Just because you deem a particular level of quality is "acceptable" doesn't make it so. You are not the arbitrator of all things. It's nice that your clients are happy. I bet they would be happier if I recorded them though.

Again with the "the self annointed elite" comments. Are you unable to make even one post without that kind of garbage included? Or is that all you have? I do not think of myself as "elite". That's your baggage, not mine.

Ditto for your sense of whats quality. As far as my clients go they would waste hours listening to your arguments of what should be verses what they want. And pay more for the privilege.

You do not have a clue as to where I stand. All you know about me is what I have written in these pages and it appears to me that you can't even get that straight.

I know years ago you recorded the chart busting CDs of Brownie McGhee (who?), Jeff Larson,(who?) Kenny Blue Ray (who)?, Danny Hull of the Doobie Brothers (hasbeen who?), Gary Cambra (The Tubes) ohhh him? and Jackie Payne who who who? ..and numerous local bands............Now there is a list of credits that make you credible..............incredable .. It must be frustrating to have all those credits and still be a no name in the industry....and with all that expensive gear to boot........

Ahhh, insults again. You must really be running out of cogent points of contention, to once again attempt to drag this into the gutter with personal insults.

As far as my cliens go they would waste hours litening to your arguments of what should be verses what they want. And pay more the privilege.

Again you make assumption about things you know nothing about. Actually, I am more or less retired, but when I do take on a project unless you charge less than $25 per hour, not so ... and I bet I work a lot faster than you do.

Unless I am hired as a producer, I don't offer opinion or input. I just set up the mics and hit record. Once in a while I might mention tuning.

I know years ago you recorded the chart busting CDs of Brownie McGhee (who?), Jeff Larson,(who?) Kenny Blue Ray (who)?, Danny Hull of the Doobie Brothers (hasbeen who?), Gary Cambra (The Tubes) ohhh him? and Jackie Payne who who who? ..and numerous local bands............Now there is a list of credits that make you credible..............incredable .. It must be frustrating to have all those credits and still be a no name in the industry....and with all that expensive gear to boot........

You don't know who Brownie McGhee was ...??? A quick search found 74,200 listings on Google. How many Google links have any of your clients got? .... Here educate yourself.
Brownie McGhee links
It was a real honor to record this great innovater of Blues and Rock and Roll. He and his brother "Sticks" McGhee, recorded what has been called one of the the first rock and roll records, "Drinkin' Wine Spoodie Odie", for Atlantic records.

Jeff Larson is currently working with the same people who did Brian Wilsons "Smile" record ... Jeffery Fosskit, Bruce Johnston ... those guys. He sells very well in Europe and Asia. Where do your records sell?

Jackie Payne ... worked for Johhny Otis. Who have any of your clients worked for?

You forgot to mention individual memmbers of Huey Lewis, and Tower of Power, (yes the horn guys), Nik Turner from Hawkwind for Cleopatara Records, (you have heard of them haven't you?)
What record lables have put out your work?

I have several records that can be found at Virgin / Tower world wide or on Amazon dot com.. Where can your records be bought?

It was a joy in many cases to record with some of these people. Kenny Blue Ray is one of the best producers I have ever met. That guy drives a recording session like no one else. His records sound fantastic! Having the opprotunity to record with these great artists (in every sense of the word artists) provided me with the means to buy the gear you so seem to resent. So I can honestly say that all of your assumptions are way off base. You are so full of envy and sour grapes that it is making me sick. I don't understand how you manage to live with yourself.

Insults aimed at me, from the guy in Branson MO. where the washed up, go to wash out .... Laughable!

"kingfrogI agree better gear=better sound. But I am not a purist and do not feel a person's work is invalid without great gear either. [/quote wrote:

I don't think we are talking valid or invalid here- we are talking pro sounding as opposed to amateur sounding. I recorded a lotta things on portastudio when I was so young that sounded good to me and it certainly was valid to me and my bandmates but it wasn't 'pro' quality and certainly we would never release it. If you want to record something for pro release it has to sound pro or it'll be very hard to sell. heck even if you are just making CDs to sell at your gigs there is a certain standard you have to shoot for, otherwise your 'fans' will think you are gyping them

I'll repeat myself, you need chops, then equipment to make a pro soundingCD. If you have neither you can't make something that sounds a nywhere close to pro. If you have the chops you can get close with less than pro gear- heck, if you don't have the chops you'll never make anything sound good with pro equipment here!
Not to say that your art is not valid, just not saleable IMO. The people out there expect a certain standard in their music and if you are way off the mark it is not a saleable product. I have many things I have recorded over the years that mean a lot to me and mine but I would not there put out there- when you put your name to something and put it out there, it'd better sound good as your reputation is on the line- 8)

I don't live in Brasnson. I have and on ocassion work there. I live in LAs Vegas. I do not as I have said in many threads record as a profession and I only cater to the guys who want to sell CDs at gigs and record a CD for less than $1200.

It is not me who is all in a bundle about what is professional and what's not. Thats your bag. Its all professional to me if people buy the product.

I do not have any records to my knowlege in national record stores. It is not now nor has ever been a goal of mine'. I also amd not impressed nor do I know any of your "famous" clients (goog le counts and all) except through your stated associations. None of their direct work.

I do know this though. One can make a saleable product on gear that does not cost an arm and a leg. Thers is no such thing as rack crap for someone who wants to put there music on CD and sell it at gigs or where ever. We will not agree on this point and as long as I can post here that will be my point of focus......You can have the last word and lock the thread.

I don't live in Brasnson. I have and on ocassion work there. I live in LAs Vegas. I do not as I have said in many threads record as a profession and I only cater to the guys who want to sell CDs at gigs and record a CD for less than $1200.

It is not me who is all in a bundle about what is professional and what's not. Thats your bag. Its all professional to me if people buy the product.

I do not have any records to my knowlege in national record stores. It is not now nor has ever been a goal of mine'. I also amd not impressed nor do I know any of your "famous" clients (goog le counts and all) except through your stated associations. None of their direct work.

I do know this though. One can make a saleable product on gear that does not cost an arm and a leg. Thers is no such thing as rack crap for someone who wants to put there music on CD and sell it at gigs or where ever.

As I have said before you do remind me of someone who spent $5000 on a Rolex only to see a guy across the room with seeminly the same watch getting the same "bang" from the general public , only his watch is a $200 disposable knockof.

The Behringer argument. If Their gear was so bad..I would not think there would be such a big market of satified users and they would have been out of business long ago. They would have gone the way of the Yugo. The market rules in the end.

We will not agree on this point and as long as I can post here my point of focus will be on those who cannot or choose not to buy gear they don't feel they need......You can have the last word and lock the thread.

kingfrog wrote: IIt is not me who is all in a bundle about what is professional and what's not. Thats your bag. Its all professional to me if people buy the product.
.

so what's the problem? if you make it and they buy it and they are happy there is no problem. I don't know what your stuff sounds like so I can't have an opinion, I can only speak for myself.

Speaking for myself I tell you that ever since I started upgrading my studio my sound has greatly improved, my art is happy, my soul is happy. I am a writer and I also record and produce other people and the better it sounds, the better it is and the happier everyone is. I don't regret any quality mic, pre, AD, outboard gear I ever bought. I do regret that i spent 2K on a roland vs880 when they first came out in '97 or '98 and that I ended up selling for like $500 a couple of years later- that's a waste! If I had bought a u87 or a couple of C414's for that money, I still have them and would still use them, instead of selling it for pennies on the dollar.
8)
you can record with whatever gear you got and if it sounds good to you and yours, more power to you. but if you are trying to tell me that great gear does not matter that much you are only fooling yourself. If that was so, why would pro studio spend so much money on gear? hey, they would buy nothing but behringer and put the money in the bank. But good sound cost money. there is no way to get around that. If you have the chops you can get close but sorry, no cigar IMHO

shucks

Hey Kingfrog...you think I should go for the wine then....?

