Sorry for the double negative in the second paragraph....I'm too distraught to sound intelligent.

Sorry for the double negative in the second paragraph....I'm too distraught to sound intelligent.

Wow that's a shitty thing to happen. I guess quite a few people are hurting. I'm in Cleveland, officially the most impoverished city in the nation, so I see it everyday.

You have the passion and if you make yourself known, you will prevail.
Remember, the squeaky wheel gets the oil. It's a stupid old saying but, of all the many, many interns I've interviewed over the years, It's the one's that kept calling and calling and calling that got the position.

Here's hoping the best of luck to you.

Chris

Yeah....an especially crappy day today. I feel so let down with Christmas coming up. The real kicker is that I'm only 22 and my mother is my dependent....not vice versa. I'm the one that brings in most of the bread and she gets paid cash so can't claim an income. She doesn't have insurance (can't afford it) and was diagnosed with a cancerous lump in July. She is my dependent on my tax return, and I still can't get grants for schooling! I see people who have parents that make great money and they get grants...go figure.

I was counting on making this Christmas a great one....I was going to buy my mom a new stereo because she loves blasting Frampton through the house every Sunday when she is cleaning. I was going to have that choir CD mastered for my girlfriend for our anniversary (Dec 3rd...the day of doom). Ah well....enough belly aching....I'm going to keep my head up and be the squeekiest f'ing wheel I can possibly be. I'm sorry for letting all this out in the forum guys....but I don't have anywhere else to let it out.

Thanks LittleDog!

Art

No prob.

What's the deal with the mastering thing?

Chris

I was looking around to master a recording of my girlfriends old choir. They did a tour through Canada and were recorded in a small church...bad recording, but probably one of the best performances I've ever heard hands down. She doesn't have the time to sing anymore and when she listens to this CD she just falls apart because it was such a huge part of her life. She hasn't taken the CD out of her CD player in over a year.

One person was kind enough to give me a great offer before this happened today, and I'm just going to wait out getting this mastered until her birthday in May rather than our anniversary.

Either way it will be just as special to her, and then I could pay a full price on mastering and not haggle a deal out of anyone. I hate haggling deals out of people.

I do quite a bit of mastering. If your interested, give me the details on the source material and what your budget is and maybe I can help you out.

Cheers,

Chris

Art, it might not be what you're looking for long term, but Chicago has a pretty busy Audio/Visual market for all the hotels and meetings there. (Been in that city a few times, plenty of great hotels with big ballrooms & convention areas.)

They may not advertise in your local yellow pages, but there's plenty of private AV companies that services these accounts and more. The hotels each have their AV departments as well; although they pay slave wages and make you work ridiculous hours. (Usually 6 a.m. crew calls for 8 a.m. meetings....)

I know you're looking for studio work per se, but you may be able to parlay your skills in a sideways move at least for now... AV companies still need good sound techs, lighting techs, whatever. It could be something to keep body and soul together - for now, till something better comes along.

With the holidays coming up, it might be a good time to get on board with some of these places, even as a day-hire, or outside contractor for hire. Day rates start at $200-250 per day, vs. lower hourly rates for full timers.

Good luck, man; keep us posted.....

Thanks Joe....I'm going to look into that.

I'm not intentionally piggybacking on your topic, therecordingart, but I have a question for Chris: you said that you live in Cleveland, yes? Have you heard anything about a place called Scorpio Audio based out of there? I have an opportunity for an internship that I'm still undecided on, so any feedback you'd want to give me will be appreciated.

I only know about them 2nd -hand.
I haven't heard any of thier work and I don't know the owners so I can't really say anything about them, good or bad.

I guess I would say in general- proceed with caution. The Cleveland recording studio scene has seen much better days. I've owned 4 different studios here over the last 22 years and things don't look very bright.

But, Cleveland is a cheap place to live and there are some nice neighborhoods to live in near downtown. It is a quickly shrinking city with many people leaving for the burbs.

If you need any referals, give me a call, I know most of the studio owners in town and I can give you an inside scoop.

Hope this helps,

Chris
888-LIL-DOGG

Wow. I may just do that. Thanks very much.

--Kevyn--

therecordingart, I would suggest that you take a look at mabe a job at one of the three Guitar Center's around there. Were not talking big money and it is a brutal job, but the resources for contacts and the potential for side business that can be done all under the table and without the IRS can lead you to something wonderfull given enough time and effort. Just a thought...

