2. Why is there such a snobbery in this business when people mention Behringer products ?

Because Behringer has a doubly bad reputation.

1) They make cheap Chinese junk - no QC, no consistency, no reliability.

2) They rip off other companies directly and with impunity. From Aphex's Aural Exciter to Mackie's VLZ-Pro mixer line to Ebtech's SwizzArmy Tester, they've reverse engineered dozens of products in order to make their copycats, and then tie up those whose patents and copyrights they infringed upon in court for years, thus ensuring their ability to make gobs of money off said product before relenting with an out of court settlement.

There's a really big difference between a company like Marshall Electronics or Nady who make cheap products that they design themselves, and someone like Behringer who cuts the whole R&D step right out of their equation.

Behringer is a direct threat to audio innovation, simply because the small companies they prey on these days (like Ebtech) are less inclined to even release a new product for fear that Behringer will hijack their design and undercut them with a clone.

Those opinions are valid Griffinator.

And can be applied more so to the guitar industry where more Fender and Gibson clones have been made than anything I can think of.

And I see no problem with you or anyone else saying exactly what you think the probs and business practices of a company are.

This whole Behringer thing seems to me to be a re-recording of the old computer arguement that used to circulate in the early days of computing ...if it's not IBM its a rip off and shouldnt be on the shelves.

Where would we be if we had to rely only on IBM for our computers? or their designs hadnt been copied.

Maybe Behringer need to rename their stuff Mackie compatable to satisfy people.

Nice reply Griffinator ... very astute and concise. I would add the main reason a lot of us don't type the whole word behringer is because everytime it appears in a thread, a new link on the web is created... some of us don't want to do that for them..

To be fair, Behringer isn't the only company to get this treatment.. I do this regularly with other stuff too.

I'd be interested to know which of Behringer's mixers you guys think is/are a clone/rip off(s) of the Mackie VLZ pro range.

And whether you also consider the Mackie CFX and DFX ranges to be unique in their designs.

Originally posted by Griffinator:

2.
1) They make cheap Chinese junk - no QC, no consistency, no reliability.

2) They rip off other companies directly and with impunity. From Aphex's Aural Exciter to Mackie's VLZ-Pro mixer line to Ebtech's SwizzArmy Tester, they've reverse engineered dozens of products in order to make their copycats, and then tie up those whose patents and copyrights they infringed upon in court for years, thus ensuring their ability to make gobs of money off said product before relenting with an out of court settlement.

wow those are serious charges, I'd like to read more about it if you have a link to something...

Originally posted by Paul Andrews:
Those opinions are valid Griffinator.

And can be applied more so to the guitar industry where more Fender and Gibson clones have been made than anything I can think of.

And I see no problem with you or anyone else saying exactly what you think the probs and business practices of a company are.

This whole Behringer thing seems to me to be a re-recording of the old computer arguement that used to circulate in the early days of computing ...if it's not IBM its a rip off and shouldnt be on the shelves.

Where would we be if we had to rely only on IBM for our computers? or their designs hadnt been copied.

Maybe Behringer need to rename their stuff Mackie compatable to satisfy people.

No, now you're comparing apples and oranges.

First off, Gibson and Fender clones didn't start surfacing until their respective patents expired. There's nothing illegal about what any of the "clone" companies did. Behringer ignored the patents and copyrights on all the equipment they copied. They got sued, twice. Once by Aphex (out-of-court settlement) and once by Mackie (whose established patents in the US weren't considered valid enough to protect their interests in a German courtroom)

I spoke personally with the R&D man at Ebtech when Behringer first dropped their direct clone of the Ebtech Swizz Army Tester. He explained to me that they weren't going to sue because

1) They felt that litigation would bring negative publicity to their company, and
2) They were concerned about Behringer's ability to tie the case up in court until Ebtech was bankrupt from the legal fees.

All you need for evidence is a quick Google search - "Behringer", "patent infringment"

The legal battles with Mackie and Aphex are well known and well documented.

Oh - and IBM licensed their designs to other manufacturers. There was no theft involved.

I did the google search and all I found was that mackie and behringer settled out of courts but there were no details... if anyone has a link to something with more substance, I'd like to read more on it...