And Kurt...dude..... you recorded Brownie McGhee, all kidding aside what an honor that must have been, I use to catch him all the time with Sonny in the Village (Greenwich) and even had some 78s of Sticks McGhee, who was his younger brother...yes/no ?
So what's the deal, I'm just a 'home' recorder kinda guy, with a very humble $800 multitrack, and a cheap bottle of wine.....I hear some budget pres like the ART Pro Channel will give me some improvements in my 'home' recordings, while some of the others ain't even worth getting. true ? false ?

I do know this though. One can make a saleable product on gear that does not cost an arm and a leg.

I agree with that. But I know people who can sell a rats a%%hole as a wedding ring. I have sold thousands of bandstand tapes recorded on 1/2" 8 and a Carvin Board or even less at gigs in the past. At least one of the records I made for Jeff Larson was done with a DAT recorder, a 1/4" 4 track and a Phonic rack mount mixer and a load of rack crap outboard ... That doesn't make them very good (quality wise) though. The performances were good however.

Thers is no such thing as rack crap for someone who wants to put there music on CD and sell it at gigs or where ever.

That still sounds more like marketing hype to me than anything else. Of course there's such thing as rack crap and Behringer gear is the epitomy of it.

I'm not alone in this perception, in fact I am not even the person who coined the term "Rack Crap" ... that was Rick Hamming (RealDynamics) that came up with that turn of phrase.

We will not agree on this point and as long as I can post here that will be my point of focus

I agree that we don't agree on this issue. We probably never will. To say that some people "don't get it" would be applicable both ways. You don't get what I am saying and I absolutley do not get what you are trying to say.

No need to lock the thread IMO. Again, that's only a last resort. I'm sure other may want to comment or have someting to offer.

Speaking for myself I tell you that ever since I started upgrading my studio my sound has greatly improved, my art is happy, my soul is happy. I am a writer and I also record and produce other people and the better it sounds, the better it is and the happier everyone is. I don't regret any quality mic, pre, AD, outboard gear I ever bought. I do regret that i spent 2K on a roland vs880 when they first came out in '97 or '98 and that I ended up selling for like $500 a couple of years later- that's a waste! If I had bought a u87 or a couple of C414's for that money, I still have them and would still use them, instead of selling it for pennies on the dollar.

Im not saying great gear does not matter. I am saying the returns are greatly dimished as the price escalates. I went kickin and screaming from an ART MP the the VCQ1. I do not feel the aural need to go any higher in quality or price. I have heard other in studios and A/B mine with an Avalon. The diffence to me just was not worth another thousand dollars.

Dollr for dollar you will lose more money on the more expensive things one buys on all fronts. I sold my ART MP for $25 less than I paid for it. I'll bet I will lose $300 on the VCQ1......and more on more expensive gear.

If I pay $150 for the Rode Nt1and can get $100 on Ebay for it I only lost $50. If you resell your AKG 414 no one is going to buy a used one for $50 less than a new one in that market. That goes for ANYTHING expensive Cars and audio gear. The more expensive the more of a hit you have to take to sell it vs the price new. Becasue people who are in that market will need to save alot to buy someones used gear Unless its considered "vintage" and in demand.

Finances are relative and we all place our money where it suits us the best. For me it has not been my Home Studio. For 30 years I have enjoyed what I have done for myself and others and have appreciated the HUGE leap in quality vs price in that market.

I would not have enjoyed or enjoy it any more now if I bought a U87 tomorrow to replace my Rode NT2. If that were the case I'd have one even if I had to take a second mortgage lol.

Somehow I feel your moderator Kurt is not "semi" retired by choice. I sense some bitterness towards the increasing quality of Home Studio gear. I am beginning to belive the sucess of the rack crap has something to do with his bitterness.

If you feel you cannot make a relavant product you can be proud of without a certain piece of gear, by all means you are going to have to make that leap. I just don't feel that way and do not think others should be MADE or convinced to feel that way.

Hey Kingfrog...you think I should go for the wine then....?

............ I'm just a 'home' recorder kinda guy, with a very humble $800 multitrack, and a cheap bottle of wine.....I hear some budget pres like the ART Pro Channel will give me some improvements in my 'home' recordings, while some of the others ain't even worth getting. true ? false ?

You already know how Kurt is going to answer that...lol Drink some wine..throw your dreams away and maybe the big studio will come back and Kurt can once again be king of his domain.....

Seriously I would ask you how much you can afford before you leap. Ebay has a lot of used gear at good prices all along the spectrum. I think even an ART Tube Pack would be better than the pre amps in your multi track....but thats considered rack crap aound here. Our sax player in Las Vegas uses the lowly ART MP for his pre amp in the show there. He loves it in that application. ( ok so I sold it to him) but he had many choices.

I went kickin and screaming from an ART MP the the VCQ1. I do not feel the aural need to go any higher in quality or price. I have heard other in studios and A/B mine with an Avalon. The diffence to me just was not worth another thousand dollars.

If you can't hear enough difference to warrent the expense of an Avalon pre over the ART or the Meek pres, then perhaps that is is problem. You cannot hear the difference. But there is one believe me. Are you really saying there's no difference? If someone gave you an Avalon, would you refuse it?

Dollr for dollar you will lose more money on the more expensive things one buys on all fronts. I sold my ART MP for $25 less than I paid for it. I'll bet I will lose $300 on the VCQ1......and more on more expensive gear.

That is simply not true. As was stated and as I said before, most the vintage and high end pieces I have I can sell for more than I paid for them. I am beginning to wonder if perhaps you don't know where to shop for good deals on pro gear.

Somehow I feel your moderator Kurt is not "semi" retired by choice. I sense some bitterness towards the increasing quality of Home Studio gear. I am beginning to belive the sucess of the rack crap has something to do with his bitterness.

Again with the personal comments about subjects you know nothing about. I will warn you about this one more time, keep to the facts, keep your mouth off me and everyone else. Next time I'll just delete it instead of responding.

I will tell you since your flapped your mouth. I don't know if you have ever been to the SF Bay Area. Things are going crazy there. It is so overcrowded and congested, there's gridlock on the freeways at 11 pm. It is not safe to drive your car without carrying a baseball bat to fight the road rage stains. You can't fart in the Safeway because there's someone right up your arse. The schools suck and there's so many rats in the cage, they are beginning to devour themselves. I sold my console and 2" tape machine in late 99 / early 2000, before the bottom of the market dropped out and all my friends down there have told me that I got out at exactly the right time. Their only question to me is "How did you know when to sell?"

My wife wants some kids and Calif. is no place to raise them nowdays, so I cashed out the studio and sold the house, sold off the investments and retired to the country. I live on two acres I own free and clear, near one of the best fresh water fishing rivers in the whole world, and everything I have is paid for. I have deer coming down to eat the apples on the property and I sleep until I wake up on my own, ride around on my ATV and go play blues with my buddies in town and to boot, I haven't had to pay for the cable for 3 years running. Yeah, I'm a fat bitter old fart ...

Again I will comment that I never said don't record yourself with cheap gear. That all comes from the "Mouth O' Frog". Just don't take yourself too seriously.

Yes, almost any pre amp is going to be an improvment over those found in most porta studios. I agree to that. Just as with all this home studio stuff, there is vast room for improvment.

I could hear the difference yes between the VCQ1 and the Avalon..Was it enough to command another $1000? The answer then and now is no. From an esoteric standpoint yes.If someone gave one to me I would put it on Ebay for someone who has a better appreciation for that unit and spend the money somewhere else.

There is no guarantee all the expensive gear will become higher priced vintage gear. Most does NOT and you know it.
Here is the proof http://www.prepal.com/data/Avalon.htm[/quote

As you can see the Avalon sales on Ebay are as follows

MODEL MSRP Price NUMBER SOLD
VT-737SP $2,300 $1,534 157 trending down
VT-747SP $2,500 $1,458 40 trending down
AD-2044 $3,000 $1,777 23 trending down
AD-2022 $3,000 $1,863 20 trending up
Only the AD 2022 is shown as trending up in price. Look at the losses from $800 to $1300 used. Now compare that with Alesis gear

You are wrong again. I will not buy gear Im going to lose that much money on.

Now lets have a look at my Joe Meek

VC1Q Studio Channel $800 $477 126

I paid $650..126 sold at market decided price of $477. I can reasonably expect $450 for a huge $200 loss

Heres a $2400 dual mono Manley pre amp

Dual Mono Mic PreAmp $1,315 23 trending down

23 sold for an average price of nearly HALF retail............