Audiogaff....I was actually considering it because I live less than 2 miles from the one in Arlington Heights. I'm a regular there and they even know my voice over the phone...I know that's pretty sick! I've been stalking Guitar Center since I was 13. I have a few friends that work there so it is one of my options.

therecordingart -

I'm sorry to hear about all the negative things going on in your life right now. However, you sound like you're hangin in there and keepin your chin up and I think that's great! I wish you the best of luck with everything.

I was glad to see the responses that you received. These guys are great!

The music industry is not my field of expertise, so I can't help you there; I do deal with a lot of clients in Chicago,t hough, and I'd be glad to help you out in any way I could.

Tell me more about your schooling -- where you are wanting to go, what you are majoring in -- and what it is that is keeping you from getting funding. This is an area that I may be able to help you with.

:)

I want to go to Columbia for Audio Engineering. My girlfriend goes to Columbia and I've been down there a few times and love it. The commute is easy (I'd just take the L). The instructors at Columbia in this field are awesome (so I'm told). I agree that everyone in this forum is awesome. I've never "met" such supportive people in my whole life. It really renews my faith in society.

therecordingart wrote: Audiogaff....I was actually considering it because I live less than 2 miles from the one in Arlington Heights. I'm a regular there and they even know my voice over the phone...I know that's pretty sick! I've been stalking Guitar Center since I was 13. I have a few friends that work there so it is one of my options.

I'm also in the Chicago area, but just over the Indiana state line. There's a few places on the South Side, but it's very cliquey and political when it comes to getting intern, engineering, or contract work through them. It's very much a case of who you know, not what you know. But if you can get the connections, you can get set up pretty nice.

I second the Guitar Center recommendation, as I used to work at the Cicero store. I don't really know anyone up at Arlington Heights, unless Aaron is still up there.. but I haven't talked to that dude in over two years. The first month is pretty rough, because they have a really high turnover rate, and they really don't bother training you or helping you out, since they figure you're going to quit within three or four months anyway. The pay sucks in the beginning as well, because you're not able to do as much in commission as the vets. But if you stick with it, generally within two to three months, it can start to pay off. And you can't beat the networking you're able and encouraged to do.

It's just a little bit late to get a job there right now, but they still might be hiring anyway. The holiday season brings many things to GC.. lots of new hires, lots of money, and then a LOT of turnover. It's a madhouse, especially in the older stores, and they generally like to hire people by October so they're prepared and capable for the holiday rush. Of course, if you already know your stuff and you're able to pick things up quickly, you can probably pull it off.. but don't waste too much time with your decision, unless you're planning on starting after the New Year.

-TF

Tigerfolly wrote: It's very much a case of who you know, not what you know.

You have no idea how much that statement bothers me... it's a pussy excuse for a job not done. It's all about who knows what you know and how well you present what you know to the people that need to know. If you don't meet the people that need to know just how the fuck do you suppose they're going to know that you exist or are competent?

Yes, there are a whole lot of incompetent motherfuckers rolling around that are "connected"... but it's because they present themselves in a manner that shows confidence. With that kind of presentation you can kinda snow anyone that you know what you're doing... and if you happen to actually know what you're doing you'll generally rise through the ranks even faster... know why? Because by knowing what the hell you're doing you make your employers look good, and the better you make your employers look the better they'll take care of you [if they're smart... if they don't take care of you their competitors will].

The better the work you do, and the more work you do, the more the word on you gets out on the street without you pushing it. This takes years of patience and persistance and a never ending quest to be better... but if you work your balls off, are diligent about learning, paying strict attention to detail, and doing the best work you possibly can... guess what? You get a career.

To "therecordingart" I don't know what your last gig was or how much you were making but I will guarantee you that you won't make enough as a "general assistant" / go-fer / "piss boy intern" to support a mother with health issues... and unless girlfriend is incredibly supportive, you can kiss that relationship goodbye as well.

Damn near every "full time" engineer I know has gone through at least one divorce. Your girlfriend/family is going to have to get very used not seeing you. You need to be prepared mentally and physically to work 15-18 hour days for months at a time with few to no days off [which ain't as easy as you think]. The people around you will have to get used to you missing things. I know one brother that missed his surprise birthday party because a session ran late... those kinds of things happen all the time.

