Doug,
I would not spend that much on a 2" machine. $6K max and if you look around good machines can be had for even less. They are not much in demand these days. Be sure to have a good tech check the machine out thoroughly. It will be money well spent. I also would not get an MX-80. Way too much maintenance and transport problems. I recommend a MCI JH24. Be sure to get the MCI version and not a SONY JH24. The Sony's have surface mount electronics and are much more difficult to repair. The MCIs have through the card mounting of the components and are much easier to fix in the field. MCIs have much better bass response than any of the Otaris also. They run a close second to Ampex machines in quality. BTW, I have a 16 track MCI headstack in VGC I want to sell. PM me if you are interested. Kurt

i was under the impression that the mci machines add too much 'color'... I'll look into it further as i have an mci jh24 on my 'possibles' list (it's goin for around $4.8k ish)

btw, do you know of a site or other resource that lists a number of records made on/with each of the different types of machines? that would be a kinda cool reference.

thanks again,
doug

Hi Doug

Kurt is right, the MCI JH24 is a hell of a machine, great for rock and pop music, although I've heard a recording of a big band from an MCI that sounded awesome.

If memory serves me well there can be some problems with the wiring, the Molex pins or something like that. And you have to keep the power supply clean. I also have read something about tape speed problems.

There has been some bashing on the Otari MX80 machine, and in fact Kurt has a point about the transport problems. But these problems are caused because the machine can run very hot when it's in a poor ventilated place.

About the maintenance problems I disagree (sorry Kurt). I have the machine some six years now and still am very happy with it. It needs little care and the heat problem is easely solved with a small fan in the back of the machine. The sound is quite good and it punches like no other machine. The way it handles tape is great.

It's not a Studer 827 but hey, that costs five times as much.

Hope it helps, Han

In my opinion, both the MCI and the Otari MX-80 machines sound awful.
An MTR-90 is a MUCH better choice.

Originally posted by phuzzy_lumpkin:
i was under the impression that the mci machines add too much 'color'... I'll look into it further as i have an mci jh24 on my 'possibles' list (it's goin for around $4.8k ish)

btw, do you know of a site or other resource that lists a number of records made on/with each of the different types of machines? that would be a kinda cool reference.

thanks again,
doug

doug,
All of the records that came out of Criteria Studios in Miami, in the '70 were done on MCI gear. KC & The Sunshine Band, Eric Clapton, The Eagles.. That's the MCI sound.

MCI’s have been reported to have better bass response than any of the OTARI machines and are reasonably easy to maintain. wwittman is correct that the OTARI MTR-90 is a great machine. They are a world standard and I have never heard any complaints about keeping them going. It would be a hard machine to beat but I would have to disagree about the sound of the MCI's. I had one for quite a while and I think it sounded wonderful. I would take it over any OTARI any day. But to each his own. Some like marmalade and some like apricot pineapple jam. It's all very subjective. Han is in a position of being able to perform maintenance himself so I would say his opinion of the MX-80 might be just a bit slanted on that point.

Han, is the MX-80 a PLL transport? I have heard that they are much like the Ampex machines in that the tape speed varies at different positions of the reel. It’s not so much of an issue unless you want to edit different parts of a tape. But really, who edits 2” tape these days? With the Ampex machines this problem was usually solved by using a Time Lynx to synchronize the tape speed.

Han, is the MX-80 a PLL transport?

Kurt, I don't know. I'm not in the studio right now, I'll look in the manual tomorrow.

I know guys who say the MTR sucks, some guys say analog is a disease. We all feel the need to defend our gear every now and then, which is nonsence.

Some guys have very strong opinions and make heavy statements about certain pieces of gear.

I only trust what I hear and I don't believe smalltalk and nice advers.

I have this MX80 and it serves me very well. Aligning is a piece of cake and it is very stable.
I've made a couple of fans in the backside and it never had any speed problem after I did that.

I prefer it at 15 ips though.

Some people bash the machine, but never have worked with it for a long time.

I know of a nice JH24 machine in the Netherlands and probably will buy it.

I'm also "hunting" a Studer 827 machine.

Peace, Han

that thread on gearslutz is really great... i'm deffinately off the MX-80 and still not sold on the jh24... i just found an A80 MK2.5(?) here in austin that i may be able to get my hands on for around $7k... i can't imagine buying a studer being the 'wrong' choice... but, if i can't get that one, i think i'm gonna try to find an MTR-90. Thanks for all the info and i'll keep you posted as to what i finally get.