The "vintage" valuable stuff is the exception NOT the rule..

So much for the value of resale for the top end gear...

Regarding the idyllic paradise you call heaven........Very beautiful postcard Kurt...the deer are a nice visual and the creek a nice touch.

With all that beautiful paradise thing going on I don't understand the bitteness and contempt for those who "perhaps should not be recording if they cannot afford preper gear" and I think further people in general.

The only thing that matches your thinly veiled contempt is your ego and desperate need to still be revered as the supreme book of recording knowledge. This is the last place to achieve that and judging from some of the threads its not very convincing.

You have the power of censorship and feel free to use it at will.....You know who you really are and I do. the Home Studio revolution hurt you and I know it...I could tell the way you called us "scabs" and said I would be "squealing like a pig" in some back alley by some musicians union thugs.....back in your glory days.

No No No Kurt You are not telling the whole story behind the pretty paradise backdrop.......... Your $300 demo package with all those expensive antiques says alot about your reputation to command top dollar. How many of those deer are taking you up on that generous offer?

So enjoy the deer and crystal clear water...besides this forum thats all you seem to have left..from the "glory" days and at such a young age. That is a bit sad.

As for me Im not quite ready to "go fishing yet" But I will do the same in Branson as you when I am much older with the rest of the has beens and never will bes.

Kingfrog, hey I'm like Kurt, loaded (enough for me), retired and fishing some of the best trout rivers in the country (sorry can't tell you where, we don't want all the Cali-fornians movin' in), unlike him I saw the hand writting on the wall 40 years ago and left the madness.
I suppose I could buy a $2000 pre and a $200 dollar bottle of wine, but if I were taken to doing things like that I'd still be a broke working slop, with not time to pick or fish.
It's just a home studio, so a couple three hundred bucks is my budget for a pre single or dual channel, maybe that 'brick' but that might even be over-kill for me.
Hey Kurt, what kinda' fishing rod you got ? Do you fly fish? I'm what you'd call one of those avid purist, you put on a wet fly and my nose goes up. Say I got this old $30 fly rod, it's beat to shit, suppose I could buy on of those foo-foo ones for $600, my friends all got 'em, but that little piece of poop I got manages to catch more fish than them.........go figure. Funny, I take a certain pride in making old junk out perform the good stuff........go figure. Granted a good rod will allow you to cast farther to a spooky trout, But a patient fisherman will be able to get closer. Now don't get me wrong I still will drop the big bucks on good fly tying hackle. Sometimes you just gotta have the best......go figure.

I know I'm going out on a limb when I say this but....

kingfrog, you're an a$$#*13! :lol:

Shut the hell up and get out of my topic. Enough Kurt bashing already. People think they're so tough on the internet... I bet you wouldn't say a tenth of the stuff you write on here if you were face to face.

Bottom line, and no one can refute this. If you ask for a professional opinion on budget gear that is crap, you're going to get a crap answer! Surprise suprise! So stop thinking that there is a free lunch, that you can buy 30$ pre-amps that are just as good as 1500$ ones, and go record on your fricking portastudio... i don't really care!

For anyone else out there that wants to buy half decent gear at half decent prices (which doesnt involved Behringer sh1t3), keep asking or searching the forum for info on buys like the Yamaha MSP5 monitors, the Groove Tubes Brick pre-amp, the Studio Projects C1 LDC, and the FMR RNC. THAT my friends, is where the real value is.

This topic has become a mudslinging match and has far gone past what it was intended to be - an apology for cutting up Behringer gear when everyone knows, deep down in their hearts, that you can't buy the Ford Pinto of audio gear and expect a Ferrari F40 in return. I have now come to realize that there are people on this board that can't take the truth for one reason or another, and in order to "make peace" I apologized and said if i don't have anything nice to say, I won't say anything at all.

Since this was my topic and I have said what I came here to say, I ask that this be locked. I KNOW kingfrog will have something to say about this til he takes his last breath, and there isn't a gentlemans bone in the man's body, so unfortunately I see this as one of the 2 solutions.

The other, which I like even more... is to let kingfrog post here all he wants, and just for everyone else to ignore him. Really though people, do we need what he is contributing to this board? Personal attacks on people's opinions, choices, professional career, demeanor and overall character? I say screw him. We don't need that. We are here for one thing only, to learn from the people with experience about MUSIC.

Personally, I'm never reading another one of his posts again. He has lost any credibility whatsoever that he used to have in my opinion. Have some respect.

Tom

there is certainly no reason for personal slander and the frog is been doing a lotta of that lately- makes you wonder what his motivation is-

personally i think that if you want to record for fun we have tools now that are much better than the old portastudio at about the same price- aren't we lucky! i think I paid more than 1k, 80's dollars for my first portastudio and it was fun but definitely not pro- but who cares about pro sound when you are having fun anyway!

But if you have a business or if you want to record more than for fun and are serious about your art- you need better tools. If you can't hear the difference, then sorry you have no ears. Maybe you can't hear the difference but there are people who can. When you do hear the difference it becomes important- until then, who cares!

Yeehaw, this is some good stuff. But I don't see why there is anger and insults being thrown around. I think you guys are failing to see that you are basically in agreement: there are diminishing returns as you go up the ladder towards the high-end audio products. If you don't want a 10% improvement in sound or quality, then don't worry about it. Some people want the best of the best, which will cost more than you believe it is worth. That is where your opinion on "what is good enough" comes into play; it is only your opinion.

Sorry, I try to avoid Bass Pro, but I have some friends that are really into fly fishing around here. :)

I don't understand the bitteness and contempt for those who "perhaps should not be recording if they cannot afford preper gear" and I think further people in general.

Once again ... I never said that and your repeating the mantra endlessly in quotation marks will not make it so. If you're going to make comments on things I said, it would be better if they were actually things I said. Otherwise, you only make yourself look like a schmuck, especially when you don't even spell the words correctly.

As far as your list of "preper gear" that is depreciating, if you know anything about business, you will understand you can write the depreciation off the tax's. Of course, you have to make money with your music, in order to be able to write off depreciation. Maybe that's an expierence you haven't had as of yet.

It's interesting to me, that you know how to put that information together. My hats off to you. I wouldn't have thought of it. In fact, I don't think anyone else would either unless they were deeply entrenched in audio retail sales or marketing research. It makes me wonder where you are coming from?

Second, the things you listed are not the stuff I have and I have never paid those prices for anything, even the stuff I have bought new. Actually, I am not a big Avalon user. I prefer the old UREI designs of Bill Putnam and things like the LA2a and Neve type stuff. As I said I don't have one mic pre or compressor that I couldn't sell for more than I paid for it. So perhaps my business acumen is better than yours, I don't know. To be truthful, I'm tired of trying to figure what your problem is.

What I do know is you are a coward that doesn't reveal who you really are, or what you do for a living that makes slanderous remarks behind a bullsh*t screen name. I looked at your profile ... no occupation listed, no location listed and the email goes to "kingfrog"@fullocrap.com or something like that. I think you are an industry schill. It wouldn't be the first time one came on to RO undercover to spread bullsh*t.

johnyguitar,
I don't fish. My buddy is a river guide and I float down the river with him a few times a year and I shuttle him back up the river when he floats in to the boat landing a mile up the river from my house. I'm not a hunter or a fisherman though. I actually lived here first before my wife and I moved to CA in the early 80's. So we don't get that "Don't Californicate our State" stuff from the locals. But I did change the plates on the cars pretty fast, when we came back home.

If you are ever in the area, let me know and I'll set you up with my buddy for a river float. He knows where the Salmon, Steelhead and Trout all hide.

Sproll,
I would lock the thread but the problem won't go away ... it has already spread to other threads. Perhaps if enough people complain to audiokid, he will close out kingfrogs profile and block him from the site. But at this point, it needs to come from somewhere else other than myself or the other mods. It should come from the members.

frog wants me to lock the thread. He knows he has made a major ass of himself and he would like this all to fade away. The best way for that to happen is to force a mod to lock the thread. That way it can never be brought back to life months or years down the line. I have seen 3 year old threads resurface from time to time. One like this will surely haunt the site for quite a while. There's nothing that frog would like than to see better than for this thread locked and to disappear.