While this somehow looks like a great "glamour gig" on the outside lemme tell ya that with the exception of maybe 1% of the engineers out there, it's a demanding gig with little or no thanks and pretty shitty money [for the 1%'ers it's an even more demanding gig but they make some pretty steep money and get heaps of praise].

I'm not trying to piss on your dreams... but sometimes a little reality goes a long way. If being an engineer is really something you feel you "have" to do... go for it. Call around to every studio and get a gig. If you show persistance [without becoming annoying... it's a fine line, learn to walk it] you'll get where you want to be. If working in a studio is what you really feel you want to do with your life, go for it... but remember, you pretty much get one shot, so don't fuck it up, and walk in knowing that the chances of actually sitting in "the chair" in under 3 years is somewhere between slim and none. If you don't mind being poor, uninsured, risk losing the little lady and not seeing your friends for the next lord knows how long... go for it.

If you think that you're going to be distracted by your Mom's health thing, then maybe you might want to wait before giving it a go. If you have any ideas about doing the nice suburban family life thing get a computer gig or something else that will have you home at night. At the moment engineering may seem to be something that would be a cool idea for a career, but very often it's better kept as a hobby that wraps around a more lucrative career

Sincerely, I wish you the best of luck with all you do.

Oh... and stay the fuck out of Banjo Mart... that shit'll just rot your mind.

Really enjoyed that one, Fletcher. (almost did a spit-take with my morning coffee over some of it! ;-)

I'm long-ago divorced, (18 happy yrs now!) and a veteran of many blown-out relationships from gf's who mistook my attention to details and getting the job done right as competition to them.

You're right about the timeline (3 yrs at best). It's been a cold sobering fact for decades, and it's only worse now. (Wanna sit in the big chair? Open your OWN facility, if you've got the $$$.)

I don't want to throw cold water on the guy's hopes, but it's dog eat dog out there even once you "make it," (whatever THAT is) and getting a toehold somewhere is only the start. Networking, good contacts, and perhaps even an 'indie" approach is better for those who have the belly for that kind of lifestyle. (One project following another, that is, without a net....)

Once in a while, ya catch the brass ring in this biz, and it's wonderful when it happens. But those who have won't be sharing much and aren't talking (cause they're holding on tight to it) and the rest have a pretty tough time. There's only so many "Big chairs" out there anyway.

Ya gotta love this biz, and love the projects you're working on, one at a time. Hopefully, you can at least make a living. Hopefully with a mate/spouse who's also making a living, so you don't nec. have to crawl & grovel most days.

Very few full timers can cut it, the rest, unfortunately, should have a good day job/parachute to cover 'em when things get lean.

job

I worked in the music and recording business for 15 years some years ago and later went into a business that is my other passion. So, for the past couple decades I've owned what has become a large photography studio business. I have a group of wonderful employees.

With that being said, the one thing (from an employeer's viewpoint) that stands out as being most important is attitude...the employee's attitude.

That's attitude torward customers/clients, attitude towards helping the business grow, attitude about work ethics and attitude about being willing to learn.

One good technique anyone can use when looking for a job is to carry a stack of thank-you notes and postage stamps in their car while job hunting and doing interviews. As soon as you leave the interview, write a thank-you note to the one who interviewed you and pop it into the nearest mailbox.

This thank-you note doesn't guarantee you'll have the correct attitude to keep the job, but it will give you an advantage over others looking for the same job because they just won't send a note!

I remember years ago when my wife had just finished college and was job hunting. She was searching for a position in a field that was over saturated with quailfied people. Jobs in her field were scarce to say the least. She sent a thank-you note to every person who interviewed her and...

...every job she interviewed for called her back...every one! Because she had sent a thank-you. She actually had her pick of jobs because of the notes.

Again, this technique works no matter what type of job in any field a person is trying to acquire.

Don

If you do go to work for GC, become informed (by doing your research, this forum is a great place to start) and please do give quality advice to your patrons- you can make a difference and either help someone with their recording endeavors or steer them towards some piece of crap gear they don't need. karma, man, what goes around, comes around!

I guess this is hijacking the thread, but I have to add some kudo's to Guitar Center (in Cherry Hill NJ) all because of a conversation I overheard one time there, about 2-3 years ago.

