The best plug comp I have is the Ren Comp, but it sounds to loose. I want something that's going to really make the drums pop. Is there a good plug (rtas) for this, or is hardware the only way to do it well...if so, which box?
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According to gurus like George Massenburg there are A LOT of dig
According to gurus like George Massenburg there are A LOT of digital - tech things that make the design of a good digital compressor plug in very DIFFICULT..
I find most of them poor.. i am desperate for some great ones to be released.
Here is a guy that has a plan. He has produced Mandy Moore and other contemporary radio pop smashes, go see what he has to offer and what folks say about it..
http://duc.digidesign.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=005770
I haven't tried it out yet...
I have high hopes for the Sony Oxford Compressor.. I had an RTAS beta demo of it - it was cool! (but I sort of lost it, or it 'timed out' on me! SONY SEND ME ANOTHER ONE PLEASE!!!!)
:)
Originally posted by bassmac: The best plug comp I have is the
Originally posted by bassmac:
The best plug comp I have is the Ren Comp, but it sounds to loose. I want something that's going to really make the drums pop. Is there a good plug (rtas) for this, or is hardware the only way to do it well...if so, which box?
Put your kick snare toms and overheads to a submix and put on a Renn Comp. Put it on electro, auto release, and warm. drop the ratio to like 4:1. Start out by putting the attack towards the right and the release towards the left. Push the threshold so that kick and snare smack about 6 db of gain reduction, then put the limiter up to like 8 or 9 db. Now adjust the attack and release so that the attaack is still kinda slow but agressive enough to throw the snare in your face, and keep the release kinda quick. Sounds punch as hell and keeps the top end and cymbals nice and open and doesnt clank them like many hardware comps can do. I really don't think any hardware compressor under a grand will have an open enough to end in a mucho squash mode to do a drum sub squash. I use an SSL comp for it and it works great, but in software land, I use the Renn Comp. Its easy and sounds great if you know how to use it. try this and tell me what you think... btw, what DAW do you have?
I've started using the Finalizer on the Drum Submix on a few rec
I've started using the Finalizer on the Drum Submix on a few recent mixes. It's about the only thing that I found I can use it for...
Wow, I totally forgot! I have gotten some of the best drum sounds of my life (in digital-land anyways) using the Finalizer as a bus comp for drums!
The trick is to use the "DRG" process to add a bit of spit and squash, and then smash the hell out of the normalizer stage. I found that both the DRG and normalizer in particular interacted pretty well with the other comp's that I had on the individual drum trax. On kick and snare, I was compressing the SNOT out of 'em on the individual tracks, to just let the initial spike of the attack come thru the compressor. Then I'd bus the kick, snare, OH's and room mics all together on a stereo mix bus, and put the Finalizer over that. I found the Finalizer's "DRG" feature to add a nice tape-like squash to the aforementioned "spikes" on the kick 'n' snare attacks... just kinda flattening the transients in a very analog-ish way, giving more body to the sound while preserving the "crack" of the attack. I was then able to crank the normalizer threshold down to frightening levels, and add in just enough of the OH and room mics so that they would get "sucked up" by the normalizer and really start to blend into a cohesive kit sound. I'm tellin' ya, for a digital mix it was absolutely HUGE! Plus you have the option of using the Finalizer's multiband compressor if you need to change the overall spectral balance of the kit, i.e. pull down a overplayed sizzle hat or add a subsonic bass thump to the kick.
Indeed, this is the only thing I would still use a Finalizer for. Try it sometime, ya might be surprised.
Originally posted by John A: Put your kick snare toms and ove
Originally posted by John A:
Put your kick snare toms and overheads to a submix and put on a Renn Comp. Put it on electro, auto release, and warm. drop the ratio to like 4:1. Start out by putting the attack towards the right and the release towards the left. Push the threshold so that kick and snare smack about 6 db of gain reduction, then put the limiter up to like 8 or 9 db. Now adjust the attack and release so that the attaack is still kinda slow but agressive enough to throw the snare in your face, and keep the release kinda quick.
