Hey. everything has its time and place. For a newbie starting out, behringer might just be the gnat's ass. After a while you outgrow it, if you are serious about your art. A few pieces of Behringer gear are useful in an upgraded studio. The headphone amp comes to mind, also the control surface. they do just about everything the more expensive gear does, for a lot less. Also the ADA 8000 is surprinsingly clean if you need an xtra 8 inputs via adat. i don't have one but I have heard it and would not hesitate to get one if I needed an xtra 8 tracks via adat on a pinch.

A couple of pieces that are pretty terrible and I have heard also come to mind- forget the B1 mic- buy the b1 from sp instead. Also their pod kcnock off is not very good and most of their preamps suck. Their mixers are usually really noisy and dull sounding. I know, I bought one for sound reinforcement when we had a live stage on weekends in my old studio. Should have gotten an used mackie instead, but it was hard to resist 16 ch new for 200+ bucs... live and learn.
I also heard their bass amp and the tone sucks- but hey, $300 for 100 watts is hard to resist for people on a budget and many will fall for it.

All and all, like I said, a lot of this gear is useful for newbs starting out- we all gotta go through our growing pains. Of course you are better off saving your money and getting quality gear but it is hard to wait. I know.

I don't think anyone wants you to stop commenting, every opinion counts, just refrase it and understand that most people asking about Behringer, are obviously not experienced for example, instaed of

Behringer Suck

or

All Behringer is crap

how about

If you feel serious and can wait you really should save up and get a (instert product here), it has better (mic pre's, well more than likely), and will be better for you as you record/play live in the future.

I just don't like people being kind of a jerk about it, I don't think Behringer stuff is great, but I do think it has a place, on the low rung of equipment, well some of it, they make some stuff that can be considered middle of the road, but I don't think they make anything that can be scientifally considered AWESOME!!!! (notice the four, yes FOUR exclimation marks, that is the sign of great gear, just FYI)

I also heard their bass amp and the tone sucks

I don't know about the amps, never WANT to even consider owning one, but acording to my Bro, who is a damn good bass player, they have some very cool Bass cabs, he is planning on getting one

crispytheone88 wrote: I don't think anyone wants you to stop commenting, every opinion counts, just refrase it and understand that most people asking about Behringer, are obviously not experienced for example, instaed of

Behringer Suck

or

All Behringer is crap

In my defense, I don't believe I ever just said Behringer suck without stating why, or said all Behringer is crap. However, that is neither here nor there.... point taken.

No you didn't

:D

I do agree with btw, if you can afford it, it is better to buy something that you can use long term

This should show you guys that owning Behringer gear is not about starting out. This is a studio of a guy I met while working in Branson....Check out his gear and client list and tell me........if It makes any difference what equiptment one has.

http://www.nothm.com/equipframe.htm

Even Big studios with BIG clentel have behringer in their racks.

ITS NOT ABOUT the gear. Let the Elitists keep up with each other Jonesing for the lastest "pre amp of the day."You guys with smaller budjets and common sense work with what you have . There is no reason one cannot make a great sounding CD project with any of todays gear, regardless of price if you have an ear.

All the hi dollar gear studios going out of business is a testament to that.

Clients dont buy gear.....they buy ears.......

You guys with Behringer anything.....Don't fret and don't allow anyone to tell you its junk. It has a purpose and serves it well enough.

Only those who need to impress show off the high dollar crap. Pre amps are one of the most over rated pieces of gear in a studio. I d rather spend the money on a decent set of monitors.

kingfrog wrote: This should show you guys that owning Behringer gear is not about starting out. This is a studio of a guy I met while working in Branson....Check out his gear and client list and tell me........if It makes any difference what equiptment one has.

http://www.nothm.com/equipframe.htm

Even Big studios with BIG clentel have behringer in their racks.

ITS NOT ABOUT the gear. Let the Elitists keep up with each other Jonesing for the lastest "pre amp of the day."You guys with smaller budjets and common sense work with what you have . There is no reason one cannot make a great sounding CD project with any of todays gear, regardless of price if you have an ear.

All the hi dollar gear studios going out of business is a testament to that.

Clients dont buy gear.....they buy ears.......

You guys with Behringer anything.....Don't fret and don't allow anyone to tell you its junk. It has a purpose and serves it well enough.

Only those who need to impress show off the high dollar crap. Pre amps are one of the most over rated pieces of gear in a studio. I d rather spend the money on a decent set of monitors.

Your argument is not very convincing.

This guy for one has a very LARGE list of excellent recording equipment, and a total of 2 Behringer products. Both of which I bet he hardly uses, but I could be wrong. 99% of his gear is very good and not budget in the least.. so I would have to say his experience coupled with his gear is making his sound. One compresser and a "de-noiser" isn't going to make or break his quality.

Also, where are the so called BIG cliental? I see a list of mp3s on the site but I haven't heard of any of the artists... maybe I'm just not in the loop which could very well be. I'm not trying to be an ass, just curious that's all.

You must be a younger guy if you don't know those names. Thats fair. But realizie what you have. The ability to record with gear whos quality would have cost much more 15 years ago and way more 25 years ago. Even the Behringer stuff of that quality wuld have been very expensive. Thats the problem. You guys are hung up on names ans flavor of the day rather then what can you do with what you have.

The point is he is not embarrased to include those listings (as Im sure you would be) as well as the DBX compressors. Many on these boards are afraid to claim they have Behringer gear and thats wrong. Its not that bad. Even by todays standards and especially the bang for the buck factor.

Garys clients are or have been MAJOR acts in country music. Many who have or had there own theaters. Acts that can afford to go anywhere including the Pro Tools based more modern facilities in Branson.

Its not about the gear. IN his case he does have some nice gear but its not the end all in any category.

I remember when digital was brand new. Analog was noisy and dull.........everybody had to have digital this and digital that. Even though the converters by todays standards were terrible. Then all of a sudden the "warm" analog sound everyone wanted to get away from was again king and thus tubes became all the rage and retro equiptment.....Now they sell CDs containing antique and harsh 8 bit samples processed through $2000 pre amps....Funny stuff.