Han,
I myself prefered to run the mulititrack at 15ips and then run the 2 track at 30. I thought it sounded wonderful. It seemed to keep hiss build up to a minimum and I never felt the need for NR. I had an automated board also, so when there wasn't anything on a track, the channel just went mute in the mix. I did some great albums on that system. I would still have it if I knew how to work on it. But I wanted to move to Oregon from SF Bay Area and I didn't think there would be any techs up here to help me maintain it. So I sold the tape machines and the console and went to DAW. I never looked back.

If you end up with that JH24, keep in mind I have a 16 track headstack for it that I want to get rid of. Kurt :tu:

Originally posted by phuzzy_lumpkin:
i just found an A80 MK2.5(?) here in austin that i may be able to get my hands on for around $7k... i can't imagine buying a studer being the 'wrong' choice...

The Studer A80 is a hard machine to get parts for. A lot of maintenance too. The OTARI MTR-90 would be a better choice. The Studer is a great soundoing machine but the upkeep will kill you. The 80's are the older ones and that price is out of the question in my opinion.. Kurt

Doug, if you go for the MTR, make sure it's an MTR90 series two!

Edit: Oh, and look carefully for headwear, heads are expensive!

Kurt, that JH24 machine is not far away in a dusty corner doing nothing. I mailed the guy and he's thinking of selling it.

I bought 50 reels of used tape from that guy that were recorded on this MCI machine and some sound wonderful.

The problem with 2" machines is you must have a current one I suppose. A friend of me who's an instrument maker can make every part, so I don't have much problems. He can even make pinch rollers! :D

Peace, Han

well... there are going to be issues with whatever machine i get because it's just so subjective. all i want to do is get more business into my studio and i have had a lot of people say the old, "i'd cut all my stuff here if you had an analog machine" (the room used to be a church and sounds really good... huge drums). in the end, this is a helluva fun business we are in and being able to go to boards like this and get all kinds of useful info from you guys is part of what makes it so.

groove,
dug

Funny thing is.. when I had my 2" analog and large format console, I had people saying "I'd cut all my stuff here if you had a DAW."

People will always have a reason not to be working in any room. It mostly comes down to it's not free. This is a tough business to be in. Especially nowadays with everyone having a pretty good system in a spare bedroom that can do almost anything that can be done in a big studio. There are threads all over the place about how all the large rooms are closing down. Even in Nashville, which has been a real hold out for the studio business, artists are beginning to build their own personal studios. There is a good article on Steve Wariner’s new studio in this months EQ’s feature, “Room With A VU”. I think we are seeing the end of the commercial studio as we know it. The only rooms that will be left will be the ones that do scoring dates and can accommodate orchestral sessions and those will be far and few between. The times, they are a-changin’….

agreed... but, i'm lucky in that i CAN accomodate scoring sessions and i do have a DAW (HD24 to help speed initial tracking then into DP on dual 800 g4)... besides, at least here in austin, people are willing to pay (albeit not much, heh) to get the band out of the bedroom and feel 'professional' by actually paying someone else to record them. hell, i don't wanna get rich (good thing, eh?) but i don't wanna have to have a 'day job' again, either. it also seems a little better now than it did 2 years ago... hell, i had to go work at GC to pay bills for a little while... now THAT sucked.

You are so right about that Kurt! Yesterday a couple of my son's friends were rehearsing in my studio and they had brought a Roland VS with them.

They borrowed a D12, an M201 and two 441's for the drumkit and a couple of 421's for guitar and bass plus they had their own 58 for vocals.

Guess what? It sounded pretty decent, although the owner of this VS asked me: where do you use this "solo" for? :)

This weekend I'm going to record a bigband, mainly because a bigband doesn't fit in the bathroom?

I'm afraid the end of many commercial studio's is near.

Originally posted by phuzzy_lumpkin:
agreed... but, i'm lucky in that i CAN accomodate scoring sessions and i do have a DAW (HD24 to help speed initial tracking then into DP on dual 800 g4)... besides, at least here in austin, people are willing to pay (albeit not much, heh) to get the band out of the bedroom and feel 'professional' by actually paying someone else to record them. hell, i don't wanna get rich (good thing, eh?) but i don't wanna have to have a 'day job' again, either. it also seems a little better now than it did 2 years ago... hell, i had to go work at GC to pay bills for a little while... now THAT sucked.

