Originally posted by Treena Foster:
I'm open minded, talk to me and tell me what you want to know. I have no secrets.

I can't. Davedog told me (by private mail) that I'd be banned from RO if I said anything else.

Originally posted by jroberts:

Originally posted by Treena Foster:
I'm open minded, talk to me and tell me what you want to know. I have no secrets.

I can't. Davedog told me (by private mail) that I'd be banned from RO if I said anything else. That's news to me. I wasn't aware Davedog had that authority.

Treena

Anyway...

My take continues to be that you can do it with less. You don't need special preamps matched to special mics, etc.

You can have better components...but the positioning and balance, AFTER the Song/Arrangement/Musician/Performance [not going to even mention the room if there's mics] makes the BIGGEST difference.

Give me a makie1202 and '57's and it'll still sound good.

I have'nt followed this thread closely but I second Recorderman.
I can't(actually I can ) believe the difference
the room acoustics makes not to mention the source.
T

If Alan had of had the c-3 mic assembled in Germany to the same exact specks that it is now, and put a $4000 price on it...high end studio owners would be bragging about owning one.

With a retail price of 300 bucks they arn't interested in even trying one.

Its the same with every commodity be it mics, cars, wine, ect...
customers shopping for high end products INSIST on paying 10 times the price "ordinary" buyers pay.
If they admit they like something that is really affordable....that would mean that they paid too much for the product they have now. Worse than that, it would mean that a "financially challanged" buyer could actually afford something that they own and addmitted was a good product.

thats the cold day in Hell that will not likely come anytime soon.
Things are turning around though. Pros like Kurt are TRYING very affordable products and being honest about the results. If it sucks they say so. If, as in the case of studio projects, the product is a great value and performs well, they are saying that as well.

originally posted by jimistone; "If Alan had of had the c-3 mic assembled in Germany to the same exact specs that it is now, and put a $4000 price on it...high end studio owners would be bragging about owning one ..... customers shopping for high end products INSIST on paying 10 times the price "ordinary" buyers pay ....... Worse than that, it would mean that a "financially challanged" buyer could actually afford something that they own and addmitted was a good product."

Mike,
I agree and disagree. The C3 is a very nice mic. Alan sent one out for review and I have been using it with a lot of tracks I have been recording for "The Cheeseburgers" project I am recording. I first tried it on bg vx and I recently used it on lead vocals.. both with great results. But ... I have also used it on my voice. I have a tooth missing in the front of my mouth (my dog knocked it out when we were playing) and on my voice the sibilance is too much. The C3 is a bit bright. I have been told this is common in the capsules from 797 because of the way they are tensioned. I like the U87 on my voice a lot more as it has a flatter response without a presence peak. I have yet to hear an inexpensive mic that comes close to the 87 in that respect. There are actually a lot of high end studios that are adding the SP mics to their lockers and are proud of it. Cost is not the deciding factor to these people but instead the quality (or in some cases, the lack of quality) of a piece is their criteria. If these people can find a way to use a dog turd, they will put it to work! This is evidenced by the use of stomp box's by many mix engineers like Butch Vig, when they are mixing. The axiom is "if it sounds good, do it!"

No it is not audio snobbery. It is, a lot of these products sound sh*tty. With high end gear there is a lot less wading through the muck, because a higher percentage of the stuff sounds great while with the more affordable gear, a lot of it is very dismal.. although, in the case of some ( proved by the line of SP mics) there are some jewels to be discovered.

Kurtster...

"I have yet to hear an inexpensive mic that comes close to that(87ai) for my voice...."

(MK 319....resides in Oregon....) :D ;)

The C-series mics don't sound good on everyones voice thats tru....but, thats why ya need several mics. Im just thankful that alan is making some good sounding mics that I can afford. Im glad he sent some stuff to you to review too Kurt. He is pround of what he offers at the pricepoint he can deliver....he knows his mics will get good reviews...cause they sound good.

As far as the U87 goes, it is basically the standard by which LDC mics are measured. I will be very interested in seeing how the stephen paul signature mic (thats supposed to be under $2000 retail) will stack up agiant the finest germany has to offer. I suspect the bar may be raised a few notches.