Its like the flavor of the day.....I remember in the 70's when tubes used to be a pain in the ass...and solid state was the savior...Not that long ago....now everybody wants tube this and that.....Before my time guys wore short waxed hair......now short moosed hair is back......

Nothing is new....may as well just make music and not worry about brand . Its all pretty good especially when considering the content of todays CD as well as the end devices many are playing back on.

Yeah I am younger and I don't listen to Country music so that would do it. :)

Just curious since you seem to have been around... what do you like better for sound? New digital equipment, or vintage analog equipment?

Tom

I know Behringer Compressor and some of the other signal processors they make can be quite good, and better than some more expensive models, so this does not suprise me, I had a guy who was a audiophile nut, but was smart enough not to care about brand name, just performance, he has a Behringer Feedback destroyer, and some other stuff.

Like I said, some they do make some pretty good stuff

crispytheone88 wrote: I know Behringer Compressor and some of the other signal processors they make can be quite good, and better than some more expensive models, so this does not suprise me, I had a guy who was a audiophile nut, but was smart enough not to care about brand name, just performance, he has a Behringer Feedback destroyer, and some other stuff.

Like I said, some they do make some pretty good stuff

Of that I have no doubt, I just haven't had the pleasure of using one of those boxes yet.

ust curious since you seem to have been around... what do you like better for sound? New digital equipment, or vintage analog equipment?

Old stuff to me is like having a 1969 Corvette. Nice to look at and the wow factor and all. But it's expensive, has none of todays creature comforts, drives like crap and is maintinance intensive. The bang is the wow factor not the technology. And with today's software you can create any sound from any sound....especially if you are going backwards in fidelity from digital to analog.

I prefer gear that gives me what I want from it, without regard to its nameplate or age. I have and really like the Joe Meek VCQ1 pre Amp.It is the end all for me. I am satisfied and it does well enough for my mics which consist of an AKG 414 and Rode NT2..( I prefer the Rode) There is not too much in the studio that can be said of.....end all. But you cant keep waiting for the next bus. Ya got to get on and go somewhere on the bus thats stopped.

I used to do that years ago. Never put a CD together because I was always waiting for some new module or gear to come out. So Id record and stash songs. Then when I finally after 15 years have the opportunity to sell my music in venues I went back and made a compilation of 15 years worth of recordings from various apartments and stuio setups I had over the years and mastered them to sound as close to each other as possibles and sold them!!!
I was smart enough to put the lastest material first, LOL

Although I put in the liner notes the dates the music was recorded
No one ever came to me and said there was technical issues. And there were indeed. Some songs were recorded on a Tascamm 244 some on my current digital set up..... LOL.

People are not that hip to recording technique. They listen to the song as a whole not with "engine EAR"as I call other self producers....and studio rats..... I learned a lot from that experience I had wished I knew years ago.....lol. I could have saved a bundle....But we live we learn.

Today is as good as its gonna get though. (64bit 244khz recordings anybody? not me......)

Our human ears a very limited in what we can hear or not hear compared to the specs and availability of even the some of the cheapest audio equiptment today on both sides of the fence....and you can take that to the bank.

There has to be a point at which the music is more important, unless you are just into the producing/engineering part. Then your screwed because it NEVER ends. Always something new and "better"?? .. I also have an ART VLA. Compressor I dont use much but kept anyway. I happen to like optical compression over VCA as you can see.

I prefer the digital stuff over all. Becasue as I said above I can always degrade a perfect digital signal to a lesser fidelity analog signal using a variety of SW and boxes. Iin a home enviornment where you can easily have electrical ground issues the less cables the better.

. In fact when I get off this job and get back to Vegas in May, Im putting all my rack gear up on Ebay and going completely digital except for the Meek. The software efx are fantastic nowadays and theres no need for all the rack stuff in my case anymore. Just a couple pre amps and a good converter with decent pre amps will do fine.

I only use the rack stuff for monitoring anymore through a Mackie 24-4 which is also going away. Thinking about buying the Tascam 1884 to replace a lot of the analog stuff.

[/url]

Behringer Amps

Having just bought my first piece of Behringer gear I have had no dealings with them before BUT!!! I just bough the Vampire guitar amp and I"ve got to say that for 500 dollars where can you buy a 412 cabinet with Jenson speakers,120 watts or 60/60 stereo with over 120 effects that you can ether mike or use xlr cables stright to your mixer, IN STEREO ? And besides all that, it sounds great.
The only thing I"ve found I don"t like about it is the reverb is a little weak, no big deal.
As for their other equipment, I can"t say but for anyone wanting a muti-function amp for stuido work check this amp out. I belive you will be very happy with it"s proformance,and so will your wallet.

Brock.

And thats what Behringer has always and still does best across the board. Seemingly give you more for way less. If your happy with it all the better.

in this world people go by names and not results!

i have behringer products and am happy with it!
for instance i have the digital mixer with the adat card! i use it in my studio has a control surface and if i want to record something live i can use it for my motu!!! why spend tones of money for a controler when the ddx3216 gives me the same and more?
my first mixer was a behringer 2004a and when i need i can take it on the road without the big problem of breaking it or something...

like i said people go by names and not by products! i'd go any day for the behringer mic than the akg c1000s and i have an akg d112 and a c414 tlII!

i have behringer products and am happy with it!

That is the key my friend no matter what you spend or do not spend. when you are not unhappy with it for any reason, perhaps you heard something mmore expensive and better....or less expensive, you then can go in that direction.

NObosy who spent $5000 for a mic or pre amp is going to respect your choices. Let them play in their guilded sandboxes and you play in yours.