The best thing to do is what you suggested, ignore him. I have suspicions that this guy is an industry schill / hack that has come to RO with an agenda to support the dealers and manufacturers of the low end. "Me-thinks the lady doth protesth too much." as Fletcher so aptly put it one time. My suggestion is for everyone to copy the link address of this thread and from now on when ever frog makes a bullsh*t post on RO, reply by posting the link and mentioning that this is what this guy is like. Let the whole world see what a jerk he is.

One thing I know for sure. RO is the most read site of its kind on the net. YThis is one thing kingfrog cannot take away from us. A look at our stats shows that most the time we now have over 100 people at any given moment reading ROs pages with over 8 million page views in the past year. The manufacturers are sitting up and taking a hard look at RO. To think they weren't would be naive. Do a Google search on just about any type of gear and see what comes up on the first ten results. Chances are you will find a link to an RO topic. This does not escape the attention of marketers, manufacturers and retail dealers.

The industry hacks all want access to the base of consumers RO has assembled for them. It's like shooting fish in a barrel. My and others efforts are to keep RO reasonably free of these guys who come here to push crap gear, claming it's performance approaches that of the high end (which my opinion is, it doesn't) on the unsuspecting consumer. By registering under bogus screen names and newly created e mail accounts, they pose as a board members and making positive remarks on crap gear (I mean really, to come on the forum and to push Behringer? haaa haaa haaa haaa!) attempting to counteract any negative remarks reported by users (not just me but all of you as well). Its a way to diffuse bad reports by diluting the pool of negative remarks with bogus positive reports of "plenty good enough" and "how good does it need to be" bullsh*t. I'll tell you how good it needs to be .... As good as you can make it! Sometimes, you only get one chance at the brass ring. Do you want to wonder what might have happened if you had gone that extra mile?

kingfrog hides behind a bullsh*t screen name and won't post a real picture of himself. He has been very ambiguous about what he really does for a living. In one post / thread he says he's from Branson MO ... and in another post / thread he says Las Vegas. hmmmm... both places that have a high concentration of large sound companies and equipment dealers. In another post frog says he sold his buddy an Art pre. These are all little clues he is letting slip through without realizing it. As I said, the more he posts, the deeper the hole he has dug, gets. I am going to see what I can suss out on this guy. The more he posts, the deeper the hole he digs for himself gets. Every time he posts he leaves a clue on the trail. All is cool! K.

Wow......I didn't realize there were industry shills on these things pushing their brand stuff/junk. Hummm...learn something new everyday.
Must say I have wondered from time to time, some people do sound like commercials when they write...."Golly Andie"....
See that I learned something here I never expected to learn...shills on the internet, I use to be a shill in a poker game, not that that matters here.
Anyway, Kurt thanks for the invite....do yourself a favor though and don't tell anyone that you live in a nice place or it won't be that way for long........AND get yourself a cheap fly pole, even if you don't fish it's a great excuse to go out and get some exercise, solitude, sort life out and take a nap ta' boot. I'm well past my half century mark and as to date have yet to find a better way to spend time. You too frog...get a fly rod and lighten up........

Sproll I know you wont read this but for others I will answer......some points you make. I am not going to defend my posts regarding Kurt. People can read them and come to their own conclusons as did you.

everyone knows, deep down in their hearts, that you can't buy the Ford Pinto of audio gear and expect a Ferrari F40 in return.

Ah Duh? I never said that anywhere but hey some cannot comprehend what they read very well. I understand. But what everyone needs to know is you do not NEED a Ferrari to get from here to there. There are other very nice and credible choices.

The other, which I like even more... is to let kingfrog post here all he wants, and just for everyone else to ignore him. Really though people, do we need what he is contributing to this board? Personal attacks on people's opinions, choices, professional career, demeanor and overall character? I say screw him. We don't need that. We are here for one thing only, to learn from the people with experience about MUSIC.Personally, I'm never reading another one of his posts again. He has lost any credibility whatsoever that he used to have in my opinion. Have some respect.

Ah Duh! On any forum people will read posts from those they give some credibility to. Some will read mine some won't . Just like I do.
You have made your decision now stick to it.

frogs sig line wrote: *all the the above is personal opinion only......

What's with that? I guess frog knows he is slandering people and he want to cover his ass ....

The more this all goes on, the more I suspect this guy is here on some sort of mission to carry out a specific agenda.

frog wrote: I am not going to defend my posts regarding Kurt.

Of course you won't. because you can't. Come on ... who the fu*% are you? Come out from behind that bullsh*t screenaname you use ... regeister with a real name and e mail addy .. What are you hiding or afraid of? (excuse me, I need to sneeze, chickensh*t! ... pardon me) Who are you really? I heve been registered here under the same name (real) for over 2 years now. Everyone knows who I am and what I have done.

frog wrote: You have made your decision now stick to it.

Of course frog only wants to argue with me because he knows I have a rep for getting into squabbles. When others post telling him he's an idiot, it's an indication that he's waaaay off base, which screws up his world.

frog, Where do you get off trying to tell people what to do here? You are not a moderator. You have no standing here. Quit trying to bully and shove people around. What a jerk!

Once again ... I never said that and your repeating the mantra endlessly in quotation marks will not make it so. If you're going to make comments on things I said, it would be better if they were actually things I said. Otherwise, you only make yourself look like a schmuck, especially when you don't even spell the words correctly.

I posted a link to you comment and you tried to explaine it away earlier.

Its nice that you have defenders however that does not in my eyes increase credibility. Its the "quality" of the defenders that is key.

Spelling is of no consequence here. Mostly typing issues. Communication is the key.

A mispelld or typd werd duz not mak da cumikatshun invalid. c?

As far as your list of "preper gear" that is depreciating, if you know anything about business, you will understand you can write the depreciation off the tax's. Of course, you have to make money with your music, in order to be able to write off depreciation. Maybe that's an expierence you haven't had as of yet.

My point was to prove you wrong when you claimed the better gear is a better investment when it comes to resale. Clearly you are wrong about that and the more expensive the gear no matter what brand in most cases the more you are tied to it financially becasue you will lose a lot more in MOST cases. This goes for many big ticket items.

It's interesting to me, that you know how to put that information together. My hats off to you. I wouldn't have thought of it. In fact, I don't think anyone else would either unless they were deeply entrenched in audio retail sales or marketing research.

I obtained that information becasue as I have expressed elsewhere on this thread and WHY I even came here is becasue I am selling all my analog gear and revamping my studio. When I get home in a couple months I will be putting a lot of gear on Ebay. Pre PaL is a good site to see how much certian pieces have gone for in the past so I can get a glimpse of my budget when replacing it.

Its not secret agent stuff. Anybody with a brain and savy in the Home Recording world can search for used gear prices on the net. Its also good to refute false claims made by "credible" people.
Im very proud of you in that you made excellent investments and ALL you gear made a profit for you before and after the sale...You are a business wiz. But others may not be as all knowing as you.

It makes me wonder where you are coming from?That I do know is you are a coward that doesn't reveal who you really are, or what you do for a living that makes slanderous remarks behind a bullsh*t screen name. I looked at your profile ... no occupation listed, no location listed and the email goes to "kingfrog"@fullocrap.com or something like that. I think you are an industry schill. It wouldn't be the first time one came on to RO undercover to spread bullsh*t.

For the last time I am not in Audio Sales LOL. I am an live entertainer in a nationally known show and shows and my identity can easily be construed if I reveal more than that. I choose to remain anoymous for reasons that are of no consequence to those who read these boards. If I have any credibility at all it must come from my words not my identity. I am not here to gain credibility. I really do not need it...especially on an internet message board.
When I see information that is skewed or wrong IM MY OPINION and my experience I will challenge that information AND the poster's credibility as you are doing. Its only fair. Some will see another side some won't.