Much of the info that was on the web regarding this question was placed by Mackie and was removed a couple of months ago in concordance with an out of court settlement Berhringer reached with Mackie. It was (and is) however a real issue and many of us have seen and followed this issue over the years. This is not something we all made up.

Behringers 8 bus mixer was at the center of this debate and it is well known that Behringer continues to make crappy knock offs of many products.. If you wish to turn a blind eye to this so that you can save a buck and still sleep, go for it. Owning the product should be punishment enough. This reminds me of neo ultra-right-wingers that insist that the holocoust never happened.

on the contrary to turning a blind eye I really wanted to know since I have never read anything concrete on the subject-

Originally posted by maintiger:
on the contrary to turning a blind eye I really wanted to know since I have never read anything concrete on the subject-

OK... I am a bit sensitive to this because we have had a few flames on this subject.. there are actually some much nastier things that have been said regarding Behringer but it is difficult, if not impossible to substanciate. Anyway it is a thorny subject. But most of us who have been doing audio for any length of time, know the stories.

It's a free market society, and if you want to buy their stuff, you are welcome to. Since freedom also means freedom to slam their stuff, please let people do that also if they wish.

I own a couple of Behringer things, the Aphex Exciter ripoff and a pair of their ECM8000 omni mics. The Exciter was given to me as a gift, and it works ok for the one in a hundred times I need that sort of weird distortion. The mics were highly recommended by Harvey Gerst, and he was right about their bang-for-the-buck value.

I may actually buy their Ultra-Whatever the name is digital EQ/RTA just for the RTA, if my research shows it to be decently accurate.

They ripped off a few designs, for sure. I think Aphex and Mackie nailed them with a lawsuit and Behringer settled with them. Theft is indeed still theft, and if a design is patented, then the courts are the best recourse.

But if you really look at what's going on, Vintech is making nice Rupert Neve designed preamps, John Oram is making crap with the Trident name on it, Stephen Paul invented the technology for 3 micron, 1.5 micron and sub micron diaphragms, and got almost zero recognition for his amazing innovations while others cloned and profited from his work, Chandler is making EMI designs, OSA is making API stuff, and this tiny little industry goes round and round and round while everyone makes stuff that someone else designed.

How many royalty checks or even thank you's do you think George Massenburg gets from this industry for inventing the parametric eq?

Buy something because it works for you, Paul. If people don't like it, tough cookies on them. Show them up by the quality of work you're able to conjure out of a Behringer Ultra-Whatever.

But respect other's right to not like it, not buy it, or even slam it if they wish.

Originally posted by Screws:

Buy something because it works for you, Paul. If people don't like it, tough cookies on them. Show them up by the quality of work you're able to conjure out of a Behringer Ultra-Whatever.

But respect other's right to not like it, not buy it, or even slam it if they wish.

Hi Screws thanks for the post
Yes I do buy stuff I like whether or not people have issues with it.

And I most certainly do respect anyones right to bag any product if they feel there is something 'dodgy' about it.

I'm still interested in some of the statements made that I havent been able to substantiate ... I like to research things thoroughly then make my own mind up based on facts.

I still don't see any direct comparisons between the VLZ pro range and any of Behringers products and even if web pages were removed because of a settlement agreement there should be reference to material in the law society documents, I have yet to find any, in any country so far, so if someone has that info I'd like a pointer to it.

Thanks everyone for your replies.

EVERY TIME I POST WHAT I THINK ABOUT BEHRINGER STUFF, THEY JUMP ON ME....I HAVE 2 COMORESSORS AND A MIXER 2004A....THEY SOUND SOOOOOOO GOOD......THEY HAVE WORKED WELL FOR ME FOR YEARS....I DO NOT KNOW ABOUT ALL THIS OTHER STUFF, BUT I DO KNOW HOW MUCH I LIKE MY BEHRINGER THINGS......

Originally posted by Dr.Blackwell:
EVERY TIME I POST WHAT I THINK ABOUT BEHRINGER STUFF, THEY JUMP ON ME

Thats a bit sad cos ultimately what gets posted here reflects on the whole of the site ... and one of the reasons I joined was because this site was promoted as a no BS site.

Originally posted by Paul Andrews:
... ultimately what gets posted here reflects on the whole of the site ... and one of the reasons I joined was because this site was promoted as a no BS site.