Alan and Stephen Paul arn't saying very much about it...except that it will have several "firsts" that they are keeping under their hat.

they also said that compromise is not an option...it will be manufactured to stephen pauls exact specs and tolerances.

Yes I am waiting patiently for the Stephen Paul "Mike" to hit the streets. I hope Alan will send me one once the back orders are taken care of, although it looks as if the demand is going to be very high. They may never get out of backorder-ville..

Hey Dave, I didn't forget the Oktiva MK 319. It's just we didn't try it on my voice. I admit is sounded very much like the U87 on the Morton geetar at first listen except for the output level .. however the more I listen to the samples we did, the more difference I hear.. Could be position, or playing technique, I don't know.. I would have to live with it for a while before I rushed to judgment. That's something I learned with the SP stuff. It took me a while to get over my biases. I gotta cop to that.

Originally posted by Leaske:
Well I can see by the reaction to this posting that it probably is not wise to ask for sonic advice from the professionals without expecting much philosophizing and meandering. It's very interesting reading the opinions of this group. I think I've grown as a recording musician by being exposed to so much diversity. In the end I'll probably buy one of the cheaper low-fi (RNP or Grace 101) products since my budget won't change and I don't expect to ever become a recording engineer or own a studio. I appreciate your valuable input.

Leaske,
Even though the Grace is an inexpensive purchase, it is a very nice pre if you are looking for something that is neutral sounding. The company has an excellent reputation for high quality products..

Leaske, sorry to not get back to you sooner.
You may want to simply ask Alan directly in his forum here regarding the "ETA" of the revised Joe Meek's, or e-mail them via http://www.pmiaudio.com

BTW, the Studio Projects VTB-1 is underated IMO by quite a few members of various BBS's, who think it's in the same ballpark as ART, M-Audio
(Audio Buddy/DMP3), etc.

Whether or not you think the "tube blend" feature is handy, it damned it in the eyes of some of the more outspoken pro's, as it seemed yet more of the dreaded "toob" virus to them. That then filtered down to the enthusiast recordists to an
extent. Just an observation, not an allegation.
Fact is, the pre is extremely quiet, and has a nice coloration. On my voice, it sounds simply outstanding on a Beyer M88TG or EV 666.
YMMV though as far as which mic it sounds "best"
on. B1 or SM57 is cool for "rock style" material for me also, with this pre.

I expect the new Meek pre's will be an excellent complement, and will stand up well to the Grace 101 sonically in terms of transparency. The original VC1 "brick" pre has a good reputation, and PMI are further upgrading the circuitry surrounding the new units.

Chris

Postscript...

With all due respect Leaske, I'd replace "cheap lo-fi" with "cheap HI-FI" regarding the RNP and Grace. They are both reputed to be excellent pre's
by many knowledgable and respected engineers.

Chris

Out of the SP mics, what mic would you concider the most flexible? I am intersted in some good cheap condensers (isn't everyone) and now that I bought some nice pre's, I think I could hope for a good sound if they are what you guys say they are. I have disregarded them in the past because major-guitar-satan store doesnt deal them, they are pretty cheap and I have no way to hear them. I have spent too much on low priced condensers that suck so I would love a pair that don't. Thanks

Originally posted by AudioGaff:
Oh, and I've heard hip hop IT SUCKS! If I want to hear loud, over-compressed life-less, hypnotic, repetative loops, I'll go listen to my Mother tell me all the things I shouldn't do...

Don't wanna hijack the thread here, but AG, I have two observations for you.

1. If I were only exposed to that hip hop that some suit declares acceptible to me as a member of the general public, I'd hate it too. As that is not the case, I am sure to have heard much more of the artform than you. And upon that basis I have formed my opinion. I love it. OTOH, I can't stand most modern Rock music, but I'm only minimally exposed. So I can understand your position.

2. A lot of people miss the point. Hip hop is intended to spoken word over a repetitive beat. Why is the beat repetitive? to give the vocalist the limelight. Many, many, many modern hip hop acts, however, buck that trend. But the key element is the word.
Granted, most popular rappers are about as poetic as Dubya is eloquent, but there are some who take their artform as seriously as the great poets, and take their stardom with as much responsibility as John Lennon. They just don't sell very well.