I would lock the thread but the problem won't go away ... it has already spread to other threads. Perhaps if enough people complain to audiokid, he will close out kingfrogs profile and block him from the site. But at this point, it needs to come from somewhere else other than myself or the other mods. It should come from the members.

frog wants me to lock the thread. He knows he has made a major ass of himself and he would like this all to fade away. The best way for that to happen is to force a mod to lock the thread. That way it can never be brought back to life months or years down the line. I have seen 3 year old threads resurface from time to time. One like this will surely haunt the site for quite a while. There's nothing that frog would like than to see better than for this thread locked and to disappear.

audiokid is more than welcome to censor me if he chooses and delete all my posts so you can continue to mis inform on a Home Studio Buget gear thread.

I don't care if you lock the thread. Judging by you ego though I figured I would give you an out for the last word. If I have mad an azz of myself so be it. I responded to things I disagreed with and challenged the credibility of the posters who post those things as are you doing. YOu can keep the thread unlocked. Its funny that you think I care. I have a life that extends way way way beyond this little forum. Actully I would like to see ot open. Im enjoying reading the responses and responding in kind.

The best thing to do is what you suggested, ignore him. I have suspicions that this guy is an industry schill / hack that has come to RO with an agenda to support the dealers and manufacturers of the low end. "Me-thinks the lady doth protesth too much." as Fletcher so aptly put it one time. My suggestion is for everyone to copy the link address of this thread and from now on when ever frog makes a bullsh*t post on RO, reply by posting the link and mentioning that this is what this guy is like. Let the whole world see what a jerk he is.

You are free to do just that. Again Iam not an industry shill. My defense is not the gear. I DO respect, applaud and appreciate the segment of the industry that provide inexpensive gear to those who want ot record their musc Its for those who have NO other choice and/ or another option. I really do believe the Home Studio market grew becasue of the inexpensive gear and that may have chewed into your business and you are bitter about it. I do believe If you had you way there would be NO buget gear available so you might still be in business. Thats my belief based on what I have read between the lines in your posts and argument.

One thing I know for sure. RO is the most read site of its kind on the net. YThis is one thing kingfrog cannot take away from us. A look at our stats shows that most the time we now have over 100 people at any given moment reading ROs pages with over 8 million page views in the past year. The manufacturers are sitting up and taking a hard look at RO. To think they weren't would be naive. Do a Google search on just about any type of gear and see what comes up on the first ten results. Chances are you will find a link to an RO topic. This does not escape the attention of marketers, manufacturers and retail dealers...............................The industry hacks all want access to the base of consumers RO has assembled for them. It's like shooting fish in a barrel. My and others efforts are to keep RO reasonably free of these guys who come here to push crap gear, claming it's performance approaches that of the high end (which my opinion is, it doesn't) on the unsuspecting consumer.

Not to burst you bubble here but RO is FOR SALE. Anybody connected with the industry can buy this site and have the list of users here. If this were such a gold mine for them they would be bidding on it as we speak.

Open mouth change feet.

kingfrog hides behind a bullsh*t screen name and won't post a real picture of himself. He has been very ambiguous about what he really does for a living. In one post / thread he says he's from Branson MO ... and in another post / thread he says Las Vegas. hmmmm... both places that have a high concentration of large sound companies and equipment dealers. In another post frog says he sold his buddy an Art pre. These are all little clues he is letting slip through without realizing it. As I said, the more he posts, the deeper the hole he has dug, gets. I am going to see what I can suss out on this guy. The more he posts, the deeper the hole he digs for himself gets. Every time he posts he leaves a clue on the trail. All is cool! K.

My identity has no relavance. Only the words. . I have explained my background and what I do. You are free to make the decision whether Im credible or not. If people do not believe what I say or can relate to it...so be it.

Yeah Sherlock Holmes......clues.........the things I "let slip" point to me being a salesman....Lets see I encourage those to record whatever their budget and argue vs those who think otherwise.....yep Im a Shill.............I sold a piece of gear to my sax player an ART MP pre amp I have said on many occasions was replaced by a MEEK...yeah thats it I work for ART or is it Meek!! Stick with fishing man detective work is not you forte.

Im a friggin enduser who has used and made profit from low and mid range gear for 30 years and support that segment of the market because in my early days it was THOSE companies that opened the door for me. I have sold product made with that gear and never felt the need or desire to pay 300% more for 10% more quality. I do believe this is really whats bugging you. You can make salable product with mid range gear and yes Studios will and are going out of business which PROVES the point. I somehow think you are a victim of that.......but thats just my own humble opinion.

You seem to want to censor thought that is in disagreement with your own and are very biased due to something you went through or whatever. I do not see people being discouraged as a good thing . Maybe it's just me. But it appears that way not just in my posts but the diatribe with Duardo and others as well. I have read a lot of your responses in this forum and I have NEVER read a forum where a moderator actually discouraged people from participating in the very nature of the thread he is "moderating" Someone is doing you a grand favor.

*all the the above is personal opinion only......

What's with that? I guess frog knows he is slandering people and he want to cover his ass ....

Its simple...people forget that this only opinion and not fact........take a look in the mirror, Sherlock!

The more this all goes on, the more I suspect this guy is here on some sort of mission to carry out a specific agenda.

My agenda is to encourge not discourage those who cannot or choose not to play for the elite gear. My purpose is to let them know from my standpoint they CAN make a very nice sounding CD with that gear. That does not make me a shill. It does apply to MANY more Home recordists than not though.

frog wrote:
I am not going to defend my posts regarding Kurt.

Of course you won't. because you can't. Come on ... who the fu*% are you? Come out from behind that bullsh*t screenaname you use ... regeister with a real name and e mail addy .. What are you hiding or afraid of? (excuse me, I need to sneeze, chickensh*t! ... pardon me) Who are you really? I heve been registered here under the same name (real) for over 2 years now. Everyone knows who I am and what I have done.

I can and have. You NEED to have people know who you are. You Thrive on people knowing who you are and your "magnificent and worldly" accomplishments. Perhaps you enjoy celebrity. (Its not all its cracked up to be). Perhaps you feel you will have more credibility. I have no such need. If my words are not enough..I accept that.

Of course frog only wants to argue with me because he knows I have a rep for getting into squabbles. When others post telling him he's an idiot, it's an indication that he's waaaay off base, which screws up his world.

You indeed have a rep for getting into squabbles as a moderator. Perhaps you need to look into that yourself. Sproll is not an example of credibility here in my eyes...and the others formulate thought and opinion I do not find offensive.

frog, Where do you get off trying to tell people what to do here? You are not a moderator. You have no standing here. Quit trying to bully and shove people around. What a jerk!

I am not telling people WHAT to do. Im telling them They CAN do.
You on the other hand tell them what they CAN'T do. Big difference. And yes I would make a MUCH MUCH better moderator in a BUDGET GEAR forum than you. You are not very moderate LOL.

I do not post much in the PRO FORUM because I do not subscribe to the theory that you must have PRO gear to build a successful home studio as you do.

If that makes me a jerk......I humbly accept that moniker.

chickensh*t! No name, no credibility.

Im very proud of you in that you made excellent investments and ALL you gear made a profit for you before and after the sale...You are a business wiz. But others may not be as all knowing as you.

No secret it's not rocket science. Buy at half of retail (you can do this) .. or buy used. offer a good service and make money. When you're finished, sell the gear for the same amount or more than what you paid originally. This can be done as well because contrary to your assertions frog, real quality pro gear often appreciates, not the opposit. I'm not talking about Avalons or Manleys new stuff that is being pumped out at the factory every day ... but look at what a real LA2a sells for today vs 5 years ago ... The return is better than the stock market ... This is why there are so many vintage gear dealers. Thare's gold in them thar hills!

I started myself with cheap gear. I still use cheap gear from time to time. I use a 16 bit adat and a Yamaha MLA7 mic pre and Shure beta green 4.0 condenser and sm 57s to record my bands rehearsals. So don't say I tell people not to use cheap gear. Because I don't. I tell people that good stuff can be better and easier to get great sound from. I say quality counts. I say anyway to make your music better, quality or performance, do it.