Criticism can be leveled at almost anything regardless if it is called for or not. I think in this particular situation, it is not. I would like to ask how would you do it differently Paul? Should we delete posts and threads that are deemed "BS"? And who should be the arbitrator of what is and is not "BS"?

In an effort to be more responsive to the registered members of RO and due to many comments they have made in the past regarding how this upsets them, we have recently been going to great lengths to not delete topics and posts.

On the other hand I see it as unreasonable to expect that moderators or administrators should not have opinions or take a stand on any subject. Moderators are members too and as was pointed out, everyone should be free to express themselves. Mods too!

When someone levels this type of uncalled for criticism at RO, the mods and administration, it only makes us want to start deleting things if for no other reason than to keep the peace. Along with the “right” to “free speech”, comes the responsibility of using it in a constructive manner. You do not have a right to go into a crowded theater and shout “FIRE!”.

We promote the site as no "BS" because we try not to allow personal attacks and insults, indecent language and we ask that members treat each other with a modicum of respect. Other than those kinds of posts and posts that fall outside of editorial boundaries (posting of reviews on the BB), our policy is to allow everything to stand.

Thanks Kurt for your reply
I was replying to point in the post which said "they jump on me" just because he posts about his Behringer gear

I agree that anyone has the right to their opinions I just like to see hard facts before I take what people on the internet say as the truth.

Of course as far as me asking someone "what does a Pair of Westlakes sound like" and having them telling me what they sound like to them ... I have to believe them and take their opinions and obviously far greater experience as fact.. cos I'll never get close enough to find out myself.

But as I said before I did a few searches and it was rather sad to see the bashing going on.... fair comment I enjoy .. and even light hearted ragging of gear but some seem to bash without real knowledge or experience.

I've seen some of your posts Kurt and while I dont agree with some of your comments I reckon you talk through experience most of the time (I dont know what experience you've had with the cheaper mixers) but I like that straight talking no nonsense attitude.

I have no experience of either Behringer or Mackie desks so I can't comment on any aspect of either of them if someone tells me something is good/bad I'll take their comments on board and make my own decisions based on my own experiences.

I certainly wasnt trying to shout FIRE!!! or anything else.. just asking what I thought were reasonable questions ... if you or any other mod feel those questions or any of my comments were innapropriate please feel free to zap em ... or me if you have to.

As for the bit about me doing it differently I would say probably not.. and not even probably as good but I think the big picture IS important... like spelling the name properly so peeps can search and giving a honest answer based on experience .. overall thats the impression folks get of a site when they first visit and if they see a lot of bashing they are less likely to stay and contribute.

I wasnt at any stage levelling complaints at you or any particular member here or anywhere else ... rather saying lets keep it objective ... thats all.

I still don't see any direct comparisons between the VLZ pro range and any of Behringers products

What is there to really compare? Since the B-boys steal, copy and clone from others, it is likely to sound the same but is very highly unlikely that it is going to sound any better. And since the B-boys take many additional shortcuts, it is very likley it is going to sound worse and be less reliable as a product on top of that. So any bashing of these butt-heads is welcome and justified because they have gone out of their way to make it so.

Well the whole quote was this

"I still don't see any direct comparisons between the VLZ pro range and any of Behringers products and even if web pages were removed because of a settlement agreement there should be reference to material in the law society documents, I have yet to find any, in any country so far, so if someone has that info I'd like a pointer to it."

And it was dealing with the question of whether the law suit actually proved that a patent design had been copied.

I found some info .. it relates to 1997 and was from the UK seems the judge threw the case out on a loophole in the then UK patent law ... so in my book nothing was proved by either party and I see no mention of any out of court agreement.

I also noticed that "100" companies where cited by Mackie re alleged patent copying, I can't (yet) find the outcomes of any of those cases either but it looks like Behringer wasn't the only company involved just that they seem to be getting ALL the blame.

Which Behringer model are you saying is the copy of the VZL? and what "additional shortcuts" do they take ?

Most of the small format mixers you see on the market are copies of the Mackie paradigm. There really wasn't a mixer like that on the market till Mackie released it in the late '80s/early '90s.

You look at an already inexpensive product, like the Mackie, and then compare it to the price of a Behringer knockoff and SOMETHING has to give! Dollars to donuts, the Behringer has cheaper electronic components, which means lower performance.