Its all about the music and the ability to put that on your own musical pallate with what ever brushes and paint colors and you you choose.

yeah but some equipment does sound better than other equipment and a lotta behringer equipment is not so hot- the pod knock off is not so hot, some of the mixers are real noisy, the B1 I don't like, the 60 watt bass amp is dull, some of their dedicated pres are below par- and I've heard these for myself. some of the stuff I've heard and its ok is the ada 8000,
the feedback destroyer and Im sure there are others i can't think of right now. I hear their control surfaces are a great deal for a couple of hundred apiece

yeah but some equipment does sound better than other equipment and a lotta behringer equipment is not so hot- the pod knock off is not so hot, some of the mixers are real noisy, the B1 I don't like, the 60 watt bass amp is dull, some of their dedicated pres are below par- and I've heard these for myself. some of the stuff I've heard and its ok is the ada 8000,
the feedback destroyer and Im sure there are others i can't think of right now. I hear their control surfaces are a great deal for a couple of hundred apiece

I suppose its a good thing many Behringer gear owners do not have your ear. Audio is very subjective as we all know. One mans trash is another's treasure.

If one never had or could afford a good steak, hamburger will still rid the hunger paings. And that is really all many are trying to do within their budgets..........put their music on a sharable medium.

There are many ways and chioces to do just that for everone no matter what their financial means are. Thank goodness there are companies like Behringer who can provide that for many who otherwise who would have to wait for the finances. Alesis did it in my day. They were bashed then as well. Still are in many circles.

Many will say wait and save up. I say do it now if you can with whatever is available within your means and replace the gear when you feel it no longer suits your own needs...not the needs of those who are further along on the gear front.

People with great gear are not going to like your recordings...so be it. You do not need their apporval. ...Just make music and enjoy the recording process with what you can afford at the moment.

" Many will say wait and save up. I say do it now if you can with whatever is available within your means and replace the gear when you feel it no longer suits your own needs
...not the needs of those who are further along on the gear front.

That sounds like something from someone who has plenty of cash to waste ... or someone who is a schll for the manufacturers who make that kind of disposable crap. Which (if either) are you kingfrog? Do you work for a dealer or equipment manufacturer? Because a lot of your posts sound like you might.

This line of thought is exactly what I am so opposed to when it comes to cheap gear. If what you want is some inexpensive boys toys, by all means the low end is the place to look.

If you are striving to have and be the the best, don't waste your money on things that are not what you want. Don't settle. Your art deserves better IMO.

.... Let them play in their guilded sandboxes and you play in yours. "

That again, sounds to me like envy and jealousy.

"They're rich and I'm not! Lousy bastards! wahhh!"

It seems to me that to many, it's acceptable to rag on or ream out people who are perceived as being more fortunate than others, while at the same time those who cry "poor" all the time are to be treated with kid gloves ....

Again I submit that until any of us have walked in the other persons shoes, we have no idea what they have done to get what they have. Just because someone has made a choice to have some good gear, doesn't mean they live in a "guilded sandbox". If that kind of disdane is acceptable, then why wouldn't having disdane for people who aren't "willing to spend $2000 on a mic pre" (as I have been accused of in the past) be ok too? Is it ok to say that anyone who isn't willing to invest in high end gear, perhaps has no business recording? If not, the the opposit should apply. I personally think it's a load of sour grapes.

Kurt I don't understand why you get so defensive when I encourage those with less means to be proud of the gear they can afford.Even if it is a toy by your lofty standards

First of all this is a HOME studio thread and as such many do not do this as a profession Just a hobby Many are not willing to wear 3 year old sneakers and drive 6 year old cars to purchase $2000 pre amps and $3000 monitors.

This quote from you explains it all......who is being snobbish and elitist here?

I submit that perhaps someone who isn't will to bear the expense of quality recording, shouldn't be recording in the first place or at the least, is not someone I would want to be involved with.

Those are your words. We all understand how you feel about those low lifes who cannot. or worse, choose not to buy the best gear with which to record. I SUBMIT its not a sin even though it flys in the face of your own self appointed higher sensabilities,

I do not work for a manufacturer of inexpensive gear nor am I poor and destitute. I actually am fortunate to be able to afford much much more than I have chosen to purchase.

Alas I suppose I am one of those who for the past 30 years " should not be recording." and someone who "you would not want to be involved with". (If that last statement don't reek of snobbery I don't know what does.)

I am neither jealous nor envious of you or anyone who feels the need to buy the flavor of the week. In some ways I pity those who do not feel they can have an acceptable outcome without spending a small fortune. It is they that are forever beholden to spend way more then they have to in order to enjoy the process and result. I do feel sorry for those who are addicted to specs and validation.

If I wanted to waste cash, contrary to your charge, I would be buying $2500 pre amps,compressors and $3000 mics. What you cannot seem to grasp is it is NOT a waste of money for those who want to do something NOW using budget gear rather then wait.

. Todays low end gear is just not that terrible.

I know it hurts when you spent thousands and thousands of dollars and some one else is getting the same exact pleasure and sense of accomplishment for much much less. But that is not their problem. When they throw the switch on their rack of Alesis, ART and/or Beheringer "boy toys" they are just as thrilled as you are flipping a switch on your Focusrite or Avalon. That really seems to annoy you.

Perhaps you are moderating the wrong section in the Forum...The Pro Recoding section is more appropiate for your expertise and you will be much less frustrated with people like me who are about the process rather then the "wow" from another self annointed engineer or producer

kingfrog wrote:
I know it hurts when you spent thousands and thousands of dollars and some one else is getting the same exact pleasure and sense of accomplishment for much much less. But that is not their problem. When they throw the switch on their rack of Alesis, ART and/or Beheringer "boy toys" they are just as thrilled as you are flipping a switch on your Focusrite or Avalon. That really seems to annoy you.

Perhaps you are moderating the wrong section in the Forum...The Pro Recoding section is more appropiate for your expertise and you will be much less frustrated with people like me who are about the process rather then the "wow" from another self annointed engineer or producer

That's just not the kind of attitude that we need around here. I don't care who you are, we are lucky to have a guy like Kurt available to answer questions that we have. He doesn't HAVE to do any of this, he's doing it because he wants to help. And Kurt is not the only one... there are tons of knowledgeable people on here that have their own opinions on gear and recording methods and I for one am I happy that this resource even exists. It's up to you whether or not you want to take their opinion to heart or not.

I still stand by my statement, and I'm not talking about their products any more. The people that search the forum for answers will find what they need to know about Behringer, and then... they can decide for themselves what to do.