What percentage of raw milk becomes cream?

I submit that any anything only about the same percentage is great...the rest is just plain average or worse.

Originally posted by loosegravel:
Out of the SP mics, what mic would you concider the most flexible? I am intersted in some good cheap condensers (isn't everyone) and now that I bought some nice pre's, I think I could hope for a good sound if they are what you guys say they are. I have disregarded them in the past because major-guitar-satan store doesnt deal them, they are pretty cheap and I have no way to hear them. I have spent too much on low priced condensers that suck so I would love a pair that don't. Thanks

I have become attached to the C3 and the C4's. Both compare favorably to mics many times the cost.

I think of all the less expensive pres, the Grace 101 is a good bet. It is accurate and quiet with reasonable headroom. It doesn't exhibit the color or attitude I like but it's not awful sounding either (Yes I have heard one). If you want to hear what the mic sounds like and nothing more, its a good choice.

The VTB1 is very inexpensive and it's hard to get hurt at that price. I keep revisiting the VTB1 everytime someone posts positve comments about it but I have yet to "get it". It absolutly has a sonic signature, or "flavor". I have posted some audio examples of this pre in the comparisons. I leave it to all of you to draw this conclusion. There seems to be something many like about it.

I like pres that bring a pleasing sonic flavor to the table. Like in the case where some like eggplant, while others, like me, may not care for it ... some may love a pre I don't "get". The only way to really know is to listen for yourself. That is why I post audio examples whenever possible.

.... a cheap mic can be made better by a great sounding pre amp while a bad pre cannot be overcome with a great mic..

For what it's worth, even though I'm more into the aggressive end of the music spectrum, some of the most interesting recording sessions I've done have been with more "progressive" hip-hop acts - great stuff.

Don't throw the baby out with the bath water - there's some great hip-hop out there if you take the time to look! :D

alright by god...since this gets so off topic...then back on topic then off again...I'm going to buy a 101 asap...sweetwaters got it for $20 less than musicians friend...now for compression and EQ on a budget...I'm looking at dbx 160a, and an ashly pqx571...mics going to be an AT4050(already have)...or maybe an AKG C4000B...straight to track on a TSR8.
if anybody doesn't like it they can kiss my ass. :c:

this is how...I'm selling my old worn out 2 horse trailer for $200...selling my fender hotrod deluxe for $400...that takes care of the pre...for the rest I'll just pimp out my girlfriend for a few hours...think I won't worry bout getting that C4000...shes going to protest too much as it is. :c:

Originally posted by mitzelplik:
Granted, most popular rappers are about as poetic as Dubya is eloquent, but there are some who take their artform as seriously as the great poets, and take their stardom with as much responsibility as John Lennon. They just don't sell very well. [/QB]

hmmmmmm... interesting concept!

Originally posted by mitzelplik:
A lot of people miss the point. Hip hop is intended to spoken word over a repetitive beat. Why is the beat repetitive? to give the vocalist the limelight.

No, I get the point. I just see it differently. Spoken word is just that, spoken word, It is not music to me. Thousands of recordings have been made with real music, complicated music, and music with dozens of people playing classical instruments at the same time that all gave the vocalist the limelight. A repeating beat would not have made those recordings better and would have done more harm than it does good just like it does now.

Gaff,

Point well taken.

I don't like to defend hip hop all the time. Its too time consuming. And I know that art is art only in the beholder's eye or ear. But I just feel that this artform is very legitimate and that in a number of cases it is disparaged and I have no idea why (besides the proliferation of garbage, but that affects every genre). But as a hip hop artist, I take pride in my art, and I take many precautions to ensure that my art cannot be pidgeonholed with the likes of 50 cent, etc.