Yes, their prices are good. Yes, their gear works. No, I don't own any. I don't intend on owning any of their gear any time soon, either. I'd rather buy a used 01V than a new DDX mixer. I'd rather support a company that tries to develop it's own stuff than leeching off others. Their DI boxes look an awful lot like their competition's as well.

Behringer gear is good as a stopgap, but I'd prefer to save up and suffer a little while longer and buy something better.

The Neve clone thing is a little ridiculous, too - how many 35 year old console preamp clones can the market support? Does EVERYONE but me really desire all that color all the time? I don't know - I guess it's the field of dreams thing. You build a better mousetrap and people want it.

Which Behringer model are you saying is the copy of the VZL? and what "additional shortcuts" do they take ?

I don't keep track of the model numbers of the crap they make. I know that when I see one in a music store and it has the same layout, features, same pots, knobs, knob colors, faders, same amount of LED's, ect... that is hard to deny that I am looking at a near perfect copy.

Shortcuts. As in if they can use two screws instead of three they do. As in if they can sub any cheaper part that is anywhere close in function reguadless of how that affects the sound quality or product reliability, they do. As in if they can buy and use parts that other companies have rejected for not meeting their basic performance criteria, they do. Many more examples can be cited as well.

The Neve clone thing is a little ridiculous, too - how many 35 year old console preamp clones can the market support? Does EVERYONE but me really desire all that color all the time?

Well, some of the best music every perfromed and recorded was done on Neve consoles where every vocal, instrument and channel was used with that type of color and nothing else. But I do agree, that the clone thing is way over done. Rupert Neve himself is said to be jumping back in with improved versions of his old stuff so he can also cash in and mabe upset the clone makers.

Erm, one thing i don't get:

B. clones a product according to some, that would mean that they've actually bought the A-brand super trooper device, openened it and replicated it using the same components...this would be design theft indeed which is bad. These people subsequently say that 'it's a piece of cr*p"...Here's my problem: its one way or the other IMHO...it cant be cloned and cr*p simulteanously can it?

just for arguments sake,
best regards,
Bob.

Here's my problem: its one way or the other IMHO...it cant be cloned and cr*p simulteanously can it?

Yes and No. First off, they are copying and cloning stuff that is considered crap by most professionals to start with so it never gets any better. With something like the Mackie clone mixers, first it is copied/cloned and this may or may not be hurried to market. People compare them and get the buzz going that they are as good as who they copied from, send some out for reviews. For the other times when they wait or soon after while the first batches are shipping, the shortcuts I mentioned are implemented. If you'll notice a great deal of the B-boys models don't last very long in their product line before another model quickly takes it place. They keep tweaking the design and product with as many shortcuts and cutbacks as they can to squeeze out the profit margin yet still have you believe that the product is as good or better than the product they stole, and copied from. This is also another way to avoid geting punished for their crimes as by the time the legal actions can be implemented, they have made enough changes and versions that they now have a different product but that is still based on the copied/cloned design.

Thats the kind of honest, informed, objective comment based on experience with a product I was looking for.

:d:

Originally posted by Paul Andrews:
Thats the kind of honest, informed, objective comment based on experience with a product I was looking for.

:d:

"what does a Pair of WestLakes sound like"....I CAN TELL YOU THIS..WESTLAKES ARE MY FAVORITE, HANDS DOWN...I LOVE THE SOUND OF WESTLAKES....ALSO SOME PEOPLE THINK THE BEHRINGER STUFF SOUNDS BETTER THAN THE M-BOYS...I THOUGHT THEY CHANGED TO MAKE IT SOUND BETTER AND BETTER,WITH EACH NEW MOD....SHOWS WHAT I KNOW...I HAVE SEEN SOME CHEAP JUNK FROM BEHRINGER THAT I WOULD NOT HAVE...BUT THE BEHRINGER THINGS I HAVE SOUND GREAT...

[ January 07, 2004, 04:52 PM: Message edited by: Dr.Blackwell ]

Paul, it seems to me that you don't really want the truth on this issue.

The way you're positioning yourself, it sounds like you want someone to say "Yeah, Behringer's great, I use it all the time"

You're obviously agitated about the fact that the majority of people around here dislike Behringer, and you refuse to accept the reasons.