First of all this is a HOME studio thread and as such many do not do this as a profession Just a hobby Many are not willing to wear 3 year old sneakers and drive 6 year old cars to purchase $2000 pre amps and $3000 monitors.

That's cool ... a simple Mackie or ART mini pre and a SP B1 will do ... to suggest that anything beyond that (until the threshold of real is realized) is an improvement, is IMO marketing hype. It is that which I object to. I'm not willing to let these "hobbyists" take away my livelihood by undercutting me with cheap gear in a home studio with essentially no overhead, without a fight. I will continue to point out I can deliver better quality than they can any chance I get. I will continue to point out that "rack crap" cannot deliver the same quality as professional equipment. .

We all understand how you feel about those low lifes who cannot. or worse, choose not to buy the best gear with which to record.

I never called anyone a "low life". Those are your words ... I would neve think of anyone that way. Please do not project your predjudces upon me. I did not even insinuate it as you suggest. I said I choose to work with people who have dedication and passion for their art. To exercise discretion, to have discriminating taste is precisely what being a recordist and producer is all about. I also submit that a person with discriminating taste is the kind of person that many people want to ask opinions of. What's the point of asking questions of someone who is obviously easily placated?

I do not work for a manufacturer of inexpensive gear

I didn't ask that. I asked if you worked for a dealer or manufacturer. Are you employed in the retail or audio equipment manufacturing industry? Expensive or cheap wasn't the question ... nice dodge though!

I am neither jealous nor envious of you or anyone who feels the need to buy the flavor of the week.

Neither am I. Actually most the high end gear I use is pretty vintage, or at the least several years old. The exception is my pre amp collection, which I have put together in the past 3 years since I sold off my MCI console and 2" multi track and moved into DAW. That's where the cost savings come into play. Once you get good gear, there is no need to upgrade it all the time. It lasts and can be repaired in your home town by any competent tech, rather that having to be returned to the manufacturer, who in turn responds that it' s no longer in production and the sub assembly you need is no longer available.

If I wanted to waste cash, contrary to your charge, I would be buying $2500 pre amps, compressors and $3000 mics. What you cannot seem to grasp is it is NOT a waste of money for those who want to do something NOW using budget gear rather then wait.

I disagree. I think buying stuff that has no resale value, or that you will cash out (if you're lucky and can find a schmuck to buy it) within months or at best in a year or two, for less than half what is was bought for is a terrible waste. I have mics, pres and comps that I can get every cent I paid back out of if I wish, even after using them for years. In fact most of the stuff I have is worth more now, than when I bought it! How is that a waste?

IMO, it's kinder and more honest to give people a "heads up" on what it's really going to take to get to where they are trying to be. Perhaps the persone who really can't afford to spend a lot on a studio, may be prevented from throwing away a wad of cash to only discover they can do the same thing with a Mini Mac and Garage Band. If this means they can't record, the so be it. People who can't afford insurance, shouldn't drive or own a car either. I know it's not the same thing, but it's demonstrative of the logic. After all, we are not speaking of war, health, home, food, clothing or education issues here. We are discussing (for the most part) leisure time activities here (as you assert). Home recording equipment is a luxury item fer' cryin' out loud! To try to assert that recording is a "right" that we should all share equally, is silly. The attachment of the term "artistic endeavor" is where this all gets mucked up. The art for the most part, is in the performance. While recording is a technical art. I submit that doing it with sub standard tools, is more akin to a child playing with Lincoln Logs (amateur home studios), rather that a carpenter building a log vacation home (professional).

People listen to guys like you and then buy cheap equipment. Worst case, they wind up posting, "I should have listened to Kurt" or begin to ask how certain sounds and textures are attained, often citing recordings made in very large studios with top notch stuff. They are not happy when they are told that the $3000 they just spent equipping a home studio, was wasted and now they have to go out and spend another $10,000 on good speakers, room treatments, good mics and pres. I suspect that sometimes they feel that if they had known what they were getting into, they might not have made that leap.

Once again, I have no objection to the use of cheap gear if all they want to do is make recordings for their families and friends. A Soundblaster card and a Radio Shack mic will do that just fine. But the minute they start posting mp3's on the internet, that signifies (at least to me) their intention is to become a producer of product intended to be disseminated to the listening public.

Again you mention $2500 mic pres ... I don't own one mic pre that cost that much. There are some very good pres available for much less.. a single channel of Sebatron can be had for under $1000, there's the Brick which sells for under $350 .... As far as compressors go, the ones I have cost far less than $3000. My LA4's are worth probably $2K ... the Manley EL OP was about $2300 ... my vintage UREI 1178 was bought for $2100. I also have a Valley Dynamite (worth maybe $300) and a cheap DBX ($100). As far as comps and eqs go, I am far more forgiving. There's some pretty decent pieces out there that are very affordable. It's at the mic pres that the damage is done. The better the pre, the less damage ... that's it in a nut shell.

Todays low end gear is just not that terrible.

Some of it isn't. Some of it is. The same thing applies to some very expensive stuff too. The Focusrite Liquid Channel is a perfect example. Cost is not the factor. The construction is.

Esentially, you are right. Especially when it comes to recorders and processing. There's some pretty good stuff available at some very surprising prices. But good mic pres are still expensive to design and build. A lot of the expense is in the power supplies. Next, a product that is serviceable without being returned to the manufacturer for replacement of sub assemblies requires the use of point to point and through the hole assemblies instead of surface mount technologies and LSI chips. Good design calls for quality components that hold their values over long periods of time, dispite heavy use and thermal shocks. These things, do not come cheap.

I know it hurts when you spent thousands and thousands of dollars and some one else is getting the same exact pleasure and sense of accomplishment for much much less. But that is not their problem. When they throw the switch on their rack of Alesis, ART and/or Behringer "boy toys" they are just as thrilled as you are flipping a switch on your Focusrite or Avalon. That really seems to annoy you.