Just keep in mind that with a 2" tape machine you can be looking at least a three or four hundred dollars every two or three months for repair and maintenance. I spent 5k in 4 years on my machines and console. And that is if you get a machine that is in good shape. If you get a lemon, it can be much more. And are you getting scoring and orchestral dates now? If not, there is no reason to expect that you will in the future. There is more to it than having a large room. Do you have forty sets of headphones and feeds to drive them? Do you have rest room facilities and accommodations for 50 + people at one time? If you are just getting by right now, getting a 2" machine is not going to make things better, believe me it will just be even harder with the associated costs. Trust me, I have been there... Kurt

hmmm... well, yes i have done small ensemble stuff (string quartet, woodwind trio, 20+ member choirs, etc.) but mostly as arrangements for rock/pop songs, although my business partner did record the Tosca/Glover Gill/GloverTango stuff for Richard Linklater's "A Waking Life" (but that was done at Glover Gill's house). the point was only that i CAN if i have the opportunity. but ultimately, what i've gotten from this thread is that the otari MTR-90 Series 2(+) is the best machine for me... probably

a fairly cajun blackened doug

lumpkin,
I am glad you got what you needed. I wish you good luck in your venture. I am just playing devils advocate for you. Usually if someone is as settled in the decision to do something as you seem to be, things work out. Where there's a will, there's a way. :tu: Kurt

"Just keep in mind that with a 2" tape machine you can be looking at least a three or four hundred dollars every two or three months for repair and maintenance. I spent 5k in 4 years on my machines and console. And that is if you get a machine that is in good shape. If you get a lemon, it can be much more."

Kurt, with all respect, but is that so? If the answer is yes, I guess I must be very lucky with the MX80 because it has cost me nothing in the six years I have it.

I fire it up in the morning and it always works like a charm. And still some people say it's a bad machine.

I know a MTR 90 MK2 machine in Belgium that's almost like new, very few hours and it's for sale.

Mmmmmmm.........

Han, is the MX-80 a PLL transport?

Kurt, the manual says: Servo controlled quartz PLL direct drive DC motor.
You know the MX has a capstan and pinch roller, the MTR hasn't.

Peace, han

Han,
Thanks, That settles the question regarding different speeds at different point in the reel. With PLL it should be constant throughout the whole reel. It must be just the 5050's that have this problem... Kurt

I happen to have a MTR90 Mk2 16 track 2 inch :) a few years ago we rebuilt put in new tension springs, guides and rollers also rebuilt the powersupply with fresh caps. The machine runs like a charm.

I will be moving to Austin in the nxt 6 months or so. I may be convinced to sell it once I get down there :)

yeah scenaria, it is tough... but we figure, what the hell ;) plus, we record ourselves too. heh, i've got a line on an mtr-90mkII with remote (no autolocator) in hollywood for $3.5k. that seems like a helluva deal... i know the heads need relapping... what should i be wary of at that low price?

dug

certainly make sure the heads havent already been relapped. If so the odds of a second relapping would be tough. I would ask for the head stack to be sent into JRF and have them do a report on them, that'll give you a good idea as to what you have there. If they wont send em in for a report then unless you could personaly inspect it I wouldnt go anywhere near it.

Also check your tape path for linearity.....make sure there isnt alot of movement verticaly as the tape travels over the heads.

Ask how many hours are on the machine overall.

Headstacks can be very expensive making even the best of deals for a machine hell :)

overall though...if there is some life left on the heads and the machine is in good physical condiition thats a good price.

Remember they are heavy and can run anywhere from $300-$650 for shipping. also crate it! (another $200)

make sure it comes with the extender card and the service manuals. Trust me....you will need them, if you dont have them you'll regret it.

Replace all the lamps in the meter bridge with high intensity LED's :)

and your set

thanks scenaria, i hadn't asked about manuals :D

The one at the rental house might be in better shape...Think about it.....how often did they rent out a 600 pound machine? I would see how many hours are on that one too.

interesting... will do. :tu: thanks

Originally posted by Han:
Kurt, that JH24 machine is not far away in a dusty corner doing nothing. I mailed the guy and he's thinking of selling it.

I bought 50 reels of used tape from that guy that were recorded on this MCI machine and some sound wonderful.

The problem with 2" machines is you must have a current one I suppose. A friend of me who's an instrument maker can make every part, so I don't have much problems. He can even make pinch rollers! :D Peace, Han

Han, I saw in the latest issue of "Mix" the other day that the founder of MCI, "Jeep" Harned recently passed away at age 73. I pulled these facts from the obituary “Mix” published.