The customer was a 14 yr old kid and his dad, shopping for new gear with a limited budget (but with Dad's desire to buy 'the best" for the kid). I was waiting to hear all kinds of BS and over the top nonsense about how much they'll have to spend to make the kid sound great, and figured the guy would push whatever the flavor of the month was, be it a mic, processor or hi res preamp.

I was happy and more than a little surprised to hear the guy ask the kid how long he was playing and what skill level he was at. After hearing how new the kid was, the salesman suggested an SM57 for the guitar, and a basic Marshal $100 starter mic for vocals and other instruments. He said: Look, this wont blow your budget, you can make some good sounds with it, and find out if it's really for you long term. If it is, come back when you want to expand your rig and we'll show you some higher end stuff.

I was next in line and told the salesguy in no uncertain terms that his honesty and no-BS approach helped him with MY sales, otherwise I had planned to walk. Not everyone is this honest and helpful, but I thought it was a stand up thing for the guy to do. He could have conned the Dad into a $1000 preamp and mic rig, with all kinds of stuff the kid wasn't ready for. Instead he did the right thing.

Dad (and his wallet) was happy, son was drooling over the new mics, and everyone won. I know the stores like Sam Ash and GC are killing the little guys, but once in a while ya do have to make a deal with the devil.

yep, that was my point- if you work there you can make a difference and be decent about it or you can be a pirate... isn't that the way life is though?

Fletcher wrote: [quote=Tigerfolly]It's very much a case of who you know, not what you know.

You have no idea how much that statement bothers me... it's a pussy excuse for a job not done. It's all about who knows what you know and how well you present what you know to the people that need to know. If you don't meet the people that need to know just how the fuck do you suppose they're going to know that you exist or are competent?

First of all, I'm going to respond to this before I even read the rest, just for clarifications's sake. I respect you Fletcher, and I'm not trying to be disrespectful or hostile with this post, but you definitely took things the wrong way.

It is not a pussy excuse for a job not done, but it could easily be used as an excuse for why one doesn't find work.. "I've talked to all of these studios, but they're all stuck up, cliquey, political snobs. It's about who you know, not what you know." Yes, that's a BS excuse, and generally used by an asshole who thinks a hell of a lot more of themselves than anyone else. But that's not what I'm saying.

You said "It's all about who knows what you know and how well you present what you know to the people that need to know", and that's exactly what I'm talking about. It doesn't matter how good you are at what you do if you don't present it properly. But, if you present yourself properly, you don't always have to be -really- good to get the gig. It really depends on the employer, and the situation, of course. I'm not a great engineer by any means, and I'm certainly not diverse.. but I work fast and I work well with people. I've gotten to work on a handful of projects that were above my skill level because of that.

On the south side of Chicago, it's just how things are done, and it's not meant negatively. People just operate on a people-to-people basis, and if you make a good impression on someone, they're actually more likely to offer you work than someone with a huge resume of previous work. And if you're not as good as you could or should be, they really take you under their wing and help you out.

I can't speak for how things work in studios around the world, country, or even the state. But I can tell you that on the south side of Chicago, the impression you make on people is more important than anything else. It's -very- word of mouth around here, and you'll get hired with "he's a really good guy, knowledgeable, but he's a little raw" WAY before you'll get hired with "he's awesome and he knows it". Since the only big studios are up in the city, and around here people hate people in the city, they're really picky with who they work with.

Guitar Center opened up a lot of those doors to me, because I wouldn't have been in a position to meet those people otherwise. I wouldn't have gotten to work on those projects if I didn't know those people. And I wouldn't have known those people if I didn't make a good impression on them. I got a few nice recommendations from some customers that turned out into some really great opportunities.. all because someone who knew someone who knew someone said, "Yeah, that guy's pretty cool, and he knows his shit. You should talk to him." THAT's what I mean when I say it's who you know, not what you know.

I didn't intend to imply that it doesn't matter what you know, and that who you know is more important. But around here, if you don't get out and meet people, you don't work. You don't just call up studios or email your resume or some shit.. things just don't work like that round here. But then, this is small potatoes we're talking about. ;)

JoeH wrote: I guess this is hijacking the thread, but I have to add some kudo's to Guitar Center (in Cherry Hill NJ) all because of a conversation I overheard one time there, about 2-3 years ago.