I seriously doubt that people get "the same exact pleasure and sense of accomplishment" as I do with my gear. If that were true, I wouldn't have a people who have set ups like a KORG D1600, coming to my place to record with better quality. Actually, I don't give a fat rats rump what other people use, so long as I am not forced to listen to the results and they are not taking work away from the professionals who are now seeing their carriers and livelihoods evaporating. That is a point of contention for me but is really OT.

I do object to manufacturers and dealers who elude to the idea that the cheap and mid level gear is in any way comparable to "real" gear. I see this a basically dishonest and marketing hype. If manufacturers and dealers want to get press and exposure for the junk they make, let them pay for it. I don't like the idea that they can send a "schill" into the BB forums and crate "a buzz on RO" as FMR called it. This has happened before, on RO and other BBs. I am very vigilant in trying to discourage these attempts. While I stop short of deleting these comments and threads, I do (and will continue to) respond to them, so that people at the least, hear the other side of the issues. If the dealers and manufacturers of "rack crap" don't like this, they can either buy RO or stop participating in threads.

Mic pres are where the recordist has only one chance to do it correctly. If you muck it up, there's no undoing it. Capturing full bass and keeping the phase issues at bay while preserving transients, requires a lot of volts. Cheap low volt power supplies do not cut it. No way around it. Manufacturers will try to say wall warts and cheesy power supplies will work fine but I don't believe it.

Perhaps you are moderating the wrong section in the Forum...The Pro Recoding section is more appropiate for your expertise and you will be much less frustrated with people like me who are about the process rather then the "wow" from another self annointed engineer or producer

Someone forgot to inform me that that it was your place to dismiss me like that. Actually, I am one of two site wide administrators (ie; moderators at large) for RO. I have edit capibilty site wide. I am also the Reviews Editor. But even if I were not a moderator at all I would still make the same comments in the same forums. The fact that I am a mod here has nothing to do with any discussion. It does not limit me to responding or posting in any forum. All I do as a moderator, is delete spam, watch for bad language and personal attacks and report problems with the server to the appropriate places.

When I post on the BB, I am the same as anyone else. The fact that I am a moderator has no bearing in any discussion (we do not have a "Don't argue with the mods" policy like many BBs do) nor does it add validity or credence to my opinions. I do not think of myself as a "site star" or anything like that. I do this because I see a system where mentoring and sharing of time tested knowledge is slipping away. I am trying to hand off as much of my knowledge as I can before I move off the mortal coil.

That's just not the kind of attitude that we need around here. I don't care who you are, we are lucky to have a guy like Kurt available to answer questions that we have. He doesn't HAVE to do any of this, he's doing it because he wants to help. And Kurt is not the only one... there are tons of knowledgeable people on here that have their own opinions on gear and recording methods and I for one am I happy that this resource even exists. It's up to you whether or not you want to take their opinion to heart or not.

I still stand by my statement, and I'm not talking about their products any more. The people that search the forum for answers will find what they need to know about Behringer, and then... they can decide for themselves what to do.

Perhaps not. I offer an alternate opinion base on 30 years of Home Studio recording and having access and opportunity to evaluate high end gear in friend's more professionally equipt studios.

It is my opinion people buy high end gear in many cases to legitimize thier studios for business purposes rather than actual use when they could get equal results with less. That in my personal opinion, is the actual "state" of the Art.

I am neither jealous, envious, nor to I hold in contempt those who have the need for the creme de la creme for whatever reasons. I can afford that gear and more and choose not to pay 300% more for 10% better sound.

I offer encouragement to those who feel invalidated by certain people because they choose not to make that leap of faith including myself. I see no issue with that and will defend that opinion ....yes even to a moderator who should do the same rather then insinuate those who buy budget gear should not be allowed to record or are people he would not want to associate himself with.......Thats just plain wrong, and I am not afraid to say it to anyone.

Thank goodness the people I knew over the years, and associate with now with the high end gear did not and do not have the same intolerance for more modest gear. I would have missed out on a lot of knowledge regarding process and some pleasant debate as well.

Kurt I am a professional entertainer who performs in the major showrooms in Las Vegas, Atlantic City and theaters in Branson, Myrtle Beach, and internationally.

I have worked and associate with established recording artists and professional engineers in LAs Vegas and Branson. Not one person has ever had the attitude someone should not record if they don't want to pay for top gear.

In my early days 1977-1981 I was a tour stagehand with IATSE. I am not a stranger to the audio experience. I do not represent or have any endordements from any maker of gear.

While recording is a technical art. I submit that doing it with sub standard tools, is more akin to a child playing with Lincoln Logs (amateur home studios), rather that a carpenter building a log vacation home (professional).

What you seem to dismiss are those thousands of "cihildren" who do not aspire to be "professional" by YOUR standard . They just want to play and yes make MP3s and perhaps even sell some music along the way.

They have the right and should have the encouragement to use those toys to make product to share and yes even sell......if there is a buyer. I am a professional entertainer not a professional engineer. I do sell time cheap to record in my home to those who cannot afford or do not choose the more expensive studios. They get what they pay for and I submit more. I have never had an unhappy customer. They do sell their product as do I.

If I was home all the time I would do it for more people. I am living my dream. I do not mind helping others live theirs...yes even with sub standard gear in an amatuer studio.

MAckie 24-4 Mixer
Joe Meek VCQ1 vocals
Rode NT2 mike
ART ProVLA
AARDVARK L6

This is an example of the gear I use to record my CD and others. I feel it is plenty good enough to make a saleable CD. No one who has more expensive gear will ever think the same...I accept that.

I was listening to a Cd I did for an artist about five years ago and though the arrangements and the playing was good, the recording was less than desirable by my standards today. i actually cringe when I listen to i, though like I said, the playing, the singing and the arrangements were very good.

The recording has a 'flatness' to it and it lacks something i will call 'body' and 'air' - this I can certainly attribute to the mics, pres and converters, as I am getting far better quality today with better tools. Though I certainly do have more experience now, I wasn't excatcly a green horn then either and the tools or lack of, do show in the results.

I offer encouragement to those who feel invalidated by certain people because they choose not to make that leap of faith including myself. I see no issue with that and will defend that opinion ....yes even to a moderator who should do the same rather then insinuate those who buy budget gear should not be allowed to record or are people he would not want to associate himself with.......Thats just plain wrong, and I am not afraid to say it to anyone.