Perhaps in your travels, you have access to people and numerous opprotunities to play your recordings and hopfully someday get some sort of deal. A lot of people don't have that luxury. They need to have it as good as possible if the chance should arise. The only way to be sure about this is to do the best work you possibly can with what you have. If you can swing a real mic pre, I think there is nothing else other than performance that can enhance your recordings and take them to the next level. Cheap out and you may be left to wonder ... "what if?"

Kurt Foster wrote:
Once again ... I never said that and your repeating the mantra endlessly in quotation marks will not make it so. If you're going to make comments on things I said, it would be better if they were actually things I said. Otherwise, you only make yourself look like a schmuck, especially when you don't even spell the words correctly.

frog wrote: I posted a link to you comment and you tried to explaine it away earlier.

We will try once more ... You painted me as "a moderator who should do the same rather then insinuate those who buy budget gear should not be allowed to record or are people he would not want to associate himself with......"
... Which is something I never said. In spite of the fact I posted a reply to that effect, you keep revisiting the comment and twisting the words.

What I really said was;

Kurt Foster wrote: Instead of looking at bringing down the bottom line, which in the end only short changes the client and yourself, look to ways to increase the value of the product and services you provide. Part of this for myself has been to be more selective about the clients I choose. I submit that perhaps someone who isn't will to bear the expense of quality recording, shouldn't be recording in the first place or at the least, is not someone I would want to be involved with.

I was speaking of clients for my recording studio ... my remarks had nothing to do with equipment at all, and you know that. Your continual return to that remark and attempts to further twist it into something else only shows you are willing to say anything to redeem yourself or to prove your feeble points... You admitted that you are a liar, you site at least 2 situations where you state "I should have lied" ... you twist others words into things they never said to further the advocation of using cheap gear. Why all the effort?

You try to make it look as if I am a gear snob .. and bitter. Not true. I still own and use some cheap gear ... midi verbs, quadra verb ... mackie and TEAC mixers, cheap pres and comps ... lots of cheap mics. My favorite new mic is the KEL HM1 ... under $100! I have been going to it quite often. But I still think that my U87 is a necessarry item too. So don't say I don't have or use budget gear cause that's not true.

I don't care so much that I don't have a studio anymore. To tell the truth, I was weary of dealing with know it all jerks such as yourself anyway. Things happen for a reason, I don't fight the river of life. I flow with it.

frog wrote: I would make a MUCH MUCH better moderator in a BUDGET GEAR forum than you. You are not very moderate

:lol:

That explains a lot ... listen, I didn't coin the term moderator and I don't subscribe to it. I look at myself as more a participant than a moderator. perhaps the better term for this type of position would be curator or sergeant at arms ..

Your remark though, finally shows where you're coming from as the new gun in town.
I could see you as a mod ... of a very boring forum where everyone sit around and congratulates each other on their latest $100 purchase and the rack crap manufacturers roam free ... Thanks, but no thanks.

Kurt Foster wrote:
I could see you as a mod ... of a very boring forum where everyone sit around and congratulates each other on their latest $100 purchase and the rack crap manufacturers roam free ... Thanks, but no thanks.

LOL - that's the best one I've heard all week Kurt!

You know, my whole standpoint on this subject is this. Cheap gear is not necessarily what I consider to be Budget gear. I consider Budget gear to be the "best bang for the buck", not the "cheapest thing you can buy on the rack". The point we are all trying to make is No, you don't need $1,500 pre-amps to record... but if you want to buy something that will really make a sonic difference in the way your mics sound, then buy this $350 Groove Tubes Brick. Why spend $100 on a Behringer pre-amp (which I have tried, along with a lot of other Behringer gear) when it does absolutely nothing to your sound? Why throw away that money? How does that make sense to you? Myself, I want to buy something that actually WORKS, but is not crazy expensive because I can't afford that. Not something that is designed so I can see the cheap Chinese tube in it and then put an LED behind it to "light up" the tube. :roll:

I have tried a lot of their gear, Mixers, Pre-amps, Monitors, Compresser/limiters, effects, and crossovers... and the only one I would consider using is their 3 way stereo crossover, and that is for live use not recording. And you know what, I'm not just anti-Behringer products... there is a lot of cheap junk out there from different companies that I avoid.

Bottom line - I don't have tons of cash, so I frequent this board and in particular this section because I want "The Best Bang for your Buck" gear. I don't want $100 useless crap. I'm not all about that. I'm not a 15 year old kid who is recording their punk band and wants to buy the cheapest possible gear. I enjoy what I do for my own band and maybe soon for others. I have been learning a lot on this board and from doing, and each of my recordings get better. I am a SMART consumer and I don't want to be throwing my money away on something that is slightly cheaper just because it is cheaper! I want good quality at lower prices. What you QueenToad cannot seem to understand is that we are in no way saying you need expensive gear otherwise you shouldn't be recording. No, we are not saying that. We are saying that this is a professional messageboard and not the Behringer messageboard... so if you ask for an opinion on budget gear you're going to get one from people who have used it, and have used the good gear so they know what to compare it to. We will do our best to point you in the right direction for lower priced products that still perform, so you in the end are NOT WASTING YOUR MONEY.

I myself think its a pretty good service and I am so happy that there are people on here to help me along the way. They are not here to cheat or lie to me. I have bought a $150 Studio Projects C1 mic, a used Delta 1010 card for $400, and a set of used Yamaha MSP-5's for around the same price all because they were recommended on this board and you know what, they work GREAT! They SMOKE most of the other budget gear I have tried, and guess what... they were cheap too.

So then... how do you respond to that? We want good, cheap, PERFORMING gear... and we as a group do not feel that certain Behringer products live up to these expectations. They are cheap, but they break easily and do not perform. How can you in your right mind recommend someone to go buy something when all they are doing is wasting their money on sub-par equipment. I would much rather wait another month or two, save up the money and buy something that works rather than buy something now that doesn't do anything to my audio quality and be out the money that I spent. The only reason I can think of for you to be recommending this gear is that you can't tell the difference between the quality of that and the good budget gear... and if that's the case, you shouldn't be posting your "highly informed" opinion on here to the rest of us. Instead you should sit down, shut up, and learn from the real pros.

End of my posting on this subject.

So then... how do you respond to that? We want good, cheap, PERFORMING gear... and we as a group do not feel that certain Behringer products live up to these expectations. They are cheap, but they break easily and do not perform. How can you in your right mind recommend someone to go buy something when all they are doing is wasting their money on sub-par equipment. I would much rather wait another month or two, save up the money and buy something that works rather than buy something now that doesn't do anything to my audio quality and be out the money that I spent. The only reason I can think of for you to be recommending this gear is that you can't tell the difference between the quality of that and the good budget gear... and if that's the case, you shouldn't be posting your "highly informed" opinion on here to the rest of us. Instead you should sit down, shut up, and learn from the real pros.

How do I respond? Well I agree. I never once recommended and single piece of Behringer gear on this or any forum. But I would if it was all someone could afford regardless of what a "group" thinks.

What I have said is: you do not need "state of the Art" gear. That was construed as "well if you care for your art you will buy the best." I simply don't subscribe and I am an example of that. I can afford the "best." I am no longer a poor musician. But with the quality of today's budget mid priced gear being what it is. There is no need for someone to feel like they are hurting their art by passing on expensive gear.

If all a person can afford is a $100 pre amp I say buy it, learn it. and use it until they feel it no longer suits thier needs. Sell it for $75 and move on. Don't spend 3x as much because someone else says you have to or what you have is crap. Encourage ....don't discourage.

People will find their own comfort zone in gear and don't need to be made to feel they have wasted their money, or do not deserve to record because they cannot or choose not to buy soley on the recommendations of a total stranger on a message board. Never buy or pass up audio gear based on someone else's opinion. Audio is way too subjective.

A good example are those Yamaha monitors... I think they are terrible and would rather keep my Monitor Ones. Thats an opinion. No one should act on that until they hear them for themselves.

Reviews of gear are a joke to me unless the reviewer is actually measuring the stated specs for accuracy and can attest to reliabilty. One person's tranparent sheen is another persons mud.
Audio reviews that only describe the audio quality are like movie reviews.

I can tell the difference in high end gear but the differences as the prices go up are of the hair splitting variety and more about reliabilty which is not an issue in a home studio thats not running 24/7.