I know the stores like Sam Ash and GC are killing the little guys, but once in a while ya do have to make a deal with the devil.

I worked for both Guitar Center and Sam Ash. GC is WAY more lenient on things than Ash is. Ash is very strict and structured underneath, while GC is more like.. barely controlled chaos. With Guitar Center, it really depends on the local management of the store, because that's who trains their sales staff. Our store was mainly staffed with salesmen like the one you mentioned, because it was a no-BS manager, with a no-BS sales manager (who does most of the training). Our store had no rules about price haggling.. our manager would say, "Just don't give the shit away." You were allowed to work with customers on prices and things, so you can put together the right package for someone, because the mentality was customer based. If you treated your customers well, they'd come back to YOU. Not just to your store, but to you.. and that was good for you, your commission, and GC's big golden coffers.

On the other hand Sam Ash was very, very corporate. Everything is dictated by the central office and regional managers. Store managers are very limited in what they're able to do with the "vibe" of the store. Training is done by obsolete video tapes, and the mentality was more about making a great store that people would want to come to and buy from anyone. Only the upper managers were allowed to change prices or work deals. It was very micro-managed from a distance. Plus, they made you push for items.. I wish I could remember what they called them, but basically they wanted you to sell at least one Sam Ash sponsored item with every sale. Samson, Zoom, Guitar Research, Carlo Robelli, Brownsville, Peavey, and something else.. basically, they told you to push crap on people instead of trying to help them get what they needed. Most people ignore that, and you can get away with ignoring it because most people buy guitars with a gig bag, or gear with cables or stands and stuff, and that takes care of your quota.. but still, that's just annoying to me, and something they never, ever made us do at Guitar Center. GC would put out a list every month with the most profitable items and packages, so if your commission was profit based (depending on the store, and department) they'd tell you what would make the most money, or what prices you could fiddle with the most.

I had a very, very bad experience working for Sam Ash, but I loved working for Guitar Center. They were literally a block away from each other.. so the area was the same, but they were two completely different worlds. When I started at GC, the store manager really took me under his wing and I was able to do really well, really fast. When he started, his manager did the same thing.. and his manager ended up working for Ash, and was running that store down the block. My manager left to go work with him, and once he got in there offered me a position I could not refuse (but should have). I was brought in to manage the recording department, which was less work and a step up from managing keyboards at GC. But Ash was an absolute clusterfuck. Their computer system is a fucked-over, rebuilt inventory system from some furniture company Ash bought out in the mid-80s. GC's computer network is bad, but Ash's is the absolute worst.

You actually have to fax all of your paperwork in, and hope that the morons in the Ash home office get to it within two weeks, which they generally don't. It took me six weeks to get paid, during the Christmas season. I was borrowing money for gas just to get to work. And, since I didn't have an employee number until my first check, none of my commissions were tallied. I had a $5,200 sales day the first week of December that would've given me an extra $100-200 (depending on the profit margins) in my pocket for that day alone that I got screwed out of. Six weeks after I started, when I finally got my check, I got minimum wage salary for the first two weeks only.. despite the fact that I was hired in as a manager. I only worked there for another couple weeks, and a month after I quit, I still had to go in to pick up the checks they owed me. Just a horrible, horrible company to work for and deal with.

Plus, the guitar manager was stealing Gibsons and PRSs and selling them on Ebay, and the regional manager was a coke dealer.. but that's kinda normal in Chicago.

No matter where you shop, find that cool salesmen in the store and just deal with him. Who needs mom and pop stores when you can deal with a knowledgeable sales(wo)man who doesn't rake you over the coals with the price?

Oh, one other thing.. they don't just kill the little guys. Ask Mars Music about that one. At both Ash and GC, they celebrated when Mars sold out. It's very competitive. But hey, your mileage may vary.

-TF

TF; from my own limited experience with both of those stores, your explanation makes a lot of sense (and explains a lot of things.)

The GC in Cherry Hill NJ is in the SAME SHOPPING CENTER as the Sam Ash, literally about 900-1000 feet apart, you don't have to move you car to shop at either one. Talk about nuts!

I like to ask around, find good deals online, and only visit those places when absolutely necessary. (I'm still amazed at the foot traffic in both places, however....SoMEONE is buying their stuff!)