First off again ... I never said,

those who buy budget gear should not be allowed to record or are people he would not want to associate himself with

.. so please drop it. Your repeating it endlessly, will not make it true.

I really don't need you to define my role as a moderator. If anyone feels invalidated by anything I say, that's something that they are reading into my comments. I never make it personal. It's all about the gear and the techniques as far as I am concerned. It has nothing to do with if a person is "worthy" or not.

Your constant hammering on this point even after I have answered the allegations, is nothing but dirty pool in which you are attempting inflame public opinion and paint me as some type of cruel, heartless, unfeeling villain.

The more you post to defend and enforce your position, the deeper you get. You do not offer anything of substance to the discussion, instead you only hurl innuendo and personal attacks, criticizing me personally instead of the points of argument. It is my experience that people only resort to those types of tactics when they really have nothing else to offer.

What you seem to dismiss are those thousands of "cihildren" who do not aspire to be "professional" by YOUR standard . They just want to play and yes make MP3s and perhaps even sell some music along the way.

The minute they start selling and promoting product in the public forum, they cross the threshold to professional. Everyone will say they "just want to record or play". That's the easy way to do it and fall on your face without feeling like you've failed. It takes guts to stand up and declare, "I am a pro and this is what I do for a living". If people want to sit on the fence, fine. But don't snivel when others who have made the commitment "are dismissive" of these "thousands".

Xavier .... Good points! Nice to have you on board on this one!

First off again ... I never said,
Quote:
those who buy budget gear should not be allowed to record or are people he would not want to associate himself with
.. so please drop it. Your repeating it endlessly, will not make it true.

Perhaps a revisit to the statement will refresh your memory. 7 posts down last line. Those were indeed your exact words and a great example of the basis for my disagreement. If that is not a personal slap in the face to those who do not think as you do I frankly do not know what is.

(Dead Link Removed)

there is a certain standard that separates a 'proffesional recording from an 'amatur' recording and its usually the result of experience and gear - or lack off- all you have to do is to listen and your ear will tell you which is which.

not to say that you cant certainly crank out crap with pro gear- actually its done all the time- but it is very hard to put out a pro recording with crap gear, even with experience, and its next to impossible to put out a proffesional recording with crap gear and little or no experience- sorry, but that is the way that it is.

we are lucky to be living in a time when we have affordable daws, mics, pres, etc and the tools are to our command to be able to pursue our art. But the problem is, and I agree with kurt here, that while you no longer have to drop $100,000+ on a console and a 2' recorder to get pro results, you still have to get the appropiate tools for the job. I am sorry, a cheap mixer a sound blaster, some cheap mics and a daw will not give you pro results- granted, it will be better than your daddys portastudio but not by much.

kingfrog,
What I said in it's proper context was;

Kurt Foster wrote:
Instead of looking at bringing down the bottom line, which in the end only short changes the client and yourself, look to ways to increase the value of the product and services you provide. Part of this for myself has been to be more selective about the clients I choose. I submit that perhaps someone who isn't will to bear the expense of quality recording, shouldn't be recording in the first place or at the least, is not someone I would want to be involved with.

This was in regards to the clients I choose to work with, not an assertion that people who can't afford the best equipment should not be interested in recording or even do it. The comment was not stated as an absolute, but rather a "perhaps". .. and I was speaking in regards to my personal choices, not everyone else's.

That you try to read an entire different meaning or to quote it in regards to a totally different topic, is despicable. Like I said before, dirty pool which I view as nothing short of a feeble attempt at character assassination.

I am sorry, a cheap mixer a sound blaster, some cheap mics and a daw will not give you pro results- granted, it will be better than your daddys portastudio but not by much.

Bruce Springsteen recorded and released his album Nebraska on a Tascam portastudio 144 and two SM57 mikes...........

http://www.tascam.com/Press/UserStories/Bruce_Springsteins_Nebraska.htm This is not the rule I know and he got a lot of groans from the engineers as well. Sound familiar? I agree better gear=better sound. But I am not a purist and do not feel a person's work is invalid without great gear either.

That you try to read an entire different meaning or to quote it in regards to a totally different topic, is despicable. Like I said before, dirty pool which I view as nothing short of character assassination.

I certainly am not attempting to assassinate your character. I apoligize if you feel it is my purpose. However I do not think I am the first person to gleen your attitude and call you on it. The seemingly elitist attitude that all who want to record and sell product are entitled to do so only if they have certain gear 'approved" by self annoited experts. I consider myself as much an expert in home recording and do not agree with those premises.

I think we do agree in that I believe one should spend at least $300-$400 a channel for a vocal preamp. Where we part ways is that I believe you do not need to spend anymre more as the benifits are not worth the multiples of price. I do believe you can make a saleable CD tracked through Mackie mixer pre amps if thats all you can afford.

kingfrog wrote:

I am sorry, a cheap mixer a sound blaster, some cheap mics and a daw will not give you pro results- granted, it will be better than your daddys portastudio but not by much.

Bruce Springsteen recorded and released his album Nebraska on a Tascam portastudio 144 and two SM57 mikes...........

[]http://www.tascam.c…]

This is not the rule I know and he got a lot of groans from the engineers as well. Sound familiar?

I agree better gear=better sound. But I am not a purist and do not feel a person's work is invalid without great gear either.

Kingfrog,
You are the only person to mention "a person's work is invalid without great gear." That did not come from me in any form, no matter how hard you try to make it look as though it did.

I really wish you would stop trying to make it seem as if it were true. That nonsense starts and stops only with you.

Again with "Nebraska" ... notice the source! ahhh Tascam ... (like they will say something bad about the "potty studio".. lol!)

Yes, it's true but Springsteen used a qualified engineer who knew how to eek the most from the Tascam and it's DBX NR, they used good pre amps and although I doubt that it was just 57s, if that were the case, there is no content below 40Hz. which a cassette based recorder should do just fine. It was mixed on a pro board with pro processing in a pro studio. The only thing the porta studio was used for was a recorder. Also wasn't what was recorded on the TASCAM was vocals and guitar ... no bass ... no drums? No significant content below 75 Hz.