Mackie brought into that UK court a complete design spec of the 8-bus that Behringer ripped off. They also brought in one of the series that Behringer reverse engineered. One of the first and most damning pieces of evidence against Behringer was that the lot from which Behringer's subject for reverse-engineering had a design flaw on the PCB - and Behringer copied that design flaw in their own "version" of the mixer.

But you know what? I'll do you one better. I'll show you a couple of pictures of what Behringer did to Ebtech (I already explained why they aren't suing, if you can't accept that reality then you really don't know anything about big corporations and the kind of business they do)

Here ya go.

The original Ebtech Swizz Army 6 in 1 cable tester:

The Behringer CT100 cable tester:

Now you tell me, Paul. What's the damned difference between these two units?

One's $99.99, the other is $39.99. One is Blue, the other is Gray. One says Ebtech, the other says Behringer.

Hi Griffinator
I'm not denying what people say ..I just ask for proof of their statements.

I'm not looking for people to say Behringer is good stuff .. I dont care whether it is or not.
I dont own any and I'm not looking to buy any

The mixer thing just doesnt seem to hold up... I saw some stuff on the law suit and there were over 100 companies cited, Samson was another but only one seems to get the bashing... I dont know if its justified or not, I was interested and still am, why one of one hundred seems to be singled out when Mackie seemed to have cause to think others were doing the same thing.

When someone tells me something is a clone of something else and I ask which one they think is the clone... I get no straight answer...

Or I get an answer which says they are a clone but they are not as good and probably worse and that they must do this and must do that... all without proof or even without people having even taken a look at them..

In the law suit Simon Ash from Samson even said Mackie were trying to steal Behringer designs so I dont know what the truth is... and NO I dont accept any of it but I do want to hear what people think, just dont ask me to agree with something I can't qualify to myself.

I've seen lots of claims that people say Behringer are guilty of Slave labor, cloning, cutting corners..etc... nothing wrong with those opinions, but when I ask how they know I dont get any straight answers.

Yes I can see those 2 items are very alike I dont know whats in em but outside they look almost identical apart from the color and a couple of other bits..

Not sure what other designs you can use for a 6 in 1 cable tester but if I was copying one I would try to make it look different to the competetor just on the basis of not wanting it to be labelled as a copy.

You seem to think I'm on the side of Behringer ..I'm not .. I'm not on anybody's side or looking for endorsements of any product, If a court of law proved they had stolen a patent design that would be one thing if someone on a web site tells me so and then wont substantiate that claim thats less convincing.

I just think here where some people ARE knowledgable there should be perhaps a little more objectivity when it comes to making a statement on a particular subject, than saying well they must have done this and that because they have to be doing something....

Please dont expect me to ever take that arguement as a reasonable one...

If I told you Behringer designed that 6 in 1 first and Ebtech copied it you'd rightly ask for proof of such a statement... if I wrote back and said well they must have cos they look the same and they are too small a company to have thought of it themselves...blah blah blah... you'd dismiss what I said as rubbish.... those are the answers I get when I ask for clarification on some of the claims against Behringer... what do you expect me to do? ... just accept them without asking for further info?

Will never happen

I became a member of this newsgroup to leave mediocrity behind. I don't care about mediocre products any more because I have used and owned them and I know they don't sound like what I want my gear to sound like. If anyone else wants to use mediocre equipment and produce mediocre sounding great songs fine but I would prefer to be educated on what will make great sounding great songs. I would prefer if the names B**inger, A*t etc... were never even mentioned at all because that is another worthles post that I have to read through on my quest for knowledge. I will be sorely disappointed if the people here that I have come to respect start talking about junk(my opinion just happens to be a fact too).
Resident student,
Kent

Paul,
It sure seems like you are going to awfully long lengths to defend Be****ger and it appears to me that you started this thread just for that reason. I think you started this as an effort to try to salvage Be****ger's reputation on this site.

RO has a reach, far and wide and it has been proven to me beyond a shadow of a doubt that events here do have an effect on the sales of manufacturers. I do not think it is beyond the realm posibility that someone from Be****ger would come over here to try to do this. I know for a fact that this has happened with other manufacturers.

You ask for proof but you know (or have already been told) that a lot of that info has been deleted off the web as part of the out of court settlement between Samson, Be****ger and Mackie. IMO, this is a dead issue. Let's lock this puppy and move on ....