I do not care what you think or what the" group" thinks. I offer my opinion. People can take it or leave it. It's just and opinion. Like yours and everybody elses.

In 1979 when I lived in LA I had the pleasure of sitting in with an engineer at A+M records during a tracking session for Gino Vanelli . He listened to my songs recorded on a Teac 3340 and an SM57 and a Radio Shack Spring reverb. It was a terrible recording and I asked him how I could make it better. He was kind to say the least. But he gave me advice I never forgot.

"Do not chase the signal chain"

What he ment was once you start buying the state of the art gear you are stuck into buying it ALL along the signal chain from mic to monitor to room treatment, otherwise you are wasting your money. YOu cant have a U87 ART MP DBX compressor Mackie board, low end monitors, and an untreated acoustic space..

Unless you are willing to make a HUGE investment in everything in the signal chain you are better of stayng away form any of that gear. It made a lot of sense to me and I have been very carefu to keep my gear in perspective to each other.

When I read stuff here like you need a $1000 pre amp without asking what the other gear the person has I have to shout "FOUL".
If you want that pre amp you had better have ALL the best of the other gear in the signal chain or you are not getting the full benifit of your investment. I do not subscribe to the theory that a $100 mike is going to sound great through a $1000 pre amp followed by a $200 compressor. .

If someone is going to build the least expensive home studio with ART, Digitech or Behringer gear . So be it. I applaud them for making the leap into a world of endless learning and enjoyment.

I would never tell them they have crap just because I can afford a few steps up. Encourage...don't discourage. They will have all the gear at a very sweet price point to learn with and put their music on CD to share with others .

If they are happy thats all that matters. . But once they replace one link in the chain with a high quality piece they are commited to replacing ALL the pieces other wise they are wasting their money and not gettting the full benifit of their purchase.

If they grow out of it..... great. If not thats ok too. In either case the end result will still be FAR better then my first attempts using a 4 track recorder.

`

I would be very interested in hearing some of your recordings kingfrog. How about sharing them by posting some in the Audio Projects forum?

kingfrog wrote: If all a person can afford is a $100 pre amp I say buy it, learn it. and use it until they feel it no longer suits thier needs. Sell it for $75 and move on

Chances are that no ones going to buy that $100 pre for $75. More like $40 -$50 if you're lucky. Half of retail is the rule of thumb, right? THat's what you said earlier. .

kingfrog wrote: People will find their own comfort zone in gear and don't need to be made to feel they have wasted their money, or do not deserve to record because they cannot or choose not to buy soley on the recommendations of a total stranger on a message board. Never buy or pass up audio gear based on someone else's opinion. Audio is way too subjective.

Again, no one said that anyone "didn't deserve to record". That is from you only. If someone says, "Wow! I could have had a real pre amp" that's more likely due to them listening to someone who thinks like you do, rather than anyone who advised them not to settle for less than the best they could do. There is not one time that someone has reported disappointment in the results after they followed that advice that I know of. Lots of times where people have said, I wish I had listened to you ...

kingfrog wrote: I can tell the difference in high end gear but the differences as the prices go up are of the hair splitting variety and more about reliabilty which is not an issue in a home studio thats not running 24/7.

Actually, I think the home studio environment can be harder on gear. Often gear like mic pres aren't run through patch bays so the connections are plugged and unplugged almost on a daily basis. Connectors that are mounted to the PCB are likely to break or short sooner than those of nutted to the chassis. Pieces are handled more often in a home studio, sometimes not even rack mounted. IMO the home studio environment can be in some cases, much more challenging that the professional. As you point out the financially challenged can't afford to waste money. The best way to keep from visiting the repair shop every week is to buy quality gear in the first place. better build quality, better service, better warrenties. As far as sound quality, it's obvious to me that some people don't hear what others do ... but once again you are not the arbitrator of all that and neither am I. The best thing for everyone is to listen to opinions on both sides and once armed with that knowledge, go out and make a choice based on what they hear and see. But all opinions are valid input, even misguided ones.

kingfrog wrote: I do not care what you think or what the" group" thinks. I offer my opinion. People can take it or leave it. It's just and opinion. Like yours and everybody elses.

Then why have you have spent the last few days enforcing your opinions on this and other threads? You seem to have a problem "leaving" other opinions ... The same can be said for me but I didn't just make that statement. Unlike you, it does matter to me what "the group" thinks. It's a battle every day for the "hearts and minds" of the community as far as I'm concerned.

kingfrog wrote: I do not subscribe to the theory that a $100 mike is going to sound great through a $1000 pre amp followed by a $200 compressor.

This from someone who just said;

kingfrog wrote: with the quality of today's budget mid priced gear being what it is. There is no need for someone to feel like they are hurting their art by passing on expensive gear.

You seem to not understand the basics. Mics have a very low output that must be boosted to line levels before they can be recorded or processed. Good mic pres do less damage in the amplification process than cheap ones do because they have decent power supplies that don't run out of headroom and crap out on the bass, phase and transients. Beyond that point to point wiring and or large PCB traces carry the signal through the device more efficiently. Better designs nut connectors to the cases so they don't break after a couple of years. Through the board hand construction as opposed to robot stuffed surface mount techniques are far simpler to repair and will be serviceable years after the unit has gone out of production and they can usually be repaired on site by a qualified tech.

Advances in mics from China have put decent mics in the hands of recordists. Design advances have made some inexpensive compressors that work surprisingly well considering their prices .. the FMR RNC is a good example. The Alesis comp when modified can work pretty well too .. but comps don't require the joules that a good mic pre does. IMO there is nothing that can improve the sound of a recording as much as a quality mic pre. Even cheap mics like the 57 will benefit from a great preamp.

kingfrog wrote: If someone is going to build the least expensive home studio with ART, Digitech or Behringer gear . So be it. I applaud them for making the leap into a world of endless learning and enjoyment ..... I would never tell them they have crap just because I can afford a few steps up. Encourage...don't discourage. They will have all the gear at a very sweet price point to learn with and put their music on CD to share with others .... If they are happy thats all that matters.

No one will argue with that. I just don't think they should take themselves too seriously at that point.

Let me put it this way. I like NASCAR raceing. I can't afford a NASCAR racer though. What would you think about my getting a Geo to race with? It's all I can afford. If I take my Geo to Las Vegas, do you think they will let me on the track to race? Will I be able to compete? Or will the NASCAR officials "squash my dreams" and send me home? Was I an idiot for trying to enter the race with a Geo?

:roll:

OK looking forward to it. I will not comment on them either. I just want to hear someting from you and let others do the same.

Thanks ... K.

I placing a song on Nowhere and it should be available soon. This is a track I have had critiqued by those whom are succesful still and have some respect in the industy and it will be interesting to see what others heres say. I will reveal the comments I recieved after board members take their shots. Including you Kurt.

song available for critique

Ok Song is in Audio Projects section

Take your shots....... :)

This is a tune recorded and mixed in a spare 11x12' bedroom in my home on a Pentium III using an Aardvark L6 and all budget gear (including, Mackie mixer and Alesis Monitor Ones) with no room treatment except for window drapes...make your own judgements.......I can handle it.
:D

:shock:

WOW, just wow

well I have to add my 2 cents

I think anyone with half a brain will know a $250 mixer will not compare with a $10,000 digital mixer

But like I said before, I feel Behringer equipment is a great tool to get started with, I cannot believe anyone would consider buying top of the line when they are starting out, and learning on a piece of inexpensive equipment, then upgrading is completely logical.

PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 4:03 am Reply with quoteBack to top

kingfrog wrote:
If someone is going to build the least expensive home studio with ART, Digitech or Behringer gear . So be it. I applaud them for making the leap into a world of endless learning and enjoyment ..... I would never tell them they have crap just because I can afford a few steps up. Encourage...don't discourage. They will have all the gear at a very sweet price point to learn with and put their music on CD to share with others .... If they are happy thats all that matters.

No one will argue with that. I just don't think they should take themselves too seriously at that point.