Grover C. “Jeep” Harned earned a Bachelors Degree at MSU and served a stint in the Army as an electronics instructor. He started in the music business in 1955, when he opened a hi fi store, Music Center, Inc. Mack Enerman (of Criteria Studios) was having a lot of problems with his equipment in his then new recording facility and soon he and Harned were working together getting the studios 16X3 mixing desk and 3 track tape recorders in order. Eventually Criteria would use MCI recorders and consoles exclusively. In 1965 “Jeep” Harned started MCI Inc. making replacement solid state Ampex 350 tape machines and soon after, MCI built the electronics for the first ever 24 track recorder from an Ampex 300 that Tom Hidely had modified to handle 2” tape. We all know what that led to. In 1971, MCI released it own line of multitracks and a year later came up with the first auto locater. MCI the began manufacturing a production console and soon after, ready made pro studio mixers from many companies were on the market. In conjunction with David Harrison, in 1972 MCI introduced the first inline console design, the JH400. This was followed by the JH500 and JH600 console series. I myself owned a JH600 for several years and it was a wonderful console.. very warm and functional. If I could have been able to maintain it myself and if I had room for it in my home studio, I would have never sold it. It was truly one of the nicest sounding consoles I have ever used. I think MCI is one of the audio communities best kept secrets. Jeep” Harned sold MCI to Sony in 1982 to retire. He was a pioneer in the audio business and will be remembered as an innovator of audio gear who introduced a series of firsts of what now have become standards in the pro audio community.

What do you guys think of the soundcraft 2"? I know it's the cheapest thing around and probably the worst puncher ever seen, but with all the upgrades and PLL transport it's been pretty reliable for me. At least in the UK there's many around as well, so by now it's quite feasible to buy one just for spares. A friend had to sell his for just £600, even though it was in great shape and had had regular service! Soundcraft still service and align them as well, so they're still a good cheap bet at least in the UK.

Thanks for any opinions!

Bjorn

I don't find upkeep on a good 2" machine to be nearly that expensive.
$500 a year seems more like it.
That's MTR-90's OR A-80's.
I also don;t think the A-80 is a problem to find "aprts" for. There are lots of them out there (probably more than any other Studer model)
Yes, it;s the "older" version relative to the 820/827's. But it's got that bullet-proof transport. Nothing handles tape better than a Studer.
The A80 does not sound up to the standard of the A-800 (nothing DOES, except the ultra-rare ATR-124) but it or the MTR-90 are about the next best thing.

Lots of records were made on equpiment that didn't sound great. it was still possible to turn out good records. I made lots of records on MCI machines too. But I still heard the difference when I worked on better sounding machines.
I just wouldn't CHOOSE one if given the choice.

I second the A-80 vote. It is a great transport. Plus, if you have the cash, you can remove the three screws and pop in an 8-track stack. This machine is very easy on tape.

Otari's are not so easy on tape. If you want an MTR90, I know where quite a few are for under $10k. They sound like crap in my opinion. Of course, I didn't like 80's music either.

There are many Studers out there for $10-20k in various stages of use. Parts are plentiful. Before Studer went belly up in the tape machine market, the wharehouse inventory was sold to a Studer tech in Nashville.

I have a few Studer narrow and wide body 8 tracks too, If anybody wants one, step up. They both have less that 600 hours.

Originally posted by Kurt Foster:
Doug,
I recommend a MCI JH24. Be sure to get the MCI version and not a SONY JH24. The Sony's have surface mount electronics and are much more difficult to repair. The MCIs have through the card mounting of the components and are much easier to fix in the field.

My '87 Sony badged MCI has no surface mount electronics what so ever, in fact these are the best sounding and most reliable series of JH24 ever made. I've made some modifications to mine taking advantage of some newer opamp designs w/low dc offsets and better capacitors in the signal path.

If you happen to be talking about the Sony redesigned 2-inch that I think was called an "APR" or something similar then all bets are off.

Mark

Yes that is what I was speaking of.. Both the JH24 and the JH636 console I had were built by Sony.. IMO wonderful sound! But as I said, the later versions have surface mount technology. It's still a good design, but much more difficult to repair in the field. The boards usually have to be returned to a shop where they have jigs to replace components (which is necessary more that one would care to think).

I have a 16 track headstack that is in almost new condition for the JH-16/24 machines that I would like to sell if anyone is interested. Kurt