Its kind of reminiscent to the debate on so-called ebonics. I mean all language evolves. That is the nature of the beast. Tell me that Beowulf is written in english, tell me that arabs speak differently than the Qu'ran is written, and you prove that point. Now, what is or is not proper is determined by popular convention. All I know is that when so-called ebonics is spoken, I can understand the ideas being expressed. What more is language than that? What nobler cause does language aspire to than communication.

mitz

spcbrown,
I noticed that you were thinking about an AKG C4000B. This is not a bad mic, and is actually pretty good on acoustic instruments. But, if you are going to use it for vocals, it is pretty uninteresting, and I think you could do better for the same amount of money with some other mics that are out there. I ended up selling mine, and found that there are a lot of them for sale on ebay for very cheap. I paid about $100 more for my Studio Projects T3 and I have been smiling ever since.

Rob

I agree with RecorderMan regarding the idea that only 1-2% of music in any genre is good, and that there is good music in any genre (though it might not be suited to an individual's taste).
AudioGaff: here are some of my recommendations on hip-hop, as a person who doesn't listen to much hip-hop:

-the new OUTKAST double album "Speakerbox"
-Beastie Boys "Check Your Head"
-The Streets (English guy rapping with a cockney accent over classical music samplaes).
-Kool Keith, Dr Octagon
-G Love and Special Sauce "Yeah, It's That Easy"

Don't listen to the crap on the radio. Clear Channel wouldn't play good music unless they had a gun to their collective head. David

Well I have no problem with evolution of a language, as long as I can perceive it as a step forward.. I don’t see Ebonics in that light. I think it is a reversion to a more primitive dialect and a debasing of American culture based on missspelling and mispronounceations. Because in America, we are so sensitve to considerations of culture and race, we tend to forgive or even embrace it.

Rap as a product in large, appeals mostly to the most base instincts humans have, sex and violence.. I find it very unbecoming and corrupting and I think for the most part it only advances the racism in American society on both sides of the coin. It is divisive and for the most part anti woman. Rap, for the most part, encompasses and glorifies the worst elements of urban culture. Melvin Van Pebbles spins in his grave..

Now as for the “art form” of RAP/ Hip Hop, if you want to call it that, IMO it is not music any more than someone cutting pictures out of a magazine and pasting them together in a collage, is high art. Much the same, RAP/ HIP HOP is assembly art, unless someone is actually playing an instrument. You see instruments are played by musicians.. turntables and samplers are not instruments. They are playback devices. Rapping is not singing. There is no melody. It is talking, or actually, for the most part, it is angry shouting.

BLUES forever... now there is something that is uplifting and culturally valid.. Like Walter “Brownie” McGhee told me once, “Kurt, Blues it truth.”

AudioGaff: here are some of my recommendations on hip-hop

Ok Doc, I'll take that perscription and give it a try.

One thing that doesn't get mentioned very often is that the most imortant component in getting a good sound is the player/singer and his/her instrument. My Gibson Hummingbird sounds fantastic thru a sm57 and a mackie. My Takamine sounds like ass no matter what pre or mic I use. Of course, the Hbird sounds even better with a great mic/pre but even so. When i'm l feeling lazy and just doing quick demos I just use what I have right in front of me. Sm57,mackie,RNC. Strangely enough these takes are often keepers for the final production!
mardyk

Originally posted by David Doc Herbert:
-the new OUTKAST double album "Speakerbox"
-Beastie Boys "Check Your Head"
-The Streets (English guy rapping with a cockney accent over classical music samplaes).
-Kool Keith, Dr Octagon
-G Love and Special Sauce "Yeah, It's That Easy"

Or anything by:

Aesop Rock
Antipop Consortium
Blackalicious
Buck 65
Jurassic 5
Mos Def
The Roots
Sage Francis
Sess

(or just about anything else on the Def Jux or Anticon labels.)