I disagree, I think they should take it VERY seriously, I have, and still have some Behringer stuff, and have had it for years, still works, and well I might add

Do I know that my $250 Behringer board needs to be replaced, yes I do, am I upset I got it, NO WAY, I have learned so much with my little board. and the quality is not so HORRIBLE that it is unusable. I have gotten my $'s worth out of it in a big way

I know behringer stuff is certainly not top of the line, but it has its place, and faces undue critisism from this board.

No one will argue with that. I just don't think they should take themselves too seriously at that point.

Just to clear the record that quote is Kurt's response to my comment.

I agree with you. Enjoy the process with whatever gear yo have at your disposal and within your financial means. You are correct to take yourself seriously as well with what you do with what you have.

I don't have the TOL gear and can't imagine taking myself any more or less seriously if I did...Where's the logic there? You got your money's worth in the enjoyment of the process and the learning as well. If and when you step up the buttons, knobs and lights will be the same and you already know what they do...........

I agree w/ crispytheone88 to a pretty substantial extent.

I'm still young and learning, and figuring things out for myself. My current (and still my first) mixer is a Behringer, simply b/c I'm a poor college student who didn't see the point in spending more than he could afford: particularly if I haven't yet honed my chops and my ears to hear the real difference yet. So I went w/ a device that could help me learn about the most features for the least amount of money.

I don't ever intend to work as an engineer in a studio for a living, but if some local band wants to record, I will do it for them for next to nothing (or nothing at all sometimes). If a band really wants a commercial sounding CD, I also won't hesitate to say "look, you're not going to get this out of me anytime soon, and you're going to need to actually spend a lot more money for a pro engineer."

I realize that this is something that Kurt (and others, but Kurt springs to mind immediately) has specifically said angers him about the effect of cheap gear on the industry, but I'd like to offer some perspective on the situation.

The primary goal I have when using this stuff is to figure out how things work, and also to maximize my skills. It's much harder to get things to sound good when they aren't top-shelf, so all the extra elbow grease I put into recording now will work to my advantage later when I step up in gear (I would like to think anyway).

I also will be an electrical engineer when I get my degree. And I want to be building and designing audio gear. What's the point of designing something you don't know enough about to maximize it's potential? And one of the best ways to see potential is to find flaws. For every piece of boutique, vintage gear in the world I'm sure there is a flaw. That's how engineering works: you make trade-offs in performance.

The second goal I have when using this stuff is to have fun w/ it, and maybe figure out things about how music is made. The vast majority of my recordins since I began 4 years ago has been setting up and recording some friends jamming w/ me. It's something I would be doing for fun anyway. I consider it a bonus that I am also training myself to hear good/bad parts in my recording techniqes at the same time.

To use the car example: you don't learn to drive in a $250,000 car. It doesn't make sense. I got this gear to use it, to break it, to figure out how not to break it, and to put in some time at the School of Hard Knocks before I invest in something that will cost an arm and a leg to repair.

I'm just now feeling that I'm beginning to outgrow my gear, and I have no problem with that: I knew this was an expensive hobby when I started, and I also knew I would probably outgrow it eventually. I feel I got more than my money's worth out of it.

I can hear the difference b/t the cheapest gear much better stuff, but there's little I can do about it. I'd rather have functionality w/ mediocre results than high-end, pricey performance w/ mediocre results. I'm not there yet. I was already doing things to the best of my current ability w/o the added expenses, and I'm actually glad that I can hear the flaws in all my cheapo stuff (it means I'm improving).

While this argument seems to have boiled over, I think I do agree w/ both Kurt and Frog @ various levels. I'd love to have Kurt's gear, and I wouldn't turn it down if offered to me for free. On the other hand, just b/c I can tell the difference doesn't mean that the vast majority of people who buy this stuff can. Behringer/Alesis/etc. are marketing to musicians who don't know about recording, and who will probably never learn to be great engineers anyway. That's why the market is so big for cheap gear: to these musicians, a pre-amp is a pre-amp and a mixer is a mixer (although they do seem to respond well to the argument that different mics have different timbres).

I also just want to add that I think bashing any gear, be it Behringer or Neve is very inappropriate in the Home Studio Forum. There are lots of people like me reading this who may have made a mistake and purchased something awful, or maybe were given something their older brother decided he would never use. They might know better, they might not. They're here to learn. And telling them they're screwed and will never get anything they like out of their gear is not conducive to learning.

While it seems Kurt does have the best interest of RO users in mind when he fights against buying what he considers crap, sometimes the best thing to do is to bite your lip, and offer his wisdom anyway. I think even he has to agree that there is still a big difference f/ something that is done well but limited by the tools than something that was done poorly regardless of the tools used.

A friend bought a Behringer bass cab recently and it did sound good for the price. Unfortunately it started buzzing near the end of the night, and that was playing it quitely.

The new behringer Bass cabs, well the 4x10 with aluminum cones, sounds quite good, they do make some good stuff, but some stuff is cheap, not horrible, just cheap, while a few Items, like the Bass Cabs, can be used and considered professional

sproll wrote: [quote=crispytheone88]I don't think anyone wants you to stop commenting, every opinion counts, just refrase it and understand that most people asking about Behringer, are obviously not experienced for example, instaed of

Behringer Suck

or

All Behringer is crap

In my defense, I don't believe I ever just said Behringer suck without stating why, or said all Behringer is crap. However, that is neither here nor there.... point taken.

I have just become a member of this newsgroup and am avidly reading the wisdoms (and otherwise) of contributors. I started in the budget gear section and was intrigued to read the above; and then to read a thread from two days earlier, in the same budget section, [subject Behringer B2030A Truth (sorry if its been asked before) ], and saw the following quote from the same contributor: "Crap! Same as all other Behringer gear... crap! :P "

At least it had a smiley following it, and you did say you that it was your belief that you had not said it.

Anyway, I am not trying to finger anyone, just to point out that many of us newbies will come online and assume that this group has a lot of expertise and will trust what is said even when it might actually be tongue in cheek. So go easy on us, keep it balanced and objective please.

I will be making my own contributions later, see you then.

regards

db

"Behringer/Alesis/etc. are marketing to musicians who don't know about recording, and who will probably never learn to be great engineers anyway. That's why the market is so big for cheap gear"

Yep! You hit the nail on the head ... and why do these companies aim at this market? Because they know they can pawn off sub standard stuff on this segment of the buying public.

To use the car example: you don't learn to drive in a $250,000 car. It doesn't make sense. I got this gear to use it, to break it, to figure out how not to break it, and to put in some time at the School of Hard Knocks before I invest in something that will cost an arm and a leg to repair. "

The analogy of using a cheap car to "learn to drive", doesn't convince me at all. If Behringer made cars, chances are the NTSB wouldn't allow them on the highways due to safety factors. I advocate is that recordists practice "safe recording" as well ... and at least with Neve or similar type gear, it can be repaired although that kind of gear is pretty robust. An example .. I had an RNP here that took a very short fall off the top of the rack, 3 feet to the carpeted floor. One of the volume pot shafts snapped right off. On the other hand, a few years ago, one of my AMEK NEVE 9098 EQ's took a similar fall directly to its face / knobs, onto a hardwood parquet floor over a concrete slab and sustained absolutely no damage. I suspect a similar fall would have destroyed a Behringer product. I was told to send the RNP back for replacement rather than repair. The things are made so cheap, it's more cost effective to replace the whole unit instead of fixing it.

It's a FACT that there are many who have reported a pleasant experience with Behringer gear. My experience is just as many complain that Behringer gear has broken, failed and in some cases spontaneously combusted in the rack while not even in use. More so than with any other brand. So what's with that? Add to that, most will readily admit almost anything sounds better. The internet is rife with these kinds of comments.

Anyone who wishes to make a testimonial about how well their Behringer gear has served them, just consider yourselves among the fortunate and take comfort in that. Remember, for each of you, there is someone else out there, that can relate a horror story about that same piece of gear. The same cannot be said about quality stuff. It's your choice and don't let us stop you from needlessly wasting your money on that stuff.

But please don't go around the internet, recommending it and then registering surprise, indigence or disdain when everyone does not agree with you.

And with that, I think it's time to close this thread. This poor horse has been whipped enough. Thanks to all who have contributed.. Kurt