Nebraska, is not indicative of what the average person can get from a porta studio, rather the exception. That you cite it as an overall example is laughable.

Keep digging frog! I would be happy to lend you a professional shovel I am not using ... it digs better holes than the home shovels do...

Nebraska, is not indicative of what the average person can get from a porta studio, rather the exception. That you cite it as an overall example is laughable.

I said it was not the rule...and I cited it as a single example of a released product recorded on cassette and carryed around in ones pocket for weeks, then mastered depite the closed minded engineer's groans. It sold very well.

Kurt you are entitled to your views and express them. If you feel today's budget gear has harmed your "professional" sensabilities or the industry so be it. But there are thousands of others who are selling CD's produced on budget gear. That is whats really bugging you.

Perhaps your involvement in this forum is to take action to change that and hope the "boys with the toys" will see and bask in your light. So be it. I do not mind digging holes and being the lone voice in the widerness while you preach to the choir.

If indeed I am digging the proverbial hole, provide an argement that takes away the shovel.

There are purists and there are Artists. Its pretty funny really, purists always place themselvesl above the fray. On the other hand Artists do what they do without regard to rules or generally accepted notions...and its a good thing all through history they have.

Especially for those millions who bought and enjoy to this day "Nebraska" which would have never been released if you had your way.

kingfrog wrote:

Kurt .... If you feel today's budget gear has harmed your "professional" sensabilities or the industry so be it. But there are thousands of others who are selling CD's produced on budget gear. That is whats really bugging you.

That doesn't bother me in the least. As I said before and I will again I am sure, what bothers me is these huge companies who take advantage of the ignorance of the unknowing consumer who is searching out what kind of gear they need to start their own facillity. A little honesty about what is really good and what really isn't is all I am working on. The problem of "thousands of others who are selling CD's produced on budget gear" will resolve itself one way or the other sooner or later. Water seeks its own level, all things come out in the wash.

kingfrog wrote:
Perhaps your involvement in this forum is to take action to change that and hope the "boys with the toys" will see and bask in your light. So be it. I do not mind digging holes and being the lone voice in the widerness while you preach to the choir.

Man, have you got that wrong! ha ha freakin' HA! ROTFLMFAO!

I am not interested in having anyone "basking in my light". Can you make one post without including some type of insulting inuendo? What does that achieve?

I spend the majority of my time here on RO argueing this same point with whichever mis informed, ignorant person who has decided to take me on that week. That is my "flavor of the week", as you so aptly put it. Far from it, I am not preaching to the choir. Most people don't like being told that they can't get there from here with a $100 mic and preamp... They would much rather hear what you are saying ... "HEY EVERYONE! Free lunch has been served! "

kingfrog wrote:
If indeed I am digging the proverbial hole, provide an argement that takes away the shovel.

I'm trying, but it falls on deaf ears for the most part...

kingfrog wrote:
There are purists and there are Artists. Its pretty funny really, purists always place themselvesl above the fray. On the other hand Artists do what they do without regard to rules or generally accepted notions...and its a good thing all through history they have.

I see a real inconsistency in your logic. On one hand you talk of artistry and the artists doing what they want and being above the fray .. then you equate expense as not being relevant. Looking at the financial bottom line as you do, is not "being above the fray". Artists would not be concerned with the expense involved in creating their art .. they would starve, wear shabby cloths, three year old sneakers and drive an old car. Artists don't care for creature comforts. All they are concerned with is doing the very best possible work. To say any "artist" would willingly or intentionally cheap out on their work is flawed thinking IMO.

I do not place myself above anyone. Again you try to make this some kind of have and have nots class warfare thing, or to insinuate that my attitude is symptomatic of some form of eliteism. Get over these fellings of inferiority without looking for validation from outside sources. Why should you give a hoot about what I say to continue to come back and argue these same points over and over again in numerous different threads? What's the point?

kingfrog wrote:
Especially for those millions who bought and enjoy to this day "Nebraska" which would have never been released if you had your way.

Again, I do not have a "way" to be had. I don't care what you and others use to record. I don't even really care what Springsteen used to record "Nebraska". I am interested in what was used to record records I love ... Nothing Springsteen has done since, will ever compare to "Born To Run".

You make many assumptions about things you know nothing about. I have recorded more recordings on budget gear than you will ever know about ... I simply do not care in the least what you or other use and why should I? Just don't try to say the quality even approaches that of what a professionally equipped studio can provide and don't try to tell me that a $500 piece of "rack crap" is any better than a $200 piece of "rack crap". It's all crap until it's "real".

Get over these fellings of inferiority without looking for validation from outside sources. Why should you give a hoot about what I say to continue to come back and argue these same points over and over again in numerous different threads? What's the point?

Whats the point? I do not feel inferior to you nor do I need validation. If I needed validation I would have claimed I mix on a SSL 4000 "G" . I have been in and out of the music industry for 30 years and I have never heard anyone so vehemately attack budget gear. The fact that you are challenged weekly should give you pause.

I challenge you because you think people are wasting their money unless they prescribe to your notion of what is considered acceptabe as well possibly inhibiting those who would otherwise want to record their own music using said gear. Perhaps thats your goal...who knows?

I simply do not care in the least what you or other use and why should I? Just don't try to say the quality even approaches that of what a professionally equipped studio can provide and don't try to tell me that a $500 piece of "rack crap" is any better than a $200 piece of "rack crap". It's all crap until it's "real".

Yes you do care and you should if you are going to expect credibility and respect . Calling less than $500 gear crap is not a way to bring novices to your way of thought.

kingfrog wrote: If I needed validation I would have claimed I mix on a SSL 4000 "G" .

You would lie just to get peoples approval? That's soooo whack! You think that by telling a lie, that you would feel validated, in spite of the fact that you knew you were lying? That's more than whack ... that's the tendencies a psychopathic liar would exhibit. This belies you are more concerned with the perceptions of others that what is really true. Just the fact that you would think of that, is indicative of how your thought process works. Like I said, keep digging.