Well I have no problem with evolution of a language, as long as I can perceive it as a step forward.. I don’t see Ebonics in that light. I think it is a reversion to a more primitive dialect and a debasing of American culture based on missspelling and mispronounceations. Because in America, we are so sensitve to considerations of culture and race, we tend to forgive or even embrace it.
Rap as a product in large, appeals mostly to the most base instincts humans have, sex and violence.. I find it very unbecoming and corrupting and I think for the most part it only advances the racism in American society on both sides of the coin. It is divisive and for the most part anti woman. Rap, for the most part, encompasses and glorifies the worst elements of urban culture. Melvin Van Pebbles spins in his grave..
Now as for the “art form” of RAP/ Hip Hop, if you want to call it that, IMO it is not music any more than someone cutting pictures out of a magazine and pasting them together in a collage, is high art. Much the same, RAP/ HIP HOP is assembly art, unless someone is actually playing an instrument. You see instruments are played by musicians.. turntables and samplers are not instruments. They are playback devices. Rapping is not singing. There is no melody. It is talking, or actually, for the most part, it is angry shouting.

kurt how can you say hip hop promotes racism, how much hip hop have you listened to, to say that. i hate when people turn on the radio one day listen to one song and make a value judgement. have you ever gone to a hip hop concert and seen the diversity of people there; you would be suprised. if anything hip hop has help close the racial gap in younger people. the only people i know that think hip hop promotes racism are older people who dont understand. every generation hates the next generations music. if hip hop is so racist why is that rock which is not thought of as urban has adopted hiphop into there music. how many rock bands now have a dj? why are there so many rock hiphop crossover bands? why is it that most popular pop song have hip hop incorpated into some how?

and not all hip hop speaks of the stuff you said, just like any type of music there's your good and bad. your alway going to have the people that speak negative in any type of music, but you will also have your people that do the opposite also. dont blame hiphop for that blame record companies for promoting that side of hip hop. fact of the matter is it sells to have people talk about negative things, but thats not just hiphop thats everything, have you watched TV lately. the more sex and violence that are promoted the more people tune in , its sad, but its tru. you cant blame hiphop for human nature.

as far as the statement about hiphop being sampling and turntables no real instruments, first off whats your definition of a real instruments i thought an instrument is what ever you use to make music. and second there's alot of hip hop people out there that use "real instruments". im a hip hop & rnb producer i dont sample at all. a matter a fact there are hip hop bands out there the ROOTS are a perfect example. and to the part about hiphop not being sing theres no melody, how many rock records lack melody? how many rock records are just angry shouting?

pretty much what im saying is this, before you go judging a whole genre of music and saying it promotes racism listen to more than a hand full of songs by different artist. dont listen to one or two ignorant artists shit and judge hip hop on that. hip hop is art just like any other music, spoken poetry on top music. O and also you said hiphop doesnt have any singing theres no melody, your wrong, hiphop and rnb are very tightly wooven genres fact of the matter is most hip hop songs have an rnb singer of some type include in the song, whether it be the chorus or somewhere else.

so before you go bad mouthing hiphop consider what i just said

I grew up in Oakland CA. Was one of two white kids in my grade school. I have recorded more hip hop and rap than an Oakland Cop can shake a night stick at in the late 80's, early 90's. I spent 3 years working in a midi based studio.. I know whut I'm talkin' 'bout..

if you know what your talking about how can you make an ignorant comment comment like "hiphop insights racism?"

and also hiphop has evoled from the 80's and early 90's its become alot more musical it has adopted alot more rnb and other genres. most hiphop songs are basiclly rnb with a rapper on it. so are you going to try and tell me rnb isnt music. there alot of very good very musical hiphop albums out now. the roots, and outkast have very well written musical albums out right now. neither of those artist speak of negative things. listen to those albums then tell hip hop is not musical, its not an art form. matter a fact the outkast album even has a song were they do a collaboration with norah jones, are you goin to tell that breeds racism. and last time i checked isnt eminem white? it sounds like your letting where you grew up and bad experiences you may have had bias your views on hip hop.

dont listen to NWA and judge hip hop.

s.
I don't know how to put this in a politically correct way so I will just ask.. Are you white? If you are/ were, I would think you would understand.

It gives crackers, who don't know a lot of black people (they are still out there, believe me) a very bad impression of Afro American culture. There are a lot of educated and upwardly mobile Black professionals who hate it, because of that... They feel it is degradeing, a step backwards and is a poor representation of Black culture. I have to agree. All the pimps and bitches and ho's ... it's degrading to women in general by making it seem all they are good for is dress like a slut and be someones bitch or ho', glorifies teen sex with no limits , ghetto street life style, dropping out of school, drug dealing, living the "large life" and violence instead of preaching that Afro Americans should stand as one and strive to keep their dollars in the Black community and build Black businsess and a better life for all.