Uh ... Wow. Maybe I'm misreading you, but for one thing, if you have your RenComp set for auto-release, you can move that release time slider wherever you want and it'll do its own thing anyway. :D
-dave
The finalizer has a through put delay either: 1ms 10ms 0ms (
The finalizer has a through put delay
either:
1ms
10ms
0ms (!) but I serously have doubts about that!
Selectable
Doesnt the Finalized stuff get out of time or phase when combined with the other drum elements?
BTW I was a HIGE fan or the DRG prosess, for a few years ALL my mixes had it on (5)..
Perhaps I should get mine out of moth balls and try this!
:)
Jules-- believe it or not, I was running my *entire* drum submi
Jules-- believe it or not, I was running my *entire* drum submix thru the Finalizer, and then using that as the sole drum sound in the main mix! Call me crazy but it WORKED. Anyhoo, you're right about the 10ms lookahead delay thingie, but since I wasn't recombining the Finalized drums with the original, it was a simple matter to just timeshift everything a few ms if needed. I suppose if you wanted to mix it back in with the original, it would be a simple matter to print the Finalized version to a new stereo track and simply move it at that point.
The "DRG" process can sound pretty great on drums! That's about the only thing I really like it on, though. The few times I tried using a Finalizer across my whole mix as a bus comp, "DRG" always seemed to interact with certain mix elements in a really harsh and nonmusical manner. On the drum mix though, it's pure magic.
Hmmm.. Need to try that sometime soon..... :) :w: P
Hmmm..
Need to try that sometime soon.....
:)
:w:
P.S I just thought of a 'twist' for you... Set the look ahead dealy to be 10ms then record a little of the result of the Finalized track, measure the delay (probably several samples more than just 10ms) then create duplicate playlists of all the drums and nudge them forward by the required amount... Then you have a cool look ahead compression!!!
Ahh gear gear & more gear!
Originally posted by dave-G: Uh ... Wow. Maybe I'm misreading
Originally posted by dave-G:
Uh ... Wow. Maybe I'm misreading you, but for one thing, if you have your RenComp set for auto-release, you can move that release time slider wherever you want and it'll do its own thing anyway.
If you're trying to stay with a plugin, the McDSP CompressorBank and MC2000 are really the most flexible and best sounding plug-in compressors, HO. I still use the RenComp a lot, but for making drums go THWACK! , they don't do quite as well as the McDSP stuff.
-dave
I should have edited that as auto release "off" as I went on to say that the release should be towards the left or faster side. I've used the McDsp Stuff and found it to sound no better in that application then the easy as hell to set renn comp. I've gotten extremely punchy drums with that thing. I personally use an Alan Smart but when mixing in PT I go with the Renn comp over the compbank. I do however like the McDsp Eq over the Renn Eq. I think the channelstrip eq is weird and kinda closed sounding, although I haven't messed with it as much as the Renn and McDsp stuff.
Originally posted by Danny K.: dumb question, but do you guys h
Originally posted by Danny K.:
dumb question, but do you guys have any tips on hip-hop drums?Not dumb at all. IME, for the sound of hip-hop drums it is more important to have some kind of distortion. This can be achieved by a pedal, amp simulator (pod etc.), plug in (lo-fi, amp farm, sans amp, etc), shitty sampler (sp1200, s900, etc), or even maxing out sections of a mixer channel. Such overload usually has the effect of compressing the signal a great deal, and may reduce the amount of compression needed (if any at all). Or maybe the compressor itself is what gives you the right tone. It's all about the vibe you want to create.
Also are you guys compressing kick, snares, etc. individually before you compress them as a group? Or do you send them in dry and compress once as a group?That's definite "maybe". In the immortal words of Smooth B, "Sometimes I rhyme slow, sometimes I rhyme quick."
Danny K. Dr Dre's drums have lots of distortion, but you cant he
Danny K. Dr Dre's drums have lots of distortion, but you cant hear it. prob if you A/B the sound of the dry sample, to the distorted/prossesed signal, you'll see where the distortion is. Adding distortion, doesnt mean the sound its going to be distorted! It may make it more upfront and clear! it all depends.