I challenge you because you think people are wasting their money unless they prescribe to your notion of what is considered acceptabe as well possibly inhibiting those who would otherwise want to record their own music using said gear. Perhaps thats your goal...who knows?

No that's not my goal and you know it. You are only attempting to make me look like the bad guy. Again ... I don't care what you or others use to record with. Period. You want to use cheap gear ?? Fine. I do not care. Just don't try to tell me your work compares with that of a major studio or the home recordist with good gear. It doesn't. You want to use only expensive gear? Fine too.

Actually looking at all the posts you have made, it appears to me that you have as much problem with people who use expensive gear as you seem to think I have, with people on the budget end.

Do not make the mistake of thinking that because your mind works in a particular fashion, that all others think on the same levels as well. People all have different thought processes and they do not think the same way or have the same set of ethics. Just because you might be a liar, doesn't mean that everyone else is too.

Fine. I do not care. Just don't try to tell me your work compares with that of a major studio or the home recordist with good gear. It doesn't.Actually looking at all the posts you have made, it appears to me that you have as much problem with people who use expensive gear as you seem to think I have, with people on the budget end.

Do not make the mistake of thinking that because your mind works in a particular fashion, that all others think on the same levels as well. People all have different thought processes and they do not think the same way or have the same set of ethics. Just because you might be a liar, doesn't mean that everyone else is too.

Calling me a liar now ? Thinking back I should have lied to gain the adda boy from the all knowing Kurt Foster. . Show me where I ever said my work is comparable to a professional studio. I always said it is acceptable and that it is...not to you or the self annointed elite..bu to those who pay for my work both in my studio and my own CD. When people pay for something it has value. If that something was produced with inferiior gear by another's or even industry standards does not take away from the value to the buyer of the music.

I don't have a problem with those who choose to spend more on gear. I have associates and friends who do just that. They do not claim I should not be recording because I don't subscribe to their sense of whats needed to make a "quality" recording. Its all subjective and personal opinion.

I do have a problem with those who claim anything less than what they deem "quality" gear is not valid at all and music should not be recorded using such trash and sold to the public......and thats where you unfortuantly stand.

Whoa dudes, I'm liking this thread. I thought I kicked a hornets nest in my thread about new guitars verse over-priced vintage ones.
Glad to see a couple of guys who ain't affraid to take the gloves off...congradulations.

Oh by the way if you really want to get into something that let's you throw lots of big dollars at it and get over-priced crap in return try wine, you gotta take a special tasting classes just to convince yourself you ain't an idiot for doing it, talk about over-anal-izing something. Dang !
"There's one born every minute"
"A fool and his money are soon parted"
"No one ever went broke underestimating the bad tasted of the amerian public"
"More money than brains"
No wonder there's so many of these ol' sayings around.
My brothers says people don't care what they get in return the real joy is in spending the money. My 2cd wife said having money wasn't an afrodez-eack but spending it WAS. Even GW our/your shining pres says as Americans it's our duty to borrow and spend. Once my sister bought a beenie baby for $500. The joy of spending. Hey some people just like to spend money and will make up any excuse to do it.
Anyway I'm gonna be in the market soon for some under $500 pres and mics, unless of course I think I'm just throwing my money away.

Anyway I'm gonna be in the market soon for some under $500 pres and mics, unless of course I think I'm just throwing my money away.

There are some great $500 pre amps but do not expect professioal results......nor will you get your money back when you grow out of them and get sucked onto the gotta hear the "gnat fart" category.

So I suggest you save your money and buy a bottle of fine wine instead....and don't you dare try to sell a CD you record with that crap...unless of course you drank the whole bottle...........

Kurt Foster wrote: Fine. I do not care. Just don't try to tell me your work compares with that of a major studio or the home recordist with good gear. It doesn't. Actually looking at all the posts you have made, it appears to me that you have as much problem with people who use expensive gear as you seem to think I have, with people on the budget end.

Do not make the mistake of thinking that because your mind works in a particular fashion, that all others think on the same levels as well. People all have different thought processes and they do not think the same way or have the same set of ethics. Just because you might be a liar, doesn't mean that everyone else is too.

kingfrog wrote: Calling me a liar now ? Thinking back I should have lied to gain the adda boy from the all knowing Kurt Foster.

You said "If I needed validation I would have claimed I mix on a SSL 4000 "G" ... and now "I should have lied to gain the adda boy from the all knowing Kurt Foster". I didn't call you a liar. I suggested that in this case you yourself mentioned that you would lie and in turn I suggested you might be a lair. You opened that door yourself. So you are saying again, that lying is a common mode of operation for you? Please clear this up.

kingfrog wrote: Show me where I ever said my work is comparable to a professional studio. I always said it is acceptable and that it is...not to you or the self annointed elite..bu to those who pay for my work both in my studio and my own CD. When people pay for something it has value. If that something was produced with inferiior gear by another's or even industry standards does not take away from the value to the buyer of the music..

Just because you deem a particular level of quality as "acceptable" doesn't make it so. You are not the arbitrator of all things. It's nice that your clients are happy. I bet they would be happier if I recorded them though.

Again with the "the self annointed elite" comments. Are you unable to make even one post without that kind of garbage included? Or is that all you have? I do not think of myself as "elite". That's your baggage, not mine.

kingfrog wrote: I don't have a problem with those who choose to spend more on gear. I have associates and friends who do just that. They do not claim I should not be recording because I don't subscribe to their sense of whats needed to make a "quality" recording. Its all subjective and personal opinion.

I do have a problem with those who claim anything less than what they deem "quality" gear is not valid at all and music should not be recorded using such trash and sold to the public......and thats where you unfortuantly stand.

You continue to make this allegation when the proof that I never said such things is right here in this thread. I never said that "rack crap" is not valid. I said it was "rack crap". Should music be recorded using that kind of gear? ... Sure, sometimes. It depends what it's being recorded for.

You do not have a clue as to where I stand. All you know about me is what I have written in these pages and it appears to me that you can't even get that straight.