There is some that I like a lot. "Where is the Love" is Great. If it were all like that, I would have a different opinion. But from what I see, it's not.

I agree a lot of white kids listen to rap/ hip hop but I think it's because it freaks their parents out more than any other reason..

Hear hear. I to, think it gloryfies the more negative aspects of life.

i can agree with you there, some hip hop is nothing but a bunch of ignorant assholes teaching little kids violence and to degrade women but not all of it. the sad thing is that record companies chise to promote those ignorant assholes. but dont say thats hip hop, its not. its the few jerks who chose hiphop to voice there stupidity. theres alot of rock acts that promote the same thing, but its not rock that the problem its just those acts.

dont throw the baby out with the bath water.

and also im not white, but some of the artist that work with me are and they tell there parents do think like that so i can understand where your coming from

s.

you're fighting a losing battle. The point is, a person's judgement on any matter has a direct relationship on his/her knowledge of the matter.

Those who form judgements on partial knowledge, teeter on the line of ignorance. Those who refuse to inform themselves are immersed in it.

I'm not going through it anymore. It seems like every forum I join, its the same thing. I'm done with the issue.

Kurt,

When was the last time you said gonna? Or ain't? Or....

If I can communicate with another person, then it is a language. I don't care if we're doing underarm farts. Your de-evolution opinion is fine, you're entitled to it, but just remember that it is a language, and that is doesn't spring from ignorance, and it doesn't imply ignorance of its speakers.

mitz

Here's my post from another thread on the topic of Black English, or ebonics.

A great deal of african and african american scholars have produced studies on black english, DECADES before it was coined ebonics. The short of it is:

1. The sentence structure of black america is derived in part from the language structure that african slaves were accustomed to and uprooted from. As an example, dual negatives are common in many native african tongues.

2. Many of the adaptations to words are due to what feels comfortable to say. As an example, a french person speaking english will say za or zee, whereas I might say da or de. A 5 second study into the geographical nomenclature of Africa, reveals an abundance of strong d's and b's

3. Most importantly. Define language:

Communication of thoughts and feelings through a system of arbitrary signals. (Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language)

Any means of conveying or communicating ideas...
Note:Language consists in the oral utterance of sounds which usage has made the representatives of ideas. When two or more persons customarily annex the same sounds to the same ideas, the expression of these sounds by one person communicates his ideas to another. This is the primary sense of language, the use of which is to communicate the thoughts of one person to another through the organs of hearing. Articulate sounds are represented to the eye by letters, marks, or characters, which form words.(Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary)

With this definition, it is easy to see that black english is indeed a viable language, even if you call it ebonics. The only criterion is that it is used to effectively communicate ideas from one person to another.

Originally posted by mitzelplik:
you're fighting a losing battle. The point is, a person's judgement on any matter has a direct relationship on his/her knowledge of the matter.

I agree with this. I was very much in the anti-hip-hop camp until a couple of years ago when a friend of mine showed me how much great stuff there is out there if you just looked beyond what you see on MTV. I was skeptical, but it really opened my eyes.

I listen to hip hop (not exclusively by any means, but I do listen to some). In my world, the concept that hip hop is a racist genre is extremely bizarre. From my perspective, its quite the opposite. Of course, I rarely listen to the radio or watch MTV. Even when I do though, I don't see or hear racism in the music. It's mostly just some guy bragging about his "bling bling". It's vacuous, but really no worse that Brittney Spears or the Backstreet Boys (and I wouldn't condemn all of pop music based on those two acts). I actually find Toby Keith to be *far* more offensive than anything I see in popular hip-hop. And, again, I wouldn't condemn all of country music based on that kind of tripe.

Some people are set in their ways though, and in my experience, its in exercise in frustration to try to convince them to expand their musical boundaries.

For the record, by all outward appearances, I'm about as white as it gets.