Joz
By the way, about rock drum compressing... I found that multing
By the way, about rock drum compressing... I found that multing one of the snare tracks (the bottom snare track cause it has less leakage from the hihat) and adding distortion (lo-fi plug) gave it a nice snap, and reduced the need to over compress the whole drum stereo bus. But only works when used with taste. Cause you get the clearnes of the original compressed snare, with the extra snap of the distorted snare. It does wonders on some kick drums tracks.
Thanks crazy_guitar, I learned something new from you there abou
Thanks crazy_guitar, I learned something new from you there about Dre's drums. And now that I think about it, I see what you mean! Just got back from a Pro Tools HD demo. Pretty cool stuff! They really want to sell 192's. They say it's top of the line now...I mean they say it's the best you can get out there! People would ask questions about the 96 I/O and before you know it they've switched the subject back to the 192. Sorry to get off topic.
Danny K, the answer is usually yes, compressing before the sub,
Danny K, the answer is usually yes, compressing before the sub, but usually done on a "mult". Dre's,Jay-Z,DMX and others drums are usually mixed on SSL of 2inch(Studers). Not much Hip hop is mixed off Pro Tools(even though most of the vocal comping is done on it). Usually the tracks are dumped back on analog. Yes there is distortion, but its analog, not the distortion you are thinking about.
OK on a big desk or a powerfull DAW heres the drill. 1) Keep al
OK on a big desk or a powerfull DAW heres the drill.
1) Keep all drums un compressed
2) Make 'mults' or DAW copies of drums you wish to compress indavidualy - do that
3) Feed WHATEVER YOU LIKE into the stereo 'comp drum bus'
4) perhaps have a FUTHER mono kick & bass bus...
uncompressed drums feeding the mix bus
indavidualy compressed drums feeding the mix bus
Compressed drum group feeding the mix bus
Mono kick & bass compressed group feeding the mix bus
Blend to taste
Using 'pre fade' adjustable sends (pick em up on the patch bay and plug em into ch line ins...) allows freedom to build up the compressed tracks to your satisfaction, independant of the level mix of the uncompresssed tracks..
Easy on a big desk, slight PITA on a smaller one & possible on a DAW (but it makes your head hurt!)
:)
Guys the main secret in drum "multing" is to get varying degrees
Guys the main secret in drum "multing" is to get varying degrees of attack times and realeases happening. I usually do (3-4) on the kick and (3) on my snare. The(3) on kick are a bottomn(or sub range) normally EQ(something that brings out a solid bottomn), the "knock" range as I call it(usually a combo of compression/EQ) and the attack(sometimes gate/comp/EQ). On the snare its kinda similar: "body"(normaly EQ no compression), "pow"(heavy Comp(tube usually), and EQ) and the bright attack(gate/comp/EQ). All of this gets fed to a drum sub(compressed and EQ'd) which is mixed with the originals(with their own varying degrees of compression and EQ's). I know this sounds like a lot, but sometimes the drum sounds are so small sounding that it needs it. I like to mix the drums agressively. Now sometimes i am lucky and drums are just right(this goes for sampled drums too by the way), and less stuff is needed. You have to make the call. These techniques work for vocals and bass also. It takes practice, but once you get your own sound happening, it starts to become automatic.
Danny K, you might want to checkout the last issue of Mix, ther
Danny K,
you might want to checkout the last issue of Mix, there was a good interview with a NYC hiphop/r&b producer who talked about this very technique.
He would mult the kick and snare 2-3 times and EQ each mult so it occupied part of the spectrum. He would then compress each one differently. So for instance hemight make two copies of the kick and lo pass one and hi pass the other. The lo passed one he's compress more gently to keep the subintact, but then he'd compress the hell out of the hipassed oneto get that snap, and then mix them to taste. Kind of like mutli band compression
but with a bit more control.
