS-/261530972281?pt=US_Pro_Audio_Microphones&hash=item3ce475f079

FWIW

d/

For those who are working with not so warm preamps, the shure ksm44 are a good alternative to the new c414. I found the top end a bit less agressive. Not to denigrate the Classic c414.
But, in the price range of Josh (300$) if he can find a good nt5 matched pair used.. That'll be my choice.. ;)

im going to take you up on those audiokid. ill msg u to work out the details.

ill keep an eye on CL for a couple days for a second "bass" mic out of the three you guys mentioned. i think im going to want/need one if we decide to mic the bass cab at the same time as the drum kit. we can go direct off the amp and turn the speaker off i dont want to get stuck in a situation im not ready for :)

in another couple months (give or take) i can afford to upgrade to a sub-thousand dollar mic. Donny really makes a convincing case for the c414, in other threads too, plus it has a solid rep. i think the c12 is too costly to be an option. I'm of the opinion i would rather have a chandler preamp and something lower end like the c414 ;) lol i dont (yet?) see the value in 3,000$ mics.
ive been looking at that ksm44 too mostly because i have a buddy that works for shure, maybe he can get me employee pricing? im also of the opinion that used gear is a better investment for my current situation of generating 0 revenue at this point. Anyhow, can you guys please speak a little more to the sound of the 44 vs the 414 please? what do u like using them on? anything u wanna tell me ;)

another thread methinks, but those of you living from making music in one form or another, what sort of protocols do you have in place for depteciation, taxes, new vs old, insurance, etc...?

are you guys as excited about all this as i am ;) lol

I'm all excited when ever I order new gear, glad you enjoy yourself ;)
I own 2 x ksm 44 (had them for 400$ each on ebay) and a ksm32. I did read a lot about the c414 and even if I don't own one, I read that they are real work horses as I consider my 44s. Sonicly some say the my be a bit bright for an all digital realm, that's why I picked the 44s (and the fact I got a pair for 800$) Now that I own a La-610, a ISA 2 and a UA 4-710, I wonder if my budget will let me get a hand on a 414 to have another sonic option..

Ah ! if money wasn't an issue !! LOL

Love the nt 5s, great for acoustics, they are a great deal, and not a compromise against the usual suspects, like the 81s 541s. They hold their own just fine, and I bash rode all the time for making the nt1.

The kms series's is nice, good mics, no ,particular character, but nice. The 414 is a mic I love, I own the Xls one, and i call them the 57 s of LDCs. They just can be used for about everything, al beit w a bit of a sonic signature, they tend to be on the brighter side, more so than the uls. But if I only had one LDC in that range, (which I do) that's the one. I have no regrets. The multiple pickup patterns are nice, and if you don't need them then there's the 214, which is in line w the similar ksm 32.

I don't think the kms series is a compromise in quality, Its just a question of something that has a classic reputation, and a bit more of a sonic signature, vs something new and more neutral, either one is as good as the other, just different.

I went for a classic mic, becuase I had used one years before and really liked it. It's worth as much used as a paid for it used over 6 years ago, and the ksms weren't out yet lol. I still think it's a great mic, and I hate bright equipment i general. But it's a good bright, think more detail, than bright as in harsh or thin, it's bright, but not in a cheap way. I just like the detail of the mic. I've used them on vocals, acoustics, electric amps, hand drums, overheads, rooms (they live in the reverb room at the studio). Overall all things considered, it's tough to beat them, and while they may have some matches or close matches in some others mentioned when you consider, the overall investment finances, reputation, and well rounded ness of the mic, I think it's has an edge over either of those. That said, if one of those caters to you personally better, then there is no reason to think your getting an inferiority product.

Another mic that is dope and kills for the price is the nueman tlm 102. Believe me, it's a REAL mic. The 103, it's more expensive cousin, not worth it, the 44 and 414 smokes it. The 103 is cardiod only, but a very very nice mic.

Also, the avantone cv12 is no joke. Really, no joke, and a far better mic than its Chinese origins and price would imply. We put it up against our c 12 and it was actually beat it out sometimes, mainly for a more airy top end. I still like the c12 better, for it's just more robust deeper richer sound, but the cv12 ain't bad, and certainly a a good deal.