There are four Sam Ash stores within 25 miles of here, (Philadelphia area) and I'm amazed how they operate at any kind of profitability. They must squeeze the life out of their helpers.

As for the style of hiring and personal contact you described, I don't think it's limited to just your area. I think it's basically how this business runs, regardless of the level or locale.

Twice a year, I get a flurry of cookie-cutter resume's written by people who've obviously just come out of a school that gives their graduates a list of studios anyone could pull from the web and says: "Here, write your lame resumes to these places and see who bites." They call THAT job placement upon graduation. (!!!!) Obviously, few if any ever bite on these things. (Why should we?) Unsolicited resume's from strangers who "would like to drop by your studio for a tour and an interview" just make me shake my head sadly... How clueless can someone be?

Let's think for a moment about how 99% of the average studios operate: shoe string budget, caffiene-fueled sessions, cranky, (maybe even paranoid) understaff, and cutthroat efforts to get the next lucrative project in the door and (most importantly) PAID for. The average studio manager or owner isn't sitting around saying: "Gee, I wish some green, never-tried-before recording-Arts-school grad would just CALL us, I can't wait to take a half hour of my insanely busy day to show him/her the place...." Most of those emailed resumes and phone calls end up in the ol' "circular file."

Even worse is the level of ignorance revealed in these things. Poorly written, borderline insulting, and always barely revised from the original version they've cribbed (which I've also seen a 100 times before.) Most act (perhaps unintentionally) like they're god's gift to engineering, and they REALLY DO FEEL they will have something to offer the studio by (duh!) taking up the manager's time with an in-person interview and studio tour. As IF.

I know that sounds terribly harsh, but the real secret to getting work is NOT cold-calling or blindsiding places with paperwork that aren't even hiring. You'd have better luck panning for gold in the Delaware or Hudson River most days.

The word "networking" is almost a cliche and certainly overused, but it's really true, and worth repeating. It DOES count who you know (to at least establish your reputation - good or bad) and interpersonal skills are VERY, VERY important. I hire only through word of mouth and referrals, often someone with track record or good work habits. Once in a while, lightning may strike and the odd emailed resume matches up with a day we're short handed, but it's the exception, NEVER the rule.

For my niche, neatness counts, so does punctuality and the ability to communicate, either written or verbally. I'm not asking for a Rhodes scholar, but I don't want someone scaring off my clients either, because bathing or laundry was too much of an effort for 'em that day. Time is money, and both are in short supply in this kind of business; few owners or managers can take a risk on someone totally cold or unproven, you've got to have an "in" of some sort - a referral, a client that wants you, or a project that shows off your unqiue talents. Surprise; engineering is only one part of it.

I know this all sounds conflicting; what comes first? Can't get a job without experience, and ya can't be experienced without the job. But there are ways in, sometimes a bit at a time, sometimes just good luck, determination and preparation. (They say good fortune is when luck meets preparation....) Know your market, know your clients, and be flexible, ready to dive in when needed, or wait your turn when not.

Many folks start out almost working for free (not to be confused with being a doormat) and work on projects that will lead to something ELSE, eventually, someday. Maybe it's a tracking session, or mastering job on spec, or maybe it's working with a band or an act on their way up.

If you're good at what you do, have a good attitude (and people skills), eventually the connections keep happening, and good things happen on top of good foundations.

yeah, it sounds all so cliche'd, but after 25-30 years at this, I don't know any other way to go....it's how i got here, and aside from a website and few ads, our clientele is entirely based on word of mouth & reputation. For my little corner of the world, it's ALL ABOUT knowing people, whether it's the clients or the hires.

VERY cliqu-y, sure, but it's how it gets done. Probably the same all over, in big cities or small towns.

therecordingart -

I'm glad to see all the responses you have received. These guys are great! I love this site!!!

I now understand where you want to go to school, and what you want to go to school for, but I still don't understand what is keeping you from getting grants/assistance.

I filled out my FASFA and they won't provide me with a grant because my mother can't come up with a W-2....I've told them a million times that she doesn't work, I support her, she is my dependent on my taxes! They still say they need a W-2 from her since we live in the same household. Even though my EFC is 0 and it needs to be under 3400 to get a grant. Bullshit politics I tell ya!