How do you guys handle the panning of all these mults? Do you ever slightly pan then off center a bit to widening things up? (mostly talking about snare and upper range instruments)
Jesse
I normally don't mess with the pans of the kick and snare mults(
I normally don't mess with the pans of the kick and snare mults(that's why checking for phase problems, even for samples is important). Also I need to leave space for the other instruments and I don't want to steal impact from the kick and snare. But I have been known for doing more spacing with the "highs"(hihats,tambs, perc and such)and their mults. One trick that I do, with a "high" mult is to drop them in a Spatializer. This particular spatializer brings out the highs automatically, so I end up using less or no Eq and I have extra spacing for those particular instruments. This spatializer works great on stereo keyboards too.
A chum of mine does that, a Sheen / super top exciter across a b
A chum of mine does that, a Sheen / super top exciter across a bus, send to it via an aux to add a little HF with out attempting to use the channel eq which might be less 'slick' or downright no good for that job..
Clever stuff...
he does it on a DAW (Logic / Motu) and the Phase / delay issues dont even cross his mind...
BTW - It's not multing Jesse, it is a send & return system, use a send to the Exciter, have the exciter on 100% wet (no origional) Using a stereo send will alow the same pan position of the excited signal as the origional to be replicated thus retaining the immaging, (if you want that)
:)
Julian, I was responding to this quote from THETHRILLFACTOR:
Julian,
I was responding to this quote from THETHRILLFACTOR:
"But I have been known for doing more spacing with the "highs"(hihats,tambs, perc and such)and their mults. One trick that I do, with a "high" mult is to drop them in a Spatializer"
Sounds like he is making mults similar to what we described for snare/kick. Or am I mistaken?
Jesse
Hey Jesse, the multing with the highs I do it sometimes not all
Hey Jesse, the multing with the highs I do it sometimes not all the time. Last year I mixed a lot of pop/rnb tracks which were heavy on the highs, we are talking like (8) different hihat tracks, (4) shaker tracks, lots of finger snaps, with tons of different percussion, I think you get the drift. Sometimes I would do pairs and combinations, in mults to better control them. Also it gave me the option to "open" and "close' certain parts of the songs, to make it feel like it was changing or something new(we all know that a lot of the pop/rnb stuff production wise can be pretty repetitive). Which spatializers? Well if I told you I have to kill you..let me stop. The two that I use is..the Desper Spatializer(retro) version-I use this for my stereo placement of certain sounds, it has a "bassy" sound so I end up Eqing it to make it clearer. I don't tend to use an aux send for this one. My other one is my little secret weapon..the Behringer Spatializer. This is probably the best thing they ever made. It is clear and bright and i use it on all kinds of things(percussion,hihats, male chorus bckgrounds, keyboards) etc. Julian is right though, it works as a great exciter because of the freq. it accentuates. Sometimes I've used on a kick and snare mult, and it makes them just pop out of the speakers. I sometimes send and aux or I go straight from a pair of Pro Tool returns.
THETHRILLFACTOR: Thanks for the explaination. You guys have iv
THETHRILLFACTOR:
Thanks for the explaination. You guys have iven me a lot to think about here. I am mixing in Paris with only 32 tracks, but it looks liek I might need to install my 3rd EDS card to get somemore tracks to handle all these new ideas.
Do you keep the mutls live during the final mix or do you find you need to bounce a lot to conserve tracks?
Jesse
Its kind a weird, when I mix on an analog console I tend to keep
Its kind a weird, when I mix on an analog console I tend to keep the mults on the board. When I mix on a digital console, I have to track it because of the latency involved. It also depends on the number of tracks involved. Remember we are talking 64-96tracks of vocals and music. I don't mix on the DAW alone so I can't really respond for that. Your only working with 32 tracks huh? Wow I miss them days. If now a days I get a song to mix that is less than 48 tracks I am shocked. I start thinking..ok where are the other tracks?. Is there a CD missing? Did I do something wrong?
I'm really loving my Alan Smart C2 (SSL soundalike 2ch comp) for
I'm really loving my Alan Smart C2 (SSL soundalike 2ch comp) for this... altho there are some options in plug-in land for this too, I think. Do you have ChannelStrip? There's a preset on there called "industrial" or something like that... worx great on drums for that "pop".