Do yourself a favor and don't try the c12, because, it will almost undoubtably change your opinion on whether it's too costly or not :)

Kiks- you might like the akg d112 if you want something more rounded in sound than the 52. A 421 is also a great kick mic. The beta 91 is beater attack for days, and great for rock and roll.

I'll second the Audix D6, and add the E-V N/D868 and Heil PR48 to the list.

If you're not going to buy audiokid's NT5s, I'm helping a friend's widow sell off a few things. He had a matched pair of NT5s, (probably never even used knowing him) in the moulded case. If they've been used, they're immaculate. I'll be listing them in the [[url=http://[/URL]="http://recording.or…"]Classifieds[/]="http://recording.or…"]Classifieds[/] section of Recording.org shortly if you're interested.

I'll be putting up a new AKG C3000 and MXL3000 too.

Kmetal : Using the ksm44 and ksm32 myself, I must say they don't sound the same at all and I've read the same about the 414 and 214.
Just saying.. ;)

Kmetal : Using the ksm44 and [="http://www.shure.com/americas/products/microphones/ksm/ksm32-embossed-single-diaphragm-microphone"]KSM32[/]="http://www.shure.co…"]KSM32[/] myself, I must say they don't sound the same at all and I've read the same about the [[url=http://="http://www.akg.com/…"]414[/]="http://www.akg.com/…"]414[/] and 214.
Just saying.. ;)

Yeah it doesn't make sense to buy one model of something to sound like another? Wouldn't they be the same if they sounded the same lol? I only heard the 214 once in person on a guitar stack, and thought it was fine but I dunno enough of it to say how similar it in a lot of circumstances. That's why I'd just stick w the 414, just tried and true. Even the difference between the studios uls and my Xls is noticeable. The Xls definately has more top and air, the uls is more rounded. They have different switches and pickup patterns too.

I've only used the ksm 32s, so dunno how they compare, but I wouldn't doubt for a second they sounded different. I love when gear and recordings in general have like that "real thing" going on, like when someone picks up and instruments and just kills, ya know. It's like.. Ok,.. I get it I want more! Once in a while.

That's kinda why the tlm 102 is so cool cuz it's not like a rip off, or like a nueman jr, it's just like a cool mic to have around. Worth trying for sure.

I've used many different 414's over the years, and while I love my EB's, (I have two with the original C-12 brass capsules) there's nothing at all "wrong" with later versions.

Kyle is correct in that some of these later models are a bit brighter (or darker as the case may be) "out of the box", but that's just their inherent characteristic when used flat.

I've been able to add a little EQ - along with a nice pre - and have been able to get all of them to sound great on the source I was miking at the time.

I think the EB's - and those models that came before them - like the 414-Comb and the C-12A - are sought after mostly because of their vintage stigma, and their collect-ability.

That's not to say that these models don't sound great, because they do, but I don't believe that newer models - P48, ULS, B-XL - sound bad in comparison. A little different, perhaps, but I've never worked with a 414 that didn't sound great. You just have to use a good pre, and sculpt the EQ around the source. And let's face it, you'll pretty much have to do that with any mic, regardless of make and model.

As an example, I had the opportunity - many years ago - to work a session at a studio in Youngstown, OH, which had 2 Telefunken ELA M-250's, and yes, they were absolutely gorgeous sounding mics - but... we still used EQ while recording a vocalist - and later, a horn section. ;)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As a final thought, for those who may be considering a vintage mic, you need to be very careful when looking at a vintage 414 - or, any vintage mic for that matter.
Over time - and depending on how they were treated by the past owner(s) - you can run into issues where the tension on the diaphragm has loosened or sagged, and unless you can find a vintage mic repair service, you're hosed, if this has happened. You can also run into used models that have been exposed to moisture, smoke, etc.

I've babied mine to the point of obsession (I haven't yet built a shrine but it's not a bad idea LOL) but regardless, time itself can be the biggest enemy to these vintage models, no matter how careful you are.
Be careful, is all I'm sayin'. ;)

FWIW

d/

You guys sure must know how to stretch a $300 budget. Some very impressive 'groupon-ing' going on apparently. My hat is off to ya.